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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Naqam Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.11.01 16:30:00 -
[1]
Current range: 82.7km
Range on Sisi: around 30km
Any reason why this is happening? Fitting HAMLs to ships is already hard enough and there's already plenty of downsides to get that little bit more DPS, but is completely nerfing the range of Jav HAMS (to the point where it's arguably not worth carrying them anymore, or even fitting HAMLs at all) really neccessary?
Jav HAMLs are basically HMLs now, but do less damage, have a lower explosion velocity AND slow you down when you load them (thus: are much worse). The versatility they had of being able to keep HML range was really a very important part of the reason to use them at all.
/end whine
- Infectious - |
Jin Entres
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.11.01 16:35:00 -
[2]
Awesome.
It's time Caldari got to know what short range really means. ----------------------
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2008.11.01 16:37:00 -
[3]
About time. The old range was ridiculous.
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Bazman
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.11.01 16:39:00 -
[4]
This is actually balancing. Do you not think 87km for a high damage close range missile weapon is a bit high? 30km is still more range than you get out of other races equivelents (Null on blasters, barrage on auto's, even scorch on med pulses)
Never the less, you can use them on a cerb and still get a range kick with them. -----
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Baron Agamemnon
Caldari Holy Grail Constructiion
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Posted - 2008.11.01 17:20:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Baron Agamemnon on 01/11/2008 17:20:35 I agree, Javelines are getting nerfed too hard. Only 50% range on so short range missiles is not worth it, and they deal 10% less damage per missile. The other new stats I do not know, but if they retian the same stats in regards to explosion velocity and such they are utter crap now, its a lot better to MWD inot range with faction missiles. Javelines was the only T2 ammo that was viabel for missiles at all, and when you used them you had hefty penelties. Sure maby 80km was a bit long, but for a missile that can go 20 km (and that at max skills!), 50% more is not good, not good at all.
Originally by: Jin Entres Awesome.
It's time Caldari got to know what short range really means.
Caldari is focused on range, its their thing, check it up sometime before you blurt out nonsense. And killing the thing they are good at kill the race. HAM (and Trops) is the only decent thing they got close range for the bigger vessles, and the T2 ammo made the close range weapons more versatile, and they need it. (All oter weapon system can change range by ammo, why not missiles?)
And for the Creb post: One ship is not enough to justify it!
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Lindsay Logan
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Posted - 2008.11.01 17:26:00 -
[6]
I asked Zulu about it. I did not get satsifactoy answer (No offecne Zulu, I just do not think 50% is that good ;) ).
Hope they re think it to at least 100% range, if not more.
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Kaileen Starsong
Amarr Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.01 17:28:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Baron Agamemnon
Caldari is focused on range, its their thing, check it up sometime before you blurt out nonsense. And killing the thing they are good at kill the race. HAM (and Trops) is the only decent thing they got close range for the bigger vessles, and the T2 ammo made the close range weapons more versatile, and they need it. (All oter weapon system can change range by ammo, why not missiles?)
And HAMs/Torps are supposed to be short ranged weaponry by default, so what's your point? Either range or damage had to be cut, 30km is still quite a bit more than any other short-range fit ships without range bonus will have. With more DPS to boot.
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Baron Agamemnon
Caldari Holy Grail Constructiion
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Posted - 2008.11.01 17:34:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Kaileen Starsong
Originally by: Baron Agamemnon
Caldari is focused on range, its their thing, check it up sometime before you blurt out nonsense. And killing the thing they are good at kill the race. HAM (and Trops) is the only decent thing they got close range for the bigger vessles, and the T2 ammo made the close range weapons more versatile, and they need it. (All oter weapon system can change range by ammo, why not missiles?)
And HAMs/Torps are supposed to be short ranged weaponry by default, so what's your point? Either range or damage had to be cut, 30km is still quite a bit more than any other short-range fit ships without range bonus will have. With more DPS to boot.
Well, Javelin dps (current) is noting to be proud of, but now they are like most T2 ammo, not really usable in most situations. I'd rather use Faction ammo then get that 10km extra tbh.
Sure the dps of the new Javs are ok, but comapred to faction ammo at a tad closer range, not that good really.
I also think that other T2 ammo is bad, and T2 ammo in general need more boost to make it worth it.
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Kaileen Starsong
Amarr Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.01 17:43:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Baron Agamemnon
Well, Javelin dps (current) is noting to be proud of, but now they are like most T2 ammo, not really usable in most situations. I'd rather use Faction ammo then get that 10km extra tbh.
Their DPS at range is superior to anything else out of close-range guns though. Hence the nerf. I'm inclined to agree that by nerfing Javs the way CCP did, they made them pretty much redundant. I.e. 30km range is useful, but in most cases it either won't helped or won't really be needed. Seems to be as situational as with Hail ammo, for example(and that's bad tbh).
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Mag's
MASS
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Posted - 2008.11.01 17:49:00 -
[10]
Now lets just wait for the 'Faction ammo availability' nerf. Coming to an Eve near you soonÖ.
Mag's
Originally by: Avernus One of these days, the realization that MASS is no longer significant will catch up with you. |
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Baron Agamemnon
Caldari Holy Grail Constructiion
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Posted - 2008.11.01 17:55:00 -
[11]
Faction ammo will stay, but faction ammo is expencive, and that will not cahnge. T2 ammo is only about 2x times as expancive, and thats good. I do agree 80km was long, but killing Javs down to 30km is making the usless in most situation. Some cahnge was needed that is ok, but 100% more range would be better then a mesaly 50%.
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Karad Forsky
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.01 18:23:00 -
[12]
It's definitely an overnerf but a HAM-Drake shouldn't be able to (effectively) switch to a heavy missile one with a single ammo change. Perhaps 40-50k range would be better for Jav HAMs but current range on TQ is broken.
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Reptar Dragon
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2008.11.01 20:27:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Baron Agamemnon Faction ammo will stay, but faction ammo is expencive, and that will not cahnge. T2 ammo is only about 2x times as expancive, and thats good. I do agree 80km was long, but killing Javs down to 30km is making the usless in most situation. Some cahnge was needed that is ok, but 100% more range would be better then a mesaly 50%.
Useless in most situations... where you should be using Heavy Missiles instead of HAMs. If my Neutron Blaster Cannon IIs can reach 35km using Null L with max skills, I think it's balanced that your Javs can't hit 80km.
I think people need to stop expecting CCP to change the game for every little gripe, and just change your setups.
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Azuse
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.01 20:33:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Azuse on 01/11/2008 20:35:58 All the jav missiles loose 10% damage and gain 50% range over the close range (if you fly a golem you now cant get those 50km rats even with tii rigs) which is not necessarily a bad thing, but in the case of hams where your flying cruier/bc hulls ships close that extra 10km in the time it takes you to change ammo.
Just be glad you can still hit those annoying buggers who scram at 28km.
Edit: Oh and faction isn't nerfed, close range tii has been buffed, the cap penalties removed in favour of increased explosion radius and 10.58% damage increase over faction, in hams case 180m which means if you're shooting a bigger ship, ie bc, it's nasty. Also leave room for faction which is more effective on smaller hulls.
Now if only my turret ammo got an increased sig raduis instead of these tracking penalties -------------------------
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Lars Lodar
Suicidal Tendencies Ltd
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Posted - 2008.11.01 21:44:00 -
[15]
30km is ridiculous. Now if CCP had to nerf HAMs (which I don't think they need to do), 50-60km sounds like a fair compromised.
It's not like Caldari are overpowered in pvp. Hell, a good chunk of their ships are completely outclassed by other races but that's another issue. I think travel time and T2 penalties are sufficient balances which are already in place.
I pray that my only viable solo pvp ship (drake) wont be nerfed to hell.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.01 23:18:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Lars Lodar 30km is ridiculous. Now if CCP had to nerf HAMs (which I don't think they need to do), 50-60km sounds like a fair compromised.
Why? It's perfectly balanced with how turret ammo works.
Range on a 220mm AC II Hurricane is 2+15km - compare that with 2+10km of T1 ammo - you gain 5 kilometers of falloff (which sucks). Null M gains you 2-3km. Scorch M, the very best T2 long range ammo in game, pushes you to 24+5km.
A HAM Drake, which can, at point blank, slug it out with all of these ships, getting anything more then 30km range is definitely not *balance*. It's nice, but it quite definitely isn't balanced - balance is defined by your performance compared to the performance of your peers. Range wise, the HAM Drake on TQ performs so much better it's not funny.
Originally by: Lars Lodar
It's not like Caldari are overpowered in pvp.
It's not like they're lacking. Ships like the HAM Drake - well, the only way of actually beating them at any range is actually spending 700M+ on your pod and buying a slaveset, because no other BC without a slaveset is going to survive. Having HML range on demand on top of a obviously awesome ship is silly, particularly since its competition is not afforded such a tool.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.11.02 03:21:00 -
[17]
It would be awesome, IF ONLY Javelin HAMs would have more DPS than regular HMs. Now, if you want to do anything as drastic to HAMs like it was done to torps, at least give them the same ratio of damages compared to HMs like torps have to cruise.
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Spartan dax
eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.11.02 06:04:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Akita T It would be awesome, IF ONLY Javelin HAMs would have more DPS than regular HMs. Now, if you want to do anything as drastic to HAMs like it was done to torps, at least give them the same ratio of damages compared to HMs like torps have to cruise.
I hope not. Torps got a nice sig radius increase when CCP boosted the launchers ROF, I'd hate for that to happen to HAMs as well. Currently I can hit most webbed cruisers for full damage with HAMS but if they get boosted in a similar fashion as torps a targetpainter will be needed. I suppose targetpainter drones would make up for it. Sure, bring it on!
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Lili Lu
Victory Not Vengeance Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.11.02 06:08:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Lili Lu on 02/11/2008 06:08:34 Yay, poeple noticing this now. Hurts Khanid ships alot. Javelin Rockets and HAMs are now essentially useless. The Khanid ships have no out of tackle range option anymore, not even drones like the Diemost.
I get 77km on tranquility which i acknowledge is out of balance, but please consider that 50% on top of ass range is not worth using even without the harsh speed penalty.
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BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.11.02 06:24:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Jin Entres Awesome.
It's time Caldari got to know what short range really means.
correction: Amarr
Only one ship of cladari can use hams effectively, that being a drake. Woah mega-loss EVE history
Missiles post-nerf |
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.11.02 07:22:00 -
[21]
Originally by: BiggestT
Originally by: Jin Entres Awesome.
It's time Caldari got to know what short range really means.
correction: Amarr
Only one ship of cladari can use hams effectively, that being a drake. Woah mega-loss
lol yeah... 35km Med Pulse with uber tracking is still ****ing me off.
But Christina you know that HAMs shouldn't go further than their Heavy Missile counterparts... load up Javelin Heavies and they don't even go all that far making HAMs the obvious choice until they're nerfed ------------
Originally by: Nexus Kinnon I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>
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Delichon
The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2008.11.02 08:27:00 -
[22]
Originally by: BiggestT
Only one ship of cladari can use hams effectively, that being a drake. Woah mega-loss
Now Cerb will lob Faction HAMs at a larger distance than Drake would lob Jav. HAMs.
Then we'll see which ships can be considered effective HAM users and which can not ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next.
EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun |
Murtific
Caldari Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.11.02 11:18:00 -
[23]
crap... Going to miss my Ham jav cerb... 153km range on my javs =[ back to heavies I go....
ccp fail
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Naqam Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.11.02 12:03:00 -
[24]
Originally by: techzer0
But Christina you know that HAMs shouldn't go further than their Heavy Missile counterparts... load up Javelin Heavies and they don't even go all that far making HAMs the obvious choice until they're nerfed
Only if you're going to be using Faction HAMs a lot also. Jav HAMs are worse than Faction Heavies in every way right now.
And I don't think anything is wrong with the range right now - Amarr get Scorch Zealots that can hit out very far with amazing tracking (and notably more DPS than Javelin HAMs have) but that didn't get nerfed.
- Infectious - |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.02 12:13:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
And I don't think anything is wrong with the range right now - Amarr get Scorch Zealots that can hit out very far with amazing tracking (and notably more DPS than Javelin HAMs have) but that didn't get nerfed.
(a) They did actually get nerfed (locus rig stacks with range modules on SISI now). (b) Zealot is range bonused. So is the Cerb. Compare the ranges on the two, not compare Drake v Zealot (the accurate comparison is Drake v Harbringer where the Drake still outranges the Harbringer).
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2008.11.02 12:42:00 -
[26]
Originally by: techzer0
Originally by: BiggestT
Originally by: Jin Entres Awesome.
It's time Caldari got to know what short range really means.
correction: Amarr
Only one ship of cladari can use hams effectively, that being a drake. Woah mega-loss
lol yeah... 35km Med Pulse with uber tracking is still ****ing me off.
But Christina you know that HAMs shouldn't go further than their Heavy Missile counterparts... load up Javelin Heavies and they don't even go all that far making HAMs the obvious choice until they're nerfed
Just as the Drake is apparently the only ship that regularly uses hams, the zealot is the only ship that gets 35km optimal with scorch on a regular basis. (Also, it's actually 33.75 km with sharpshooter and HAC V) __________________________________
Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
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Elhina Novae
Sky's Edge
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Posted - 2008.11.02 12:55:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Lili Lu Edited by: Lili Lu on 02/11/2008 06:08:34 Yay, poeple noticing this now. Hurts Khanid ships alot. Javelin Rockets and HAMs are now essentially useless. The Khanid ships have no out of tackle range option anymore, not even drones like the Diemost.
I get 77km on tranquility which i acknowledge is out of balance, but please consider that 50% on top of ass range is not worth using even without the harsh speed penalty.
This is true, but the Javelin missiles was kinda ridicolous tbh...
20km range with T1/Faction HAM ammo and then suddenly with a reload 80km+ is kind of inbalanced. ------------
Originally by: Boz Well
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey ... There's an Amarr problem?
Nothing that can't be solved by more Minmatar nerfs.
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Mara Kell
Steel Beasts
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Posted - 2008.11.02 13:22:00 -
[28]
Ahhh thats nice.
CCP nerfing HAM drakes and killing the Sacrilege all by the way. If this change gets life my Sacri will switch to HMLs at once and for all.
The brawler/armor tank sacrilege lives with the ability to be able to kill those uber tacklers (Arazu Rapier) and if that ability is taking away it becomes a useless heavy armor coffin.
Right now Cerberus and Sacrilege both have a role they shine. One HML, one HAM, after the Sisi changes the Cerb is far better in both roles...
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Joss Sparq
Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.02 13:27:00 -
[29]
For everyone shouting "Nerf Caldari!" I would note this will also have an impact on the Khanid ships (Sacrilege, Damnation) and anyone who pilots them too - so not necessarily just Caldari-centric pilots.
(Though I am Caldari, I don't use Javelin HAMs or the Sacrilege/Damnation personally)
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Baron Agamemnon
Caldari Holy Grail Constructiion
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Posted - 2008.11.02 19:15:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Reptar Dragon
Originally by: Baron Agamemnon Faction ammo will stay, but faction ammo is expencive, and that will not cahnge. T2 ammo is only about 2x times as expancive, and thats good. I do agree 80km was long, but killing Javs down to 30km is making the usless in most situation. Some cahnge was needed that is ok, but 100% more range would be better then a mesaly 50%.
Useless in most situations... where you should be using Heavy Missiles instead of HAMs. If my Neutron Blaster Cannon IIs can reach 35km using Null L with max skills, I think it's balanced that your Javs can't hit 80km.
I think people need to stop expecting CCP to change the game for every little gripe, and just change your setups.
Did you read what I said at all??? (I suggest you do)
I said 80km was a bit too long, but the 50% it has now is too samll.
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