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Rutherford Rainman
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2012.04.02 06:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
After messing around as an industrialist for a month and a half now, I'm beginning to realize how strange the whole system is. For example, how do ships enter the game? After looking at the isk/hour for literally every T1 ship, few (if any) are worth making, even with perfect skills. Most lose money even with perfect skills, or have razor thin margins. Is this just the by product of wanna be industrialists who make ships because they look the coolest, or is there something I'm not getting? Ammo is another thing that confuses me, most ammo types will lose you money if you don't have them researched to 100 ME, and even then usually the very highest I can see making off of ammo is like 70 thousand isk/hour, which if you had perfect skills you could just about plex off of each month, but again its razor thin here. Do I just have high goals/standards that I want all my lines to be making at least 100l isk/hour, or are people who make ships/ammo/mods just stupid? |
Katarina Reid
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
157
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Posted - 2012.04.02 06:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
Jobs run 24h day semi passive and u can do 11. You have miners "minerals i mine are free" killing profits. You need production effciency lvl 5 and perfect Material Efficiency bpo's. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
572
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 07:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
Many don't care about ISK per hour. For them it is all about shoving some materials in to cook for a month at a time. No further attention required. |
Styth spiting
Forged of Fire
14
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Posted - 2012.04.02 07:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
The big thing to remember is that ore prices have been going up in value over the past month (and nocixum jumped 40% over the weekend) so chances are a large portion of the sell orders haven't had their prices updated to match the new ore prices.
But even when the market isn't in such a state of unrest you're pretty lucky to make a 5% profit on manufacturing from my experience / reading. |
Director Producer
Research Enterprise Ltd
6
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Posted - 2012.04.02 07:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
As Katarina said it, you will have to run severals jobs (10 is a must) all day long.
Then you can stack the IPH's of your differents jobs.
If you take a look at many threads about manufacturing (Tech1 production), severals posters will warn you about Tech1 Ship manufacturing as they really have got a thin marging.
Skill Production Efficiency V, reasearch your BPO's and do your homework (or run Eve IPH  ).
I am absolutly convinced you will find the BPO's with profits, but do not focus on Drakes & Co.
Edit : If you can make some trading for selling your goods, your marging could grow up... |
Rutherford Rainman
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2012.04.02 07:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
But I mean, if you look at the math it just doesn't make sense. I'm going to assume that most of the people who run jobs for a month at a time are generally trying to pay for a plex, so if they have 3 toons on their account, all with perfect skills, and assuming they can get a plex for 500 million (for simplicity's sake) each line needs to make at least 21k isk/hour to make 500 million in a month. 500,000,000/33(3*11 lines of production)= 15151515. 15151515/30(days in a month)=505050. 505050/24(hours in a day)=21043. So to make enough to even justify owning these accounts you need to make at least 21043 isk/hour/line (that is if my math is right, which it very well may not be), which for a lot of ships/mods/ammo is bit of a stretch at times. And again now, this is just to pay the bills, to actually make enough to transfer to a main account you need to make more than this. |
Dhar'aul
Squirrel Horde
Habitat Against Humanity
3
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Posted - 2012.04.02 07:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
The answer: it depends
Industry is not limited to buying minerals out of Jita, making your stuff, then dumping all in Jita at the lowest price. True, that's pure industry, but without a bit of trading it won't go far.
To answer your question, margins on T1 manufacturing are low because of a few reasons:
1. "The minerals I mine are free" crowd.
2. Volume, volume, volume. Large manufacturers (several accounts, each with 3 max industry chars) hold the market. They also tend to have deals with mining corps so they can get minerals cheaper than the market, just add some Red Freight haulage.
My advice:
* find another market to sell your goods, Jita is for the large scale manufacturers or if you just want to dump some stuff at bottom low prices.
* Try not to buy minerals from the market at sell cost. Instead, put up buy orders for the rocks at more secluded locations and refine the ores yourself (hope you got nice refining skills + some standings).
* Put up buy orders at mission runner locations for random stuff, you can melt them and get minerals from there.
* never underestimate lazy. |
Invictra Atreides
Toward the Terra
55
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Posted - 2012.04.02 07:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
Hijacking tread:
I rly wanted to get into HighSec Capital production and thought to produce a Charon. I thought to buy one component blueprint at a time and work up my capital. Then I finally took my time and put everything into a spreadsheet and the results are shocking right now o_O.
I saw that every component has a negative production profit except construction parts. So making the ship makes me about -200 mill Production profit and 40 mill Market profit. Selling the components would give a 240 mill profit, but making that thing reduces the profit by 83%.
I could stockpile minerals 1 month ago and get better profits, but that would only be a bigger Market profit. Should then just sell the minerals, why bother to fill up production slots.
For now I only found some BPOs that have a decent Production profit when ignoring any Market profits. Will see where this is going. I need to do something beside PI ^_^
Blog |-áTutorials | Youtube
"I donGÇÖt know everything, I just know what I know." |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
22
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Posted - 2012.04.02 11:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
T2 BPO crushes pretty much 90% of T2 invention/manufacture. So take into account T2 BPO's as they can produce items without invention and invention is usally by far the most time consuming and expensive part of T2 ship/item creation. |
Sahara Uhuru
4
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Posted - 2012.04.02 12:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
To earn money with T1 production you need several things. One of those things is money.
So as a beginner it's not so easy to do.
Just as an example: Some weeks ago I made big profit selling one faction's shuttles in that factions hub. So we produced a big stack of shuttles. Some days later the price dropped and currently I can't sell them without losing isk.
Here they just lie around in the hangar waiting for the day the prices go up again.
But if you need to liquidate the stuff you make to buy new minerals something like that can break your neck.
What you should add to your math (if you didn't already do that) is the market fees you have to pay when you sell your stuff.
Something that you can lower with the right skills.
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Tekota
The Freighter Factory
226
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Posted - 2012.04.02 12:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:T2 BPO crushes pretty much 90% of T2 invention/manufacture. So take into account T2 BPO's as they can produce items without invention and invention is usally by far the most time consuming and expensive part of T2 ship/item creation.
Every post since, and including, the OP has been about T1 production. Not *every* thread here needs to be turned into a "T2 BPOs are ebil" thread - there is at least one a week already.
Besides which, care to tell me how T2 BPOs are crushing 90% of:
Electronic Attack Ships
HICs
Jump Freighters
Marauders
Black Ops
Each and every T2 rig
Each and every T2 sentry
Each and every T2 repair drone
T2 Mining Laser Upgrade
T2 Ice Harvester Upgrade
Each and every T2 remote armour rep
T2 ship scanners
T2 survey scanners
T2 tractor beams
... and all the other items for which exist not a single T2 BPO. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor
Intrepid Crossing
233
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Posted - 2012.04.02 12:42:00 -
[12] - Quote
Just because you make it now doesn't mean you sell it now. People *use* ships too. I sold an Obelisk the other day. I bought it 3 years ago. Made like 300 mill profit overall....or did I? 
There are many things in the game that affect prices. One is mineral prices. Last year trit was 2.9ish. Now? 5+ Wait until drone poo gets nerfed (/me shakes fist at CCP) Other ships might have lost popularity due to new ships - read, Tier 3 BC's vs. Drakes/Myrms/Canes. Hell, even T1 frigates are awards for newbie missions and destroy profits there too.
Point is, the market is far more dynamic than some people accept. Success is finding out all you can about it. I wrote IPH not so I could have a "Push button, Collect Isk" tool but so I could have something that attempts to organize the market in a way that I can make sense of the things I know. At no time though do I completely rely on only what my own program says. There are many other factors to learn and know about that makes a successful industrialist. Game changes, alliance changes, new items, fotm fits, wars, etc, etc, etc.
It's a bit of work but you will have a hard time finding someone to teach you if they even have the time to teach it all. So stick with it and you'll have light bulbs coming on soon.
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
Arrakasi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.04.02 18:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
One of the main reasons why T1 are so cheap is because they are dropped during missions and ratting. This has gotten worse since the Noctis came into being. If you scan ships comming into jita you can often see missioners comming in to sell their accumulated loot. They can sometimes sell them at really low prices, and these will either be refined or resold.
I believe that supply is far outstripping demand. Particularly if you also have to put into consideration that T1 mods are only used by people that have been around for less then two months - although there are exceptions for some meta 4 mods. But a casual glance at the latest killmails will tell you that most people fit T2. In fact you will probably see more faction mods fitted than T1. |
Xearal
SOL Industries
Black Thorne Alliance
282
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Posted - 2012.04.02 19:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
do your research.. I make things with 20-50% margins.
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cuoredipietra famedoro
The Cognitive Faction
Permanent Transience
0
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Posted - 2012.04.02 21:30:00 -
[15] - Quote
Rutherford Rainman wrote:After messing around as an industrialist for a month and a half now, I'm beginning to realize how strange the whole system is. For example, how do ships enter the game? After looking at the isk/hour for literally every T1 ship, few (if any) are worth making, even with perfect skills. Most lose money even with perfect skills, or have razor thin margins. Is this just the by product of wanna be industrialists who make ships because they look the coolest, or is there something I'm not getting? Ammo is another thing that confuses me, most ammo types will lose you money if you don't have them researched to 100 ME, and even then usually the very highest I can see making off of ammo is like 70 thousand isk/hour, which if you had perfect skills you could just about plex off of each month, but again its razor thin here. Do I just have high goals/standards that I want all my lines to be making at least 100l isk/hour, or are people who make ships/ammo/mods just stupid?
If you really want to make some iskies from t1 stuff, Jita is not the place you want to sell.
Start selling t1 stuff where missioners can buy it, station only, and you might get a better profit out of it.
Of course, producing in high volumes is also a way to go, very capital intensive thou.
Do some research and you'll be fine.
|
Xuixien
Stoic Assembly Lines
Trade Federation Alliance
12
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Posted - 2012.04.02 23:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
The real problem that no one wants to mention is the illicit software used to accumulate minerals. When you don't have to actually put any effort into it, a 1% profit margin isn't a bad deal after all.
Stoic Assembly Lines is looking for new players interested in mining and running missions. Inquire within. |
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
4
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Posted - 2012.04.02 23:40:00 -
[17] - Quote
One of the earlier post gives a clue to your answer.
Tech1 ships are there to bridge a gap between tech1 and tech2 (or to be used for cheap disposable ships).
A tech1 ship may get purchased from a producer and that producer makes isk. When the owner of that cruiser wants a new ship he will either sell to a buy order or put up his own sell order, generally these orders are below the value of the ship itself just because someone wishes to get rid of it. This same ship can go through the same cycle several times and that could result in the price going down quite a bit.
If you can find systems wehere ships are destroyed then those are the ideal locations to sell your ships. You could also buy the ships and move them to other locations and get similar profits. Ammo shouldnt suffer as bad but it does drop as rat loot, be smart and dont try to compete with the rat orders.
Some mineral farmers do build items to sell as they are easier to dump than minerals. CCP could run stats on this but they would need someone who understands the game mechanics and has a good understanding of the eve market. Guess our assumptions will be all you have to go off of. |
Nub Sauce
State War Academy
Caldari State
18
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Posted - 2012.04.03 21:30:00 -
[18] - Quote
1) Unless you happen to be making an item with a massive margin, don't ever sell to Jita buy orders. Likely, don't sell to buy orders at all.
2) Find a good location to sell your goods. Jita is almost never the best for profit. Go sell somewhere that the items you're making are in demand and the consumers are willing to pay more due to the convenience of not having to fly to a market hub. |
Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
456
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 05:34:00 -
[19] - Quote
some t1 ships are made then sold at a later date.
i sold my itty 3 when i got an itty 4 for example, and i undercut everyone. |
Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
102
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 05:36:00 -
[20] - Quote
Rutherford Rainman wrote:After messing around as an industrialist for a month and a half now, I'm beginning to realize how strange the whole system is. For example, how do ships enter the game? After looking at the isk/hour for literally every T1 ship, few (if any) are worth making, even with perfect skills. Most lose money even with perfect skills, or have razor thin margins. Is this just the by product of wanna be industrialists who make ships because they look the coolest, or is there something I'm not getting? Ammo is another thing that confuses me, most ammo types will lose you money if you don't have them researched to 100 ME, and even then usually the very highest I can see making off of ammo is like 70 thousand isk/hour, which if you had perfect skills you could just about plex off of each month, but again its razor thin here. Do I just have high goals/standards that I want all my lines to be making at least 100l isk/hour, or are people who make ships/ammo/mods just stupid?
One character makes ammo, plexes the other two on the account. And yes those who do it use ME100+ prints.
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brinelan
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC.
Li3 Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.04.18 15:57:00 -
[21] - Quote
Jas Dor wrote:Rutherford Rainman wrote:After messing around as an industrialist for a month and a half now, I'm beginning to realize how strange the whole system is. For example, how do ships enter the game? After looking at the isk/hour for literally every T1 ship, few (if any) are worth making, even with perfect skills. Most lose money even with perfect skills, or have razor thin margins. Is this just the by product of wanna be industrialists who make ships because they look the coolest, or is there something I'm not getting? Ammo is another thing that confuses me, most ammo types will lose you money if you don't have them researched to 100 ME, and even then usually the very highest I can see making off of ammo is like 70 thousand isk/hour, which if you had perfect skills you could just about plex off of each month, but again its razor thin here. Do I just have high goals/standards that I want all my lines to be making at least 100l isk/hour, or are people who make ships/ammo/mods just stupid? One character makes ammo, plexes the other two on the account. And yes those who do it use ME100+ prints.
High me is useless for most ammo prints, heck there are some small ammo prints that need no me research at all. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger
Ev0ke
203
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Posted - 2012.04.18 17:50:00 -
[22] - Quote
people tend to build ammo with minerals they mined for free
also ammo is something that always sells very well in large quantities, so you can run 2 characters relatively passive aside from your main without any major hassle
that MIGHT be a problem if you aim for maximum profit |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions
Reckless Ambition
280
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Posted - 2012.04.18 20:53:00 -
[23] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:T2 BPO crushes pretty much 90% of T2 invention/manufacture. So take into account T2 BPO's as they can produce items without invention and invention is usally by far the most time consuming and expensive part of T2 ship/item creation.
GTFO, you useless troll.
The invention of ice-hockey is proof that Canada deserves to rule the world. Eh.
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Immortis Vexx
Lupus Draconis
Dragehund
8
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Posted - 2012.04.18 22:23:00 -
[24] - Quote
Part of the problem in my opinion is that most people out there make and sell things at cost. Most modules and ships on the market are sold LITERALLY right at the value of the minerals used to build it. The person who said that their freighter sold at a loss was because of the staggering amount of minerals required to build the damn thing. It isn't necessarily the "I mine for free" crowd, its the "I build for free" crowd. Though admittedly part of this is likely due to standard supply and demand laws but never doubt the power of stupid.
Vexx |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
49
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Posted - 2012.04.18 23:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
When it comes to T2 just rage at T2BPO ship mate. |
Dersk
90040045
56
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Posted - 2012.04.19 00:04:00 -
[26] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:When it comes to T2 just rage at T2BPO ship mate.
You're like the snot shot of S&I |
Katja Faith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
42
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Posted - 2012.04.19 01:15:00 -
[27] - Quote
Dersk wrote:Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:When it comes to T2 just rage at T2BPO ship mate. You're like the snot shot of S&I
He's the in-house troll here. Too bad people insist on feeding him. |
Salo Aldeland
Luma Operations
14
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Posted - 2012.04.19 01:42:00 -
[28] - Quote
Katja Faith wrote:
He's the in-house troll here. Too bad people insist on feeding him.
I know, but after a couple of scotches I can't help myself. He brings out the angsty 17 year old in me. I couldn't tell you why. |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions
Reckless Ambition
282
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Posted - 2012.04.19 01:59:00 -
[29] - Quote
Dersk wrote:Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:When it comes to T2 just rage at T2BPO ship mate. You're like the snot shot of S&I
Yeah, but Snot Shot is entertaining, and often insightful.
This guy is just stupid, and grating.
The invention of ice-hockey is proof that Canada deserves to rule the world. Eh.
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Rutherford Rainman
Stoic Assembly Lines
Trade Federation Alliance
10
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Posted - 2012.04.19 02:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
Well, not that I don't appreciate the replies, but after this thread died the first time I pretty much had my answers. |
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