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Brother Welcome
Amarr Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2008.10.20 16:22:00 -
[1]
I raised this discussion in the wrong place, and it was locked: which tbh is fair enough.
I wanted to discuss Eve 2, but it seems that I mystified several people. Why can't Eve just evolve to be better? Why would CCP ever need to consider making Eve2?
Well, so far as I can ascertain the current game gestalt is not ultimately salvageable. It can be patched and patched and patched, but a clean slate will allow a faster trajectory toward a game benefiting from the profound knowledge gained from Eve1.
The nano-nerf seems to exemplify this point. Trying to fix the game is becoming difficult. Someone elsewhere said they believe Eve subs are falling. I don't know if that's true today, but all videogames have so far had a limited life-span, including MMOs, so perhaps it soon will be true.
A friend observed that this might herald an excellent age where the devs are free to make inspired changes as management focus shifts onto other products. And then what?
Eve2!
Why do I write this random stuff? Only in the hope of directing dev's mind in directions I might personally benefit from
-vk
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.10.20 16:32:00 -
[2]
Copypasta from the old (locked) thread:
EVE2 will never be developed as the EVE have will simply be improved upon further. A second EVE running parallel to this EVE would not add more income, but just split the current market niche. The Vampire game however will attract a different clientFle and as such adding a second source of income not rivaling their first one. Try using some common sense next time.
-------- Ideas for: Mining
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Brother Welcome
Amarr Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2008.10.20 17:08:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Brother Welcome on 20/10/2008 17:12:37
Originally by: Abrazzar Copypasta from the old (locked) thread:
EVE2 will never be developed as the EVE have will simply be improved upon further. A second EVE running parallel to this EVE would not add more income, but just split the current market niche. The Vampire game however will attract a different clientFle and as such adding a second source of income not rivaling their first one. Try using some common sense next time.
I agree with you that a new spaceship game will need to offer features that are more exciting to players than Eve1 in order to succeed. However, I can see where our analysis diverges.
Mine is predicated upon Eve becoming inevitably less competitive over time. That is to say, less exciting to players relative to other games that they equally have access to. I believe there are hints now that Eve has peaked and is on a leisurely downward trend. That isn't doomsaying! I would predict years before Eve starts to feel empty, and in the near future short upsurges related to new feature releases.
If my prediction is correct, then that means Eve must one day be replaced; but by what? Should CCP let another company take the market from them? Spaceship games are niche, but even so the market is still clearly big enough to yield an awful lot of money, especially if you can be sure of being #1.
I believe that is what CCP can be sure of that. The time will inevitably come when a better game than Eve can be offered. Please explain the 'common sense' in CCP not offering that game?
The only argument one can really make is timing. CCP might feel Eve2 shouldn't start for a few more years. Since I like Eve and am optimistic that the knowledge CCP's designers now have will lead to a terrific follow-up, I want to push for that to be sooner than later, and to try my best to discourage putting any part of my subs toward. (Not that those might be going to be much more, anyway )
-vk
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ShadowDraqon
Awesome Industries Group
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Posted - 2008.10.20 17:15:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Brother Welcome The time will inevitably come when a better game than Eve can be offered. Please explain the 'common sense' in CCP not offering that game?
Because EVE is still alive? So you are saying that because EVE will eventually disappear, they should make a replacement game right now? ? ______________________ I got killed for my kindness no, rly |
Brother Welcome
Amarr Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2008.10.20 17:21:00 -
[5]
Originally by: ShadowDraqon
Originally by: Brother Welcome The time will inevitably come when a better game than Eve can be offered. Please explain the 'common sense' in CCP not offering that game?
Because EVE is still alive? So you are saying that because EVE will eventually disappear, they should make a replacement game right now? ?
I do take your point about timing. CCP may believe they have a window where there is virtue in investing in another product, which if it pays off will then produce more money to put into Eve 2. That's a win-win situation.
They should start designing it now, though, and testing with abstract prototypes some of the systemic elements like territory capture. Perhaps they are?! It would delight me to know part of my subs were going toward that.
-vk
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Brother Welcome
Amarr Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2008.10.20 17:28:00 -
[6]
Another point though is that I am also predicting that to make a competitive walking-around game will prove more costly to CCP than they might anticipate due to the need to develop new design and production skills.
I suppose my general feeling with games-making is that companies have very often succeeded by making what they are good at, rather than trying to compete with other companies in areas where those other companies already hold advantages.
I'm sure that's not universally true, but it bears remembering. EA in particular channel their teams to keep on making what they already know how to deliver.
-vk
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ShadowDraqon
Awesome Industries Group
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Posted - 2008.10.20 17:36:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Brother Welcome I do take your point about timing. CCP may believe they have a window where there is virtue in investing in another product, which if it pays off will then produce more money to put into Eve 2. That's a win-win situation.
They should start designing it now, though, and testing with abstract prototypes some of the systemic elements like territory capture. Perhaps they are?! It would delight me to know part of my subs were going toward that.
-vk
How about putting the time, money and manpower into "EVE 1" instead of using it on making a game to replace it because it stopped evolving because they weren't focusing on it because they were busy making a new game to replace it because...
see?
and btw, stop being so pessimistic ______________________ I got killed for my kindness no, rly |
Lilith Order
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Posted - 2008.10.20 17:42:00 -
[8]
The biggest problem with an Eve 2, like an EQ2 or a PS 2 for that matter is it robs from one and gives to the other and little in terms of new blood shows up.
I can think of a million reasons to have Eve2. None make CCP more money though. |
Brother Welcome
Amarr Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2008.10.20 19:47:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Lilith Order The biggest problem with an Eve 2, like an EQ2 or a PS 2 for that matter is it robs from one and gives to the other and little in terms of new blood shows up.
I can think of a million reasons to have Eve2. None make CCP more money though.
You put that well. Doesn't that mean though, that those who stick with Eve must wait until the dying of the light before they'll see the next game?
Well, okay, I'll buy that. Depending on how a certain fiasco pans out I hope to be here to see it. If not, I'll go encourage some other spaceship game-makers to do silly things.
-vk
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Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2008.10.20 20:17:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Brother Welcome It can be patched and patched and patched, but a clean slate will allow a faster trajectory toward a game benefiting from the profound knowledge gained from Eve1.
StacklessIO is completely new network code integrated into the current server and client. Not a patch to the old network code.
Trinity is a completely new graphics engine. Not the old engine patched up.
Just 2 examples where CCP started with a clean slate. There are more. If you go by graphic engines, we're playing EVE 3. If you go by server improvements, software and hardware, we're playing EVE 5 or 6.
Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
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ShadowDraqon
Awesome Industries Group
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Posted - 2008.10.20 20:54:00 -
[11]
In full honesty, you should stop troubling yourself over this. EVE isn't going anywhere in the immediately foreseeable future. It's an amazing, immersing game built up around a deep, well thought out, solid backstory. It has a dedicated player base and is in constant development. Go mine veldspar or blow s**t up, there's nothing to worry about.
Besides, if EVE disappears, then why make it AGAIN? Wasn't there a reason it disappeared? When EVE eventually fades away, I'll trust CCP to come up with a new, exiting universe for us to explore, build up and conquer, instead of being unoriginal and recycling a dead idea and putting "2" on it.
Now, let this argument rest and fade away, and turn ourselves to more profitable/amusing ventures. ______________________ I got killed for my kindness no, rly |
Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
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Posted - 2008.10.20 21:07:00 -
[12]
Eve 2 makes no sense under CCP's development model. Rather than release lots of boxes they just do free downloadable patches. Or put another way, we would be on Eve 4 or 5 with the nano patch in terms of other MMOGs.
Also bear in mind that whatever feature they come up with, new game or not, there will be downsides. It's simply not possible to make a 'perfect' game as one persons awesome feature is another persons annoying problem. For example, a lot of people think destroyable ships are great because it creates a real player economy, others (including me) blame it for encouraging blobs and generally making people not to balls to the wall all the time. I agree the nano patch is screwed up but that has more to do with stubbornness than procedural difficulty or anything (as Ive said umpteen times elsewhere the nano problem is a simple problem with a simple solution). _________________ [IMAGE REMOVED] -- aka Cpt Bogus -- Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
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Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.10.21 00:28:00 -
[13]
Well arent we technically playing eve 5 right now?
Pre Order your Sisters of Eve ship today!!! |
Brother Welcome
Amarr Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2008.10.21 15:58:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Nova Fox Well arent we technically playing eve 5 right now?
First let me say I agree with Shadowdragon and others that now is not really the time to discuss Eve2. Yes, I was wrong. I admit it.
On the subject of whether Eve1 can be patched all the way to Eve2, there I have residual doubts. I predict that there will one day be an Eve2, if only because it will ultimately prove faster to work from a tabula rasa than fix what's there. I hope I am there to see it, although sadly I believe now that I will not be.
So that would be Eve1.5 we're playing, if you want to count it that way
-vk
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Ackuula
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Posted - 2008.10.21 16:28:00 -
[15]
EVE-2 is already in production if you haven't already noticed. Though you'll have to go work for a RW space agency such as NASA to see it.
Give it a couple of more years as the space race finally takes off. I guarantee there'll be real time C2 remote mining with people sitting at their computers mining Veld or swiping ore from each others "cans"
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Nekopyat
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:01:00 -
[16]
Originally by: ShadowDraqon Are saying that because EVE will eventually disappear, they should make a replacement game right now?
Yes, they should start now, or at least pretty soon.
In software engineering there is the concept of 'technical debt'. As a codebase ages, regardless of how often you refractor it, the cost of adding features slowly increases as the complexity of integrating/testing them goes up.
At some point you hit a 50/50 mark where you are spending over half your energy dealing overhead from working in the existing codebase. With EA and (so far it looks like) QR, you can really start to see this kicking in. Each feature takes longer and is harder to implement and debug, thus smaller releases that start having more re-factors then features in them.
Eventually you reach a point where you have to scrap and start over. Starting over early and having something ready when you hit this point is expensive but is a good long term decision. As long as CCP resists second-system syndrome they could potentially take what they learned from EvE and implement a more proper game from the ground up rather then this mess of half-completed features that we have grown to love.
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Chrocell
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:28:00 -
[17]
CCP should never create a product to compete with Eve. Instead they should mine their IP by creating an FPS or RTS based on their already created content. I would totaly buy an RTS/FPS that had some kind of prequal story line. Not to mention if it was well done it could result in more money by selling the game and additional subscriptions to Eve. Win-Win.
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Nekopyat
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Posted - 2008.10.22 01:29:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Chrocell CCP should never create a product to compete with Eve. Instead they should mine their IP by creating an FPS or RTS based on their already created content. I would totaly buy an RTS/FPS that had some kind of prequal story line. Not to mention if it was well done it could result in more money by selling the game and additional subscriptions to Eve. Win-Win.
I disagree. Building a product to compete with your own, if properly timed (avoid the Osborn effect), it can be one of the best ways to keep a product line going long term.
Branching IP can be dangerous and expensive for a small company. It always sounds like a good idea from the outside, but internally such projects can be a nightmare and eat up more resources then they are worth...
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Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.10.22 02:33:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Nekopyat
Originally by: Chrocell CCP should never create a product to compete with Eve. Instead they should mine their IP by creating an FPS or RTS based on their already created content. I would totaly buy an RTS/FPS that had some kind of prequal story line. Not to mention if it was well done it could result in more money by selling the game and additional subscriptions to Eve. Win-Win.
I disagree. Building a product to compete with your own, if properly timed (avoid the Osborn effect), it can be one of the best ways to keep a product line going long term.
Branching IP can be dangerous and expensive for a small company. It always sounds like a good idea from the outside, but internally such projects can be a nightmare and eat up more resources then they are worth...
Which is why they are going to a well established IP from white wolf codeveloping an mmo there. I am quite sure there are plenty of goths and furries wanting to play the other game if they ever get word of it. Emos may not be invited though
Pre Order your Sisters of Eve ship today!!! |
Nekopyat
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Posted - 2008.10.22 03:26:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Nova Fox Which is why they are going to a well established IP from white wolf codeveloping an mmo there. I am quite sure there are plenty of goths and furries wanting to play the other game if they ever get word of it. Emos may not be invited though
Which is risk+risk. Someone else's IP, lack of internal experience, and an existing franchise to support.
So if they complete the project, and it is sufficiently compelling to actually get enough goths playing (it doesn't sound very furry focused), then it might pay off. But those are both pretty big ifs for the moment, esp if they are going to keep having to throw resources at EvE just to keep up the pace.
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Darth Skorpius
The Crow Inc. Hell's Spawn
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Posted - 2008.10.22 04:27:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Nekopyat
Originally by: ShadowDraqon Are saying that because EVE will eventually disappear, they should make a replacement game right now?
Yes, they should start now, or at least pretty soon.
In software engineering there is the concept of 'technical debt'. As a codebase ages, regardless of how often you refractor it, the cost of adding features slowly increases as the complexity of integrating/testing them goes up.
At some point you hit a 50/50 mark where you are spending over half your energy dealing overhead from working in the existing codebase. With EA and (so far it looks like) QR, you can really start to see this kicking in. Each feature takes longer and is harder to implement and debug, thus smaller releases that start having more re-factors then features in them.
Eventually you reach a point where you have to scrap and start over. Starting over early and having something ready when you hit this point is expensive but is a good long term decision. As long as CCP resists second-system syndrome they could potentially take what they learned from EvE and implement a more proper game from the ground up rather then this mess of half-completed features that we have grown to love.
no, what they should do is completely rewrite the exsisting codebase to make it less complex and easier to work with and reduce the overhead of working with it in addition to making it more stable. and while they are doing that, they should look into making the new codebase easier to work with and add to so that you dont have to rewrite it as often.
then rather than having to make a sequal because the overheads of updating the orginal become too high. it also means that exsisting players dont have to start again and the story ideas that would have gone to the sequal can instead be applied to the exsisting game.
bunnies stole my sig so i have ot make a new one |
Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.10.22 07:19:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Nekopyat
Originally by: Nova Fox Which is why they are going to a well established IP from white wolf codeveloping an mmo there. I am quite sure there are plenty of goths and furries wanting to play the other game if they ever get word of it. Emos may not be invited though
Which is risk+risk. Someone else's IP, lack of internal experience, and an existing franchise to support.
So if they complete the project, and it is sufficiently compelling to actually get enough goths playing (it doesn't sound very furry focused), then it might pay off. But those are both pretty big ifs for the moment, esp if they are going to keep having to throw resources at EvE just to keep up the pace.
There are alot of were animals in WoD, and I mean tonns like what 24 different casts or something like that including the standard were wolf and kitsune.
Pre Order your Sisters of Eve ship today!!! |
Kobushi
OCForums
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Posted - 2008.10.23 05:18:00 -
[23]
Actually you are currently playing Eve 9 and eve 10 is coming december/january.
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