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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 15 post(s) |
Opertone
Caldari SIEGE. United Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.01 09:58:00 -
[661]
same class missiles, Cruise vs BS suffer 50% damage reduction - fact
guns have high quality shots, +25% to damage output
under sized missiles do more damage, almost 90% of theoretical DPS
isn't it just plain wrong?
no battleship can avoid being shot by other battleship, not at 10 km, not at 30 km, not even at 150 km
every battleship can escape missiles at all ranges
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TZeer
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.01 10:34:00 -
[662]
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 01/11/2008 05:26:48 Actually I have a few mil sp in missles and use them frequently on my sacrilege. You guys wanted a caldari boost. You can say what you'd like, but Caldari FW players and ratters pushed the majority of the nano whining. Torps and cruise shouldn't be able to hit small ships. How do you argue that? Large Laser turrets can't, large blasters can't, large projectiles can't. Where is the logic in letting missles do it?
Under certain circumstance they can...
Sit still and turrets can instapop the right targets, no matter what the sig radius is...
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Vigaz
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Posted - 2008.11.01 11:33:00 -
[663]
Stealth Bombers are broken due to the new cruise exp velocity and new missile dmg formula. Can we have a DEV comment about SB situation in Sisi?
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.11.01 12:15:00 -
[664]
Originally by: TZeer
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 01/11/2008 05:26:48 Actually I have a few mil sp in missles and use them frequently on my sacrilege. You guys wanted a caldari boost. You can say what you'd like, but Caldari FW players and ratters pushed the majority of the nano whining. Torps and cruise shouldn't be able to hit small ships. How do you argue that? Large Laser turrets can't, large blasters can't, large projectiles can't. Where is the logic in letting missles do it?
Under certain circumstance they can...
Sit still and turrets can instapop the right targets, no matter what the sig radius is...
True but missiles now do low but constant dmg no matter the speed or sig of the target, both types have bad and good points.
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TZeer
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.01 14:53:00 -
[665]
Originally by: lebrata
Originally by: TZeer
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 01/11/2008 05:26:48 Actually I have a few mil sp in missles and use them frequently on my sacrilege. You guys wanted a caldari boost. You can say what you'd like, but Caldari FW players and ratters pushed the majority of the nano whining. Torps and cruise shouldn't be able to hit small ships. How do you argue that? Large Laser turrets can't, large blasters can't, large projectiles can't. Where is the logic in letting missles do it?
Under certain circumstance they can...
Sit still and turrets can instapop the right targets, no matter what the sig radius is...
True but missiles now do low but constant dmg no matter the speed or sig of the target, both types have bad and good points.
But the damage is so small that it`s close to useless, a speedfitted vagabond with AB can passivetank a maxskilled cruiseraven on it`s lowest resists...
With turrets when you slow down a target enough the sig radius doesnt matter. You will land good hits and even wrecking hits. Missiles dont have that.
And even when you slow down the target the default sig on the ship is so small that the missile will have damagepenalty by default.
Because of the sig radius penalty, and the early stage the speed starts to bleed off damage, you end up with cruisers tanking the damage from a fully specced cruiseraven, no matter range, tracking or whatever.
Now, try and do the same with turrets. Start giving penalty on their damage based on gun sig resolution and targets singature radius. It would be terrible!
Cruise missiles was a good support weapon. A single cruiseraven could never beat a properly tanked BS. But it was very good at killing cruisers.
Now it will suck at both.
Even BS can reduce the default damage by 50% now, before adding resists by fitting an AB. And anything cruisersized it will do LOL damage against.
Now someone says, "But cruise is for sniping other BS" cruise was never used for that in fleetfights. Cruiseravens was antisupport.
And using them for shooting primaries is a waste of time. Gun plattforms will do it better, and any cruiseraven trying to shoot on primary will end up with 0 damage on the killmail.
Trying to have cruiseraven shooting secondary might work, if you have them trapped. But will generally alert the target that it will soon be primary, and give them a heads up from 5 lol cruiseraven sending missiles at them...
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.11.01 15:57:00 -
[666]
Edited by: lebrata on 01/11/2008 16:27:09
Originally by: TZeer
Now someone says, "But cruise is for sniping other BS" cruise was never used for that in fleetfights. Cruiseravens was antisupport.
It was used as anti support because the old mechanics allowed it to be so due to the need to tackle or slow a ship to kill it, with the new mechanics it would be way overpowered if it was allowed to hit for the same dmg after this stupid nerf as cruise can now hit any untackled ship in the game, and would be the the only pwn all long range fitted BS in the game if that was allowed....so your out of luck welcome to what the morons in ccp consider balance.
BE have no problem killing stuff with your ravens at 180+km not matter the size pre-nerf, now you will just need to mix a few long range anti support ships in with your ravens, falcon and tacklers........
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.01 16:50:00 -
[667]
Only thing you forget Lebrata is that it would take 2-3 cruiseravens to break the tank on an adequatly tanked battleship at range.
That is assuming cruisemissiles hit for full damage which they wont after patch , so to match the effective DPS of a single pulse apoc with cruise missiles you will probably need 8-10 ravens. Assuming an unwebbed, unpainted target at range ofcourse.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.11.01 17:23:00 -
[668]
Edited by: lebrata on 01/11/2008 17:25:35
Originally by: Hyveres Only thing you forget Lebrata is that it would take 2-3 cruiseravens to break the tank on an adequatly tanked battleship at range.
That is assuming cruise missiles hit for full damage which they wont after patch , so to match the effective DPS of a single pulse apoc with cruise missiles you will probably need 8-10 ravens. Assuming an unwebbed, unpainted target at range ofcourse.
It would take more sniper fitted megas, pests or apoc's to break the same tank as they all have less dps than cruise ravens.
And when the pulse on that apoc you mention are a long range weapon systems like cruise are you may have a point.
FYI dps wise cruise ravens are the highest damaging long range BS in the game on TQ as we speak, after the patch they still have higher dps in your scenario.
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TZeer
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.01 17:39:00 -
[669]
Originally by: lebrata Edited by: lebrata on 01/11/2008 16:27:09
Originally by: TZeer
Now someone says, "But cruise is for sniping other BS" cruise was never used for that in fleetfights. Cruiseravens was antisupport.
It was used as anti support because the old mechanics allowed it to be so due to the need to tackle or slow a ship to kill it, with the new mechanics it would be way overpowered if it was allowed to hit for the same dmg after this stupid nerf as cruise can now hit any untackled ship in the game, and would be the the only pwn all long range fitted BS in the game if that was allowed....so your out of luck welcome to what the morons in ccp consider balance.
BE have no problem killing stuff with your ravens at 180+km not matter the size pre-nerf, now you will just need to mix a few long range anti support ships in with your ravens, falcon and tacklers........
It was used as anti support cause thats what it was good at.Shooting primaries was a no go, since they would most likely be dead before the missiles reached the target.
There`s a difference in hit and actually do damage... Missiles always hit before the nerf also. But the damage was still crap. What I have a problem with here is that the damage starts to bleed off to early when it comes to speed.
You dont even have to fit for speed to reduce the missiles effectivenes quite a bit on a cruiser...
So why is it balanced for turrets to do wreckinghits and full damage when the target is standing still, while missiles will be dictated by sig size? Add delayed damage, and a very hard penalty on damage vs speed.
Any cruiser will be able to go above 200m/s...
CCP should atleast make it mandatory to fit an AB on the cruiser if he wants to speedtank. Add also that AB will have less CAP use pr cycle, less powergrid, and the ship will have a better option at fitting a tank as well.
Wich ends up with craptastic damage from missiles.
Not even heavy missiles are doing full damage against cruisers... Balanced? Dont think so.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.11.01 17:57:00 -
[670]
Edited by: lebrata on 01/11/2008 18:02:38
Originally by: TZeer
So why is it balanced for turrets to do wreckinghits and full damage when the target is standing still, while missiles will be dictated by sig size?.
The whole patch sucks tbh but the ability to hit afk players or morons hard that sit still is hardly a huge benefit.
Fly a smaller ship if you wanna kill support thats what ccp seem to want to happen for us all....
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.01 18:30:00 -
[671]
Originally by: lebrata Edited by: lebrata on 01/11/2008 18:23:00
Originally by: TZeer
So why is it balanced for turrets to do wreckinghits and full damage when the target is standing still, while missiles will be dictated by sig size?.
The whole patch sucks tbh but the ability to hit afk players or morons hard that sit still is hardly a huge benefit.
Fly a smaller ship if you wanna kill support thats what ccp seem to want to happen for us all....
Not only that, but the balance is actually in the fact that while guns can deal 0 DPS, missiles will always deal some, even vs untackled ships.
As a solo pilot BC pilot, I have to fit dual neuts to dispose of frigates within webrange.
A Drake pilot can hit them unassisted with heavies for enough DPS to actually kill them just fine.
It seems perfectly balanced that, if the transversal is 0 or close to it, I do full DPS, since it's perfectly possible for my target to evade all of my turret DPS.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.11.01 18:32:00 -
[672]
Having just been on Sisi... WOW, torpedoes are overpowered now.
On tQ: torpedoes come CLOSE to max blaster damage (1100 vs about 1250 raven v megathron), at about quadruple the range, with both having the option of going even further range for a DPS loss. Torps were actually too strong for their range, but balance by the old missile formula that means even with a web, torps arent going to **** small stuff.
On sisi: Rage torps means with a web and a painter (hardly difficult to build into a small gang or even some 1v1 fits) you can OUT-DAMAGE blasterships while still having triple their range! There's no longer a "killing small stuff" advantage for blaster ships thanks to the web changes. And to make things even better - rage had their crippling penalty removed for a relatively minor one.
I've got nothing against Rage torps being useful. Its good that ONE of the close-range T2 ammos is. But, its absurd that CCP have rebalanced Rage without doing the same thing to Hail, Void and conflag, and giving some love to blasters and autocannons.
Conversely, it seems these changes have left a bit of a speculative role for cruises - they seem a bit pointless now, tbh.
Im sorry if this massive torp boost (AGAIN, why do they keep on making a good weapon better?) has already been pointed out, but its a bit much to read through the entire thread, cluttered as it is with people who think that weapons systems should be balanced around PVE, spouting irrelevant numbers about mission targets...
_______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces |
TZeer
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.01 18:54:00 -
[673]
Originally by: lebrata Edited by: lebrata on 01/11/2008 18:23:00
Originally by: TZeer
So why is it balanced for turrets to do wreckinghits and full damage when the target is standing still, while missiles will be dictated by sig size?.
The whole patch sucks tbh but the ability to hit afk players or morons hard that sit still is hardly a huge benefit.
Fly a smaller ship if you wanna kill support thats what ccp seem to want to happen for us all....
Originally by: TZeer Not even heavy missiles are doing full damage against cruisers... Balanced? Dont think so.
Not having any tracking issues from 0 to the max range of every missile weapon system your using should have a down side bud.....this is it.
Delayed damage?
And "Not having any tracking issues from 0 to the max range" have you ever used misiles?
All people have to do is get their speed up, thats it.
Did a quick test on SISI now. A rupture with AB, cap booster, 1 medium rep and 2 energized adaptive nanofibers... Against precission cruise, max skilles, and +3% imlants...
Guess what? 135 precission cruisemissiles, and was not able to break the tank. And the rupture had still 2 lowslots, 1 medium to play with...
Now, what will the point of a raven be?
Long range fleet: Guns will kill any ship better then the cruiseraven. And precission wont reach to the sniping distance from normal BS snipers.
Antisupport: Most of the damage will be speedtanked, then you can add resists and the damage will be close to nonexcistant.
Yes I know you will come with the "But the missile will hit any time"
YES WE KNOW THAT. But the damage is so ****poor that you couldnt kill a fly with it.
CCP needs to take a look at the damagereduction Vs Speed
It starts way to early.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.11.01 19:12:00 -
[674]
Originally by: TZeer
Delayed damage?
And "Not having any tracking issues from 0 to the max range" have you ever used misiles?
All people have to do is get their speed up, thats it.
Look ccp have all but said that they want BS weapons to be useless against smaller ships and you seem to be confirming that they are so..........
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TZeer
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.01 19:19:00 -
[675]
Originally by: lebrata
Originally by: TZeer
Delayed damage?
And "Not having any tracking issues from 0 to the max range" have you ever used misiles?
All people have to do is get their speed up, thats it.
Look ccp have all but said that they want BS weapons to be useless against smaller ships and you seem to be confirming that they are so..........
Care to show me where?
By that logic, cruisers should be useless against frigs...
So, show me the quote where they have stated this.
Less effective on smaller targets, yes, useless no...
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.11.01 19:25:00 -
[676]
Edited by: lebrata on 01/11/2008 19:33:40
Originally by: TZeer
Originally by: lebrata
Originally by: TZeer
Delayed damage?
And "Not having any tracking issues from 0 to the max range" have you ever used misiles?
All people have to do is get their speed up, thats it.
Delayed damage but a higher base dps, choice of dmg types and yes not tracking or optimal range issue from 0 to max of the missile type.
Look ccp have all but said that they want BS weapons to be useless against smaller ships and you seem to be confirming that they are so..........
Care to show me where?
By that logic, cruisers should be useless against frigs...
So, show me the quote where they have stated this.
Less effective on smaller targets, yes, useless no...
I said "all but" and yes a lot of cruiser sized weapons are now considerably less effective against frig classes.
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Aequitas Veritas
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.11.01 19:37:00 -
[677]
Lebrata, my god... |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.01 19:39:00 -
[678]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 01/11/2008 19:40:04
Originally by: lebrata
I said "all but" and yes a lot of cruiser sized weapons are now considerably less effective and all but useless against frig classes.
Short range cruiser guns don't work at all vs interceptors (solo, ofc they work in gang) even if they have the range to hit them, or up close vs any frigate type. Fitting neutralizers is de-facto mandatory for solo now in a cruiser hull.
The disbalance between missile and gun effects only occurs at sniper ranges, because (unlike what some people think) the important part is tracking at range (rather then tracking as a absolute number) - it's virtually impossible to have any meaningful amount of angular velocity at 100km+ (and while LR guns get a tracking reduction to short range guns, it's not that great), while sig reduction always works (on top of that, target painters do not work at cruise raven ranges).
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.01 19:41:00 -
[679]
Originally by: lebrata Edited by: lebrata on 01/11/2008 19:22:18
Originally by: TZeer
Delayed damage?
And "Not having any tracking issues from 0 to the max range" have you ever used misiles?
All people have to do is get their speed up, thats it.
Delayed damage but a higher base dps, choice of dmg types and yes not tracking or optimal range issue from 0 to max of the missile type.
Look ccp have all but said that they want BS weapons to be useless against smaller ships and you seem to be confirming that they are so..........
Which really explains why every single major fleetbattle have turret based snipers instead of missilebased ones as their long range mainstay firepower.
Give me examples where cruisemissiles have dominated gang or fleetbattle engagements and I might take you seriously.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.11.01 19:45:00 -
[680]
Originally by: lebrata
I said "all but" and yes a lot of cruiser sized weapons are now considerably less effective and all but useless against frig classes.
Originally by: Cpt Branko Short range cruiser guns don't work at all vs interceptors (solo, ofc they work in gang) even if they have the range to hit them, or up close vs any frigate type.
Exactly.
Originally by: Cpt Branko The disbalance between missile and gun effects only occurs at sniper ranges, because (unlike what some people think) the important part is tracking at range (rather then tracking as a absolute number) - it's virtually impossible to have any meaningful amount of angular velocity at 100km+.
I found it easy to avoid sniper fire yesterday in my ceptor even at 190km anything over 1500ms transversal and the fully maxed mega could not hit at all and the closer i got the slower the transversal needed to be for him to miss, at tackle range he missed at under 200ms.
Originally by: Cpt Branko (and while LR guns get a tracking reduction to short range guns, it's not that great), while sig reduction always works (on top of that, target painters do not work at cruise raven ranges).
True but a TP range is considerably longer than a web..... [
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.11.01 19:52:00 -
[681]
Originally by: Hyveres
Give me examples where cruisemissiles have dominated gang or fleetbattle engagements and I might take you seriously.
http://udie.griefwatch.net/?p=campaigns
All those enough?.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.01 20:06:00 -
[682]
Originally by: lebrata
Originally by: Hyveres
Give me examples where cruisemissiles have dominated gang or fleetbattle engagements and I might take you seriously.
http://udie.griefwatch.net/?p=campaigns
All those enough?.
Ahh burn eden :)
The one and only corp that has pulled off missile tactics and since they succeed everything is balanced in your world
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.11.01 21:14:00 -
[683]
Originally by: Hyveres
Originally by: lebrata
Originally by: Hyveres
Give me examples where cruisemissiles have dominated gang or fleetbattle engagements and I might take you seriously.
http://udie.griefwatch.net/?p=campaigns
All those enough?.
Ahh burn eden :)
The one and only corp that has pulled off missile tactics and since they succeed everything is balanced in your world
It can be done is a simple fact, just because you and others lack the skill, will or both is not the games fault its yours for being either too lazy or inept.
Not the only corp either to use missile ships as dmg dealers in gang combat, if you looked past what they cannot do and focus on what they can do you would be a much better player.
Every race has bonuses mini ships made great tacklers caldari had great ewar and all around dmg...ect ect but like most lazy ppl you ignored these facts and went str8 for a nerf instead of building a good combat structure in ship classes, pilot skill and teamwork.
Well you got your balanced game muppet i hope you enjoy you all new "balanced" missiles....
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.01 22:06:00 -
[684]
In before Burn Ed... DAMN!!
Having personally been ganked by BE more than once, I can tell you that they did NOT snipe with their cruise ravens. They were more often than not 24-30km away. Meaning their delay was less than 6 seconds. They used cruise because it meant lower damage mitigation against cruiser and BC sized hulls. It was not for superior damage.
My current missile skills give me 7850m/s for a cruise raven. At the coveted 249km range of cruise missiles, it would take 32 seconds for them to reach their destination. That's a DAMN long time in fleet combat.
Furthermore, even at 120km, the DPS would be higher with a sniper boat because of the fact that transversal velocity is very low at that range. Unless I was stupid enough to use Spike L (which I can't actually use yet, thank goodness ), I could hit every target with ease at that range, no matter what their velocity. Can't say the same about cruise. ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless. |
Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.01 22:10:00 -
[685]
Because the level of teamwork required to have cruise missiles as an effective weapon system are so high that only a select few can take advantage of it.
Everyone and their grandmothers hamster can use short range and medium range turrets well without having a specialized gang setup that includes support to make your weapon systems actually do damage.
You seem to want balance based on the top few percentages that have the option of forming a specialized gang to make their weapons work. I'd rather have it functional but slightly inferior to turrets. Or as it is now on TQ , specialized for an anti cruiser support role.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.11.01 22:18:00 -
[686]
Edited by: lebrata on 01/11/2008 22:25:13
Originally by: Allen Ramses
Having personally been ganked by BE more than once, I can tell you that...blah blah dribble
Having been a member of burn eden i can tell you that they only fight at close range when numbers dictate that they can, the rest of the time they start the engagement at around 180km. And they use ravens because they are considerably more versatile than any other sniper as they can hit at max while plated and with a repper and damps fitted.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.11.01 22:24:00 -
[687]
Originally by: Hyveres Because the level of teamwork required to have cruise missiles as an effective weapon system are so high that only a select few can take advantage of it.
Nope you just need a competent tackler and a falcon, and they are good things to have in any gang tbh.
Originally by: Hyveres You seem to want balance based on the top few percentages that have the option of forming a specialized gang to make their weapons work.
If training up to be a skilled pilot, getting the most out of your races bonuses and working in a competent team is too hard for you then maybe this is not the game for you. As i mentioned having a tackler and a bit of ewar is not particularly specialized its basic pvp requirements. I know you do not need them in missions and for ratting so your delusion of uberness pops as soon as you pvp instead of pve but thats your problem not the games.
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.01 22:24:00 -
[688]
Edited by: Soporo on 01/11/2008 22:24:45
Originally by: lebrata
Blah blah blah anti-missile, anti-caldari rant Quote:
Troll posts like Lyria.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.11.01 22:27:00 -
[689]
Originally by: lebrata
Blah blah blah anti-missile, anti-caldari rant Quote:
Troll posts like Lyria.
Anti-missile?, anti-caldari?...i love caldari and missiles they are (or were if this stupid nerf goes through) the best race to use as dmg dealers in the game.
Try to read muppet it the others that say cladari and missiles suck not me.
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.01 22:29:00 -
[690]
lol troll is lol. ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless. |
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