Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 [12] 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 29 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 15 post(s) |
|
CCP Nozh
C C P
|
Posted - 2008.10.22 17:33:00 -
[331]
Originally by: MyOwnSling Excellent, thank you. May I ask what kind of drone changes you are looking into?
We're taking a look at all drones. However the most apparent problem we saw during our initial trials was the tracking of medium drones.
We might have some updates tonight.
Nozh Game Designer CCP Games |
|
Uzume Ame
|
Posted - 2008.10.22 17:40:00 -
[332]
Nice things I hear, overall I think you're doing a nice work even with all the crybabies out there.
Onw question though, have you taken a look at faction missiles allready? It would be possible to have T2 heavy missiles with decent range (>50km)? Teh failure of a signature. |
SATAN
BURN EDEN Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.10.22 17:41:00 -
[333]
So let me get this straight,
The so called nano nerf has turned into yet another missile nerf.
Now missile boats not only do far less damage than gun boats, but cant even killed tackled targets within a normal time frame. Or in other words what a gun boat would kill in 1 volley a cruise missile ship will take 1 minute.
Cant say I am surprised, but at least call it what it really is a MISSILE NERF not a nano nerf.
|
Cpt Branko
Surge.
|
Posted - 2008.10.22 17:55:00 -
[334]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 22/10/2008 18:00:55 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 22/10/2008 17:59:59
Originally by: Gypsio III CCP was talking about giving inties a bonus to reduce MWD-sig-bloom. Has that made it on to Sisi yet? That would certainly help the survivability of inties under Cruise fire.
And, for that matter, under medium turret fire, especially pulse.
Well, countering a part of the interceptor speed nerf is fine, but overdoing it and making a interceptor invulnerable to medium turret fire is silly.
I mean, on TQ, if you want to be virtually invulnerable to medium turret fire, it is doable, but it requires a fairly large investment (polys + at least speed hardwirings minimum + L5 skills + gang bonus will work) - being able to do that with a 15 million T2 basic fit would be silly.
But anyway, tracking formula needs a rework atm, since the effects of closing range (with nerfed webs) are totally silly. The fact that a ship which is going 500m/s at 500m has the transversal equalivent to the same ship MWD-ing at 140km/s at 28km is quite silly to be honest.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Lili Lu
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
|
Posted - 2008.10.22 18:31:00 -
[335]
Originally by: CCP Fendahl
Javelin has -10% damage compared to normal T1 missiles, but a 50% range bonus. They have a penalty to the ship's speed (as before).
Looks to me like you just killed the Khanid ships. No range option whatsoever. You should increase the base range for normal rockets and HAM then if you are not going to change that.
50% on top af 4500m rockets is a drop in the bucket, likewise 9000m HAMs.
As a general comment - I was initially in favor of a speed adjustment. However, as this particular effort has evolved it has got worse and worse. Please read all of the many player-generated suggestions that were provided before any of the changes you instituted. Really, small changes would have sufficed.
|
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
|
Posted - 2008.10.22 18:36:00 -
[336]
Originally by: Lili Lu
Originally by: CCP Fendahl
Javelin has -10% damage compared to normal T1 missiles, but a 50% range bonus. They have a penalty to the ship's speed (as before).
Looks to me like you just killed the Khanid ships. No range option whatsoever. You should increase the base range for normal rockets and HAM then if you are not going to change that.
50% on top af 4500m rockets is a drop in the bucket, likewise 9000m HAMs.
As a general comment - I was initially in favor of a speed adjustment. However, as this particular effort has evolved it has got worse and worse. Please read all of the many player-generated suggestions that were provided before any of the changes you instituted. Really, small changes would have sufficed.
Thats without skills mate. Skills give +100% (more-less) thus 10km for rockets, 20km for HAMs. 15km javelin rockets, 30km jav. HAMs. Tho i agree that jav rockets should get a bit more ;p (preferred 20km like before - wasnt much but still better than sitting in web range from start).
|
Lili Lu
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
|
Posted - 2008.10.22 19:02:00 -
[337]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Lili Lu
Originally by: CCP Fendahl
Javelin has -10% damage compared to normal T1 missiles, but a 50% range bonus. They have a penalty to the ship's speed (as before).
Looks to me like you just killed the Khanid ships. No range option whatsoever. You should increase the base range for normal rockets and HAM then if you are not going to change that.
50% on top af 4500m rockets is a drop in the bucket, likewise 9000m HAMs.
As a general comment - I was initially in favor of a speed adjustment. However, as this particular effort has evolved it has got worse and worse. Please read all of the many player-generated suggestions that were provided before any of the changes you instituted. Really, small changes would have sufficed.
Thats without skills mate. Skills give +100% (more-less) thus 10km for rockets, 20km for HAMs. 15km javelin rockets, 30km jav. HAMs. Tho i agree that jav rockets should get a bit more ;p (preferred 20km like before - wasnt much but still better than sitting in web range from start).
I know, that's why i said base. That 50% bonus will be applied to the base. An extra 3k on jav rockets accomplishes next to nothing. Ditto for 6k on HAMs.
There is a huge range difference between base HAMs and Torps. Either boost the base range of rockets and HAMs or increase the javelin range buff for those weapons.
30km on Javelin HAMs is not enough imo. Sure, the 77km I am getting now may be excessive, but there has to be some range option that's meaningful for Khanid ships.
It's a calculation of losing damage and ship speed to gain range in deciding whether to use javelins. If the range gain is minimal why bother. And if the ships are restricted to operating always within disruptor, scram, and web range, imo why bother. Even a Diemost has 5 med drones for range. 3 light drones on a Sac are not comparable.
|
June K'aral
|
Posted - 2008.10.22 19:18:00 -
[338]
Originally by: Lili Lu
30km on Javelin HAMs is not enough imo. Sure, the 77km I am getting now may be excessive, but there has to be some range option that's meaningful for Khanid ships.
It's called Heavy missiles, check them out some time if you need range. That is all.
|
ArmyOfMe
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
|
Posted - 2008.10.22 19:21:00 -
[339]
Originally by: June K'aral
Originally by: Lili Lu
30km on Javelin HAMs is not enough imo. Sure, the 77km I am getting now may be excessive, but there has to be some range option that's meaningful for Khanid ships.
It's called Heavy missiles, check them out some time if you need range. That is all.
you do know that khanid ships dont have a bonus to heavy missiles right
Originally by: deadmaus
Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
|
Posted - 2008.10.22 19:33:00 -
[340]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 22/10/2008 19:33:43
Originally by: ArmyOfMe
Originally by: June K'aral
Originally by: Lili Lu
30km on Javelin HAMs is not enough imo. Sure, the 77km I am getting now may be excessive, but there has to be some range option that's meaningful for Khanid ships.
It's called Heavy missiles, check them out some time if you need range. That is all.
you do know that khanid ships dont have a bonus to heavy missiles right
thats the point of khanid ships... close range missile spammer
EDIT: also: 3km more on rockets does help because after skills it becomes 6km same for hams and torps
|
|
Lili Lu
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
|
Posted - 2008.10.22 19:58:00 -
[341]
Yeah, heavy missile launchers, have those trained also. Use them on other ships. On a Sac though only one bonus will apply to them. Means giving up the 25% damage bonus to HAMs.
Also, yeah, I know the Sac is geared to in your face close-range. My point still is the javelin bonus on HAMs and rockets is not significant enough anymore to use them. And I will just use some other ship if the Sac becomes a one-trick pony. Ditto for Vengeance. Malediction is meant to go into web range, web and possibly be webbed so matters less.
What are we getting here but more Amarr and Minmatar nerfs and Caldari buffs. Increased mass on Amarr and Minmatar BS, while decreased mass on Ravens Khanid ships losing adaptability. And everyone losing range and slowing down so the overpowered ECM boats are even further out of reach.
I no longer support this "balancing" because I see it creating more imbalance. And if it trully messes up the game I'll vote with my feet, and no you can't have my stuff.
|
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
|
Posted - 2008.10.22 20:10:00 -
[342]
well javelins for sac arent THAT important but still ability to hit out of scram/heavy neut range are sometimes useful
javelin torps are godsend for ravens (45km range compared to 30 on normal torps)
javelin rockets are very good for heretic (or at least were), mediciore for other missile frigs (due to short range - 15km is still too close to web)
|
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
|
Posted - 2008.10.22 20:13:00 -
[343]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
thats the point of khanid ships... close range missile spammer
Yes and that is why we want long range and short range of each missiles class balanced like cruise vs torps. We rarely see rockets put on ships that have bonus to both rockets and std missiles. Why? These need to be looked at. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Tempest of Change |
KingCappo
Seigers of Doom
|
Posted - 2008.10.22 21:01:00 -
[344]
Edited by: KingCappo on 22/10/2008 21:06:13
Originally by: CCP Fendahl Javelin has -10% damage compared to normal T1 missiles, but a 50% range bonus. They have a penalty to the ship's speed (as before).
Based on EFT (don't have eve on this computer), this is the current relationship for javelin torpedoes on TQ currently:
t1 torpedo base: 9km range, 450 dmg t2 javelin torpedo base: 13.5km range, 380 dmg t2 javelin difference: +50% range, -16% dmg
Unless my info is totally wrong, my torp Golem thanks you for the damage buff.
edit: also, the change to rage torpedoes should be a boon to Golem pilots as well. It will be interesting to see the different impacts upon tanking by replaceing the cap recharge penalty with a signature radius increase. But when combined with a bonused TP, rage torpedoes could make mission running quite fun.
|
DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.10.22 21:15:00 -
[345]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: DeadDuck
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Yes sac is close range brawler and get used to this.
I prefer to return to the good old Zealots and Curses
Im not sure when they "left". Since 5 turrets zealot is most overpowered HAC in this game. Curse? Mediciore imo. Myself prefer pilgrim or minnie recons (even after nano nerf).
Yep Zealot is a good HAC, but tbh wasn't a match against a Sacrilege, at least with the Javelin HAM's before the speed nerf. Now it will be diferent.
________________ God is my Wingman |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
|
Posted - 2008.10.22 21:19:00 -
[346]
actually zealot was much better in anti support role than sac (both pulse and beam setups had their own uses)
but nvm that - its missiles thread not zealot one ;p
|
Zikka
Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.10.22 21:27:00 -
[347]
Why do precision missiles - the ones that need to be able to chase after speeding targets - have reduced range? That was one of the things that made them less useful on TQ.
|
Kayosoni
Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.10.22 23:29:00 -
[348]
Originally by: CCP Fendahl Javelin has -10% damage compared to normal T1 missiles, but a 50% range bonus. They have a penalty to the ship's speed (as before).
Just go back to javelins being precision torps and delete the range bonus. Range bonus on close range weapon is completely useless, kind of like an oxymoron isn't it? -----------------------------------
|
D4RT N3RDiUS
|
Posted - 2008.10.22 23:42:00 -
[349]
Quote: We're taking a look at all drones. However the most apparent problem we saw during our initial trials was the tracking of medium drones.
We might have some updates tonight.
another gallente nerf incoming?.. first blasterboats now droneships XD..
omg mi curse!! wyyyyyyyyyy now is totaly usseles.. nozh we are going to get some new bonus for the ships you screw? like curses?
|
Cpt Branko
Surge.
|
Posted - 2008.10.23 01:05:00 -
[350]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer We rarely see rockets put on ships that have bonus to both rockets and std missiles. Why? These need to be looked at.
Because rocket DPS sucks horribly (is only a totally minor increase over std missile DPS), the range drop is huge.
Also, they're nerfing rockets now, so you can't do full DPS to frigates anymore without a TP, not to even mention interceptors, and nerfing explosion velocity of them as well. I guess rockets were OP and needed a nerf?
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
|
Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
|
Posted - 2008.10.23 02:02:00 -
[351]
Edited by: Veldya on 23/10/2008 02:05:00
Originally by: Lili Lu
Originally by: Veldya Missiles need SIGNIFICANT advantages over turrets because they have significant weaknesses. You can't take out all the advantages and just leave weaknesses.
You know, I see this and I wonder if people who say things like this have ever flown a turret BS.
EFT is evil. Fly something other than a drake and a raven some time. Fly a phoon and compare your arty damage v your cruise damage. And that's before any of the stupid changes on the test server.
I can damage fast targets in my Rokh far more reliably than I can with missiles. I can't if they are very close to me and orbiting but if you are in a 5v5 and you have all the targets locked and you just select the targets which have a favorable transversal for your tracking you will obliterate them.
With the old missile system as long as you traveled at speed X you took no damage from missiles. You travel at the same speed but within a favorable transversal at a turret ship you will get sodomized. You can choose your transversal in 1v1, when you are in 5v5 or bigger, you can't choose your transversal vs all targets. This is why turrets are superior as long as everyone isn't bunched up like bunnies.
Turret fire is instant. You don't lose all your rounds fired when jammed. Someone fitting any SB will destroy all your missiles in its radius. Some ships can outrun your missiles.
Difference between turrets and fast ships is hit factors, with missiles they are damage factors. If you can't hit or can't damage there is no real difference. The difference is turrets don't have the added vulnerability that missiles have.
|
KingCappo
Seigers of Doom
|
Posted - 2008.10.23 02:06:00 -
[352]
Originally by: Kayosoni
Just go back to javelins being precision torps and delete the range bonus. Range bonus on close range weapon is completely useless, kind of like an oxymoron isn't it?
I think that this is a very bad idea. Torp range is already very low, getting rid of javelins in their current form would really limit their usefulness.
Besides, precision version of big, dumb, weapon is kind of like an oxymoron, isn't it?
|
Murina
The Scope
|
Posted - 2008.10.23 08:08:00 -
[353]
Edited by: Murina on 23/10/2008 08:12:08
Originally by: Veldya
I can damage fast targets in my Rokh far more reliably than I can with missiles. I can't if they are very close to me and orbiting but if you are in a 5v5 and you have all the targets locked and you just select the targets which have a favorable transversal for your tracking you will obliterate them.
For my mega to hit a ceptor even occasionally on sissi it needs to have a transversal of less than 200ms and considering how many webs that means a 5000ms ship needs on it to get it to that speed, it would be dead from the webbing ships fire long before i could hit it.
Originally by: Veldya You can choose your transversal in 1v1, when you are in 5v5 or bigger, you can't choose your transversal vs all targets. This is why turrets are superior as long as everyone isn't bunched up like bunnies.
Battleships cannot choose their transversal against a small ships like a ceptor as BS are not nearly maneuverable enough, nor does spreading out matter because no ceptor pilot is gonna sit still at under 200ms or select to burn directly at any ship in the game ever unless he wants a quick trip home to a clone vat.
Originally by: Veldya Turret fire is instant. You don't lose all your rounds fired when jammed.
True but if the target is at 50% armour he stays at 50% armour if you jam a turret ship cos it breaks the turret ships target lock, he will also stay at 50% if the missile ship gets jammed so whats the problem?. Missiles do follow ships into POS's though and since jump bridges ganking ships at a JB POS with a dictor and several ravens is great fun.
Originally by: Veldya Someone fitting any SB will destroy all your missiles in its radius.
Maybe slow moving dread torps but the high speed missiles used in normal combat would need to be very unlucky to be in the 5km SB range exactly as it went off, anyway tracking disruptor's are much more effective against turrets than SB's are against all but a dreads missiles.
Originally by: Veldya Some ships can outrun your missiles.
Not anymore unless your using the wrong kind of missiles against fast ships.
|
Carniflex
Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project
|
Posted - 2008.10.23 09:12:00 -
[354]
Originally by: CCP Fendahl We have finished the next round of missile tweaks both for T1 and T2 missiles. The T2 missiles have been overhauled significantly:
Rage/fury now do significantly more damage to larger targets (up to 28% more) compared to T1 missiles, but do very poor damage against targets of the same class and lower (if they are speed tanking). The damage boost makes them hit harder than even the best faction missiles when fighting larger targets. The penalty has been changed to a signature radius penalty, which makes the ship more vulnerable.
Precision missiles are better against smaller targets, in particular ships using afterburners, but worse against ships of the same class as the missile (and above). They have 50% of the range of normal T1 missiles (same range as for the long range missiles in the class below) and a penalty to the ship's speed (as before).
Javelin has -10% damage compared to normal T1 missiles, but a 50% range bonus. They have a penalty to the ship's speed (as before).
The changes are already out on Singularity and ready for testing
Very interesting. Especially the Fury cruise missiles. +28% will be pushing them above javelin torpedo damage while they have range of approx 200 km vs javelin torp approx 65 - 70 km. In that current form Fury would be relatively popular in PvE (altho I must admit I did not have time to actually go and shoot stuff with them in PvE, perhaps tomorrow). Altho it seems cruise still die to defenders while torps are almost immune to defenders.
I did manage to take a short peek at regular T1 missiles in PvE (CNR with 3x rigor rigs). They are as effective against big (BC size and above) targets as before and slightly worse against small (guardian frigates) than before. However with PWNAGE painter added they are a bit more effective against frigate size PvE targets than before.
For those of you who cant get into SiSi atm, some numbers from my missionrunning CNR (4x cn bcu, 3x rigor rigs, 5% damage hardwire) Missile - damage reduction - signature - flight time x flight speed - explosion speed - base damage Fury cruise - 4.7 - 270m - 25.2x7875 (~200km) - 81.2 - 544 Precision - 3.5 - 132m - 14x7875 (~110 km) - 99.4 - 368.5 CN (faction) - 4.5 - 147m - 28x7875 (~220km) - 96.6 - 489 T1 (regular) - 4.5 - 147m - 28x7875 (~220km) - 96.6 - 425
While on CNR PWNAGE painter might not be enough to increase cruiser sized targets enough to spank them with fury for full potential added base damage (~ 10% above faction cruise missiles) might be enough to justify using them in missions over faction missiles. Other stats than signature radius do not seem that bad on them. In Golem with 2 painters fury cruise might quite well outperform current torpedo setups altho at this point it's pure speculation.
|
Tzaris
|
Posted - 2008.10.23 10:14:00 -
[355]
Yeah ... just please remember not to nerf rating on belts and missioning in caldari ships.
|
Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
|
Posted - 2008.10.23 11:56:00 -
[356]
Originally by: Murina
For my rail fitted mega to hit a ceptor (even occasionally) on sissi right now it needs to have a transversal of less than 200ms and be at long range (considerably less than 200ms if i wanna hit regularly) and considering how many webs that means a 5000ms ship needs on it to get it to that speed, it would be dead from the webbing ships fire long before i could hit it.
Extremely high speeds will not be the norm given you can knock out the MWDs. But I do think that turrets need to be tweaked so that like missiles, it is easier to do some damage to smaller ships but still hard to do max damage.
Quote:
Battleships cannot choose their transversal against a small ships as BS are not nearly maneuverable enough, nor does spreading out matter because no ceptor pilot is gonna sit still at under 200ms or select to burn directly at any ship in the game ever unless he wants a quick trip home to a clone vat.
I mean the small ship can choose it's transversal vs one target, when there are more targets and they are spread around it is harder to achieve a desirable transversal that would avoid enemy tracking against all targets. Ie, moving at a vector which makes it hard for Ship A to hit you might be within Ship B's tracking. The current system is flawed with missile fire because the max speed was king, go well over explosion velocity and you took no damage, there was no vulnerability obviously outside of getting webbed.
With turrets you only need small windows to hit, it is not so easy with missiles because of the time it takes for the missiles to reach the target.
Quote:
True but if the target is at 50% Armour he stays at 50% Armour if you jam a turret ship cos it breaks the turret ships target lock, he will also stay at 50% if the missile ship gets jammed so whats the problem?.
The issue is Turret ship fires at ECM ship, has time for 3 volleys before he jams. You hit with 3 volleys. Missile ship fires at ECM ship, missile ship gets 3 volleys before getting jammed. All missiles in transit lose lock and don't land. Turret has at least had the chance to inflict damage. Missile boat is severely penalised because of the time element of missile flight. There just needs to be some upside to missiles if you have a lot of negatives.
Quote:
Missiles do follow ships into POS's though and since jump bridges ganking ships at a JB POS with a dictor and several ravens is great fun, as you can hear the sigh of relief as they get into the POS bubble only seconds later to be hit by volley after volley of missiles until...pop.
Funny and situational but probably something that is an oversight. Missiles should lose lock or hit the shield but wasn't going to be fixed while missiles sucked ass.
Quote:
Not anymore unless your using the wrong kind of missiles against fast ships.
Rockets and assault missiles only have a base velocity of 2250m/s, with rockets having a base 2 second flight time and assault 4 sec. Could probably out-run those with a fast ship depending on what kind of velocity bonus the firer had. For most it is not an issue.
Quote:
Did you really think that this speed nerf was gonna be just about slowing stuff down for your missile spams?, the "balance" you cried so much for is a two edged sword pally.
Missiles did no damage to fast ships, everything so far has been an improvement.
Quote:
Personally i preferred the old system as missile ships made great and versatile dmg dealers when used with fast tacklers, logistics and ewar.
The old system sucked. I find most people don't care for balance, they want what suits them. I fly Amarr, i fly Caldari, I fly Gallente and I fly Minmatar so whatever happens some of my toons will get nerfed, others will get boosted. It happens every time mechanics changes.
I question the intelligence and/or motive of people who claim missiles were fine.
|
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2008.10.23 12:00:00 -
[357]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 23/10/2008 12:01:30
Quote: You hit with 3 volleys. Missile ship fires at ECM ship, missile ship gets 3 volleys before getting jammed. All missiles in transit lose lock and don't land.
Can someone confirm this please? I thought that this didn't happen... but when I fire missiles at ECM ships I don't tend to get jammed, so I haven't had much experience of it lately.
|
Murina
The Scope
|
Posted - 2008.10.23 12:09:00 -
[358]
Edited by: Murina on 23/10/2008 12:14:24 Edited by: Murina on 23/10/2008 12:11:21
Originally by: Veldya
I question the intelligence and/or motive of people who claim missiles were fine.
PRE-NERF:
Look at the bonuses each race got/gets and you will get the idea. Mini make great tacklers, caldari have great ecm and dmg/range ratio's, gallente have drones and a reasonable mix of abilities while not excelling at any individual aspect and amaar have great tracking and tank.
A good mix of each races ships in the right proportions in a gang are considerably stronger than a single races, but all less experienced players see is the individual stats and how in certain circumstances one style or race happens to be better than a single races ships. Missiles vs speed pre-nerf are a fine example of this closed and inexperienced mentality.
It is a short sighted view and one that will never be resolved by nerfing, only by ppl understanding that a mix of races with their own individual strengths is the best and strongest combination and comparing individual stats and abilities is pointless and can never ever be balanced without screwing up variety.
PS: For somebody who claims to have high SP chars in all races your understanding of high spec pvp and the benefits of multi-racial ship teamwork is rather naive and lacking tbh.
|
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
|
Posted - 2008.10.23 12:35:00 -
[359]
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 23/10/2008 12:16:57
Quote: You hit with 3 volleys. Missile ship fires at ECM ship, missile ship gets 3 volleys before getting jammed. All missiles in transit lose lock and don't land.
Can someone confirm this please? I thought that this didn't happen... but when I fire missiles at ECM ships I don't tend to get jammed, so I haven't had much experience of it lately.
He is wrong i was just on sissi in my falcon and had a missile ship shoot at me from 100km, i focused on the ship and as soon as the missiles were in flight i jammed him, all missiles hit my falcon...fekin hard.
|
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2008.10.23 12:47:00 -
[360]
Ah thanks, yeah, that's what I thought happened.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 [12] 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 29 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |