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Xori Ruscuv
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.21 19:54:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 21/10/2008 19:54:22 http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20081021/ap_on_hi_te/eu_netherlands_virtual_theft
Quote: AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - A Dutch court has convicted two youths of theft for stealing virtual items in a computer game and sentenced them to community service.
Only a handful of such cases have been heard in the world, and they have reached varying conclusions about the legal status of "virtual goods."
The Leeuwarden District Court says the culprits, 15 and 14 years old, coerced a 13-year-old boy into transferring a "virtual amulet and a virtual mask" from the online adventure game RuneScape to their game accounts.
"These virtual goods are goods (under Dutch law), so this is theft," the court said Tuesday in a summary of its ruling.
Identities of the minors were not released.
The 15-year-old was sentenced to 200 hours service, and the 14-year-old to 160 hours.
WTF? So these items weren't hacked, they were scammed... *facepalm* |
Dirk Magnum
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.10.21 19:56:00 -
[2]
Friggin lame. Is this EU law or just Dutch?
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Xori Ruscuv
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:03:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 21/10/2008 20:03:12
Originally by: Dirk Magnum Friggin lame. Is this EU law or just Dutch?
I have no idea, I was hoping someone here might know more details. I wasn't at all aware of this case until I saw this news article... though the text of the article seems to declare it was Dutch law.
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Verone
Gallente Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:03:00 -
[4]
haha, how pathetic.
\o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
Gordon Marinius
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:04:00 -
[5]
I understand the morality of punishing them for theft. But I greatly question the legality of it. _______________
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Verone
Gallente Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:11:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Gordon Marinius I understand the morality of punishing them for theft. But I greatly question the legality of it.
I don't understand the morality of punishing them for theft. They're kids, and haven't stolen anything.
What next? Are we going to get arrested for shooting police officers and stealing cars in Grand Theft Auto IV?
\o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
Dirk Magnum
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:11:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 21/10/2008 20:12:40
tbh some of the Runescape rules are laughably emasculated compared to Eve's. Here's Runescape's take on "item scamming".
Originally by: http://www.runescape.com/kbase/view.ws?guid=rule_2_item_scamming You must not scam or deceive other players. And lying to other players for your own personal gain is not in the spirit of fair play.
I didn't really read all their rules or find an official EULA, but I scanned their rules looking for a mention of how everything in-game is the property of Jagex (the guys who make or own Runescape or whatever.) I didn't find any such mention but I assume in Runescape, as in Eve, everything in-game is the property of the company, not the player. Since that's the case, it'd seem there'd be no legal foundation to claim theft if you acquire someone else's gear (unless you acquired their personal information and logged into their account), since the legal owner of the pixels (the company) didn't change with the transfer of the item from player to player.
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Gordon Marinius
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:12:00 -
[8]
The items are the result of real life effort. Anyway you're misinterpreting my reply. _______________
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Azuse
Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests Pure.
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:21:00 -
[9]
Oh dear god
Political correctness with legal backing (common sense not required). -------------------------
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Dihania
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:23:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Azuse Oh dear god
Political correctness with legal backing (common sense not required).
What he said.
[hrhr]
Sniggwaffe is recruiting. Visit channel "join sniggwaffe" in game.
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Brock Nelson
Caldari Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:25:00 -
[11]
Crap, I guess most of us are criminals by Dutch standard.
Drones | Ships | Weapons BPO and BPC |
Verone
Gallente Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:28:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Verone on 21/10/2008 20:30:08
Originally by: Gordon Marinius The items are the result of real life effort. Anyway you're misinterpreting my reply.
No I'm not, I'm disagreeing with you.
You're saying that you believe morally, that these kids should be punished for stealing in an online game. I'm saying that it's stupid, and rediculous that two children should be punished for being smarter than someone else in a game.
Fair enough, if these kids had stolen the guy's Xbox, sure, no worries... community service. They've stole nothing of physical substance, nothing of value.
The guy invested the time in gaining the items knowing full well that they were of no real value and of no real consequence. He also did so knowing that at any point in time the attributes of said items could be changed, affecting their value in the game world, or indeed they could be removed from the game world all together by the development team.
They stole nothing. Nothing at all. Why should two kids recieve a criminal record and be persecuted over stealing nothing?
What are they going to do? Send interpol around to someone's house when they steal a car online from another player in GTA4? Arrest them for murder if they driveby a group of players?
It's an absolute joke. Games are a form of entertainment, regardless of how that entertainement comes inside the game world.
It's pathetic to see yet again that politically correct nanny state bullshit is invading every inch of our lives.
Originally by: Brock Nelson Crap, I guess most of us are criminals by Dutch standard.
I'd love to see the police come to my door in an attempt to arrest me for something like this, they'd get told to **** off and stop wasting my time.
\o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
Dihania
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:34:00 -
[13]
I hope the kids parents file for a mistrial (if that means what I think it does) or go for appeal and ask for a sane judge.
[hrhr]
Sniggwaffe is recruiting. Visit channel "join sniggwaffe" in game.
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Dirk Magnum
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:39:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Dihania I hope the kids parents file for a mistrial (if that means what I think it does) or go for appeal and ask for a sane judge.
Not sure what a mistrial means in a Dutch court, but in an American court it isn't something that gets filed for after the fact. It's what results from a hung jury, the introduction of inappropriately prejudicial testimony, misconduct from one or more individuals in the trial, or a few other things. It gets declared by the judge and the case, if possible and if desired by the prosecutor, is retried with a different jury (or a different judge in the case of bench trials) later.\
What you're thinking of is more likely "filing an appeal", which in American courts takes the case to the next court level, if the appellate court agrees there is merit to do so. Again, not sure how it works in Holland.
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Gordon Marinius
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:41:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Verone What are they going to do? Send interpol around to someone's house when they steal a car online from another player in GTA4? Arrest them for murder if they driveby a group of players?
My point that you keep missing is that although what they do is wrong. We can't have police going around busting people for it. Leave the punishment to the people who run the game. Let them ban the offenders accounts. They stole nothing of vallue. Now they can lose some accounts full of "No vallue"
Originally by: Verone I'd love to see the police come to my door in an attempt to arrest me for something like this, they'd get told to **** off and stop wasting my time.
As much as I would like to take your word on this. We both know that if police showed up at your house the coversation would go like this
Police: You are a suspect in a criminal investigation and we have a warrant for your arrest. Please come with us. Verone: What did I do? Police: Please come with us or we will be forced to handcuff you Verone: Okay
As it would with all sane people. Otherwise things usualy end badly _______________
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Xori Ruscuv
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:54:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Gordon Marinius
As it would with all sane people. Otherwise things usualy end badly
Chris Rock is soooo lame.
Quote: Also people fail to realise that there was real live coersion involved in this case. They didn't scam him in game. The 15 and 14 year old grabed the 13 year old and made him transfer the items. They where convicted of theft because they couldn't prove physical coersion.
Do you have more information on this? Links etc?
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Gordon Marinius
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:54:00 -
[17]
I guess the more important question would be. If a guy twice your size forced you to move all your Eve ISK to his char. Would you call the police afterwards? if police went to his house about it would you call BS on that because it's just game currency that doesn't exist in real life? _______________
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Xori Ruscuv
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:56:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Gordon Marinius I guess the more important question would be. If a guy twice your size forced you to move all your Eve ISK to his char. Would you call the police afterwards? if police went to his house about it would you call BS on that because it's just game currency that doesn't exist in real life?
Yeah, and I'd file an assault (or is it battery?) charge.
Anyway, do you have extra information on this case? Very difficult to draw inferences about physical violence from that article?
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Rivur'Tam
X10 Punishment La Cosa Nostra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:57:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Gordon Marinius
Originally by: Verone What are they going to do? Send interpol around to someone's house when they steal a car online from another player in GTA4? Arrest them for murder if they driveby a group of players?
My point that you keep missing is that although what they do is wrong. We can't have police going around busting people for it. Leave the punishment to the people who run the game. Let them ban the offenders accounts. They stole nothing of vallue. Now they can lose some accounts full of "No vallue"
Originally by: Verone I'd love to see the police come to my door in an attempt to arrest me for something like this, they'd get told to **** off and stop wasting my time.
As much as I would like to take your word on this. We both know that if police showed up at your house the coversation would go like this
Police: You are a suspect in a criminal investigation and we have a warrant for your arrest. Please come with us. Verone: What did I do? Police: Please come with us or we will be forced to handcuff you Verone: Okay
As it would with all sane people. Otherwise things usualy end badly
Maybe you would cry like a baby, But some of us have balls...
In most cases, I tend to launch something at them and run, but every so often they get a smack most pigs think they punch above their weight and 90% of the time this is far from the truth, Most are cowards that hide under their cheuqured hat.
Firemen now they are real heros.. starting to rant so...
I really think that is stuiped, Stealing in game is a crime wtf????
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Gordon Marinius
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:57:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Gordon Marinius on 21/10/2008 20:59:37 Edited by: Gordon Marinius on 21/10/2008 20:58:53
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Do you have more information on this? Links etc?
They knew eachother in real life. The kid pinned it on them. The police could actualy come get them.
Had they not known eachother in real life then the kid would first have had to go to the police. After that the police would have had to get a search warrant to go to the people who host the runescape servers and then demand the IP idresses. Then use the adresses to contact the parents and then get name of just one of the kids who would then have to name the other.
One kid claiming stolen online goods is not enough to get such a search warrant. The kid had to have known both of the older kids in real life.
The only reasons they where convicted of stealing ingame items was because that was the only charge that the prosecutor could use to convict them. _______________
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Xori Ruscuv
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:59:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 21/10/2008 21:04:28
Originally by: Gordon Marinius
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Do you have more information on this? Links etc?
They knew eachother in real life. The kid pinned it on them. The police could actualy come get them.
Had they not known eachother in real life then the kid would first have had to go to the police. After that the police would have had to get a search warran to go to the people who host runescape and then demand the IP idresses. Then use the adresses to contact the parents and then get name of just one of the kid who would then have to name the other.
One kid claiming stolen online goods is not enough to get such a search warrant. The kid had to have known both of the older kids in real life.
Ah, very good point. Nice thinking. Who are you, ****in' Sherlock Holmes :D
Though it's hard to say that the latter isn't what happened (IP search and all that), which is why I'm looking for more information on the actual case. If RuneScape wanted to allow such a search, they could have looked at chat and trade logs, etc.
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Dirk Magnum
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.10.21 21:05:00 -
[22]
The linked article didn't mention physical coercion. If physical coercion happened then yes, a civil suit could be brought against the two older kids (or their parents, in countries where civil redress against minors is made against the parents instead... I believe this is the case in the US as well) although it's questionable how much compensation could be made for the act committed.
Still waiting on a Dutch player to come and comment on this. The only Dutch guy I ever met was someone at Fanfest, and I was too drunk to really remember much of the conversation. I do remember the bit about politics and the agreement we struck that both of us couldn't ****ing believe we elected Bush twice. But I digress.
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Lemage
Fine Goods for Fine Gentlemen
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Posted - 2008.10.21 21:09:00 -
[23]
I'm not sure how punishment gets dished out, but isn't it based on the value of the item stolen? Like stealing a gold watch is different from stealing a candy bar.
How did the judge come up with punishment if the items stolen had no value? The story is unclear on what the kids where punished for, was it for coercing or theft?
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My Sister
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Posted - 2008.10.21 21:09:00 -
[24]
there is a principle involved here - sure it was only "virtual items" but its never ok to take what doesnt belong to you its never ok to coerse (eve excluded because it's permitted and encouraged in this game and part of accepted behaviour in this universe)
i think that it would be irresponsible of any parent to ignore this type of behaviour if it became known to them. a better lesson for young people to learn is the value and satisfaction gained from results achieved from your own hard work.
saying - these were not real items is a cop out.
money is not real - its a concept and a promise to exchange goods and services and yet we all know that the law comes down hard on anyone who steals this "virtual item" and rightly so.
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DarkViper2
Caldari Samhain. Monkey Religion
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Posted - 2008.10.21 21:17:00 -
[25]
In this case it was about physical coercion, no court in the world would punish someone of stealing virual goods, if it happened online. the 2 boys forced the 13 year old to transfer the goods to there account, and because it was physical they were punished for it.
if them 2 boys would have robbed the 13 year old online, then there would have been no problem.
DV2
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Jimer Lins
Gallente Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.21 21:21:00 -
[26]
I posted a thread about this on the General Discussion forum and it seems that there was some other stuff going down- physical coercion involving knives was mentioned.
Corp and Personal killboard
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Jazhara Gold
Crepitus Ventris
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Posted - 2008.10.21 21:21:00 -
[27]
YOIKS!!!
Guess I'd just better be returning that large pos in space I stole a couple of nights back or else my ass is dutch prison poontang
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Anna Scot
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Posted - 2008.10.21 21:28:00 -
[28]
Im dutch and i found the following article (which is in dutch) http://www.nu.nl/news/1800169/50/Werkstraf_en_voorwaardelijk_voor_virtuele_diefstal.html
To give a quick resume: The boys did know the younger one and forced him to go to his home where they beat him up and under threat of a knife they forced him to make the transfers online.
There attorney (is this right?) claimed the items not to be actual good but the judge disagread with them.
They were also charged with threath and battering.
I hope this clears things up a bit.
Anna
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Gordon Marinius
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.10.21 21:41:00 -
[29]
And this was going to be such a big debate too. Oh well. _______________
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CCP Mitnal
C C P
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Posted - 2008.10.21 22:07:00 -
[30]
Moved to OOPE.
Mitnal Community Representative CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang |
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