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Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.10.21 22:18:00 -
[31]
I don't disagree with any of it, however I would add
g) In most situations (as situations rarely occur at these boundaries where you are not quite hitting, more normally you are or you aren't), this change will not be large enough to make a difference, it will under certain circumstances make a difference, but I don't think those circumstances represent enough of the time under fire in a fight to be of concern to you.
Incidentally, there is suspicion the turret formula is being changed - though It isn't clear what to yet, but presumably something to allow blasters to retain their <10km supremacy, which they previously required the 90% webs for.
Does this now answer your concerns?
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.10.21 22:24:00 -
[32]
My last post here for you troll: and SO WHAT?
Turrets will hit more often so will missiles. You wanted nerf? you got nerf - you should have thought about this BEFORE you opened your stupid mouth crying to nerf everything.
Adapt or die.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.10.21 22:32:00 -
[33]
Quote: Logic A-F
Although the logic is sound enough, I think you're hugely overestimating its significance. I don't see it as an issue in the slightest.
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Knawt Ongrid
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Posted - 2008.10.21 22:41:00 -
[34]
You know why missiles are getting revamped? Because the devs saw how they became way too powerful with the speed nerf changes on the test server. Hmm, devs didn't see a need to change railguns.
Still waiting for you to display any experience with turrets, let alone missiles or the test server.
However, you can call people morons . . . and use big font. So you surely win arguments. Gogo Yak.
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.21 22:43:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire My last post here for you troll: and SO WHAT?
Turrets will hit more often so will missiles. You wanted nerf? you got nerf - you should have thought about this BEFORE you opened your stupid mouth crying to nerf everything.
Adapt or die.
Ever heard that missiles are going to be changed, exactly because of the speed nerf, so that they don't hit small/fast targets as good as before ? You obviously have no clue of what is happening around you and try to compensate this with crappy smacktalk. Get lost, moron.
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Koyama Ise
Caldari Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon
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Posted - 2008.10.21 22:43:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Koyama Ise on 21/10/2008 22:45:39 Logic (Yes I did shift enter this time...)
Just because missles can't do things turrets can do makes them underpowered. From the sounds of things an inty going at it's... max... speed... of 4km... *cries* can still be damaged by missles now when that intie is orbiting relatively close to the turret ship the turret ship won't be able to track it, But this only affects missiles in the sense that they have to travel less distance. Now am I saying it's perfectly blananced? No and it probably isn't but what I am saying is if they (CCP) wanted missles to be exactly as effective in every situation as turrets they would have scrapped the model for missiles we use now and given them turret mechanics.
ninja edit: *Sniff* *Sniff* Is that burning troll smell? ------ FIX THE BLOODY OVERVIEW ALREADY! SPEED NERF! RUN FOR THE HILLS! |
Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.10.21 23:07:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Originally by: Deva Blackfire My last post here for you troll: and SO WHAT?
Turrets will hit more often so will missiles. You wanted nerf? you got nerf - you should have thought about this BEFORE you opened your stupid mouth crying to nerf everything.
Adapt or die.
Ever heard that missiles are going to be changed, exactly because of the speed nerf, so that they don't hit small/fast targets as good as before ? You obviously have no clue of what is happening around you and try to compensate this with crappy smacktalk. Get lost, moron.
They do 0 damage currently to fast ships, their damage against fast ships is actually getting buffed.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.10.21 23:32:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Ever heard that missiles are going to be changed, exactly because of the speed nerf, so that they don't hit small/fast targets as good as before ? You obviously have no clue of what is happening around you and try to compensate this with crappy smacktalk. Get lost, moron.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.10.21 23:33:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Originally by: Deva Blackfire My last post here for you troll: and SO WHAT?
Turrets will hit more often so will missiles. You wanted nerf? you got nerf - you should have thought about this BEFORE you opened your stupid mouth crying to nerf everything.
Adapt or die.
Ever heard that missiles are going to be changed, exactly because of the speed nerf, so that they don't hit small/fast targets as good as before ? You obviously have no clue of what is happening around you and try to compensate this with crappy smacktalk. Get lost, moron.
Guess it wont be last then ******. I wonder how long did you spend on sisi or TQ actually playing the game. But doesnt matter - answer will be NOT ENOUGH. Missiles hit fast targets around 7500% better (if not more) than before. Hits on target going 3-5km/s went from 2 to around 150(vaga). Hits on MWDing ceptors went from 0 to around 120 (which is infinite-fold increase). So stfu before you start barking at someone who actually plays this game.
Hitting small targets? Damage is a bit reduced but SO WHAT? Oh yes i forgot - you are caldari newb who needs to hit for full damage everytime. Welcome back to like 3 YEAR AGO! If missiles hit they dealt full damage, but missiles were prettyslow back then thus they almost never catched up targets. This was changed into current (TQ) system, which was still not enough for newbs like you. So you got your nano nerf so missiles can hit fast ships. Do you think there would be only boost to missiles? No - EVERY system has its drawbacks. Now missiles got insanely good vs fast targets (where turrets are shit) but instead lost an ability to hit smaller targets (where turrets after reducing transversal velocity still rock).
If you dont like it maybe train for guns? As caldari i think you have most of sniper railships in game. So seriously - get a grip or dont post at all. Because you dont know shit.
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.21 23:52:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Missiles hit fast targets around 7500% better (if not more) than before.
Lol ?
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.10.21 23:54:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Missiles hit fast targets around 7500% better (if not more) than before.
Lol ?
Welcome to world of maths
before: 2 damage on vaga after:150 damage per missile
increase 75x = 7500%
So laugh at your own inability to use basic maths.
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.22 00:22:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Missiles hit fast targets around 7500% better (if not more) than before.
Lol ?
Welcome to world of maths
before: 2 damage on vaga after:150 damage per missile
increase 75x = 7500%
So laugh at your own inability to use basic maths.
Your maths fail because you didn't give any details how fast the ship was going when you hit it with 2 and with 150, what missiles you were using on tq and on sisi, what setup, rigs or implants etc. For a comparison everthing must be the same, same ships fittings and implants, same speed. I seriously doubt that you made an accurate comarison here.
Also the statement "Missiles hit fast targets around 7500% better (if not more) than before." can't be true. If it were true, i'd hit your vagabond with 1500 if i'd hit it with 20 before, according to your "world of maths".
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.22 00:33:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Captator
They do 0 damage currently to fast ships, their damage against fast ships is actually getting buffed.
this. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.10.22 00:34:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 22/10/2008 00:35:54 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 22/10/2008 00:35:09 Everything was exactly the same. Maxskilled (hac4) cerb, t1 scourges, vaga flying around 3,5km/s. So where is your "test" now? or anything that comes from sisi and not from your thought off stories?
And yea - you would hit him for 1500 IF you hit him for 20 before. So that means you never actually engaged vaga on TQ - thus you have no clue what you are talking about.
Also it doesnt matter if damage was increased 75x or 2x. It was INCREASED what you DENIED.
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Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.10.22 00:53:00 -
[45]
I predict a sharp increase in sales of tracking disruptors
Pre Order your Sisters of Eve ship today!!! |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.22 01:18:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Nova Fox I predict a sharp increase in sales of tracking disruptors
Or you can just jam em with your hordes of falcons and be done with it. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.10.22 01:20:00 -
[47]
Dont nerf falcons yet - im just finishing training jamming skills on alt - i want to have my own "solo pvp vid" too :)
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.22 01:28:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Dont nerf falcons yet - im just finishing training jamming skills on alt - i want to have my own "solo pvp vid" too :)
Yes but soon! ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.10.22 11:04:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Dont nerf falcons yet - im just finishing training jamming skills on alt - i want to have my own "solo pvp vid" too :)
I think ECM will eventually lose the range it has but it should remain around sniper range.
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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.10.22 11:08:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Veldya on 22/10/2008 11:09:44
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Everything was exactly the same. Maxskilled (hac4) cerb, t1 scourges, vaga flying around 3,5km/s. So where is your "test" now? or anything that comes from sisi and not from your thought off stories?
And yea - you would hit him for 1500 IF you hit him for 20 before. So that means you never actually engaged vaga on TQ - thus you have no clue what you are talking about.
Also it doesnt matter if damage was increased 75x or 2x. It was INCREASED what you DENIED.
Are you sure your Vega was moving? Heavies have an explosion velocity of 108m/sec. :P
Ligher missile damage will be increased overall, it had to because the small ship specialized weapon were hitting for no damage. But I think the cruise in particular against smaller targets will be less useful, to the point it will make stealth bombers ineffective unless they change SB bonuses.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.10.22 11:23:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Veldya
Are you sure your Vega was moving? Heavies have an explosion velocity of 108m/sec. :P
Tell me - are you stupid or just ignorant? Or maybe you never went to sisi? Missile damage formula was changed a LOT and you can get higher damage even if ship moves too fast - all you need is his signature to be high enough. Thus vaga with MWD gets hit way more than vaga with AB - mostly because of signature radius boost.
Compared to TQ AB vaga will be hit about the same or maybe just tad less (cant remember TQ AB vaga speeds now - not like anyone used them) but MWD vagas will be hit for much more.
Quote:
Ligher missile damage will be increased overall, it had to because the small ship specialized weapon were hitting for no damage. But I think the cruise in particular against smaller targets will be less useful, to the point it will make stealth bombers ineffective unless they change SB bonuses.
There is 1 major factor that makes cruises useless vs frigs - explosion radius. But bombers have natural explo radius reduction which should help deal more damage to frigs. Not sure how it changes compared to TQ vs AB and immobile ship, but vs MWD ship it will be almost or instapop.
Light missiles/rockets should still deal almost same damage to targets + be able to kill 5km/s ones w/o any problems.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.10.22 11:33:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 22/10/2008 11:35:10
Originally by: Veldya Edited by: Veldya on 22/10/2008 11:09:44
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Everything was exactly the same. Maxskilled (hac4) cerb, t1 scourges, vaga flying around 3,5km/s. So where is your "test" now? or anything that comes from sisi and not from your thought off stories?
And yea - you would hit him for 1500 IF you hit him for 20 before. So that means you never actually engaged vaga on TQ - thus you have no clue what you are talking about.
Also it doesnt matter if damage was increased 75x or 2x. It was INCREASED what you DENIED.
Are you sure your Vega was moving? Heavies have an explosion velocity of 108m/sec. :P
If it's got signature radius larger then explosion radius - which it will, by a factor of 10+, when MWD-ing, it boosts the damage. New missile damage formula. Give it a test on SISI, you will now do lots of damage to that Vagabond.
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Light missiles/rockets should still deal almost same damage to targets + be able to kill 5km/s ones w/o any problems.
Actually rockets suffer a very noticeable damage reduction when fired on afterburning frigates, making them a very bad weapon system to use (as they don't get their sig reduced by the precision skill like LMs do). HAMs have the same issue when shooting non-MWDing cruisers/HACs, 166m sig radius and not modified by precision skill.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.10.22 11:55:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Veldya on 22/10/2008 11:59:28
Originally by: Cpt Branko
If it's got signature radius larger then explosion radius - which it will, by a factor of 10+, when MWD-ing, it boosts the damage. New missile damage formula. Give it a test on SISI, you will now do lots of damage to that Vagabond.
I don't have a vaga but can test in another small ship. There are two checks with missiles, signature radius vs explosion radius and velocity vs explosion velocity.
Actually, testing is pointless because CCP refuse to give out the math or intent behind the changes so we don't know if what is on SISI is just bugged or not.
Previous mechanics, being MWDed would blow up the Vaga's signature radius so there would be no damage reduction based on that but what was killing missile damage previously is Velocity vs Explosion Velocity.
Current Heavies have an EV of 750, with current speeds it makes them hit for 0 even if they do catch up. On SISI they changed EV down to 108 and the last patch lowered it down to 81. I just don't know what the math is doing with 81m/s EV vs 3000+m/s V. Either their formula is borked or there is some mongoloid formula which I am not going to bother trying to figure out.
So it was/is either bugged or there is no logic to the current system based on previous mechanics. Either way, light missiles are intented to damage small ships, medium missiles medium ships and large missiles large ships. I am more interested to seeing the test result difference between heavy missiles and medium turrets on the same vaga.
The speed mitigation aspect I would imagine was just not working right. It is unlikely to remain as is.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.10.22 12:14:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 22/10/2008 12:16:08
Originally by: Veldya
There are two checks with missiles, signature radius vs explosion radius and velocity vs explosion velocity.
They changed it. I'll try to link it for you, someone figured out how it works and tested it.
New missile damage formula
Basically, if you outrun explosion velocity BUT your signature radius is way over explosion radius, it counteracts that.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.22 12:51:00 -
[55]
That's a complete change on how missiles work then, if a huge sig radius nullifies the velocity explosion penalty, missile damage is now similar to turrets. With turrets sig radius and tracking are combined in one formula, with missiles sig radius and explo velocity were not connected, if this is going to change it might be a nice boost for missiles. Of course we then want explo velocity reduction modules for low and medslot aswell, similar to the tracking modules that turrets have.
However, i just did some tests on the testserver with a cerberus and a vagabond. My setup was 2x BCS II, all damage-relevant missile skills at 5, "Target Navigation Prediction" at 5, ZMS1000 implant (5% explo velocity bonus), t1 scourge HM. The Vagabond was moving between 2.2k and 2.9k. The damage was usually around 115-134, when he got to 2900+ it was slightly below 100. While this test showed that the number 150 on 3.5km/s given from Deva is not realistic, it also looks like heavy missiles were boosted in general due to that new formula. This isn't necessarily true for battelship-sized missiles though. I will have to test cruise missiles against fast cruisers later, but from what i heard from others they are worse now against small targets than on TQ.
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Azuse
Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests Pure.
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Posted - 2008.10.22 13:32:00 -
[56]
Umm, so what you just said is exactly what the gms said they were goign to do with them no? Med weapon is best against med target? -------------------------
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.10.22 13:37:00 -
[57]
I was running 3x BCU cerb with 5% rof and 5% damage implants (now i checked that i had my carebearing clone on). And yes its quite possible CCP is still tweaking numbers - but it doesnt matter. Damage is WAY higher than it was previously and disables any means of speedtanking missiles when using MWD.
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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.10.22 13:41:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 22/10/2008 12:16:08
Originally by: Veldya
There are two checks with missiles, signature radius vs explosion radius and velocity vs explosion velocity.
They changed it. I'll try to link it for you, someone figured out how it works and tested it.
New missile damage formula
Basically, if you outrun explosion velocity BUT your signature radius is way over explosion radius, it counteracts that.
Thanks for that, now that we have a working forumla you can look at the current parameters and look at the changes.
Kinda disturbing how that guy figured the formula out...
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Erik Legant
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Posted - 2008.10.22 14:07:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba ... What will stop a railgun mega with tracking mods and rigs from insta-popping frigs or dealing full damage to cruisers, since they can't orbit as fast as before. ...
They can already do it.
Everyone learned in school that the circumference = Pi x 2 x radius . And you may have learned that Pi x 2 radians equals 360¦. Then, perfect_tracking = transversal_speed / distance .
So, if the interceptor I'd like to shoot down goes 1/3 slower and if I try to shoot him from 50kms with my megathron w railguns, the slower speed have 5 times less an effect than from 10kms (a range where a BS shooting an interceptor have zero probability to hit, anyway).
In fact, I doesn't have any effect at all under web range, too. Because the stasis webifiers lose 1/3 of efficiency so the interceptor will go as fast under a web as it goes today (if its MWD is not disabled by a warp scrambler).
If you followed my logic, the only effect that the nerf of the speed will have is for short range turrets able to shoot outside of web range, like ACs on some ships or more likely the amarr pulse lasers loaded with scorch. NERF !!!!!!
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Edited by: Yakia TovilToba on 21/10/2008 22:08:53 b) A significant lower speed after the speednerf will reduce the traversal velocity of your targets.
Speed is the absolute value of the velocity which is a vector. Please, stick to the speed.
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Edited by: Yakia TovilToba on 21/10/2008 22:08:53 f) Conclusion: your turrets will now hit in more situations than before ...
Yes, turrets will hit a little more often. But it's not the megathron with railguns that will reap the greatest benefit of that speed nerf.
Leave our battleship quiet, please. -- Erik |
Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.10.22 14:07:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire I was running 3x BCU cerb with 5% rof and 5% damage implants (now i checked that i had my carebearing clone on). And yes its quite possible CCP is still tweaking numbers - but it doesnt matter. Damage is WAY higher than it was previously and disables any means of speedtanking missiles when using MWD.
You would have taken far less damage if you were using an AB.
Using the formula provided below with the new SISI missile values, with the further decreased missile explosion velocities.
Vaga using just 3x Overdrive IIs and an AB with max skills will be doing 1265m/s (current 1592), with a MWD will be going 3681m/s (current 4667).
Cerb with scourge heavy missiles inflicts 257 max damage (both SISI and TQ), damage is reduced to 97.69 while using MWD and reduced to 59.74 when using AB. This is damage before resists. Vaga has a stock 70% kinetic shield resist so the damage is 29.307 when MWDing and 17.922 when ABing.
Using speed alone you have reduced the damage by 89% when MWDing and 93% when ABing. Given it is a medium weapon vs medium ship the damage reduction is probably too much if anything. It would take the Cerb 115 missiles to knock just the shield out assuming it didn't regenerate.
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