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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Ecky X
Shadow Company
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Posted - 2008.10.26 18:24:00 -
[181]
I support CCP Casqade et al in their quest to fix local. There is a solution that will make everyone happier. Start throwing changes on Sisi and let us test them out! |
Thargat
Caldari North Star Networks Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.10.26 18:35:00 -
[182]
AWESOME. I have wished for this since Revelations rolled out and local was borked for several hours. Fun an exciting. It will also rid of us of applications such as those used by a few large "unnamed" alliances and corps whose members have already been in this thread posting about their concerns.
I can understand however, some of the worries voiced by some ppl in this thread. There's been PLENTY of posts on the forums during the years and people have added numerous smart solutions to the problems that arise if local is removed.
Extending scanning in various ways is a good way to improve intel gathering without local but a special solution explained in a thread I was following a few years back comes to mind (though I can't be arsed to go and find that thread so I'll try to summerize).
* Activating your scanner should show up in local somehow, like a "unknown" scan signal, possibly containing the scanning ships sensor type instead of character name and corp/alliance. So you either sit quiet and keep your scanner offline, or you scan and risk detection.
* Scanresults, range and direction should be tied to: sigradius, sensorstrength (if the target ship is activly scanning), active modules (or possibly even online modules). IE, by turning everything OFF you reduce the chance of being detected but it will also mean that you're vulnerable IF something happens.
* System scanning arrays should function likewise. If there's an active array the non friendlies should be notified of this at first "scan" from the array. Friendly ships in the system should be able to get the information from the array broadcasted to them at a cost (possibly even a module slot). |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.10.26 18:40:00 -
[183]
Originally by: DeadDuck Have you guys heard of Login Traps ??? Yes, is metagaming but people do it all the time... Have people thought about what will happen with this new feature and the will of people at "win at all cost" ???
Login trap has always been a valid ambush tactic. The shade of metagaming is a side effect of the perfect and free intel provided by Local.
If you don't want to be ambushed you can always stay docked. |
K'Ji
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Posted - 2008.10.26 18:46:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Agreed. Alot of the player base IS hoping for local to be removed and I hope you won't give in to these whine threads on this one.
Also alot of the player base is not hoping for local to be removed and I hope they won't give in, to those whiners wanting that change in this thread. |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.26 18:57:00 -
[185]
Originally by: K'Ji
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Agreed. Alot of the player base IS hoping for local to be removed and I hope you won't give in to these whine threads on this one.
Also alot of the player base is not hoping for local to be removed and I hope they won't give in, to those whiners wanting that change in this thread.
Why? Because it would remove the need to login trap people to hide your numbers and to not get scouted? Removing local will give MORE pvp to the people and handling fleets will require better scouts. Also more fun to scout for that matter then just looking at local and saying "clear" or "we are boned, log off". ----------------------------------------- [Video] Tempest of Change |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.10.26 19:00:00 -
[186]
Originally by: DeadDuck Well if you want to remove local you could add a scanner with a large range in the player UI where hostiles could be shown has red dots. Something like a FOF system. At least you could see if a hostile was in system and their direction. Same for the hunters of course.
As long as this new scanner has a range that is not infinite (as is the current Local).
Ideally the quality of intel from the new scanner would improve with range. For example, at the current limit of 13AU the best you'd get is a list of occupied ships by size (cap/bs/cruiser/frigate), and the friendly markers. Closer in, you'd get the type of ship, low resolution location vectors, and, finally, the names/alliances/corps with the corresponding standing markers.
It would be nice if the scanner resolution ranges would be modified by ship type and environmental factors. ...
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K'Ji
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Posted - 2008.10.26 19:02:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: K'Ji
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Agreed. Alot of the player base IS hoping for local to be removed and I hope you won't give in to these whine threads on this one.
Also alot of the player base is not hoping for local to be removed and I hope they won't give in, to those whiners wanting that change in this thread.
Why? Because it would remove the need to login trap people to hide your numbers and to not get scouted? Removing local will give MORE pvp to the people and handling fleets will require better scouts. Also more fun to scout for that matter then just looking at local and saying "clear" or "we are boned, log off".
Why? Because you're frightened of a login trap, without local or cloaks you'll be hiding your numbers anyway and not get scouted. Removing local will give LESS PvP to the people and handling fleets will require more recons. Alsao less fun to move about and travel for that matter, as time is an issue, so seeing local is "clear" means my times not boned and I get to log off when I want.
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.26 19:04:00 -
[188]
Edited by: lecrotta on 26/10/2008 19:04:35
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: K'Ji
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Agreed. Alot of the player base IS hoping for local to be removed and I hope you won't give in to these whine threads on this one.
Also alot of the player base is not hoping for local to be removed and I hope they won't give in, to those whiners wanting that change in this thread.
Why? Because it would remove the need to login trap people to hide your numbers and to not get scouted? Removing local will give MORE pvp to the people and handling fleets will require better scouts. Also more fun to scout for that matter then just looking at local and saying "clear" or "we are boned, log off".
So instead of looking in local the scout will report and then they will be "clear" or need to "log off".
I do not care either way about local, but this is another example of trying to change the game and thinking it will change human nature, i saw similar comments about nano causing players to "run away" or "not engage" and other Muppets claiming a nerf would change things but as with this a nerf and others it will not change personality types or how they choose to play.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.26 19:08:00 -
[189]
Originally by: K'Ji
Why? Because you're frightened of a login trap, without local or cloaks you'll be hiding your numbers anyway and not get scouted. Removing local will give LESS PvP to the people and handling fleets will require more recons. Alsao less fun to move about and travel for that matter, as time is an issue, so seeing local is "clear" means my times not boned and I get to log off when I want.
You think just because you'll get less immediate intel in a system that people will roam around less without a huge blob? You're wrong. You're forgetting that it is not only you that has a hard time seeing the enemy, it also works the other way around. The changes will promote people to roam around instead of sitting in their stations. People won't resort to login traps because local won't instantly give them away. Cloaks will work as ambush because you will not see them before they decloak. This means more pvp for recons infiltrating hostile areas. Today as soon as there is someone red in local you don't rat = no pvp for anyone = boring. The removal of local + a new type of system scanner is just what eve needs and they will probably do it because they have been talking about it for a long time now. |
Beowulf Scheafer
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Posted - 2008.10.26 19:09:00 -
[190]
Edited by: Beowulf Scheafer on 26/10/2008 19:14:31
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
It is broken. Has been broken. Just because something has been in a certain way for a long time doesn't make it not broken.
local has been ingame like this from day ONE on, it is not broken, it is meant to be just like that from the very beginning...
people complaining in here removing local will increase the pvp. is say it is the other way round. as it is, you can jump into a system, have a short look and swiftly realize whether there are targets, enemies, opponents (whatever names you give thoose you want to kill for certain reasons)or not. if so -> probes, if not -> move on to the next system. i think alot of people will not care to scan and probe each and every system to counter the nerftimer. therefore i predict some people will simply not pvp anymore.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.26 19:09:00 -
[191]
Originally by: lecrotta
So instead of looking in local the scout will report and then they will be "clear" or need to "log off".
That's certainly not how it will work because scanners unlike local has FINITE range. This means you can hide a HUGE fleet in one corner of the system and if it is not scouted they will not be seen. |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.26 19:10:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Beowulf Scheafer
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
It is broken. Has been broken. Just because something has been in a certain way for a long time doesn't make it not broken.
local has been ingame like this from day ONE on, it is not broken, it is meant to be just like that from the very beginning...
In the beginning eve wasnt overcrowded. Local made it easier to just dismiss a system as empty while looking for action. Today eve is CROWDED, anywhere you go there are people around. Local has become an overpowered scouting tool that is not needed anymore to ensure action. |
Beowulf Scheafer
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Posted - 2008.10.26 19:18:00 -
[193]
a space game looking like a shadowrun game is just wrong, no doubt on that one. eve is far overcrowded. but removing the local chat might be the wrong way to make people feel like space again. the easier solution might be to simply add more space, isn't it?
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K'Ji
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Posted - 2008.10.26 19:20:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
You think just because you'll get less immediate intel in a system that people will roam around less without a huge blob? You're wrong. You're forgetting that it is not only you that has a hard time seeing the enemy, it also works the other way around. The changes will promote people to roam around instead of sitting in their stations. People won't resort to login traps because local won't instantly give them away. Cloaks will work as ambush because you will not see them before they decloak. This means more pvp for recons infiltrating hostile areas. Today as soon as there is someone red in local you don't rat = no pvp for anyone = boring. The removal of local + a new type of system scanner is just what eve needs and they will probably do it because they have been talking about it for a long time now.
You think just because you'll get less intel in a system that people will roam around more without a hugh blob? You're wrong. You're forgetting that because people are having a hard timing seeing anyone, as you do, the changes will promote the blob to roam around, instead of smaller gangs. People won't resort to login traps, because the blob will give anyone away almost instantly. Cloaks will work as an ambush, because if this change makes it through they will be overpowered. Without local people won't rat = no PvP for anyone = boring. The removal of local + a new type of system scanner is just what eve doesn't need, but they will probably do it, as whiners like you have been talking about it for a long time now.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.26 19:30:00 -
[195]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 26/10/2008 19:31:21
Originally by: K'Ji Without local people won't rat = no PvP for anyone = boring.
People won't rat without a local? Haha. This just shows how you people are used to easy mode. You're still invincible if you are aligned and keep an eye on your scanner (and recons take several seconds to lock you even if they decloak right next to you). Oh no, you can't simply watch local only now, how dare they nerf the easy mode ratting.
Both you and I know that removing local will only hit the lazy/unskilled players. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Tempest of Change |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.10.26 19:43:00 -
[196]
To CCP: Before you thrown wild ideas about nerfing local out there, I would suggest you already work on the alternatives before you spend too much time on it. If the alternatives are not viable, you are wasting your time, and possibly ruining the game if you touch local.
Theoretically I could certainly see a viable alternative to local. It would involve a permanent radar on your screen updating you on ships in scanrange, probably including some sort of indication of covert ships (say an 'anomaly' on the scanner). Scanrange would need to be significantly bigger than 14 AU though, and would require an IFF element as well. I could see a system where you have frigs with a 10 AU scan/radar range, cruisers 20, battleships 40, carriers 80AU. Adds some variety and possibility of surprise while still making living in 0.0 possible.
But the main things I worry about is that you are gonna throw something half-assed out there, or that you find a solution that is so intensive in terms of server resources that it will increase lag in fleetbattles. And any decent solution would probably be so similar in eventual effect as the current local channel, so even if you find that perfect mix, I am not sure that it would actually really improve the game.
Because the bottomline is, if you want to replace local with something else, that something else needs to be very close to as good as local in terms of being able to find hostiles, otherwise you are making life in 0.0 pretty much irrelevant because its rewards would not live up to the risk. But if you succeed in that, what will you have changed really for the game?
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.10.26 19:45:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 26/10/2008 19:31:21
Originally by: K'Ji Without local people won't rat = no PvP for anyone = boring.
People won't rat without a local? Haha. This just shows how you people are used to easy mode. You're still invincible if you are aligned and keep an eye on your scanner (and recons take several seconds to lock you even if they decloak right next to you). Oh no, you can't simply watch local only now, how dare they nerf the easy mode ratting.
Both you and I know that removing local will only hit the lazy/unskilled players.
Yes, because its impossible that a cloaked ship would just bump you to make you not warp, that has never happened before. Or that a cloaked dictor is waiting for you in the next belt.
All you need is a cloaked falcon to do the initial tackling. Close with ratting BS, ram it to stop it from warping, jam and scramble it and your buddies will finish it off.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.10.26 20:01:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Malachon Draco To CCP: Before you thrown wild ideas about nerfing local out there, I would suggest you already work on the alternatives before you spend too much time on it. If the alternatives are not viable, you are wasting your time, and possibly ruining the game if you touch local.
Theoretically I could certainly see a viable alternative to local. It would involve a permanent radar on your screen updating you on ships in scanrange, probably including some sort of indication of covert ships (say an 'anomaly' on the scanner). Scanrange would need to be significantly bigger than 14 AU though, and would require an IFF element as well. I could see a system where you have frigs with a 10 AU scan/radar range, cruisers 20, battleships 40, carriers 80AU. Adds some variety and possibility of surprise while still making living in 0.0 possible.
But the main things I worry about is that you are gonna throw something half-assed out there, or that you find a solution that is so intensive in terms of server resources that it will increase lag in fleetbattles. And any decent solution would probably be so similar in eventual effect as the current local channel, so even if you find that perfect mix, I am not sure that it would actually really improve the game.
Because the bottomline is, if you want to replace local with something else, that something else needs to be very close to as good as local in terms of being able to find hostiles, otherwise you are making life in 0.0 pretty much irrelevant because its rewards would not live up to the risk. But if you succeed in that, what will you have changed really for the game?
Nice strawman.
The amazing thing about this thread (and all threads like this one) is that no matter how many times or how clear the main intent is stated and restated, it will be ignored in the 'arguments' against. ...
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.26 20:10:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Yes, because its impossible that a cloaked ship would just bump you to make you not warp, that has never happened before. Or that a cloaked dictor is waiting for you in the next belt.
All you need is a cloaked falcon to do the initial tackling. Close with ratting BS, ram it to stop it from warping, jam and scramble it and your buddies will finish it off.
All recons are not great bumpers, it's not 100% success tactic and if you're good at it whooptidoo. So there might be a slight risk that you might get bumped while you're ratting. Tbh if you can't take that risk then you don't belong in 0.0. |
Xavier Zedicus
Zardoz Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.10.26 21:18:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Corp Quas Edited by: Corp Quas on 24/10/2008 19:51:54
Quote: Local as an info tool: We want to put local in 0.0 as a delayed mode channel so only people who talk in the channel are shown. We are also looking at other alternatives but if we find nothing better this will be put in testing at least.
I swear to you CCP if you mess this up in any way you will lose at least 6 more accounts. This is primarily only catering to the roaming PvP pilots. There are far more people that need local to work as-is to enjoy this game. Changing it will be a drastic "last straw" change and you will lose alot of players.
In 0.0 as we get intel of hostile gangs via local we can form defence gangs to prepare. With the proposed changes roaming gangs will have ultimate power over 0.0 space. There will not be defence gangs because no one will even know any hostiles are there until it is too late.
maybe you should just always have a defensive gang set up, that way it would actually require DEFENSE rather than defensive-style countering. |
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Evan Batarr
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Posted - 2008.10.26 21:52:00 -
[201]
Edited by: Evan Batarr on 26/10/2008 21:52:55
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Today eve is CROWDED, anywhere you go there are people around. Local has become an overpowered scouting tool that is not needed anymore to ensure action.
ROFL
Where do you live? Jita?? I live in 0.0 most of the time and 90% of the area my alliance has sov in is EMPTY. Completely. Although we have over 1000 members and the area we inhabit is not that big. I don't think removing the current local is a good idea - even if it comes along with changes to the scanner mechanics. It is hard enough to make some ISK in 0.0 as it is now. If a new mechanic isn't very, very well balanced (and to be honest I doubt CCP is able to accomplish that - I just need to look at the upcoming changes and the many, many imbalances IG that REALLY need fixing) the result will be that 0.0 will be even emptier as it is now. Better not touch the local - the result could be devastating for EVE. |
SO Chong
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Posted - 2008.10.26 22:05:00 -
[202]
I do Agree there is somethign we need to do against local. It is a no need for scanner thing that cuts out the element of suprise....BUT!
This will make a lot of things in 0.0 to hard or even in empire.
In 0.0 you can never jump in jumpfreighters or roquals. They have no defence and a covert ops ship can be your death. This is because if you jump to a jumpbeacon at a pos or a cyno field that everyone can see in the overview...they know where to get you. So moving capitals around without a complete fleet to cover is almost impossible.
Cloakers will be overpowered. I can't wait to get my Widow out if this happens. You can grief the hell out of everyone when you have a covert ops that will get close, scram and web and the widow jams you and kills you.
Empire wars the same. Now you could see when a wartarget was in system. Now a wardec will really criplle your corp. You can't do anything without support.
I think the risk will go up thus far that people will loose interest in doing war decs are living in 0.0
I would give it a try to live there, but after loosing several ships during ratting or mining or just treaveling, i would prolly head back to empire and do missons. A whole lot safer and will cost a lot less.
I think loosing local completely will really be a too big of a difference from the current situation.
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Amoun Ra
Caldari Soulless Armada
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Posted - 2008.10.26 22:14:00 -
[203]
I think removing local as an intel tool is an interesting idea simply because it make the game more exciting. Granted it makes life harder for ratters and miners but i like to think of it as eve getting harder as it grows which would make it more challenging thus more fun.
Think of it as a single player game level 1 you have the tutorial it shows you how to hold a gun point it and pull the trigger level 2 teaches you how to fire by shooting at a target that doesn't fire back level 30 all hell breaks loose and you have to rely on your acquired skills to win. EVE offers the same you have noob systems where ganking is not even allowed you have high sec space where you can safely run level 4 missions and earn a decent amount of isk and then you have low sec and 0.0 where all hell breaks loose, only difference is you choose the level of difficulty you wish to play.
I am not 100% sure about the local removal idea maybe its good maybe it will be a very bad idea but i am willing to give the devs a chance to figure out how to make it work and be fun then we can test it and then we can discuss with them any concerns regarding their implementation.
What i really don't like is for eve to become stale and boring with no change and no challenges. |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.10.26 22:16:00 -
[204]
Originally by: SO Chong I do Agree there is somethign we need to do against local. It is a no need for scanner thing that cuts out the element of suprise....BUT!
This will make a lot of things in 0.0 to hard or even in empire.
In 0.0 you can never jump in jumpfreighters or roquals. They have no defence and a covert ops ship can be your death. This is because if you jump to a jumpbeacon at a pos or a cyno field that everyone can see in the overview...they know where to get you. So moving capitals around without a complete fleet to cover is almost impossible.
Cloakers will be overpowered. I can't wait to get my Widow out if this happens. You can grief the hell out of everyone when you have a covert ops that will get close, scram and web and the widow jams you and kills you.
Empire wars the same. Now you could see when a wartarget was in system. Now a wardec will really criplle your corp. You can't do anything without support.
I think the risk will go up thus far that people will loose interest in doing war decs are living in 0.0
I would give it a try to live there, but after loosing several ships during ratting or mining or just treaveling, i would prolly head back to empire and do missons. A whole lot safer and will cost a lot less.
I think loosing local completely will really be a too big of a difference from the current situation.
That can be acomplished by CCP introducign another 2 types of ship.
A new role is HIDE other ships from scanners. Not absolute like cloak buit make harder to probe. That woudl make hiding rorquals and etc possible
And AWACS ships, ships with special roles and capabilities to detect info from people in system and even MAYBE some very small capability towards neighbor systems...
Those would add more depth in the game and enjoy this new face of the game. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.26 22:19:00 -
[205]
With local being removed cloaking has to change.
Increase the consumption of CAP the cloaking requires. Specialized cloakers can stay cloaked for a while but not specialized cloackers will only be capable of cloack for a small amount of time. When the cap is over the ships uncloaks, and can only cloak after their cap reaches a predetermined level (80% cap for example).
________________ God is my Wingman |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.26 22:56:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Evan Batarr
Where do you live? Jita??
The issue is not that it is too dangerous to rat in 0.0, the problem is that it is too easy to make money without any risk in high sec. The risk vs reward is broken in high sec, not in 0.0. Don't make the local issue about something it is not. Remove local and nerf high sec money making. There ya go. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise |
SunTzuCsu
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.10.26 22:59:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Evan Batarr
Where do you live? Jita??
The issue is not that it is too dangerous to rat in 0.0, the problem is that it is too easy to make money without any risk in high sec. The risk vs reward is broken in high sec, not in 0.0. Don't make the local issue about something it is not. Remove local and nerf high sec money making. There ya go.
erm, what?
So local should be nerfed, because it's too easy to make money in hi-sec? WTF has that got to do with local?
Your trolling just derailed.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.26 23:01:00 -
[208]
Originally by: SunTzuCsu
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Evan Batarr
Where do you live? Jita??
The issue is not that it is too dangerous to rat in 0.0, the problem is that it is too easy to make money without any risk in high sec. The risk vs reward is broken in high sec, not in 0.0. Don't make the local issue about something it is not. Remove local and nerf high sec money making. There ya go.
erm, what?
So local should be nerfed, because it's too easy to make money in hi-sec? WTF has that got to do with local?
Your trolling just derailed.
huh? No, evan claimed that nerfing local is bad because it is dangerous enough already ratting in 0.0 compared to making money in high sec. Local needs nerfed, end of story. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise |
Rhadamantine
Game Community
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Posted - 2008.10.26 23:29:00 -
[209]
Edited by: Rhadamantine on 26/10/2008 23:33:48
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
huh? No, evan claimed that nerfing local is bad because it is dangerous enough already ratting in 0.0 compared to making money in high sec. Local needs nerfed, end of story.
Actually I read it, that after you claimed eve was overcrowded and that Local has become an overpowered scouting tool. Evan pointed out that 0.0 is actually empty most of the time. Hence the question... "Where do you live? Jita??"
He then went on to say, why he didn't want local nerfing, regarding ratting etc.
You should really read the post right first.
The local nerf will only affect lo-sec and 0.0, unless you have a war dec ofc. So statements regarding overcrowding, are bound to get replies, as they don't sit well with the topic at hand.
Edit: Additional quote. |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.27 00:18:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Rhadamantine Edited by: Rhadamantine on 26/10/2008 23:33:48
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
huh? No, evan claimed that nerfing local is bad because it is dangerous enough already ratting in 0.0 compared to making money in high sec. Local needs nerfed, end of story.
Actually I read it, that after you claimed eve was overcrowded and that Local has become an overpowered scouting tool. Evan pointed out that 0.0 is actually empty most of the time. Hence the question... "Where do you live? Jita??"
He then went on to say, why he didn't want local nerfing, regarding ratting etc.
You should really read the post right first.
The local nerf will only affect lo-sec and 0.0, unless you have a war dec ofc. So statements regarding overcrowding, are bound to get replies, as they don't sit well with the topic at hand.
Edit: Additional quote.
Alot of low sec areas and 0.0 systems are not empty at all. |
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