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Protheroe
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Posted - 2008.10.30 07:35:00 -
[1]
Reading about the planned changes to Blockade Runners, it looks like these ships will be getting a very well defined set of abilities.
Transports, on the other hand, seem to me like a ship class still searching for a role. They are tougher than normal industrials, but not tough enough to make their bonuses meaningful in most situations. The planned +2 increase to their base warp strength I think is a step in the right direction, but will probably only be effective in encounters with lone ships, especially since transports lack the speed and agility which made for an effective combination on Blockade Runners.
Being able to escape from solo ships is a bonus, but these are supposed to be Deep Space Transports, which to me means they are designed primarily with 0.0 space in mind, where it's more likely to run into gangs and heavy gate camps.
The Dev Blog suggests that the role of the Deep Space Transports (with the new tanking bonuses designed to give the ships a HP buffer) will be to brute force through opposition, in contrast to the Blockade Runners' stealth and evasion. Instead, they will rely on having strong enough defenses to withstand an attack until they have an opportunity to escape (in empire, being able to align out, in 0.0, getting out of a bubble), at which point their +2 warp strength comes into play.
I don't think that +2 warp strength will give a DST much chance of escape in most situations, and the 5% per level fitting bonus to plates and extenders is too small to open up many interesting new fitting options, let alone make realistic buffer fits possible. The armor bonused transports in particular suffer here, as they must forego the cargo space that gives them their biggest advantage over the Bloackade Runners in order to fit a tank, whereas the shield tankers get the best of both worlds, being able to fit for both cargo space and HP.
Below are some ideas for focusing the DST's new "brute force" approach to gate camps. Some of these suggestions are probably overpowered or unworkable, but I present them as possible starting points for new ideas for anyone who agrees that Transports still need some attention.
- Replace the base +2 warp strength with a +1 bonus to warp strength per Transport Ships level. This may give a well skilled transport pilot a fighting chance of beating the odds against small to medium sized gate camps, though the HIC would still be its nemesis.
- Increase the fitting bonus to armor plates and shield extenders from 5% to 10% or 15% per level. This would give a well skilled pilot the option of fitting the best plates and extenders available and would make for stronger buffer fits more suited to the ships' intended role.
- Give the ships some inherent resistance to the effects of stasis webifiers. A buffer tank alone will not give a transport an opportunity to escape a bubble if it is webbed, which is almost inevitable.
- Give the ships a Black Ops/Stealth Bomber style bonus to their cloaked velocity. This could fill the same role as a web resistance bonus, but perhaps verges on the Bloackade Runner's territory, and might risk making the HP bonuses redundant.
- Other possibilities could be Smart Bomb or ECM Burst bonuses to complement its "hot" rather than the Blockade Runners' "cold" approach to encounters, but it is difficult to think of bonuses like these which wouldn't risk giving the ships inappropriate fleet roles.
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Nekopyat
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Posted - 2008.10.30 14:25:00 -
[2]
I like the changes to the blockade runner, but the DST change seems to miss the point concerning why that +2WCS was no longer useful on the BR in the first place.
What I could see REALLY giving the DST a role would be making it a true counter to the HIC, specifically, un-scram-able. Since these things are big and slow they still have to allign and warp so they would not be invulnerable to gate camps, but they would hold the title of only ship that is immune to the (rather overpowered) infinite scram of the HIC, giving it a pretty special role.
Now, if we look at this form a 'tech war' type perspective, this makes some realistic sense. Someone comes up with an i-win button called the HIC, various factions are going to be scrambling to find a way to counter it's new capability. Advance, counter advance.
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar Out of Order
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Posted - 2008.10.30 14:35:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Nekopyat I like the changes to the blockade runner, but the DST change seems to miss the point concerning why that +2WCS was no longer useful on the BR in the first place.
What I could see REALLY giving the DST a role would be making it a true counter to the HIC, specifically, un-scram-able. Since these things are big and slow they still have to allign and warp so they would not be invulnerable to gate camps, but they would hold the title of only ship that is immune to the (rather overpowered) infinite scram of the HIC, giving it a pretty special role.
Now, if we look at this form a 'tech war' type perspective, this makes some realistic sense. Someone comes up with an i-win button called the HIC, various factions are going to be scrambling to find a way to counter it's new capability. Advance, counter advance.
Nothing escapes a HIC, not even a titan.
This is not hello kitty online.
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Splash Whale
Ctrl-Q Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.30 18:42:00 -
[4]
Let's be honest here. You dont see transports ships very often in lowsec or 0.0 .
However, they are meant to be used for transporting stuff over there.
With the changes they are coming back to lowsec/0.0 which will mean you will see them more.
You will get more kills because if more people come more people can feck up and die horribly.
Buff for everyone really ----
When in doubt, Ctrl-Q. |
Nekopyat
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Posted - 2008.10.30 19:11:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Nothing escapes a HIC, not even a titan.
This is not hello kitty online.
Which is why it would be a unique role.
And keep in mind, the hello kitty argument goes both ways, i-win buttons are bad in both directions. Haulers should not have a 100% guaranteed way to escape, Campers should not have a 100% way to trap. Right now HICs are that 100% on the campers side. Having a ship that levels the field again would be a good thing.
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Lili Lu
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
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Posted - 2008.10.30 19:42:00 -
[6]
a hp bonus per level might be decent. but fitting plates on a blockade runner?
Anyone who does that please tell me where you travel. I would like to become a pirate now.
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Azuse
Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests Pure.
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Posted - 2008.10.30 20:02:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Lili Lu a hp bonus per level might be decent. but fitting plates on a blockade runner?
Anyone who does that please tell me where you travel. I would like to become a pirate now.
You missed the point i think... -------------------------
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Opertone
Caldari SIEGE. United Legion
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Posted - 2008.10.30 20:20:00 -
[8]
the covert ops cloak is so sweet!
sadly the bubble pull mechanic sucks righto into the same spot every time, smart people always drop a container there. When you arrive you see yourself colliding with a container, unable to align or cloak. You need a 1000 km away BM for every remote gate, or the covert ops transport may not be so immune to blockades.
+ 2 WCs bonus on DST will never make it, w/o cargo expanders the ship only has a little more space than a blockade runner. But every decent gate camp has 3 interceptors and an interdictor.
Log off and hope that they can't break your plated tank before your ship disappears, like all freighters.
0.0 gates are impassable, light ships get shot down by smart bombs, heavy ships are tackled and stealthy ships stumble on a 'clever' container. It is obvious why expensive things are jumped with regular carriers. And big bulks are delivered by 'escorted' freighter. Typical hyena is the best scout and webber for a freighter.
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Lili Lu
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
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Posted - 2008.10.30 20:30:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Azuse
Originally by: Lili Lu a hp bonus per level might be decent. but fitting plates on a blockade runner?
Anyone who does that please tell me where you travel. I would like to become a pirate now.
You missed the point i think...
Lol, ok. Well the title of the thread should say Deep Space Tranports instead of Blockade Runners.
Anyway what in-game role is a DST tanking hauler really supposed to play. In 0.0 you have a dedicated tank in the belt. If you are trying to avoid gatecamps, unless you are going to give the DSTs the same overpowered passive shield tanks that Broadswords and Onyx have, then the speed and agility of Blockade Runners are more conducive to survival. I really don't see the point
Regardless, armor bonuses whether plate based or repper based on blockade runners is stupid.
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Praxis1452
20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.30 21:26:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Nekopyat
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Nothing escapes a HIC, not even a titan.
This is not hello kitty online.
Which is why it would be a unique role.
And keep in mind, the hello kitty argument goes both ways, i-win buttons are bad in both directions. Haulers should not have a 100% guaranteed way to escape, Campers should not have a 100% way to trap. Right now HICs are that 100% on the campers side. Having a ship that levels the field again would be a good thing.
In Low-sec it's easy to escape a hic. Also use a BR if you want to escape a HIC. BR's are uncatchable in low sec if you know what you're doing. -------------------------------------------- ôHe who must expend his life to prolong life cannot enjoy it, and he who is still seeking for his life does not have it and can as little enjoy it" |
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DiseL
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Associates
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Posted - 2008.10.31 04:16:00 -
[11]
I like the ideas for the buff but a little shocked there was no mention of the Crane getting a powergrid increase to make it viable.
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Alexander Knott
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.11.04 05:38:00 -
[12]
More or less agree with the points about DSTs. I use my Impel as a sub-freighter that gives me 45km3 of space for moving around our industrial hubs. The new HP bonuses will not encourage me to tank this ship in any way since it already has enough HP to escape a lone tackler with its +2 WCS. A small gang will have no trouble tackling and killing it and an extra 20% HP won't change that in the least. If the goal is to make it so these ships can last until help arrives, then at the very least it needs to fit a BS class tank, if not better.
----- "I like to loot, especially going to the can of the battleship, sometimes there is a surprise inside, sometimes there is only carp..." |
Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative
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Posted - 2008.11.04 06:15:00 -
[13]
You might not care, but anyone hauling valuables in empire knows that every second counts. Thus the HP bonus is perfect for the DST, imo.
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sliver 0xD
exiles. The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2008.11.04 08:27:00 -
[14]
funny to see that everything carebear like gets a boost. and all pvpers will get a nerf.
i would realy like to see more players go into lowsec and 0.0. we are playing for over 5 years now and still we cant manage to create a stable empire in 0.0.
the OP is right the covert cloak is stupid. it is a fun thing to jump bridge a cloaked hauler around but this is overpowered. i honestly do not see how i could catch one after this boost.
what i like to see is that the blockade runner actualy takes a shot and gets out. thats how i use my blockade runner and thats how everyone should do it :)
pirates always want the best loot. if the best loot is moved in unstopable ships then the profesion pirate will get a huge nerf with this. --- Somebody needs a hug! |
Naru Kraurr
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.11.04 10:11:00 -
[15]
Would it be possible to maybe let them carry a bit more too?
My Mastadon with 2 Cargo Optimization Rigs and 5 T2 Expanders lets me carry just under 30,000m3.
Just thought I'd say since it's been bugging me for a while.
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Tsabrock
Gallente Circle of Friends
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Posted - 2008.11.05 13:53:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Tsabrock on 05/11/2008 13:55:28 So far, I do like the changes to the Blockade Runners. Some people want a second high slot on them, and I'm not sure if I'd like that or not. It would be nice to fit a cloak & something else (Cynosural Generator or Salvager), but I don't think it's really necessary.
The Deep Space Transports, however are a little disappointing after playing around with some fittings on SiSi. I use the Impel transport, and with my current skills I could get the ship up to around 15k armor at the expense of everything else (including cargo capacity) - using all 400mm armor plating. Alternatively, I could fit one (maybe 2 with higher skills) of the 800mm plates. I ran out of time to look at it closer, but my guesstimate right now is that practical armor amount would be less than 10k (while maintaining a little cargo capacity).
I don't have the ability to play with shield-tanking DST's, but I definitely see them having a distinct advantage in this department since the can use their medium slots for the extra hit points without sacrificing any of their cargo capacity OR maneuverability. They do suffer a small signature radius increase with each extender, but I see that as minor compared to the loss of agility (due to increased mass) that comes with Armor Plating.
I need to look at the numbers more when I get the time to go back onto SiSi. --- AMD 64 4400+ X2 (Dual-Core) 4GB Corsair XMS Memory (2336) ASUS A8N-SLI Premium (1.09 Bios) GeForce 7800GTX 256 Megs; eVGA brand Windows XP Pro and Vista Ultimate 64-bit (Dual-Boot) |
Sinistro
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Posted - 2008.11.06 06:14:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Tsabrock Edited by: Tsabrock on 05/11/2008 13:55:28 So far, I do like the changes to the Blockade Runners. Some people want a second high slot on them, and I'm not sure if I'd like that or not. It would be nice to fit a cloak & something else (Cynosural Generator or Salvager), but I don't think it's really necessary. .
And why not, it will make this ship class more flexible to use it in different kind of roles and I am sure it wont be over powered, so I see no reason why not 2 high slots, 1 for the cloak and 1 for salvager or cycno generator.
Yes I would like to see 2 high slots as well, no reason why they would not have it.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.11.06 07:40:00 -
[18]
The HST should recieve a few things, some of which have already been mentioned, others not.
It should get the +2 (or +1/lvl) warp strength. It should be immune to HIC & Dictor bubbles, but not the Focused HIC or Anchored bubbles. It should recieve a rather large increase in its maneuverability (aligning speed), or raw velocity so that it can make a run for it. Currently HST's haven't got a prayer, even with MWDs, of getting back to the gate or out of the bubble.
Cargo can stay the same, and it should get decent T2 resistances (dependant on racial specs). No cov-ops bonuses or cloak ability.
As for the Blockade Runners The all need at least 3 highs. For cloak, tractor (wreck recovery), and maybe a salvager.
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