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Eternum Praetorian
Tupperware Party
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Posted - 2008.10.28 17:35:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 28/10/2008 17:35:14 Reading over the Zulupark answer thread I came across the apart where he supports the idea of running lv 4 missions in Empire is to little reward for risk factor.
I disagree and thus invite my flaming....
It's not really so much about lv 4 mission or Empire. It really about low sec. Per cubic angstrom of space low sec is more dangerous then 0.0 by far. That's were pirates go, camp, and roam (pros and wanna-be's alike) more there then anywhere else. The idea of faction ships regularly parading into these areas to run missions with full faction fits is.... well not very realistic.
A CNR is actually surprising easy to kill, a raven more so. And these are the most common of mission ships. How would mission runners navigate this gambit? (The Empire-low sec choke points are always camped as it is)
Part of what makes Eve so awesome (and mind numbingly complex at times ) is its great diversity and need for specialization. people can spend there whole lives trading, mission running, manufacturing, mining AND/OR PVP combat (or all of the above if they desire). I happen to love both PVP and Trade. I don't know why its satisfying to post what I am selling in a chat window over and over and over again, it just is. I guess I am weird ) But that being said, allot of mission runners simply don't have skills in PVP. They don't know how to PVP, and they don't want to PVP.
The response to this will be "Learn..." and will generally be from a pirate. But even if you "learned" a mission fit is not and never will be a pvp fit. If you get caught you will be dead.
Mission hubs in High sec will get more lag cause more people would collect in them. The areas of low sec that have mission runners running lv 4 agents will be camped as much as the Ded space complexes are now but with pirates.
I can see no viable way to make an idea like this work. Are mission runners meant to be protected by a small fleet when they venture into a mission? Are they supposed to fit a cloak, or perhaps sacrifice mission fits for ones more viable in PVP? Either way you will still get pounced on by a gang that will be spending most of their time in eve looking for both you and people like you. And you will be venturing out into space repeatedly, over and over again, VIA a well know route.
That, very simply, is just not fair to the people who like running missions. I am saying this and I hate running missions. But I do have friends who do like running them.
I don't see how an idea like this could possibly work realistically
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Bai ZongTong
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2008.10.28 17:42:00 -
[2]
who says u need faction-fitted CNR for L4s?
ur just scared to meet all the pirates |
Eternum Praetorian
Tupperware Party
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Posted - 2008.10.28 17:44:00 -
[3]
Funny . . .
So mission runners just use tech II fitted tech I ships and hope for the best then. |
Cyb3r Thr3at
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.10.28 17:46:00 -
[4]
Good arguement.. I agree. :) |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.10.28 17:50:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
It really about low sec[...]is more dangerous then 0.0 by far[...]The idea of faction ships regularly parading into these areas to run missions with full faction fits is.... well not very realistic.
Learn to fly cheap stuff in missions. You don't NEED a full faction fit on a faction battleships to solo L4s, and you certainly don't even need battleships at all, especially if you work in teams.
Quote: But that being said, allot of mission runners simply don't have skills in PVP. They don't know how to PVP, and they don't want to PVP.
Then they shouldn't WANT to get very good ISK/hour either. L3s will do fine too, you know...
Quote: Mission hubs in High sec will get more lag cause more people would collect in them. The areas of low sec that have mission runners running lv 4 agents will be camped as much as the Ded space complexes are now but with pirates.
Hmm... if nobody goes to the lowsec hubs, why would they be camped ?
Quote: I can see no viable way to make an idea like this work. Are mission runners meant to be protected by a small fleet when they venture into a mission? Are they supposed to fit a cloak, or perhaps sacrifice mission fits for ones more viable in PVP? Either way you will still get pounced on by a gang that will be spending most of their time in eve looking for both you and people like you. And you will be venturing out into space repeatedly, over and over again, VIA a well know route.
Who says you have to do any of that ? First off, the much more likely scenario is that slightly PvP-oriented PvE-focused corps will take up residence in some lowsec areas, and (at least try to) police their space, cooperating with other half-carebearish, half-agressive corps. It's not like that wasn't already the situation 2-3 years ago, WHEN LOWSEC DIDN'T SUCK SO MUCH AS IT DOES TODAY. Make lowsec interesting again, and you might just see those days coming back. Also, if the area is sufficiently populated, you won't have to leave it to get anything you need, since traders will undoubtedly seize the opportunity for profit enabled by the existance of a lowsec mission-hub where they can fetch better prices than in any highsec market hub.
Quote: That, very simply, is just not fair to the people who like running missions. I am saying this and I hate running missions. But I do have friends who do like running them. I don't see how an idea like this could possibly work realistically
Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's impossible. It might take a while, or it might never fly due to the ingrained ideas similar to the ones you just presented making people avoid the area, but you never know.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.10.28 17:53:00 -
[6]
P.S. As to the thread title, "Anyone actually running lv 4's in low sec?" - the answer is YES, there are enough people doing that. Not many, but there are some. All it takes is a relatively quiet area OR an area full of like-minded mission-runners. Once you get used to the locals (and know which ones are just mission-runners like yourself, and set mutual standings) it becomes relatively easy and risk-free. Not completely, but close enough.
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Jessica Fyers
Gallente Azure Horizon
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Posted - 2008.10.28 17:54:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Jessica Fyers on 28/10/2008 17:57:37 I used to run missions in lowsec for quite a long time, and i always did the 2 things that highly increased my chances of survival:
1) Aligned as soon as i was in mission area, before getting agro. 2) Always had the system scanner open, at maximum coverage, and kept refreshing it like mad, to spot probes in time.
That worked so well that i once had some pirates who warped in on me on the last area of Vengeance vs Angels kill the boss for me (i warped out the moment they appeared as i was aligned and knew they were coming). Of course that wont matter a bit if you got to travel even one jump away, which is how i lost a Raven - to a gatecamp, and i blame only myself, pirates where just doing their job Btw, i would not use any other ship than a simple t2 fitted Raven for lowsec missions, coz i dont have to worry about stuff like tracking and optimal, leaving me free to slowbaot towards a warpable object blowing up rats. Oh, and i dont mission run in lowsec anymore - been about 8 months since i last did that
Also, to the question about how to move ship and stuff there, do it either right before, or right after dt, hardly rocket science to figure that out. And stuff like ammo and drones are easy to move in a frigate after that. |
Andrea Erlang
Caldari Erlang Biolabs
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Posted - 2008.10.28 17:59:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Andrea Erlang on 28/10/2008 17:59:45 I think lvl4s in low sec would also bring new options for corporations to make a living, protection rackets, locking down systems for themselves. But Akita stated everything well enough. Also, if the missions would be decently spread enough around most of low-sec, we'd get rid of people stuffing themselves into a single system [i.e. motsu, dodixie]. Not to mention it would solve the annoying RP question of massive pirate fleets in high-sec space.
I say, do it now.
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Yuleth Gix
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Posted - 2008.10.28 18:02:00 -
[9]
or you can use t2 fitted amarr ship with the t1 crystals.
no ammo use
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Eternum Praetorian
Tupperware Party
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Posted - 2008.10.28 18:05:00 -
[10]
Thats just to much to re-quote...
This will suffice:
---No you don't need faction anything do you. Allot of mission runners do though don't they. The real PVP'ers do to don't they? And it always = an advantage.
---I don't like mission running much. Running team missions are a complete wast of time IMO. LP and bounties split 2,3,4 ways YES you are much better off running Lv 3's.
--Allot of PVP'ers are poor as hell and they love what they do. Lets just remove the ISK per hour Via trade too cause that is ridiculous risk VS reward factor.
---Oh yea... Make a hulk a cap ship cause they make to much ISK in Empire to
--- If no one goes to low sec why will it be camped? Give me a break...
When you say this:
First off, the much more likely scenario is that slightly PvP-oriented PvE-focused corps will take up residence in some lowsec areas, and (at least try to) police their space, cooperating with other half-carebearish, half-agressive corps.
I think that makes me want to take up pirating full time.
And when you say this...
Also, if the area is sufficiently populated, you won't have to leave it to get anything you need, since traders will undoubtedly seize the opportunity for profit enabled by the existance of a lowsec mission-hub where they can fetch better prices than in any highsec market hub.
I will never EVER need to fly a mission ever again. which would be pretty cool. But.... Not very fair now would it.
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Ghengis Tia
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Posted - 2008.10.28 18:06:00 -
[11]
I do Level IV missions solo, suits my style of play.
Low-sec Level IV's? Whaddaya need, a bunch of steenking friends to cover your arse while you play in Deadspace? As if they'd waste their time for a fraction of the bounty/reward/loot/salvage, while they could be running high-sec missions on their own.
I look at the maps of missions I've been assigned in low-sec space. Dead-end, single way in-out death traps. And I have to go in with mission fits, or a bunch of modules in the cargo to refit if I can find a station to dock at.
Then looking over my shoulder for some pendejo's while surrounded by NPC's.
And I'm supposed to risk fitted ship, implants, and agent/corp standing to be pirate bait?
***k pirates, I've donated enough ships and clones already to low-sec space plankton, let somebody else fess up.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.10.28 18:07:00 -
[12]
So what stops you from raiding lowsec hubs *RIGHT NOW* ? There's several with up to 20 genuine "kill-mission" runners in them. Hell, there are lowsecs positively FESTERING with macro-mission-runners too.
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Sofia Kyodai
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Posted - 2008.10.28 18:07:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Also, if the area is sufficiently populated, you won't have to leave it to get anything you need, since traders will undoubtedly seize the opportunity for profit enabled by the existance of a lowsec mission-hub where they can fetch better prices than in any highsec market hub.
I will never EVER need to fly a mission ever again. which would be pretty cool. But.... Not very fair now would it.
Well, if they do it in anything other than a blockade runner, they deserve to die anyway
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Eternum Praetorian
Tupperware Party
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Posted - 2008.10.28 18:10:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Akita T So what stops you from raiding lowsec hubs *RIGHT NOW* ? There's several with up to 20 genuine "kill-mission" runners in them. Hell, there are lowsecs positively FESTERING with macro-mission-runners too.
How does that compare with the influx of mission runners that would occur if a large portion of the already scarce LV 4 agents were moved to low sec?
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.10.28 18:19:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Akita T Learn to fly cheap stuff in missions. You don't NEED a full faction fit on a faction battleships to solo L4s, and you certainly don't even need battleships at all, especially if you work in teams.
While I support this (heck, I run L4s in T2-fit T1 cruisers and BCs), it kind of hints at what I see as the real problem: the complete incompatability between PvE and PvP fits.
PvE: Long-term, regenerative tanking designed towards suriving tons of low-damage enemies (ie. each kill only reduces incoming DPS by a small amount); long-term cap stablity is required; EWar a waste of space; speed is optional; damage output only needs to be enough to break the enemy's (slow) regenerative tank.
PvP: Short-term, buffer tanking designed towards suriving few high-damage enemies (ie. each kill massively reduces incoming DPS, or removes it entirely); only short-term/burst cap stability is needed; EWar a must; speed is a huge factor; damage output needs to be better than the enemy's (or, rather, the DPS-vs-EHP ratio needs to be better).
Combining the two isn't easily done: it doesn't create a golden middle-ground — it makes you suck at both (perhaps with one exception: non-deadspace missions, where speedtanking becomes an option). In addition, one of the parties involved — the "intruding" PvPer — doesn't need to make any concessions towards PvE and gets the added benefit of already having help from the mission rats.
So the alternatives are: fit for PvP and do hit-and-runs on the mission area, or fit for PvE and run away when a threat appears. Both means your mission-running effectivenes goes down the toilet and you're better off doing L3s in high-sec (and not just because it's safer).
As I see it, until the fitting problems are fixed (and according to Zulupark, it's not something they actually consider a problem), L4s in low-sec becomes a losing proposition, not just because of the higher risk, but because of the vastly reduced pay-out.
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Joshua Calvert
Caldari Safespot Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.28 18:22:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 28/10/2008 18:25:13
Originally by: Akita T
Quote: I can see no viable way to make an idea like this work. Are mission runners meant to be protected by a small fleet when they venture into a mission? Are they supposed to fit a cloak, or perhaps sacrifice mission fits for ones more viable in PVP? Either way you will still get pounced on by a gang that will be spending most of their time in eve looking for both you and people like you. And you will be venturing out into space repeatedly, over and over again, VIA a well know route.
Who says you have to do any of that ? First off, the much more likely scenario is that slightly PvP-oriented PvE-focused corps will take up residence in some lowsec areas, and (at least try to) police their space, cooperating with other half-carebearish, half-agressive corps. It's not like that wasn't already the situation 2-3 years ago, WHEN LOWSEC DIDN'T SUCK SO MUCH AS IT DOES TODAY. Make lowsec interesting again, and you might just see those days coming back. Also, if the area is sufficiently populated, you won't have to leave it to get anything you need, since traders will undoubtedly seize the opportunity for profit enabled by the existance of a lowsec mission-hub where they can fetch better prices than in any highsec market hub.
Low-sec has always sucked except for the first 3 months of Eve.
Traders won't move to low-sec - they want the easy play-afk opportunity and this means the most profitable routes will still be the high-sec ones.
The post above mine made a very good point related to traders staying high-sec - the profit margins won't be different enough in low-sec to make up for the hassle of navigating danger.
Peace and love, Josh
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Andrea Erlang
Caldari Erlang Biolabs
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Posted - 2008.10.28 18:29:00 -
[17]
Obviously the whole trading community wouldn't jump into low-sec, that's ridiculous. But some of them would.
Besides, all you need is a decent scout and some time to deliver the goods. It can be pretty safe if you know what you're doing. Unless the hub would be camped 23/7, but in that case we probably wouldn't see that much trading done there in the first place
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Joshua Calvert
Caldari Safespot Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.28 18:30:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Akita T So what stops you from raiding lowsec hubs *RIGHT NOW* ? There's several with up to 20 genuine "kill-mission" runners in them. Hell, there are lowsecs positively FESTERING with macro-mission-runners too.
I'm doubting the validity of this?
If it is TRUE, then there whole risk vs reward argument is meaningless because the people providing the risk clearly aren't taking advantage of afk-mission-runners - what makes you think they'd be any more inclined to tackle those who pay attention?
As for low-sec mission runners who aren't afk..do you know any who can provide an opinion on dangers?
Peace and love, Josh
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Joshua Calvert
Caldari Safespot Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.28 18:31:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Andrea Erlang Obviously the whole trading community wouldn't jump into low-sec, that's ridiculous. But some of them would.
Besides, all you need is a decent scout and some time to deliver the goods. It can be pretty safe if you know what you're doing. Unless the hub would be camped 23/7, but in that case we probably wouldn't see that much trading done there in the first place
It would need a high percentage of traders to move to have any affect, imo, and I just don't see that happening under any circumstances.
Peace and love, Josh
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Kumiko Komori
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Posted - 2008.10.28 18:32:00 -
[20]
I actually support the idea of moving all l4's to lowsec. Just make more l3's of high quality spread across hisec empire to attempt to reduce lag from the empire huggers. It would make l4's be like introductory l5's since people won't be bringing in faction fitted ships (unless they want a huge target on their backs', they can either try to attempt the mission solo, or actually bring some friends to finish off the mission.
Any complaints so far that I've seen is that they just dont want their pimped out ships to be shot at, or some people just like to fly solo. The first I don't agree with, as it seems to contradict the whole point of the game when you're flying a battle fitted ship, and the second can make just as much money ratting or doing 00 exploration.
L4's are just too much of an ISK faucet, considering how much ISK you get with little to no work along with almost no risk. (If you think this statement is wrong, then you're just doing it wrong. With mission guides and a t2 fitted raven or domi it's a snoozefest)
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Lady Aja
Caldari Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.10.28 18:32:00 -
[21]
Find a near empty low sec missions hub, plenty in arida.. make sure they have multiple lvl 4 agents so you can pick missions in system.
mission in peace..
the end!
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Eternum Praetorian
Tupperware Party
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Posted - 2008.10.28 18:33:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Andrea Erlang Obviously the whole trading community wouldn't jump into low-sec, that's ridiculous. But some of them would.
Besides, all you need is a decent scout and some time to deliver the goods. It can be pretty safe if you know what you're doing. Unless the hub would be camped 23/7, but in that case we probably wouldn't see that much trading done there in the first place
In a word yes... It would be |
Joshua Calvert
Caldari Safespot Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.28 18:35:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 28/10/2008 18:36:42
Originally by: Kumiko Komori
L4's are just too much of an ISK faucet, considering how much ISK you get with little to no work along with almost no risk. (If you think this statement is wrong, then you're just doing it wrong. With mission guides and a t2 fitted raven or domi it's a snoozefest)
I don't think anyone has an argument against LVL4's being high isk-earners.
There's just no solution to it without dramatically reducing the isk rewards, quality of loot and loyalty points store options.
Don't forget, a lot of traders only make money because these LVL4 mission runners have isk to burn to buy high class modules...take away their isk and the traders lose out which means less people can afford PvP (because most of the best modules come from 0.0 space...)
Utopia situation is EVERYONE downscales equally and we see less BC+ class ships fighting....which might be nice.
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Eternum Praetorian
Tupperware Party
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Posted - 2008.10.28 18:43:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 28/10/2008 18:47:20
Originally by: Kumiko Komori
Any complaints so far that I've seen is that they just dont want their pimped out ships to be shot at, or some people just like to fly solo.
This is very very short sighted.
PVE fitted ships CANT PVP. |
Joshua Calvert
Caldari Safespot Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.28 18:49:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Originally by: Kumiko Komori
Any complaints so far that I've seen is that they just dont want their pimped out ships to be shot at, or some people just like to fly solo.
This is very very short sighted.
PVE ships CANT PVP.
Assuming you're PvE'ing solo, yes.
However, what about groups? Surely a few eWar specialised ships can be used - keep them hanging back at distance, aligned to safety, but close enough to break the locks on any ships targetting your mission running heavyweight and giving him a chance to get out?
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.10.28 18:57:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Tippia on 28/10/2008 18:58:51
Originally by: Joshua Calvert Assuming you're PvE'ing solo, yes.
However, what about groups? Surely a few eWar specialised ships can be used - keep them hanging back at distance, aligned to safety, but close enough to break the locks on any ships targetting your mission running heavyweight and giving him a chance to get out?
Grouping certainly works, using a number of different ship setups and combination, but it also means sharing the rewards, which once again means you're better off doing L3s back in highsec.
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Eternum Praetorian
Tupperware Party
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Posted - 2008.10.28 19:00:00 -
[27]
not to mention Low sec already has very high paying agents that require teamwork.
They are called LV 5 missions.
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Joshua Calvert
Caldari Safespot Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.28 19:02:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 28/10/2008 18:58:51
Originally by: Joshua Calvert Assuming you're PvE'ing solo, yes.
However, what about groups? Surely a few eWar specialised ships can be used - keep them hanging back at distance, aligned to safety, but close enough to break the locks on any ships targetting your mission running heavyweight and giving him a chance to get out?
Grouping certainly works, using a number of different ship setups and combination, but it also means sharing the rewards, which once again means you're better off doing L3s back in highsec.
It certainly does...there's no win-win solution to the problem of LVL4 missions that I can see.
Peace and love, Josh
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Joshua Calvert
Caldari Safespot Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.28 19:02:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian not to mention Low sec already has very high paying agents that require teamwork.
They are called LV 5 missions.
And how popular are they? What are THEIR rewards?
Peace and love, Josh
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Eternum Praetorian
Tupperware Party
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Posted - 2008.10.28 19:07:00 -
[30]
well on that topic I honestly have no clue.
I have low motivation to run Lv 4 missions let alone tackle LV 5's
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