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Jas Dor
Republic University Minmatar Republic
101
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Posted - 2012.04.03 18:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
According to the most recent devblog giving a loan to an RMTer can result in both loss of isk and banning. I'm guessing what happened here is Player A gives loan to player B, Account C (with tainted isk) is used to repay player A. Result, CCP takes away all the isk Player A got from player B through account C and gives player A, revokes player A's character transfer privileges and gives player A a (presumably temporary ban).
So that means either one of two things: 1. Loans will have to go through the forums and be publically posted to avoid CCP issues or; 2. Public posting won't provide any protection, greatly increasing the risks in getting involved in the player loan market. |
David Forge
Forge Enterprises
100
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Posted - 2012.04.03 18:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'm fairly certain that CCP will be implementing this in a way that gives players the benefit of the doubt. In other words there would have to be reasonable suspicion that Person B knew they were dealing with an RMTer. |
Lauren Hellfury
Full Pocket Aggro In Vitro.
304
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Posted - 2012.04.03 19:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
You're an idiot.
The "loan" is just an attempt to disguise the fact that they are providing the Isk Sellers with the ISK to SELL. It's not a loan, both sides know that. It works both ways too.
1) I purchase isk from dodgyeveisk.com and their in-game teller totallynotan rmtalt sends me some isk with the reason of "200B loan @ 3% for 90 days" or whatever.
2) I plunder my bot accounts for large piles of isk and because of leet connections get on the bat-phone to the owner of dodgyeveisk.com to sell him some Isk because I need another container of cheetohs. I also use the "this is totally a loan and not a dodgy rmt transfer" reason.
THAT is what they are talking about. The goings on in here are quite irrelevent. Help rid New Eden of T2 BPOs:-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=62797 The Full Pocket Aggro blog:-á http://fullpocketaggro.blogspot.com/ Now showing: The incursion situation |
Shar Tegral
140
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Posted - 2012.04.03 19:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
Lauren Hellfury wrote:The goings on in here are quite irrelevent. I dunno. There are a number of loans here that get funded by relative unknowns to relative unknowns for no apparent reason. Then you don't here if was paid or ran off with, just silence. I think it would be naive to think that it has not happened via here a couple of times.
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Lauren Hellfury
Full Pocket Aggro In Vitro.
304
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Posted - 2012.04.03 19:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
Whilst that is true, I would still doubt that CCP are going to be looking in here for anything suspicious. Help rid New Eden of T2 BPOs:-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=62797 The Full Pocket Aggro blog:-á http://fullpocketaggro.blogspot.com/ Now showing: The incursion situation |
Shar Tegral
140
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Posted - 2012.04.03 20:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
Lauren Hellfury wrote:Whilst that is true, I would still doubt that CCP are going to be looking in here for anything suspicious. .. or exculpatory.
See, it is not for suspicion to be created here. CCP has means to track things and will find culprits without using this forum. However what about those ***** are unknowingly culpable? While this is speculative I do not doubt that it could, and probably will, happen.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
494
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Posted - 2012.04.03 22:05:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lauren Hellfury wrote:Whilst that is true, I would still doubt that CCP are going to be looking in here for anything suspicious.
Anybody recalls the Cosmoray case?
He was trusted. SUPER trusted. He was upstanding. SUPER upstanding. Not even winking at pirates or something like Bad Bobby did. He posted everything here in public and on the forums.
Yet he tangentially ended up trading something with an RMTer (without knowing it).
At the same time one alt of mine held collateral with his alt, in a corp of his. That was actually a favor of him to me: a relatively unknown new 3rd party guy being accepted into the super trusted MD guy collateral holding corp with collateral voting powers.
CCP rained HELL on everyone around and probably this is the inner reason why Cosmoray later on scammed. They probably confiscated him ISK or whatever.
This just to say how easy is to stay out of "anything suspicious".
He was one of the "I need 100B => everybody throws him ISK in 10 minutes" guys, known, official, everything. Yet it was not enough.
And I have more cases and I have litigated with completely blind and deaf CCP customer service so much, that was another of the reasons I quit EvE about 1 year ago.
They give us the promise of a sandbox but not the tools to defend ourself, not the tools to deal with certified clean investees and then they officially state (see the Security Devblog for specific answers to me about it) it's our burden to deal with clean people.
Just imagine this: Chribba being banned and purple letter flagged because he SURELY has dealt with some RMTed supercapital in the past, he transacted too many of them to not have statistically ended in such a case. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Shar Tegral
142
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Posted - 2012.04.03 22:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:And I have more cases and I have litigated with completely blind and deaf CCP customer service so much, that was another of the reasons I quit EvE about 1 year ago.
They give us the promise of a sandbox but not the tools to defend ourself, not the tools to deal with certified clean investees and then they officially state (see the Security Devblog for specific answers to me about it) it's our burden to deal with clean people.
Just imagine this: Chribba being banned and purple letter flagged because he SURELY has dealt with some RMTed supercapital in the past, he transacted too many of them to not have statistically ended in such a case. I made a similar argument here.
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Lady Godwynn
Cobalt Valkyrie Industries The Ambivalent
24
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Posted - 2012.04.03 22:23:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP has on many occasions stated that loans and other forms of out of game arrangements are not officially a part of their game and that they do not have to take them into consideration regarding actions they take regarding the game.
To me, a relatively new player of the game, it seems pretty clear that you loan isk to strangers, provide collateral holding services to strangers, run a bank, or in any other way accept large amounts of isk from people you don't know - means that you do so at your own risk.
Just the way I read the party manifesto
Yours Lady Godwynn |
cuoredipietra famedoro
The Cognitive Faction Permanent Transience
2
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Posted - 2012.04.03 22:44:00 -
[10] - Quote
Lady Godwynn wrote:CCP has on many occasions stated that loans and other forms of out of game arrangements are not officially a part of their game and that they do not have to take them into consideration regarding actions they take regarding the game.
this is CCP mistake and should be addressed by either
> by giving us tools to defend from RMTs > implement game mechanics to what MDers do everyday as metagame (loans, shares, bonds & the like)
Fact is they will have to address this issues sooner or later... in fact:
as long as the game goes on and old toons keep playing, they become richer and richer up to the point where investesting ISK into other's ventures becomes the most effective way to grow the ingame capital.
For example: if you were to had 1 Trillion ISK, would you still consider T2 or capital production an efficient use of *all* your ISK? I doubt the ROI would be interesting. On the other side, investing on other's ventures could land better ROI. |
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Lady Godwynn
Cobalt Valkyrie Industries The Ambivalent
24
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Posted - 2012.04.03 23:06:00 -
[11] - Quote
I couldn't find a link referencing what I said above, but CCP Sreegs just posted this in his thread:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1072271#post1072271
CCP Sreegs wrote: "My job isn't to secure the loans your corporation is making outside of the game mechanics. That is your risk and always will be.
:edit: and always has been"
So, until CCP changes that stance, should you still provide loans?
Yours Lady Godwynn |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
496
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Posted - 2012.04.03 23:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
This is my reply:
When I will be banned just because I did what people on the Market Discussion forum do since years (EvE finance) or because I did what Chribba does (holding ships and collateral for third parties) or just because I got paid with RMT money for a BPO I sold (notice, no loan here), then at least I'll be able to wait for the unban and then link these posts as a "hey I was right" reminder.
Meager consolation, eh?
Re read this: Chribba can be banned too and then who in hell will provide his SECURE service?
Also, you sell a BPO, get paid RMTed money, you get banned. Then after 1+ months of screaming with the most sordid customer service except EA's, you get unbanned but you lost the BPO and the ISK. And you lost your POS, which went offline and got ransacked. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Nub Sauce
State War Academy Caldari State
18
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Posted - 2012.04.03 23:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
From the sound of things, banning people who have simply received dirty isk isn't the plan. Why would they bother subtracting the isk and putting people into the negative if they're just going to up and ban the account?
Clearly there is a line drawn somewhere where certain offenses get you banned and others just bring the wrath to your wallet.
My guess:
Sell isk via RMT: Banned Buy isk via RMT: Wallet gets negged for the amount of isk illegally gained. Receive isk from someone who purchased it via RMT: I'm not sure, this probably depends on if they suspect that you're involved or were just selling some goods via a contract or something and are actually innocent.
Is there any info posted on this somewhere? I didn't see any specifics in the video that cover this. There must be more to it than just banning if they are bothering to seize assets and isk. Why bother hitting their wallet if they can never log in again?
Edit: Of course, I could totally off and the buyers also get banned then the isk, wherever it has ended up, gets subtracted from someone's wallet. But then, that seems odd since it could easily be penalizing completely innocent players who legitmately sold something they worked hard to build/obtain in the first place. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
496
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Posted - 2012.04.03 23:44:00 -
[14] - Quote
Read the latest security blog. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Darth Tickles
Dark Sun Consortium
141
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Posted - 2012.04.03 23:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
Yes, the needs of ten nerds playing make-believe spaceships finance should outweigh efforts to save the entire game from botting and rmt.
1) Nothing has actually happened. 2) If you don't feel safe enough and worry something might happen, stop doing it.
Nobody cares about this ridiculous and infinitesimal subculture that has developed here, and nobody ever will.
Actually, everyone who cares should unsub in protest.
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Shar Tegral
143
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Posted - 2012.04.04 00:07:00 -
[16] - Quote
You know I felt bad for Iceland when the UK froze bank assets by calling them terrorists. After all, it was ridiculous however it was part of the legal mechanics so, using Sreegs mentality, it was okay.
I haven't run a bond in a long time and after this I'm not holding any collateral for anyone. Also I really need to not be any alliance or corporation either. Scratch the market as well. Once guilt by association is guaranteed the massive multi-player part has been gutted from MMO.
Yes, it is an extremely unlikely possibility for this to happen. However I have no doubt that someone will specifically engage in RMT, on a disposable account, for the sole purpose of tainting the account of an enemy. Sounds like pure idiocy, but we've already got that in bucket loads. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
496
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Posted - 2012.04.04 00:08:00 -
[17] - Quote
Darth Tickles wrote:Yes, the needs of ten nerds playing make-believe spaceships finance should outweigh efforts to save the entire game from botting and rmt.
1) Nothing has actually happened. 2) If you don't feel safe enough and worry something might happen, stop doing it.
Nobody cares about this ridiculous and infinitesimal subculture that has developed here, and nobody ever will.
Actually, everyone who cares should unsub in protest.
While I appreciate the enthusiastic optimism of your reply, it does not address the fact that all those tasked at reimbursing ships (see Goonswarm reimburser post in the security thread) and everybody who sells something could be affected. There's more than ten nerds in EvE who sell capital BPOs and similar. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Nub Sauce
State War Academy Caldari State
18
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Posted - 2012.04.04 00:10:00 -
[18] - Quote
I read the latest info. It seems my first guess is pretty close.
As for dealing in loans with an RMTer, if there will be banning/punishment it sounds like it'll be a case by case basis. I bet it all depends on if they believe you are part of the RMT ring or an innocent person giving someone a loan. |
Darth Tickles
Dark Sun Consortium
141
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Posted - 2012.04.04 00:20:00 -
[19] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:While I appreciate the enthusiastic optimism of your reply, it does not address the fact that all those tasked at reimbursing ships (see Goonswarm reimburser post in the security thread) and everybody who sells something could be affected. There's more than ten nerds in EvE who sell capital BPOs and similar.
ROFL
I'm sure there is great concern that alliance SRPs will be used as a cover for RMT...80m at a time...all within one alliance.
Get a grip.
The issue is that a "loan system" is actually a VERY good cover for people transferring huge sums of ISK between nominal strangers for nothing in return.
Again, nothing has actually happened, and if you're truly concerned about getting falsely flagged for dealing with RMTers, then stop exchanging huge sums of ISK with strangers. Very simple. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
496
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Posted - 2012.04.04 00:23:00 -
[20] - Quote
Nub Sauce wrote:I read the latest info. It seems my first guess is pretty close.
As for dealing in loans with an RMTer, if there will be banning/punishment it sounds like it'll be a case by case basis. I bet it all depends on if they believe you are part of the RMT ring or an innocent person giving someone a loan.
Yeah but they don't send you a nice mail stating you are under investigation. They downright ban you for weeks FIRST, and then you can try to bring in your case, then escalate it (the first level GMs are usually useless) and blah blah, while your subscription money is ticking, while your corporation is collapsing, while your structures are offlining...
If you end up proving you were legit (I don't know how, I don't think there are any ways to prove your innocence) you still keep all the losses. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
496
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Posted - 2012.04.04 00:25:00 -
[21] - Quote
Darth Tickles wrote: ROFL
I'm sure there is great concern that alliance SRPs will be used as a cover for RMT...80m at a time...all within one alliance.
Get a grip.
Considering 2 of 2 alliance SRPs got banned and then had to petition their accounts back...
Sure you won't have great concern (it's not like you generally show much concern about anything anyway) but others do. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Darth Tickles
Dark Sun Consortium
141
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Posted - 2012.04.04 00:33:00 -
[22] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Considering 2 of 2 alliance SRPs got banned and then had to petition their accounts back...
Sure you won't have great concern (it's not like you generally show much concern about anything anyway) but others do.
link?
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Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
22
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Posted - 2012.04.04 00:49:00 -
[23] - Quote
Untill CCP treats botting the same as RMT I will have no sympathy or support for their campaign against it. Currently getting caught botting is a minor inconvince while getting caught selling isk is perma insta ban, this is unfair. CCP should perma ban botters along with RMT sellers.
As long as bots are in the game CCP will have to deal with RMT untill they realise this, let the RMT and cheap isk flow.
Think if CCP actually actively removed bots with client based monitoring RMT would not even be a problem as it would actually be fairly aquired ISK and thus hurting no one to sell. CCP could actually compete with players in ISK selling while still monopolising the PLEX market insuring guarnteed revenue each month per subscription.
Kill the bots and KIll the RMT. Make Eve REAL! |
Shar Tegral
143
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Posted - 2012.04.04 00:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Kill the bots and KIll the RMT. Make Eve REAL! Thank you for loudly taking a stand that everyone else already has taken.
So, anything to add? I mean for real.
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Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
22
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Posted - 2012.04.04 01:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
Shar Tegral wrote:Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Kill the bots and KIll the RMT. Make Eve REAL! Thank you for loudly taking a stand that everyone else already has taken. So, anything to add? I mean for real.
Funny when ever anyone mentions client side security mesures people pull the old ''privacy concern'' bullshit. Either these people bot or run a kiddy fiddling file share site. Either way they should use seperate machines for that and encourage CCP to destroy botting by WHAT EVER MEANS. |
Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
24
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Posted - 2012.04.04 01:15:00 -
[26] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Think if CCP actually actively removed bots with client based monitoring RMT would not even be a problem as it would actually be fairly aquired ISK and thus hurting no one to sell. CCP could actually compete with players in ISK selling while still monopolising the PLEX market insuring guarnteed revenue each month per subscription.
From the player perspective, bots are the major problem because they have an unfair advantage over a person in wealth creation. However, from CCP's perspective, RMT is the major problem because it reduces the amount of income CCP makes through PLEX sales. Currently CCP focuses more on banning RMT than banning bots. Your solution inverts that schema such that little focus would be on banning RMT, at CCP's expense.
Both RMT and botting should be bannable offenses. Andarius Trading Corp. | Borrowers and Trustees of MD |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
578
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Posted - 2012.04.04 01:29:00 -
[27] - Quote
There is no way to know the ISK and items you are trading are legit and won't be confiscated.
I was once banned in Ultima Online for possessing duped items As I purchased a lot of rare stuff, back in the days when Markee Dragon was THE rares trader, I inevitably ended-up with some forgeries in my possession.
I was eventually cleared of any wrong-doing, but that was quite a scare to lose my account!
Recently I discovered my 14 year old subscribed account was mistakenly cancelled when they recently moved to a different billing system. My tower and all the rares it contained are lost forever. I hope somebody managed to grab some goodies from the collapsed tower.
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Jas Dor
Republic University Minmatar Republic
102
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Posted - 2012.04.04 04:17:00 -
[28] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Untill CCP treats botting the same as RMT I will have no sympathy or support for their campaign against it. Currently getting caught botting is a minor inconvince while getting caught selling isk is perma insta ban, this is unfair. CCP should perma ban botters along with RMT sellers.
As long as bots are in the game CCP will have to deal with RMT untill they realise this, let the RMT and cheap isk flow.
Think if CCP actually actively removed bots with client based monitoring RMT would not even be a problem as it would actually be fairly aquired ISK and thus hurting no one to sell. CCP could actually compete with players in ISK selling while still monopolising the PLEX market insuring guarnteed revenue each month per subscription.
Kill the bots and KIll the RMT. Make Eve REAL!
According to some of the latest botter tears CCP has been giving out permabans on botting. Something about the two week bans not getting the point across.
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Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
508
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Posted - 2012.04.04 05:32:00 -
[29] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:There is no way to know the ISK and items you are trading are legit and won't be confiscated. confiscation of isk/items is not the problem
looking like an isk seller because you gave a loan to someone who is engaged in RMT and consequently standing to lose your accounts is the problem.
as Tickles said: loans can be a very good cover for RMT
....and once you are accused of having sold ISK how are you going to prove that you did not receive real life money in return?
all CCP can do is look at your transactions and say "well, these two players seem to have no prior history that would explain why Rich Guy sent RMT Guy 80b ISK. Guess he tried to convert some of his EVE wealth into dollars... :banhammer:"
what CCP does not know and what you never can hope to prove is that you were actually scammed by RMT Guy and had given the loan in good faith based on 2 years of interaction on a 3rd party IRC channel. |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
22
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Posted - 2012.04.04 07:32:00 -
[30] - Quote
Jas Dor wrote:Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Untill CCP treats botting the same as RMT I will have no sympathy or support for their campaign against it. Currently getting caught botting is a minor inconvince while getting caught selling isk is perma insta ban, this is unfair. CCP should perma ban botters along with RMT sellers.
As long as bots are in the game CCP will have to deal with RMT untill they realise this, let the RMT and cheap isk flow.
Think if CCP actually actively removed bots with client based monitoring RMT would not even be a problem as it would actually be fairly aquired ISK and thus hurting no one to sell. CCP could actually compete with players in ISK selling while still monopolising the PLEX market insuring guarnteed revenue each month per subscription.
Kill the bots and KIll the RMT. Make Eve REAL! According to some of the latest botter tears CCP has been giving out permabans on botting. Something about the two week bans not getting the point across.
I'd suggest these botters were linked to RMT to get banned. As stands botting is only perma bannable after 3 warnings. I'm personally saving my 3 warnings for some dedicated activity to take full advantage of the oppertunity and make the most legit ISK in my 2 hits. |
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