Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Malcanis
RuffRyders Eradication Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.10.20 00:02:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Jacob Mei
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Jacob Mei
Soooo because the patient might be sick we should Euthanize him, is that what you are saying? Have you ever actually spent time in the time code bazzar?
I dont understand what you mean. Please elucidate your metaphor.
If I read your post right, just because Isk sellers might be using the time code bazzar to fuel their accounts we should throw out the whole system dispite the number of ligitimate players that use the system.
You did not read my post right.
|
Irma Phelbs
|
Posted - 2008.10.20 00:17:00 -
[32]
Originally by: AlienChild I have a genuine problem in understanding why it is a stigma to buy ISK directly but ok to buy a Gamecard then sell it for ISK in game.
Many people share the same concern about the GTC sellers sexuality than they have about the ISK buyers sexuality.
|
Mr Management
|
Posted - 2008.10.20 00:50:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Mr Management on 20/10/2008 00:51:07 Buying GTC is sanctioned by CCP because the "real life" money goes to them and not some "sweat shop".... they have stated this "numerous" times and it will not change no matter how many post's are started ...
Live with it and move on ...
|
Strill
|
Posted - 2008.10.20 01:05:00 -
[34]
As I understand, CCP is planning on making it so that low-sec mining requires you to scan for randomly generated asteroid belts. That's hopefully going to keep macro-miners at bay.
|
Lazuran
Gallente Aliastra
|
Posted - 2008.10.20 08:11:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Lazuran If you show me a way to determine whether someone is breaking the EULA, I might consider caring about it.
You're the one who said you reckoned that 80% of your GTCs went to farmers. Now either you're basing that figure on your opinion of the buyers, or your statistic is wholly rectally sourced.
You're confusing ISK farming with ISK selling again. Most ISK farmers never break the EULA themselves.
|
Lazuran
Gallente Aliastra
|
Posted - 2008.10.20 08:13:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Davina Braben Edited by: Davina Braben on 19/10/2008 23:35:53 Given that any ISK received from RMT is liable to be yoinked out of your wallet simple common sense suggests that you shouldn't sell to RMT farmers.
They're not that hard to spot.
They are hard to spot accurately and the GTC <=> ISK trading mechanism is guaranteed to be secure. If CCP took the ISK away after a GTC trade, that's be absurd and malicious.
|
Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.10.20 08:59:00 -
[37]
In short:
- GTC¦s are applied to accounts, there is no real life economic benefit beyond regular subscription cost, which is neglible individually.
You cannot sell more isk for cash then you spend on gametime. As such no dollars leave the system at the RL end of the broader gametime v isk equasion. Thus we arrive at point two:
- The GTC $¦s end up with CCP, not an uninterested third party that starts investing it in flashy cars instead of new game servers.
- There is most likely way less disruptive or EULA-violating isk-sourcing going on in the GTC carrousel then in the traditional RMT business.
- Traditional RMT businesses have done severe damages to previous MMO¦s in the past and present. The GTC system has no such illustrious history.
Now, if the basic economic differences between trading GTC for isk via the secure system and trading isk for cash via third parties still evades you, I¦m at a loss. [center] Old blog |
DjLowballer
Amarr FLASHTROOPER CORP
|
Posted - 2008.10.20 09:10:00 -
[38]
Lets assume EvE GTC go for 400-600 Mil ISK for 60 days.
As someone above listed, you only have to make an extra 10 mil per day to afford this.
So most ISK sites sell 500 mil ISK for ca 12-13$(basing all of this on the dollar)
The cost of 2 months gametime is 30$.
So an ISK seller either needs to sell ove 500 mil ISK per month per account to keep their farmer going. Or they can go to Timecode Bazaar and pay half that and reduce their upkeep.
So in the end, it seems for large scale operations ETC actually keeps farmers in the game. If CCP really wanted to make money, they would figure out an ISK/Dollar conversion rate and act as a bank themselves. More people that want it, the stronger its value goes and drives cash price up. Less people use the service you get more ISK to dollar.
Either way I have never seen a problem with buying in game currency. Never done it in EvE(I make good enough money) but in other games it was easier to just plunk down 15 minutes pay and save 4 hours gametime. I would rather everthing go through the devs though, as these shady side businesses need to go.
|
Cautet
Celestial Apocalypse Resurgency
|
Posted - 2008.10.20 09:18:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Morgan La'Chance ...in some cases are run by foreign mafias who use it as easy money to finance drug pushing, prostitution and human trafficking.
You don't need money to finance drug pushing, prostitution or human trafficking. They are all fairly profitable in and of themseleves. In fact if they were not profitable no-one would carry out these dangerous and unpleasant activities, as I doubt they are very satisfying hobbies. It's just a very silly myth that makes no real sense.
Having said this - the game allows for a nice clean method to buy and sell isk through GTC where other players will benefit and CCP will benefit - so just use GTC method and support the game rather than using a method that undermines peoples hard work.
|
Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.10.20 09:27:00 -
[40]
Originally by: DjLowballer Lets assume EvE GTC go for 400-600 Mil ISK for 60 days.
As someone above listed, you only have to make an extra 10 mil per day to afford this.
So most ISK sites sell 500 mil ISK for ca 12-13$(basing all of this on the dollar)
The cost of 2 months gametime is 30$.
So an ISK seller either needs to sell ove 500 mil ISK per month per account to keep their farmer going. Or they can go to Timecode Bazaar and pay half that and reduce their upkeep.
So in the end, it seems for large scale operations ETC actually keeps farmers in the game.
Wrong.
Isk sellers (in the RMT way), don¦t farm isk to pay their upkeep, they farm for profit. A GTC cannot constitute profit, since all it does is extend someone¦s gametime. You cannot buy food with GTC¦s.
GTC trades are direct competitors of RMT trades. An isk farmer that buys GTC¦s to extend his accounts is competing with his own business. If more of them do it, the price for gametime in isk goes up since demand for gametime increases, thus reducing their own profit rate further and further because their sell price of isk for dollars needs to be below the exchange rate of gtc¦s for isk.
Investing in GTC¦s make no sense for professional isk farmers that are in it for real profit. Wether or not they could cut cost by way of gtc¦s is irrelevant, since it would end up cuting into their profits too eventually.
[center] Old blog |
|
Sexiest Beast
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.10.20 09:27:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Lazuran I sold some (look at those character names and think about whether they were doing anything apart from farming ingame). My rough estimate is that 80% of the GTCs I sold recently went to ISK farmers.
Also, I'm pretty sure that apart from large ISK transactions, CCP doesn't really care much about the farmers, they are paying subscribers after all.
I can read this 2 ways.
1) You dont give a shit about macroers so continued to perpetuate the system and just wanted to "buy" ISK with RL money. 2) You have found a way to get around the system and used RL isk to buy ISK from a known ISK seller.
CCP legitimised the RMT with GTC sales. I can see the benefits and they have been mentioned in this thread already. However; you sir just allowed the RMT trade to continue further and directly supported a macroer. You have a choice to not sell to those characters and although the ISK would still simply be transfered in and out via other characters you could have made life harder for them.
|
Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.10.20 09:33:00 -
[42]
He¦s wrong.
He isnt selling to RMT farmers, he might however be sellign to isk farming alts that farm isk for ingame purposes.
There¦s a slight difference. People also farm with alts to support their mains. It¦s very profitable (ingame) if your alt can make more then say 250m a month. Every additional isk goes to supporting the main/corp/alliance.
It¦s also not good imo, but it¦s a far cry from RMT.
[center] Old blog |
Kazuma Saruwatari
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.10.20 09:35:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Dez Affinity GTC = CCP get the money
ISK Sellers = Other people get the money.
This.
Its CCP's game after all. -
|
Wet Ferret
|
Posted - 2008.10.20 09:37:00 -
[44]
RMTs often run their operations off cheap human labor (sweatshops), and use other illegal means of aquiring ISK like hacking and keylogging to steal accounts. Then they go and muck up the game with spam and macro farmers interfering with others' gameplay and upsetting people in general.
The above will probably NEVER go away but ISK -> GTC avoids it while diverting players attention away from RMTs at the same time, giving them less business. CCP making some money out of it is just a small bonus on top of the other benefits, IMO. Hurting RMTs business is the best part!
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Lazuran
Gallente Aliastra
|
Posted - 2008.10.20 11:12:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Sexiest Beast
Originally by: Lazuran I sold some (look at those character names and think about whether they were doing anything apart from farming ingame). My rough estimate is that 80% of the GTCs I sold recently went to ISK farmers.
Also, I'm pretty sure that apart from large ISK transactions, CCP doesn't really care much about the farmers, they are paying subscribers after all.
I can read this 2 ways.
1) You dont give a shit about macroers so continued to perpetuate the system and just wanted to "buy" ISK with RL money.
confirmed: I don't give a shit about macroers, "honest" ISK farmers, 23/7 ratters etc.
Quote:
2) You have found a way to get around the system and used RL isk to buy ISK from a known ISK seller.
No, I just "bought" ISK using the GTC<=>ISK system.
Quote:
CCP legitimised the RMT with GTC sales.
Indeed.
Quote:
I can see the benefits and they have been mentioned in this thread already. However; you sir just allowed the RMT trade to continue further and directly supported a macroer. You have a choice to not sell to those characters and although the ISK would still simply be transfered in and out via other characters you could have made life harder for them.
There is a difference between "a macroer" and a "suspected ISK farmer". I am dealing with the latter and have no means of telling whether he is a macroer, a chinese ISK farmer working for an ISK seller or just a weirdo with a funny alt name.
|
Lazuran
Gallente Aliastra
|
Posted - 2008.10.20 11:16:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
Originally by: Dez Affinity GTC = CCP get the money
ISK Sellers = Other people get the money.
This.
Its CCP's game after all.
You forget that the 1000+ farmers working for ISK sellers pay for their subscriptions too (well GTC sellers pay for them), so CCP gets money either way. They are just trying to maximize their profits by removing the ISK sold by (non-GTC) ISK sellers.
|
Lazuran
Gallente Aliastra
|
Posted - 2008.10.20 11:17:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Wet Ferret ISK -> GTC avoids it while diverting players attention away from RMTs at the same time
Er, what?
ISK => GTC *is* RMT and making a special forum section for it and providing a secure and CCP-supported transaction method for it is the opposite of "diverting players attention away from RMT".
|
Blank Protection
Insidious Existence RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.10.20 11:43:00 -
[48]
Selling and buying ISK trought the GTC`s or other methods should be perma banned tbh.
But 3 simple reasons why CCP is not going to do that.
1) CCP himself gets tons of RL cash for it and as never before they need it the most now, because Iceland is finacial broken.
2) At least trough this kind of ISK selling and buying ( even its just cheating ) CCP has an eye on it to control it.
3) Banning the ISK selling\buying will reduce active player`s with at least 45% because most of players dont pay RL cash for Eve anymore but ISK.
So complaining about till you drop death will not change anything tbh. Just accept how it all is right now.
**This Post belongs in Out of Pod Experience**
|
ShardowRhino
Caldari Legion 0f The Damned
|
Posted - 2008.10.20 12:26:00 -
[49]
Well, the thread was presented in a non-troll like fashion. it might be considered "troll bait" which can bring on the lolz. I know ive done my share of baiting them so i can beat them over the head, in the past.
As for the question the OP is asking, I have to ask if perhaps he didn't throughly define what it is he is asking. If he is asking why GTCs are fine but buying isk from gold farmers, well the answer is obviously because CCP isn't getting a piece of that action. I hate isk farmers but the idea of being able to sell a bit of your own ,earned isk excess off for a few bucks sounds kinda cool. kinda cool but against the EULA,therefore out of the question.
Now it seems as though you were trying to actually ask why doesn't ccp sell isk directly. Instead of the jumbo tron tvs at the warp gates there should be ATM machines. Would CCP have a problem with selling the isk directly to the player? I don't know if it would be a massive problem for them to actually do so but it would open up a can of worms. The alternative is to allow gtc trades with players that grinded the isk themselves. That isk would have been grinded out of the system anyways but if it would have been spent is another question. Again thats another issue of printing money that goes into wallets that never spend it vs printing that isk and having it circulated due to the trade to the gtc seller.
When it comes down to it, CCP could sell isk to players directly without a problem(to a point). However personally I am glad they went with gtc trading instead as it helps keep the population of the game up. I know how low server population can suck the fun out of a game so anything that helps keep people around is a good thing.
|
Abrynn
Minmatar CCCP INC
|
Posted - 2008.10.20 14:30:00 -
[50]
Originally by: AlienChild I have a genuine problem in understanding why it is a stigma to buy ISK directly but ok to buy a Gamecard then sell it for ISK in game.
Obviously I know where CCP stands on this - they make money from GC's but not from direct ISK sellers so they will be against direct ISK purchases, but why are many players supportive or neutral towards ISK via GC's but the same players are often vehemently against the idea of a player buying ISK directly? Besides the obvious answer: it's against the rules!
---------------------------
Now to be fair I should say what I feel about this: I personally have not bought ISK either via GC's or any other method, but generally I am neutral to slightly in favour of ISK selling/buying by GC's. Personally I find it hard to understand why there is no stigma against ISK via GC but a big stigma for ISK via $$ directly.
---------------------------
Please note this is not a "I am right, you are wrong" post and if you reply to this post please try answer the question I have posed without any personal attacks against anyone.
Simply that CCP makes no money from the isk buyers....if CCP made money like they do off of GTC's they wouldnt mind
|
|
Wet Ferret
|
Posted - 2008.10.20 20:47:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Lazuran
Originally by: Wet Ferret ISK -> GTC avoids it while diverting players attention away from RMTs at the same time
Er, what?
ISK => GTC *is* RMT and making a special forum section for it and providing a secure and CCP-supported transaction method for it is the opposite of "diverting players attention away from RMT".
No, it is not the same thing. And you know what I meant. RMT = $$$ -> ISK directly.
Also, those ISK sellers who use GTCs probably just save a lot of people from getting their accounts hacked / scammed because those organizations resort to whatever it takes to do their job cheaply. If CCP ever discontinue GTC trading it will make illegal out-of-game ISK sales become much more valuable, and the cost of a subscription will hardly make any difference.
Just what EVE needs is trial accounts spamming the forums all day with topics like "check out pics of my wife sex leg" full of links to keyloggers. It will become a reality.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Dikanal
|
Posted - 2008.10.20 21:11:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Dikanal on 20/10/2008 21:12:14
Originally by: Wet Ferret The above will probably NEVER go away!
When MMO developers realise that excessive and pointless grinding and time sinking do not make for entertaining gameplay, independent RMT and "item" shops and power leveling "services" along with E-baying will probably die out for good.
|
Wet Ferret
|
Posted - 2008.10.21 01:22:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Dikanal Edited by: Dikanal on 20/10/2008 21:12:14
Originally by: Wet Ferret The above will probably NEVER go away!
When MMO developers realise that excessive and pointless grinding and time sinking do not make for entertaining gameplay, independent RMT and "item" shops and power leveling "services" along with E-baying will probably die out for good.
MMOs aren't going to change unless human beings evolve into something else. It's the needs of players that makes MMOs the way that they are... even if those "needs" are things that aren't really fun to do. Work (grind) is something that keeps people around because they feel they've earned something and don't want to give it up.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Dikanal
|
Posted - 2008.10.21 01:27:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Wet Ferret MMOs aren't going to change unless human beings evolve into something else. It's the needs of players that makes MMOs the way that they are... even if those "needs" are things that aren't really fun to do. Work (grind) is something that keeps people around because they feel they've earned something and don't want to give it up.
Explain how people play games like counterstrike or BF2 and many other games for years that do not involve any form of grinding or achievement? Sense of community and general satisfaction with the gameplay will keep customers far more effectively.
|
Zeba
Minmatar Pator Tech School
|
Posted - 2008.10.21 01:31:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Dikanal
Originally by: Wet Ferret MMOs aren't going to change unless human beings evolve into something else. It's the needs of players that makes MMOs the way that they are... even if those "needs" are things that aren't really fun to do. Work (grind) is something that keeps people around because they feel they've earned something and don't want to give it up.
Explain how people play games like counterstrike or BF2 and many other games for years that do not involve any form of grinding or achievement? Sense of community and general satisfaction with the gameplay will keep customers far more effectively.
Lol! FPS games =/= an mmorpg. FFS I still play RTCW.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Dikanal
|
Posted - 2008.10.21 01:35:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Dikanal
Originally by: Wet Ferret MMOs aren't going to change unless human beings evolve into something else. It's the needs of players that makes MMOs the way that they are... even if those "needs" are things that aren't really fun to do. Work (grind) is something that keeps people around because they feel they've earned something and don't want to give it up.
Explain how people play games like counterstrike or BF2 and many other games for years that do not involve any form of grinding or achievement? Sense of community and general satisfaction with the gameplay will keep customers far more effectively.
Lol! FPS games =/= an mmorpg. FFS I still play RTCW.
You missed the point, Wet Ferret claimed that games needed grind and timesinks to hold players for a long term.
|
Taedrin
Gallente Celestial Ascension Tenth Legion
|
Posted - 2008.10.21 01:37:00 -
[57]
Well, presuming that the OP is not a troll (as he would like me to believe), I will give him the benefit of the doubt.
A lot of us old school players remember what Yantis did to the EQ economy. It did horrible things. Allegations were made that Yantis used exploits to duplicate plat, and then intentionally manipulated what little market there was in EQ to drive up prices by using bots to automatically purchase high demand items that fell below a certain point. He did this to make sure that the ONLY way to compete in EQ was to purchase plat from him.
So you can understand that a lot of us don't even really like the idea of using GTCs to convert real life cash to ISK. However, GTCs have the unique attribute that they can only have REAL value if they are used. Or in other words, the number of GTCs that can be sold for ISK each month is limited to the number of players who need to extend their playtime on EVE that month.
To the people who believe that GTCs are OK, but buying ISK direct is not, this is the reason. There is a limit to the number of GTCs that can be sold in a month, while there isn't a limit to the amount of ISK that can be bought in a month (well, there are, but they are just much, much higher).
I fall in the camp that CCP decides what happens in their game. It's their baby, and if we want to play on their server, we obey their rules. Because CCP said that buying ISK is wrong, it is therefore wrong. Because CCP said GTCs are fine, selling GTCs for ISK is fine.
Still other believe that anything goes, and others believe that both methods are unethical.
|
Zeba
Minmatar Pator Tech School
|
Posted - 2008.10.21 01:41:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Dikanal You missed the point, Wet Ferret claimed that games needed grind and timesinks to hold players for a long term.
Point taken. I guess you really need to 'grind' your relexes and map knowledge to score the top points in an fps.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Wet Ferret
|
Posted - 2008.10.21 02:26:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Dikanal You missed the point, Wet Ferret claimed that games needed grind and timesinks to hold players for a long term.
Point taken. I guess you really need to 'grind' your relexes and map knowledge to score the top points in an fps.
You already gave the correct answer. They aren't MMOs.
I completely understand that people will play a game just because it's fun. But good luck keeping the world populated consistently if there's no mechanism in place to keep people playing for long periods of time. "Fun" is so subjective, anyway, many people get bored very quickly doing the same thing even if it is fun at first. How to keep them playing? By giving them something that they must do to get something else... I don't like it any more than you do but that's the way it is.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Molly Mayhem
|
Posted - 2008.10.21 03:08:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Tennoku It hurts the economy for people who don't make EVE their job.
This.
Currency inflation ruins games for casual players more than just about anything else. Think about it, if a sizable chunk of the population is buying ISK then the money is worth less to them than it is to you, and in turn they pay more for the same items because they don't value ISK as highly as you do. Also, the ISK sold to them has to come from somewhere - in a competitive market system ISK consumed to be re-sold to players is ISK that normal players don't have access to, unless they pay for it..
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |