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Thud Caldari Mad-Warping-Maniacs	Posted - 2008.10.16 04:34:00 - [1] Edited by: Thud on 16/10/2008 04:35:29 You know what the difference is beetwen a computer game and watching a movie on TV? The main differece is,in a game you are able to change your fate,the story,the outcome of a fight by your actions. Thats what makes it interesting,and thats why its so frustrating if bad game mechhanics take that major part of a game away from you. ECM always was a problem,there were trys to balance it and they all failed,because the main problem,its affect,never was addressed. Ecm either does nothing at all,or it completle shuts you down denying you do deffend yourself in any way. I do not understant why anyone can think a gamemechhanis that alows you to kill an opponent without having to face any resistance would be a good idea in a computer game. Its completle against the idea of an computer game,or any game at all,its like playing soccer with an opponent that isnt allowed to move or do anything. Its just frustrating, i saw it so many times,a small group,maybe just 2 ships jump into a camp expecting to have a fun fight,but what happend is that they just get jammed,cant do anything but watch there ships slowly die. I ask you again,how can anyone think such a thing might be a good idea? Thats why the ecm system needs a change,not a nerv,it needs to be changed into something else,i know that takes effort,the modules need to be changed,the ecm ships need to be changed with them to stay effectiv,but it would make tha game so mutch better. ____ ____ My english is bad.
Thud Caldari Mad-Warping-Maniacs	Posted - 2008.10.16 04:34:00 - [2] Edited by: Thud on 16/10/2008 04:35:29 You know what the difference is beetwen a computer game and watching a movie on TV? The main differece is,in a game you are able to change your fate,the story,the outcome of a fight by your actions. Thats what makes it interesting,and thats why its so frustrating if bad game mechhanics take that major part of a game away from you. ECM always was a problem,there were trys to balance it and they all failed,because the main problem,its affect,never was addressed. Ecm either does nothing at all,or it completle shuts you down denying you do deffend yourself in any way. I do not understant why anyone can think a gamemechhanis that alows you to kill an opponent without having to face any resistance would be a good idea in a computer game. Its completle against the idea of an computer game,or any game at all,its like playing soccer with an opponent that isnt allowed to move or do anything. Its just frustrating, i saw it so many times,a small group,maybe just 2 ships jump into a camp expecting to have a fun fight,but what happend is that they just get jammed,cant do anything but watch there ships slowly die. I ask you again,how can anyone think such a thing might be a good idea? Thats why the ecm system needs a change,not a nerv,it needs to be changed into something else,i know that takes effort,the modules need to be changed,the ecm ships need to be changed with them to stay effectiv,but it would make tha game so mutch better. ____ ____ My english is bad.
Fenix Zealot Caldari Aeon Of Strife DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.10.16 04:58:00 - [3] perhaps one of those 2 campers needs to be in a falcon En Taro Adun!
Vengal Seyhan Sten Industries	Posted - 2008.10.16 05:46:00 - [4] Huginn with damps fitted will shut you down just as effectively. Lost a Salvage Cyclone once to a Huginn and Falcon - Webbed and scrammed and damped on the gate. Bumped further away, and then pecked to death. The Falcon spent most of his time cloaked at 100km, ready to ECM anyone that came to my rescue. It took me eight minutes to die, during which time I could do nothing to shoot at all. The only reason I stayed in front of the PC to watch was to ask for help in intel channel, and be ready to spam the warp button to get my pod out. I would have gone and made a cup of tea otherwise. It was the longest combat I've ever been part of in Eve - so I guess, by some measure, that the Eve devs succeeded in their goal of making combat less transitory. :D Hardly a unique experience I'd assume... Eve is full of situations where you can't effectively retaliate.
Marlona Sky Caldari Astroglide X	Posted - 2008.10.16 05:53:00 - [5] They need to boost ECCM already. The days of soloing in low sec is dead until they do something where you have somewhat of a chance. This is like before the first nano nerf. Everyone had to start training up rapier alts or whatever just to be able to fight. Now you need a falcon to jam their falcon. Its just plain silly now.
Thud Caldari Mad-Warping-Maniacs	Posted - 2008.10.16 14:59:00 - [6] Originally by: Vengal Seyhan Huginn with damps fitted will shut you down just as effectively. Yes,since the damps have them same "eather they dont do nothing at all,or your shut down completle" idea behind it they do need a change as well. My idea is,there should be no situation where your not able to do anything,cos thats against the idea of a game. I think the Tracking disruptor is a good model for a ew system like it should be,it does weaken the ship its used on,but it does not shut it down completle,it can still shoot and if it manages to get transversal down enough it can even hit. i remember a fight against a pilgrim in my geddon,was pretty close,i could not hit mutch,but his damage wasnt good of course,in the end it was a damn close fight,ending in structure,the kind of fight that get the adrenalin pumping. But imagine the same with ECM instead,you just sit there,jammed by ecm ship while another one takes you down,you cant do anything,its just boring. ____ ____ My english is bad.
Kaahles Jion Keanturi Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2008.10.16 15:18:00 - [7] EVE is a multiplayer game, which includes that you've the most success with gangs. Most of all gangs of mixed ships. If you want to solo around stop complaining about ecm or use an ecm ship yourself. If you fly around in gangs and you don't have any counters for ecm boats like the Falcon, then sir, you failed epic in building a successfull and balanced gang. counters for falcons are easy. Bring your own ecm ship(s). And for all bring some interceptors, especailly after the speed nerf they become essential in every roaming ops. A Falcon is far off the battle but slow and vulnerably. Such a ship with only 3 missile launchers just can't stand against 2-4 of those ships. Problem solved. Okay maybe a slight increase in the eccm's would be nice but it is not essential. If you lack of tactical understanding, creativity, skills and compentency don't cry for a nerf o_O I don't whine all around the forums because my POS got busted by a bunch of dreads. It's game mechanics god damn it.
Adaera	Posted - 2008.10.16 16:41:00 - [8] Edited by: Adaera on 16/10/2008 16:42:16 One thing I'm wondering is; what precisely is it that you want nerfed? ECM or the Falcon? Just that I'm not seeing too many nerf threads about the Blackbird or Scorpion, why is that? Having said that, as a (fairly newbie I admit) ECM pilot, I think the whole system should be overhauled - in particular the luck based element, which allows the scenarios of being perma jammed, or the jammers doing absolutely nothing. I'd actually love it if they revamped the system into something less powerful but more predictable and above all more enjoyable (for both sides of the fight) Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Chi Quan Perkone	Posted - 2008.10.16 18:12:00 - [9] yea, it's the feeling that you can't do anything that is most annoying about ecm, no matter how low the chance. but that's the way it is. there ARE however counters, drones and FoFs. some ships are better with this some, some are not (amar laser boats come to mind) ---- You don't have to like it - I don't blame you for not liking it.
Straight Chillen Gallente Solar Wind	Posted - 2008.10.16 19:45:00 - [10] I strongly believe that ECM will be the next thing hit by the nerf bat. I know too many people who have made alts specifically to fly falcons, so its already safe it say its the fotm, just not one many whine about. Personally I think it bullshit that all other forms of EWAR was hit so hard with the script changes, where as ECM wasnt even touched. IMO they should have to choose between jamming range and jamming power. A falcon 230km out should not be able to nullify battleships with the ease it does so today. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Lord EmBra Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.16 20:10:00 - [11] I agree with the OP for the same reasons. ECM is the most boring feature in the game atm, not only for the victim, how fun is it engaging a ship that can't hit back. And drones as counter isn't enough, they are easily killed, atleast missileboats have fof missiles, turret based ships have nothing nearly effective enough. and eccm is a joke as it is today.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.16 20:16:00 - [12] ECM is effective but also available to everybody....but hey why bring a well rounded gang with ECM and damps when you can keep pestering ccp to nerf anything that can beat your gang of ratting ships.
Lord EmBra Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.16 20:29:00 - [13] Originally by: Murina ECM is effective but also available to everybody.... So you think that there is never a reason to change anything ever? since, you know... the overpowered stuff is always available to everybody?
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.16 20:38:00 - [14] Edited by: Murina on 16/10/2008 20:40:20 Originally by: Murina ECM is effective but also available to everybody....but hey why bring a well rounded gang with ECM and damps when you can keep pestering ccp to nerf anything that can beat your gang of ratting ships. Originally by: Lord EmBra So you think that there is never a reason to change anything ever? If i thought that id post that, instead if you look i tend to support and promote additions that increase the need for skill and team work to counter a problem instead of just screaming immediately for a nerf. Nerfing is summat i am totally against especially when a counter is available to all if they use a little bit of forethought, teamwork and the various items in the game well and correctly. Long range ECM ships are easily countered by having a few damps in your gang but as per usual ppl are looking to nerf anything that they cannot counter in their favorite ratting setup instead of having versatile pvp fitted ships ready and waiting in their hangar.
Thud Caldari Mad-Warping-Maniacs	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:18:00 - [15] Funny how tha few pro ecm guys always bring the same argument. "bring more ships" bring own falcons,bring anti falcon snipers,bring nano ships to burn for the ecm. So,basically what you try to tell me is,its my own fault if i dont blob enough? I do wanna fly solo sometimes,or in small gangs of 2 or 3 people. and i know i will die often if i do so,but i dont mind as long as the fights are fun,but as soon as ecm is involved they are no fun anymore,they are no fights at all anymore,its boring and frustrating. I do understant that many people who only fly arround in big gangs dont see the problem,cos the bigger the gang the less the effect of ecm. But for solo and small gang warfare ecm is a real problem and a reason why less and less people enjoy it. Also,my main argument in my post was that the system behind ecm is boring,bringing own falcons to have even more people in the fight that cant do mutch more than watch¦doesnt change that. ____ ____ My english is bad.
Gavin Darklighter THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:31:00 - [16] The best change for ECM would be to remove it from the game. signature picture exceeds the size limit.~WeatherMan
Estrid Lochlannach Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:37:00 - [17] Originally by: Murina Long range ECM ships are easily countered by having a few damps in your gang but as per usual ppl are looking to nerf anything that they cannot counter in their favorite ratting setup instead of having versatile pvp fitted ships ready and waiting in their hangar. Damps doesn't work vs. long range ships. They don't have the range.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:41:00 - [18] Edited by: Murina on 16/10/2008 21:41:59 Originally by: Thud Funny how tha few pro ecm guys always bring the same argument. "bring more ships" bring own falcons,bring anti falcon snipers,bring nano ships to burn for the ecm. it. I am sure i said bring a versatile gang not more ships, and yes considering theirs EWAR available to all players in the game it is your fault for not having one of the many counters available to you fitted to a ship in your gang. Why should summat with several counters to it be removed or nerfed to uselessness just because you wanna fly solo or in gangs of 2 or 3?. Here is a 3 man gang setup for ya: 1 x raven Top slots = cruise and a nuet. Mids = mwd, sensor booster and damps. Lows =LAR, 1600 plate or istab (your choice), dmg mods. 1x good tackler with 1 damp. (post speed nerf i doubt you will find one worth using in a small hull) 1 x logistic ship. Apart from a set of 3 RR BS theirs not much if anything that can match you with equal numbers. Even a gang with a long range ecm ship can have it damped and if it comes in close FOF will own it.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:43:00 - [19] Originally by: Estrid Lochlannach Originally by: Murina Long range ECM ships are easily countered by having a few damps in your gang but as per usual ppl are looking to nerf anything that they cannot counter in their favorite ratting setup instead of having versatile pvp fitted ships ready and waiting in their hangar. Damps doesn't work vs. long range ships. They don't have the range. Only if you stay at long range.
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:09:00 - [20] The problem is not that ECM isn't counterable - it is, with various tricks, all of them pretty much specialized for ECM - it's that ECM boats are in a completely different class than any other ship. No other (subcapital) ship will turn the tide of a small fight like a Falcon will. Nice lowsec scrap, 4 vs. 4 - if one side has a Falcon and the other is not specifically set up to counter the Falcon (and that basically means to bring a Falcon of their own), the side with the Falcon will win. No other ship has this massive effect. Small engagements are totally dominated by ECM. Real example. We engage a Sleipnir + Hurricane with Typhoon + Rapier. Hostiles decloak a Falcon - no chance to do anything anymore, even with ECCM on the ships. No other single (sub-capital) ship would have affected that fight this drastically. Arguing that Falcons are "not uncounterable", are not "solopwnmobiles", "have their drawbacks", etc. all is pretty much irrelevant if no other ship in that class (or actually, any sub-capital class) has that kind of effect. This applies to other ECM ships as well, but the Falcon is out of proportion even compared to other ECM ships. On the other side, there is no real "good" counter to ECM. Damps and snipers can work unless it's a small engagement and the Falcon just jams everyone. ECCM doesn't work too well (dedicated Falcon can only jam 2-3 ships instead of 4-5, great if you only have 2-3 ships; and you still lose half your ships in smaller engagements, turning the tide of battle tremendously). The best counter to a Falcon is a Falcon of your own. If we target a hostile group, we by now have a list of their capital pilots and their Falcon pilots, because any engagement will just go down the drain if one side brings a Falcon and the other does not. The problem with balancing ECM ships is that they (apparently) are quite ok in large fights the way they are - they work as damage reduction, not as a full incapacitating of the enemy. In small engagements, they are ridiculously powerful force multipliers. The balancing therefore needs to work in a way that does not break the ECM ships for fleet fights, but reduces their effectiveness in small-scale engagements. ECM effectiveness in small scale engagements is so ridiculously strong because they can more or less disable a ship (actually, multiple ships) - in large scale engagements, it's not so much about disabling specific ships completely, but about jamming some ships. So one solution to go for would be to reduce the probability of ECM to jam a ship that was jammed shortly before. One way to achieve that would be to increase a ship's sensor strength for some time after a successful jam (amount of increase and duration for the increase would need to be balanced). This would mean that a single Falcon decloaking won't mean most of your small fleet is disabled completely for the whole fight, but the ECM ships can cycle through hostile ships in a larger fight with just the same amount of efficiency as right now. Not sure whether the EVE engine can do that, though :-)
Thud Caldari Mad-Warping-Maniacs	Posted - 2008.10.16 23:55:00 - [21] Originally by: Arkady Sadik The problem is not that ECM isn't counterable - it is, with various tricks, all of them pretty much specialized for ECM - it's that ECM boats are in a completely different class than any other ship. No other (subcapital) ship will turn the tide of a small fight like a Falcon will. I agree completle. Still,i dont think that a complete new system is needet,as mentioned bevore,i just think the whole "you cant lock" effect is a problem and always will be a problem,as long as ECm has that kind of effect it will never be realy balanced. ____ ____ My english is bad.
Tiberius Maddox	Posted - 2008.10.17 00:48:00 - [22] Well, the OP does have a point. ECM should be a valid combat multiplier, but it should never be an "I win" button. It comes dangerously close to that it its current form.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities	Posted - 2008.10.17 01:20:00 - [23] Originally by: Adaera Having said that, as a (fairly newbie I admit) ECM pilot, I think the whole system should be overhauled - in particular the luck based element, (..) It's chance-based, not luck based. Luck is involved, yes, but so are many other things in EVE one way or the other. Being primaried or not, having a disconnect or not, being spotted and pursued or not. Reallife itself is based on chance or luck in many many regards, and since EVE tries to be somewhat realistic, I see no problem ECM being a bit too powerful atm is a different pair of shoes. I could agree to less powerful and more predictable. But simply shorter range or a handful more counters would also do. ___________________________________ Balance is power, ~~guard~~ hide it well "Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam"
Kiki Arnolds Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.17 03:08:00 - [24] To the OP, at 100KM how much damage did the falcon do? 0? Thats right, a falcon is a one act show... Which is the problem with balancing the falcon, it does only one thing, and therefor must do it really well. All other recons, and most ships are hybrids to varying extent... most recons can be nanoed, do dps, and have their recony ability, all at the same time. The falcon can jam... thats it... you try to set the falcon up to do anything else but be a dedicated jammer your a fool...whats needed is not an outright nerf to the falcon, but a shift, to make it effective at several roles, while making it less effective when dedicated to the one... ç¦
Zee87 Minmatar Black Lancers	Posted - 2008.10.17 03:11:00 - [25] Originally by: Thud Edited by: Thud on 16/10/2008 04:35:29Ecm either does nothing at all,or it completle shuts you down denying you do deffend yourself in any way. This is not completely true... FoF missiles can fire without having a target locked. They usually go for the closest enemy target. They don't do as much damage as non-FoF missiles, but they are still a good defense against being ECM'ed.
Thud Caldari Mad-Warping-Maniacs	Posted - 2008.10.17 05:47:00 - [26] Only missile ships can fit fof,and even not all of them,torp raven cant. Also,without the ability too chose the target,there worth is limited. ____ ____ My english is bad.
Commander Spectre The Funkstars Guild	Posted - 2008.10.17 05:53:00 - [27] ECM was allready nerfed...and nerfed quite well I might add. A long time ago in the revelations patch they nerfed it because any ship could fit a single jammer and had a pretty good chance of jamming you. It wasn't a chance based module back then either instead it just depended on your skills. Back then a Scorpion was a very welcomed, and usfull addition to your gang. There were no ECM drones or Falcon. But people complained and now the Scorpion is a pretty usless ship. ECM multispecs had up to 4.4 sensor jamming strength and racial jammers had up to 9. So with the nerf the only ships that can even use jammers effectivley are the falcon, rook, and to a much lesser degree, a blackbird. These ships are much easier to kill now than a scorp was. Then they nerfed ECM even more by making the jamming strength about 75% less on all the ECM modules. They added the signal distortion amplifiers which take up a low slot making falcons and rooks about the only ship you'd want to use for ECM. So really if they nerfed ECM much more it would just be totally usless. ECM is much more of a Caldari thing now than it used to be. So if you take it out of the game you's have to take out target painters, webs, sensor dampners, warp scrams, and weapon disrutors just to obtain the all important "Balance" CCP loves so much and this would make all the other races EW ships usless. Force recons would just be expensive and weak cruisers and no one would even use them anymore. So to cry cuz you got jammmed is kinda silly to me. It's part of the game and without it many pilots who spent the time to train the skills and ships to even use it, like me who spent alotta skill points on ECM only to have it nerfed all to hell, would be rather upset. So either spend the time to skill them or something to counter them with, or bring an experienced pilot along to hold your hand while you travel in the scarey non-high sec areas of eve. If you don't like being jammed, scrammed, webbed, target painted, weapon disrupted, sensor damped, energy nuetralized, or shot at then maybe you should stick to high-sec untill you learn how to deal with all those things. Don't go asking for nerfs on stuff you haven't bothered to skill up cuz alot of people have and it's not fair to them that you come along and get to make all thier time and effort usless because you are too lazy to do what they did and train your character.
Malik Mantille Minmatar Dark Sun Collective	Posted - 2008.10.17 06:29:00 - [28] yeah since ECCM doesn't work. I mean pvp is partly intel, if you know they're running ECM, fit ECCM modules.. fixed it for ya. ------
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.10.17 06:37:00 - [29] ECM is not overpowered because Falcons don't do dps Irrelevant argument. Damage is not everything. In small-scale engagements, Falcons reduce hostile dps to a very small minimum. This is much more effective than bringing another dps ship. As mentioned above. ECM is not overpowered because it has been nerfed a lot before Irrelevant argument. How much something has been nerfed is absolutely unrelated to whether it is overpowered or not. Also, you forgot to mention the recent ECM boosts. ECM is not overpowered because you can fit ECCM Please read the posts above about the problems of ECCM. Hell, in a BS+Falcon vs. 2xBS fight, we had the two Tempests with two ECCM each jammed by the Falcon, both, almost lost one Tempest, and the target BS could warp out. So in a 2vs2, fitting specifically to counter the ECM side results in a draw, possible loss, instead of a certain loss. No, that's not balanced.
Malik Mantille Minmatar Dark Sun Collective	Posted - 2008.10.17 07:28:00 - [30] I assume he was using racial jammers. Perhaps having two ships not of the same race? as well, remote ECCM on some other ships to join you? it's a tactic, evolve. ------
Ming Tari	Posted - 2008.10.17 08:50:00 - [31] First thing. Yes, I'm a noob, but I might have a decent idea. Perhaps the answer isn't to remove ECM/ECCM, but to rebalance the system and make a few tweaks. In games I've played of this type, ECM didn't completely nulify lock ons, but made the the hit rate rate much lower and less damaging. ECCM was to counter ECM by reducing the effectivness of the ECM but not nulifying it. In a skill and gear based system like Eve, there's great potential to make E-War viable without it being an deciding factor for the small scale player, or an inconvenience to the large scale player.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.17 09:04:00 - [32] Edited by: Murina on 17/10/2008 09:12:51 Originally by: Arkady Sadik ECM is not overpowered because Falcons don't do dps Irrelevant argument. Damage is not everything. In small-scale engagements, Falcons reduce hostile dps to a very small minimum. This is much more effective than bringing another dps ship. As mentioned above. Then be smart enough to bring your own ewar, the excuse "BUT I WANNA KILL THINGS WITHOUT ECM OR A BALANCED AND WELL ROUNDED GANG" is the worst reason to nerf anything. Why should CCP keep removing things from the game just because you do not wanna use it or counter it in your little circle jerk gangs?. Its available to everybody so are the counters so if you choose not to use it or bring the counters that's your freakin problem not the games or ECM.
Malik Mantille Minmatar Dark Sun Collective	Posted - 2008.10.17 09:28:00 - [33] or have you a stealthly lil bomber ready to blast the hell outta the ecm ship... a few cruise missiles make short work...they leave or die...and you don't have ecm on yer arse. ------
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.10.17 09:33:00 - [34] I love these topics ... Now where did I miss the important part of the OP, namely the NEW SYSTEM SUGGESTION with details of the new mechanics ? Right ... there is none ... Don't bother to post when you only want to complain ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Jaredh Elkin Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.10.17 10:12:00 - [35] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 17/10/2008 09:46:53 Originally by: Arkady Sadik ECM is not overpowered because Falcons don't do dps Irrelevant argument. Damage is not everything. In small-scale engagements, Falcons reduce hostile dps to a very small minimum. This is much more effective than bringing another dps ship. As mentioned above. Then be smart enough to bring your own ewar or counter, the excuse "BUT I WANNA KILL THINGS WITHOUT ECM OR A BALANCED AND WELL ROUNDED GANG" is the worst reason to nerf anything. Why should CCP keep removing things from the game just because you do not wanna use it or counter it in your little circle jerk gangs?. Its available to everybody so are the counters so if you choose not to use it or bring the counters that's your freakin problem not the games or ECM. Well, they did use the proper ECM counter: ECCM. It doesn't work very well. In my point of view, having to have that Falcon in your gang is pretty bad design. There's no other support ship type you almost absolutely need to have your gang to counter the opposition's ship. No need to bring Huginns because the other side has them, no need to bring Curses because the other side has them, but you really need that Falcon to counter one. There should be no need to have always that one kind of support with you. Tank and gank you need in some amount to do anything in a combat gang, but ECM seems just a tad too powerful to me. Disclaimer, I own a Falcon, never really flew it but even the Blackbird I've flown has been very good and useful.
Commander Spectre The Funkstars Guild	Posted - 2008.10.17 10:31:00 - [36] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 17/10/2008 09:46:53 Originally by: Arkady Sadik ECM is not overpowered because Falcons don't do dps Irrelevant argument. Damage is not everything. In small-scale engagements, Falcons reduce hostile dps to a very small minimum. This is much more effective than bringing another dps ship. As mentioned above. Then be smart enough to bring your own ewar or counter, the excuse "BUT I WANNA KILL THINGS WITHOUT ECM OR A BALANCED AND WELL ROUNDED GANG" is the worst reason to nerf anything. Why should CCP keep removing things from the game just because you do not wanna use it or counter it in your little circle jerk gangs?. Its available to everybody so are the counters so if you choose not to use it or bring the counters that's your freakin problem not the games or ECM. EXACTLY RIGHT! EVE is a MMO game. If you do not wish to play with others then you should be playing a single player game. The whole concept of EVE is to organize with others and build a strong corp/alliance and go kick butt. Just because you don't want to learn/use other players to devolop a good stratgy is no reason to nerf people that do. Everything in EVE has a counter. What you need to do is figure it out for your self or learn from others. You are not going to beat a gang of people all by yourself, (with exeption of a very well skilled and experienced player taking on a few n00bs), so do not expect to use the devs to help you even the odds against a gang of skilled vets by crying for a nerf. That's not at all a reasonable expectation.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.10.17 11:14:00 - [37] Edited by: The Djego on 17/10/2008 11:14:33 Originally by: Commander Spectre Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 17/10/2008 09:46:53 Originally by: Arkady Sadik ECM is not overpowered because Falcons don't do dps Irrelevant argument. Damage is not everything. In small-scale engagements, Falcons reduce hostile dps to a very small minimum. This is much more effective than bringing another dps ship. As mentioned above. Then be smart enough to bring your own ewar or counter, the excuse "BUT I WANNA KILL THINGS WITHOUT ECM OR A BALANCED AND WELL ROUNDED GANG" is the worst reason to nerf anything. Why should CCP keep removing things from the game just because you do not wanna use it or counter it in your little circle jerk gangs?. Its available to everybody so are the counters so if you choose not to use it or bring the counters that's your freakin problem not the games or ECM. EXACTLY RIGHT! EVE is a MMO game. If you do not wish to play with others then you should be playing a single player game. The whole concept of EVE is to organize with others and build a strong corp/alliance and go kick butt. Just because you don't want to learn/use other players to devolop a good stratgy is no reason to nerf people that do. Everything in EVE has a counter. What you need to do is figure it out for your self or learn from others. You are not going to beat a gang of people all by yourself, (with exeption of a very well skilled and experienced player taking on a few n00bs), so do not expect to use the devs to help you even the odds against a gang of skilled vets by crying for a nerf. That's not at all a reasonable expectation. So solo or small scale PVP is not playing with/or against other players? Yust because a Falcon is not a Problem against a 20 Player Blob it dosn¦t mean it¦s ok against a solo Pilote or 2-3 Ships trying to get a good fight. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.17 11:29:00 - [38] Edited by: Murina on 17/10/2008 11:30:00 Originally by: The Djego So solo or small scale PVP is not playing with/or against other players? Yust because a Falcon is not a Problem against a 20 Player Blob it dosn¦t mean it¦s ok against a solo Pilote or 2-3 Ships trying to get a good fight. A 3 man gang fitted one dimensionally and without a varied and versatile setup that includes ewar or at least a counter to it loses to a 3 man gang setup with a good balance of ships and fittings including ewar modules and you think that is imbalanced?. Ecm or any ewar is a benefit to any gang with the sense to bring some and if another gang is stupid and chooses not to bring any why should that be reason for a nerf?. I am getting kinda sick of this "ratting fits should pwn all" attitude ppl are trying to palm off as "balance" tbh.
Research Rachel	Posted - 2008.10.17 11:38:00 - [39] for the love of god.. ccp, please nerf the WoW people! seriously, you kids need to stop whining just because you lose a ship. A falcon has no dps, can be countered sooo easily not just with other recons but with ceptors or bs snipers. The fact you are unable to think for yourself (hence why people whine for nerf's) just goes to show you shouldn't be playing eve! Nothing wrong with ECM, it's YOU that needs Nerf'ing!
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.10.17 11:41:00 - [40] Edited by: The Djego on 17/10/2008 11:42:32 Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 17/10/2008 11:30:00 Originally by: The Djego So solo or small scale PVP is not playing with/or against other players? Yust because a Falcon is not a Problem against a 20 Player Blob it dosn¦t mean it¦s ok against a solo Pilote or 2-3 Ships trying to get a good fight. A 3 man gang fitted one dimensionally and without a varied and versatile setup that includes ewar or at least a counter to it loses to a 3 man gang setup with a good balance of ships and fittings including ewar modules and you think that is imbalanced?. Ecm or any ewar is a benefit to any gang with the sense to bring some and if another gang is stupid and chooses not to bring any why should that be reason for a nerf?. Since bring a Falcon makes the 3 man gang ballanced? No. It makes it better in any way to any other Gang 3 People Gang without one Falcon. Originally by: Murina I am getting kinda sick of this "ratting fits should pwn all" attitude ppl are trying to palm off as "balance" tbh. Try again, try better, does Tri has a standarted "Insult others with *** if you running out of arguments!" prase selection or your people simply to stupid to come up with something new since you can read this in every single ing post. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by:** Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.17 11:51:00 - [41] Edited by: Murina on 17/10/2008 11:55:14 Originally by: The Djego Since bring a Falcon makes the 3 man gang balanced? No. It makes it better in any way to any other Gang 3 People Gang without one Falcon. So a gang with ewar is better than a gang without ewar?...yup but then it should be as its a better and more versatile setup gang ffs. Wtf is wrong with that?... what sort of one dimensional gang without ewar do you think should beat a mixed gang with ewar?.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.10.17 11:58:00 - [42] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 17/10/2008 11:55:14 Originally by: The Djego Since bring a Falcon makes the 3 man gang balanced? No. It makes it better in any way to any other Gang 3 People Gang without one Falcon. So a gang with ewar is better than a gang without ewar?...yup but then it should be as its a better and more versatile setup gang ffs. Wtf is wrong with that?... what sort of one dimensional gang without ewar do you think should beat a mixed gang with ewar?. One ship to counter 2-3 ships, don¦t matter mutch about the fitting and the ship type if it¦s not a Falcon? Nothing wrong with this, ofc not. So Amarr, Mini or Gallente Recons don¦t offer EW, since they don¦t do a simlar job? ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.17 12:03:00 - [43] Edited by: Murina on 17/10/2008 12:05:40 Originally by: The Djego blah blah nerf nerf Your great at bleating on and talking crap about nerfs and balance but lets hear how you think things should be instead of your usual crying about nerfs for things anybody can use and counter. SO:- What sort of one dimensional gang without ewar do you think should beat a mixed gang with ewar?. (EQUAL NUMBERS OF COURSE) Gonna answer?.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.10.17 12:11:00 - [44] Edited by: The Djego on 17/10/2008 12:14:40 Edited by: The Djego on 17/10/2008 12:11:54 Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 17/10/2008 12:05:40 Originally by: The Djego blah blah nerf nerf Your great at bleating on and talking crap about nerfs and balance but lets hear how you think things should be instead of your usual crying about nerfs for things anybody can use and counter. SO:- What sort of one dimensional gang without ewar do you think should beat a mixed gang with ewar?. (EQUAL NUMBERS OF COURSE) Gonna answer?. So out of resonalbe awnsers allready, starting to give the Tri Insult phrase selction Try NR. 2 allready? Try harder pls, at least here don¦t mind S&M. And a mixed gang vs a one dimensional Gang well, bring 2 Recons(non Falcons) and a BS vs 2 BCs and 1 BS well here comes a nice fight, depending on may things like Fittings and Shiptypes, Weapons, RR, Cap Warefare, Range, Speed, Tactics. Bring a Falcon + 2 Ships with some DPS against the 3 Ship gang without a Falcon and you will have in 90% of all cases a very boring one sidet fight. So whats op EW in general or just Falcons in small scale PVP? ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Karjala Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.17 12:23:00 - [45] How about not starting threads about stuff before you get a clue :/
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.17 12:37:00 - [46] Edited by: Murina on 17/10/2008 12:40:03 Originally by: The Djego So out of reasonable answers already, starting to give the Tri Insult phrase selection Try NR. 2 already? Try harder pls, at least here don¦t mind S&M. I am not a member of tri and Ive got no interest in insulting ppl, but if they feel insulted by the truth that is their problem not mine. Originally by: The Djego Blah blah static slug fest depending on may things like Fittings and Shiptypes, Weapons, RR, Cap Warefare, Range, Speed, Tactics. "I dunno" would have covered it, their was no need for a example of how little you know about pvp. Here is a hint: Unless you were jumping into a 3 man gate camp where the falcon was already setup at range a simple damp would make it a worthless paper thin target with shag all dps. Every recon has bonuses for a aspect of pvp, and some are better than others at certain aspects that is called variation. ECM/ships = Good in gang combat at long range but worthless in close or solo. Web/TP/ships = Great tacklers if the stupid nano nerf is prevented, can also be used solo. Damps/scram/ships = I find damps to be the most versatile of the ewar systems and the most effective when on non damp bonused ships, can also be used solo. Nuets//ships = The best ewar ship for close range small gang fighting when supported, can also be used solo. Nuets are also great and highly effective when fitted on BS. Notice how the ECM ship has only one bonus?, notice how its only any use if its at very long range, notice how its useless solo, notice how the others all have a niche in the game just like ECM ships, notice how all of them can operate solo unlike the falcon?.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.10.17 13:01:00 - [47] Edited by: The Djego on 17/10/2008 13:07:19 Edited by: The Djego on 17/10/2008 13:02:59 Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 17/10/2008 12:40:03 Originally by: The Djego So out of reasonable answers already, starting to give the Tri Insult phrase selection Try NR. 2 already? Try harder pls, at least here don¦t mind S&M. I am not a member of tri and Ive got no interest in insulting ppl, but if they feel insulted by the truth that is their problem not mine. Originally by: The Djego Blah blah static slug fest depending on may things like Fittings and Shiptypes, Weapons, RR, Cap Warefare, Range, Speed, Tactics. "I dunno" would have covered it, their was no need for a example of how little you know about pvp. Here is a hint: Unless you were jumping into a 3 man gate camp where the falcon was already setup at range a simple damp would make it a worthless paper thin target with shag all dps. Every recon has bonuses for a aspect of pvp, and some are better than others at certain aspects that is called variation. ECM/ships = Good in gang combat at long range but worthless in close or solo. Web/TP/ships = Great tacklers if the stupid nano nerf is prevented, can also be used solo. Damps/scram/ships = I find damps to be the most versatile of the ewar systems and the most effective when on non damp bonused ships, can also be used solo. Nuets//ships = The best ewar ship for close range small gang fighting when supported, can also be used solo. Nuets are also great and highly effective when fitted on BS. Notice how the ECM ship has only one bonus?, notice how its only any use if its at very long range, notice how its useless solo, notice how the others all have a niche in the game just like ECM ships, notice how all of them can operate solo unlike the falcon?. Well you was a Member of Tri and you sound just like the standard Tri Forum poster. You don¦t have to tell me about the other EW ships, I know how they work but I think it is amusing you can¦t say anything to counter my little example. ECM Ships are useless solo? True. But other Recons can¦t do mutch behind a solo kill of a Target that is usaly preaty helpless aginst her Ewar or is a Noob. A Rapier/Huggin deathtrap to smaller ships or Nano Fittings, not mutch of a Problem for a BS or BC(if not fitted with Blasters). A Pilgram/Curse, deathtrap for a Ship that uses Cap to fire/tank/MWD, not mutch of a Problem for a Passive Tank. Unanoed it will have some problems agains BC/BS that get better hit chances then. And just lol for calling Damps effective, If you stick a ECM on any ship instad of a Damp you will have better results, 2007 is over mkay. And don¦t get me started on Gallente Recons. So to simply put it in your posting style: So blablabla I only know how PVP works with a Nano Gang, all people that do other kind of PVP are noobs ignore them I know everything better than them!!! Falcons are balanced/not a problem for my PVP style, so they are not a problem at all. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Jack Gilligan THE MuPPeT FaCTOrY KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.17 13:10:00 - [48] Great, another "nerf falcons" thread. The Falcon is the only Caldari T2 ship that is worth a damn in gang warfare, the rest being too slow or are missile boats or rail boats that are meant for sniping not gang warfare. My interceptors are going to be worthless after this next patch, and you want my force recon too? My opinions are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my corp or alliance.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.17 13:15:00 - [49] Originally by: The Djego i should read my own crap. You clearly point out that all recons have niche types of ship that they can kill solo and cannot kill, while also pointing out that a falcon can do nothing solo?. Falcons are great for using in small gang combat, IF they are in a static camp and IF they can start at 200km away, for anything else they are a weak target with worthless dps and 0 tank. Oh and damps are great when used in a gang, just ask burn eden they fit them on ravens to great effect.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.10.17 13:31:00 - [50] Originally by: Murina Originally by: The Djego i should read my own crap. You clearly point out that all recons have niche types of ship that they can kill solo and cannot kill, while also pointing out that a falcon can do nothing solo?. Falcons are great for using in small gang combat, IF they are in a static camp and IF they can start at 200km away, for anything else they are a weak target with worthless dps and 0 tank. Oh and damps are great when used in a gang, just ask burn eden they fit them on ravens to great effect. Never heard of pre made jamming spots? The Falcon Tank is irrelevant if you can¦t hit them, in this kind of fights that I used in my example. Any Falcon Pilote that dies, get caugt in a gate camp, got lag, is a to stupid to warp out/cloak/jamm Tacklers or get supriced by another covert Ops cloaked recon(funny but thrue the best use for a Arazu this days is to warp in cloaked and try to get a Falcon kill, again preaty mutch useless agianst mutliply Falcons). And nobody brings a Recon to a fight for DPS(btw the Falcon could actualy do Damage but he is usaly behind the range of his own weapons), just lol. You still didn¦t have any point against that the Falcon is not better by a infinite amout in any samll scale PVP situation than any other Recon(asuming not to catch Nanos but hey you can scare them off you allready won acording to Tri logic I think). BE uses Damps on Sniping Setups, not realy usefull in anything behind that. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Odessima Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.10.17 13:48:00 - [51] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 17/10/2008 13:22:50 Originally by: The Djego i should read my own crap. You clearly point out that all recons have niche types of ship that they can kill solo and cannot kill, while also pointing out that a falcon can do nothing solo?. Falcons are great for using in small gang combat, IF they are in a static camp and IF they can start at 200km away, for anything else they are a weak target with worthless dps and 0 tank. Oh and damps are great when used in a gang, just ask burn eden they fit them on ravens to great effect. PS: you think i am not answering you post but i am i just know that the falcon is useless at everything apart from 200km jamming, take that away and what have you got?. As per usual your taking a very niched ship and applying the stats with eft instead of actual combat scenarios or you would know how useless it is at everything other than one specific and HIGHLY LIMITED role.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.17 13:59:00 - [52] Originally by: The Djego Never heard of pre made jamming spots? The Falcon Tank is irrelevant if you can¦t hit them, in this kind of fights that I used in my example. Oh i did not realize that for the falcon to be overpowered you needed pre made jamming spots made and it needed to be fighting ships without range........ Originally by: The Djego Any Falcon Pilot that dies, get caught in a gate camp, is a to stupid to warp out/cloak/jam Tacklers So in a 3 vs 3 fight the falcon jumps through with his buddies and needs to cloak or be primaried, he then needs to warp away (if no bubble) turn around and warp back at range (if no bubble or if he has pre made sniping BM's) and then he can start jamming against hopefully ships without long range if he has a BM or med range if he warps back at 100km?. And if the fight is not already over from all that warping off and coming back lol..... Originally by: The Djego BE uses Damps on Sniping Setups, not really useful in anything behind that. They use damps for varied reasons, some to deal with ranged dps ships, or ranged ewar ships, some to make tacklers come close enough to nuet...ect ect like i say its still a versatile module when used by experienced players.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.17 14:11:00 - [53] Edited by: Murina on 17/10/2008 14:14:51 So to recap falcons/ecm are overpowered in very small gangs as long as: 1. You have sniping BM's in every area of system you fight in. 2. You are not in a bubble or you will need to cloak or get melted. 3. If your at 200km away to start with. 4. There is a very very short warp away point you can do a turn around at and warp back at 100km if you do not have a 200km BM. 5. If the fight is not over by the time you get back. 6. If the opposing gang cannot hit at 200km or 100 if no BM. Anything else you need for these uber gang killing ships of destruction need to be effective?.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.10.17 14:24:00 - [54] Originally by: Murina Originally by: The Djego Never heard of pre made jamming spots? The Falcon Tank is irrelevant if you can¦t hit them, in this kind of fights that I used in my example. Oh i did not realize that for the falcon to be overpowered you needed pre made jamming spots made and it needed to be fighting ships without range........ So if you didn¦t know this, can you tell you got experience with Falcons? Hm show me the close Range fitting with 100 km Range(beside the Locus Apoc). O wait, people useing sniping for small gang/solo in Low Sec? Sounds cool, till you get **d by any Close range setup or Sentrys, o wait it doesn¦t. Originally by:** Murina Originally by: The Djego Any Falcon Pilot that dies, get caught in a gate camp, is a to stupid to warp out/cloak/jam Tacklers So in a 3 vs 3 fight the falcon jumps through with his buddies and needs to cloak or be primaried, he then needs to warp away (if no bubble) turn around and warp back at range (if no bubble or if he has pre made sniping BM's) and then he can start jamming against hopefully ships without long range if he has a BM or med range if he warps back at 100km?. And if the fight is not already over from all that warping off and coming back lol..... Since there are not bubbles the Falcon usely comes in first and gets into position. Jump, cloak, warp, anyone. Covert ops cloaks are also not to bad if your a scout... If he has not a Jamming spot(what makes you a bad Falcon Pilot if you don¦t got one at least on the gates and Stations of the region you are operate in) you are at 100, that makes them catchable but well a clever Falcon will jam the ships that can catch/harm it first, also will make a BM there warp to random object warp back at 100 to the made BM -> he is again at a good range from you. This makes him a bit less effective but still removes 1-2 Ships by jamming and trying to catch it from the fight agianst the other ships. Btw how many ships can engage at 100km(besides a Locus Apoc) while beeing short Range fitted? Originally by: Murina Originally by: The Djego BE uses Damps on Sniping Setups, not really useful in anything behind that. They use damps for varied reasons, some to deal with ranged dps ships, or ranged ewar ships, some to make tacklers come close enough to nuet...ect ect like i say its still a versatile module when used by experienced players. You can damp one sniper out of lock wow stunning. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.17 14:57:00 - [55] Edited by: Murina on 17/10/2008 14:59:32 Originally by: The Djego Hm show me the close Range fitting with 100 km Range(beside the Locus Apoc). Who said anything about close range gunnery ships?, I know a few missile spamming ships that can easily hit at 100km bud. Originally by: The Djego Since there are not bubbles the Falcon usually comes in first and gets into position. Jump, cloak, warp, anyone. So the falcon comes in first and takes up position and the three man gang seeing the falcon "jump, cloak, warp" and his buddies waiting next door just sit their and hold still until the hostiles are all ready and in position?. Personally id jump through the gate and kill the two left on the other side or at least push them through before the falcon got into position. But then i am a pvper not a EFT dream warrior. Still i see the problem now your a idiot and so are the ppl your fighting aparantly. Originally by: The Djego You can damp one sniper out of lock wow stunning. 3 damps per raven can do more than that pal but it takes good team work.
Straight Chillen Gallente Solar Wind	Posted - 2008.10.17 15:22:00 - [56] Lol this thread is full of awesome. I think the main problem with ECM is that it way more effective then any form of ewar. I can damp the crap outta somebody but they can still lock and shoot someone in their range. I can Tracking disrupt a ship, and it can still nail me if he gets the transversal right. Your cap can be neuted dry and you can still escape. You can be webbed and still get a lucky burn out. ECM once your jammed your done. and You get to wait out the entire cycle time untill you have a chance to either do something, or be jammed out again. Thats one of my main beefs. It doesnt matter what ship you are flying what kind of skills you have, The jamming duration is the same. That would be the first thing i would change, would be to make ECM's cycle duration based upon the ships sensor strength. This alone i feel would balance out the situation greatly. It makes a lot more sense to me that a lil frig can be jammed with greater effect. And before you go off telling me im an idiot, i know that sensor strength effects the jamming chance. Personally I would change ECM's effect in general to just lock breaking, with very short cycle times. Losing lock is more then enough of an effect in laggy battles, and can even turn the tide in a smaller gang fight. Also lol at the peeps who say oh bring an inty or a cruise raven, Yeah cuz those cant be jammed right? Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Lord EmBra Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.17 15:59:00 - [57] Edited by: Lord EmBra on 17/10/2008 15:59:13 Originally by: Murina Only if you stay at long range, i know ratting is rather static and simple f1-f8 kinda deal but you will need to be more mobile and willing to adapt if you wanna pvp...well ok you can try to nerf the crap out of everything that takes a bit of team work and skill to counter but even so ppl will never sit still like rats for you bud. For someone with a kd below 50% and 28 kills total you sure are fast trowing carebear accusations around at everyone not supporting your ideas
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.10.17 16:32:00 - [58] Originally by: Malik Mantille I assume he was using racial jammers. Perhaps having two ships not of the same race? Assuming the Falcon pilot did not refit his ship completely until the next day (where he jammed 5 out of 7 t2 cruisers to allow an Onyx to escape, but died to sentries), he was fitting purely multispec jammers. Quote: as well, remote ECCM on some other ships to join you? it's a tactic, evolve. Oh, we did evolve. We have a number of very good Falcon pilots, the ship works tremendously well, thanks for asking. I just don't think it's particularly fun in small scale engagements, regardless on which side I am on. Turkey shooting totally disabled ships (with their drones trailing behind an inty because they can't lock anything anymore, and fof missiles hitting the BS next to them and not the Falcon at 60km) is quite effective, hence why we do that, but this forum is about ideas on how to improve EVE to be a more fun experience, not on how to effectively exploit current imbalances.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.17 16:42:00 - [59] Edited by: Murina on 17/10/2008 16:46:16 Originally by: Lord EmBra Originally by: Murina Only if you stay at long range, i know ratting is rather static and simple f1-f8 kinda deal but you will need to be more mobile and willing to adapt if you wanna pvp...well ok you can try to nerf the crap out of everything that takes a bit of team work and skill to counter but even so ppl will never sit still like rats for you bud. For someone with a kd below 50% and 28 kills total you sure are fast trowing carebear accusations around at everyone not supporting your ideas I think that is a great K/D considering how much a CYNO ALT gets popped just for doing his/her job. My main is unfortunately serving time in posting ban prison for posting pictures and naughty language. Are you posting on your main cos it looks like my cyno alt alone is a good 18-20 months older than you.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities	Posted - 2008.10.17 17:10:00 - [60] Originally by: Murina Then be smart enough to bring your own ewar or counter, Ok, you're probably right. So I'll bring my Arazu (EW) to dampen that stupid Falcon sitting 150-200km away from my gang! Oh wait.. ___________________________________ Balance is power, ~~guard~~ hide it well "Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam"
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.17 18:10:00 - [61] Originally by: Tarron Sarek Originally by: Murina Then be smart enough to bring your own ewar or counter, Ok, you're probably right. So I'll bring my Arazu (EW) to dampen that stupid Falcon sitting 150-200km away from my gang! Oh wait.. Do you have to be 150-200km away all the time?, can you not reposition your gang instead of deciding to fight in the place where the falcon is sitting 150-200km away?. Theres lots of objects in space that you can warp to and i doubt they will have 200km BM's off em all bud. I know that when you mission run or rat you do not need to be mobile or really need to reposition as the rats just swanny up to you like total tards. But player controlled ships tend not to sit still and they actually try to gain advantage with range and other annoying stuff, i know its inconvenient and pvp would be much better for you if they just lined up and let you shoot them like the rats do, maybe you should start another thread asking ccp to make ppl do that for you as well?.
Straight Chillen Gallente Solar Wind	Posted - 2008.10.17 18:50:00 - [62] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 17/10/2008 18:20:42 Originally by: Tarron Sarek Originally by: Murina Then be smart enough to bring your own ewar or counter, Ok, you're probably right. So I'll bring my Arazu (EW) to dampen that stupid Falcon sitting 150-200km away from my gang! Oh wait.. OOOO sarcasm let me try. Do you have to be 150-200km away all the time?, can you not reposition your gang instead of deciding to fight in the place where the falcon is sitting 150-200km away?. Theres lots of objects in space that you can warp to and i doubt they will have 200km BM's off em all bud. I know that when you mission run or rat you do not need to be mobile or really need to reposition as the rats just swanny up to you like total tards. But player controlled ships tend not to sit still and they actually try to gain advantage with range and other annoying stuff, i know its inconvenient and pvp would be much better for you if they just lined up and let you shoot them like the rats do, maybe you should start another thread asking ccp to make ppl do that for you as well?. your stupidity is quite astounding tbh Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.17 19:29:00 - [63] Originally by: Straight Chillen Originally by: Murina Originally by: Tarron Sarek Originally by: Murina Then be smart enough to bring your own ewar or counter, Ok, you're probably right. So I'll bring my Arazu (EW) to dampen that stupid Falcon sitting 150-200km away from my gang! Oh wait.. OOOO sarcasm let me try. Do you have to be 150-200km away all the time?, can you not reposition your gang instead of deciding to fight in the place where the falcon is sitting 150-200km away?. Theres lots of objects in space that you can warp to and i doubt they will have 200km BM's off em all bud. I know that when you mission run or rat you do not need to be mobile or really need to reposition as the rats just swanny up to you like total tards. But player controlled ships tend not to sit still and they actually try to gain advantage with range and other annoying stuff, i know its inconvenient and pvp would be much better for you if they just lined up and let you shoot them like the rats do, maybe you should start another thread asking ccp to make ppl do that for you as well?. your stupidity is quite astounding tbh Gosh there is nothing quite like a detailed tactical scenario to put a guy in his place, nice counter argument muppet.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities	Posted - 2008.10.17 21:36:00 - [64] Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 17/10/2008 21:38:30 Originally by: Murina Originally by: Tarron Sarek stuff OOOO sarcasm let me try. other stuff That was no sarcasm. That was merely pointing out a flaw in your argument which, to be honest, you failed to counter with such generalised and unfounded statements as "Theres lots of objects in space that you can warp to". ___________________________________ Balance is power, ~~guard~~ hide it well "Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam"
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.17 22:01:00 - [65] Edited by: Murina on 17/10/2008 22:05:56 Originally by: Tarron Sarek That was no sarcasm. That was merely pointing out a flaw in your argument which, to be honest, you failed to counter with such generalized and unfounded statements as "Theres lots of objects in space that you can warp to". Generalized and unfounded?. If you cannot understand the advantage gained by positioning your assets in such a way that you reduce or negate the effect or effects of the opposing sides abilities then your a very confused person, as that is in part if not the whole of issue your complaining about in the first place. A falcon is great if your enemy is a fool and jumps into a camp where it can be setup at 200+ ready to jam, but if you move the engagement to another spot where at best it will land 100km off you or be forced to jump into you (if you warp in at 100km to a object and the hostile gang follows you the falcon may land on top of you btw) it turns into a useless paper thin ship with no dmg to speak of. Now maybe what you translated to "Theirs lots of objects in space that you can warp to" was a little bit vague for your low level of experience i hope dumbing it down for you in the post above has helped you understand. Although i thought "Do you have to be 150-200km away all the time?, can you not reposition your gang instead of deciding to fight in the place where the falcon is sitting 150-200km away" along with "Theirs lots of objects in space that you can warp to" was pretty much self explanatory tbh. I hope this has helped a little as i know learning the basics of pvp can take time for some ppl.

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