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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.07 15:30:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Mara Kell
Originally by: arbiter reformed this is probbly because of amarr missile ships. the bonuses a sac gets for hams make jav hams better than heavy missiles
re:Amarr Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Heavy Assault Missile damage and 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level
Why do you hate Khanid ships?
Read ship bonuses again and you will notice that all caldari ship bonuses work for HAMs too. HAM drake, HAM Cerb anyone? And i can assure you that after QR the Cerberus will be the prefered HAM platform which says alot about the Sac in QR. I have 4m SP in missiles only for the Sacrilege and guess what whats next on my skillplan, Caldari cruiser 5 to kind of get my sacrilege back...
You'll be dissapointed then, the Cerberus is nothing like the Sacriledge and is best with HMLs.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Aestetica
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.07 17:11:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Aestetica on 07/11/2008 17:14:36 I've noticed that some people in this thread discuss the drake in theoretial situations when they call it the best or over powered.
Its correct u can get great EHP and shield regen numbers with good damage. But a drake lacks so much else.
Fitting a drake for damage, tank, with web, scram, mwd, ECCM is impossible. Sure, its the same for some other ships as not all have the med slot luxury of the myrm.
The drake is fine as it is, and not over "pewered".
Aes
Edit: I can fly the Drake, but havent since i skilled into gallente. Perhaps i should start again after the QR patch...
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Kaileen Starsong
Amarr Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.07 17:25:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Aestetica
Its correct u can get great EHP and shield regen numbers with good damage. But a drake lacks so much else. ... Fitting a drake for damage, tank, with web, scram, mwd, ECCM is impossible.
You can have it all in one if you drop ECCM.. so how it "lacks so much else" exactly?
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Aestetica
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.07 17:51:00 -
[94]
Fair enough. Perhaps not "so much else". Had a look at hte All lvl V numbers. But i think we both agree ECCM is not to be underestimated (and perhaps even more so post QR).
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Elhina Novae
Sky's Edge
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Posted - 2008.11.07 18:53:00 -
[95]
Had plans for a rocket/javelin Vengeance post-patch. Oh well ^_^ ------------
Originally by: Boz Well
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey ... There's an Amarr problem?
Nothing that can't be solved by more Minmatar nerfs.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.07 19:21:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Aestetica Fair enough. Perhaps not "so much else". Had a look at hte All lvl V numbers. But i think we both agree ECCM is not to be underestimated (and perhaps even more so post QR).
The only ship which can fit a ECCM in a proper combat fit is the Myrm post patch, and even that means foregoing dual rep tank.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Leeluvv
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.11.07 22:28:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Mara Kell
Originally by: arbiter reformed this is probbly because of amarr missile ships. the bonuses a sac gets for hams make jav hams better than heavy missiles
re:Amarr Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Heavy Assault Missile damage and 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level
Why do you hate Khanid ships?
Read ship bonuses again and you will notice that all caldari ship bonuses work for HAMs too. HAM drake, HAM Cerb anyone? And i can assure you that after QR the Cerberus will be the prefered HAM platform which says alot about the Sac in QR. I have 4m SP in missiles only for the Sacrilege and guess what whats next on my skillplan, Caldari cruiser 5 to kind of get my sacrilege back...
I hope you aren't expecting the same Power Grid on a Cerb that there is on a SAC, as you will be very dissappointed and will need 2 PG rigs for a decent HAM fit, which means you get a lousy tank.
Strange fact of the year: A SAC makes a better 'shield tanking' HAM HAC than the Cerb.... Got to EFT, play, then cry. (and, yes, it's down to the rigs and is a silly idea, but it proves a point. SAC can fit shield extenders when the Cerb needs PG rigs...)
Lee == Sig to follow |
Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.11.08 10:32:00 -
[98]
There was a way to fit a Drake so it was useful in PvP. This, of course, needed to change.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.08 12:24:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Wet Ferret There was a way to fit a Drake so it was useful in PvP. This, of course, needed to change.
Still useful. Tbh, I don't know which BC could whitstand a Drake in webrange post patch, particularly with its damage vs webbed BCs being buffed up by a straight 10%.
Maybe HG slaved Hurricane/Harbringer/Myrmidon...
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Joss Sparq
Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.08 13:56:00 -
[100]
Hot off the press: "Rocket, assault missile and torpedo javelin missiles will now do -10% less damage but range has been increased by 50%." - I assume by "assault missile" they mean HAMs, since they also mention both the Rocket & Torpedo too.
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Sidus Isaacs
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Posted - 2008.11.08 14:06:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Joss Sparq Hot off the press: "Rocket, assault missile and torpedo javelin missiles will now do -10% less damage but range has been increased by 50%." - I assume by "assault missile" they mean HAMs, since they also mention both the Rocket & Torpedo too.
Correct. That info is the info being debated in theis thread ;).
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Joss Sparq
Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.08 14:21:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Joss Sparq on 08/11/2008 14:21:50
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Correct. That info is the info being debated in theis thread ;).
Yeah, I noticed that too, once I cut past the EFT warriors and combat numerology going on in here. My point being we're not in Kansas (or Sisi) anymore, Toto
* and that the patch notes about it are now up and confirm it, where-as I'm certain they were not so earlier today.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.08 14:36:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Joss Sparq Edited by: Joss Sparq on 08/11/2008 14:21:50
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Correct. That info is the info being debated in theis thread ;).
Yeah, I noticed that too, once I cut past the EFT warriors and combat numerology going on in here. My point being we're not in Kansas (or Sisi) anymore, Toto
* and that the patch notes about it are now up and confirm it, where-as I'm certain they were not so earlier today.
We all knew the stuff on SISI is going to hit TQ. And, yes, while before they had 200-300% range now they have 50% more.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Mankirks Wife
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Posted - 2008.11.08 14:46:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Cpt Branko We all knew the stuff on SISI is going to hit TQ. And, yes, while before they had 200-300% range now they have 50% more.
So javelin rockets will only go out 15 kms? Well that's just poo - what's the friggin' point then? With the speed penalty and the fact they do a lot less damage than faction the only reason to even think of fitting them is for sniping or shooting at interceptors, neither of which they'll have the range for now. ---
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Joss Sparq
Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.08 15:42:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Cpt Branko We all knew the stuff on SISI is going to hit TQ. And, yes, while before they had 200-300% range now they have 50% more.
And, yes, so I posted the link to the patch notes to show people who might be skipping ahead a page or two that this is what was buried within the (now skipped) pages of disgruntled calculations. Sorry.
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KYRAK
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Posted - 2008.11.08 22:48:00 -
[106]
Edited by: KYRAK on 08/11/2008 22:57:10 Edited by: KYRAK on 08/11/2008 22:56:45
Originally by: Dr Sheepbringer So with no tracking issues, high damage and high range...you start whining when they remove ONE element. Boohoo. Try blasters for fun.
Seems like the old brass nuckles will come handy after the nerf
-missiles take some time to travel to there target where as guns hit or miss with no delay -when it is said the max range is 30km that is only for when both targets are sitting still and likely dose not factor in the time it takes for the missile to reach full speed -guns have a chance to hit targets at any range, slim but it exists -guns also fire at a faster rate 3 or 4 shots in the time t takes to launch 2 missiles -caldari ships rely on there mid slots for there tank and can't afford to waste them on webs, MWD's or afterburners and most caldari ships don't have enough cap to use any of them with or without an active tank
you obviously don't under stand the math behind missiles vs. guns
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.08 23:09:00 -
[107]
Originally by: KYRAK
-missiles take some time to travel to there target where as guns hit or miss with no delay
Not relevant at close range at all.
Originally by: KYRAK
-when it is said the max range is 30km that is only for when both targets are sitting still and likely dose not factor in the time it takes for the missile to reach full speed
On the other hand, if a target is closing on you, your missile effectively has more then 30km range. It's a different weapon system, and yes, for all practical effects and purposes it has 29-30km range.
Originally by: KYRAK
-guns have a chance to hit targets at any range, slim but it exists
No, they don't. They can hit up to optimal+2xfalloff. At optimal+falloff they have 50% hit chance and do ~38% EFT DPS.
If you'll say that wrecking shots can happen at any range, then you obviously did not read patch notes (even though they're written wrong and say optimal+falloff).
Originally by: KYRAK
-guns also fire at a faster rate 3 or 4 shots in the time t takes to launch 2 missiles
LOL, this is not relevant at all, DPS is what counts.
Originally by: KYRAK
-caldari ships rely on there mid slots for there tank and can't afford to waste them on webs, MWD's or afterburners and most caldari ships don't have enough cap to use any of them with or without an active tank
LOL!
You obviously have never heard of a, eg. Drake which can MWD, web and scram and still has a tank equivalent of a LG slaved plated BC (which means, 750M of implants).
In fact, I suspect you have not heard of buffer tanks at all.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.08 23:10:00 -
[108]
Originally by: KYRAK
-missiles take some time to travel to there target where as guns hit or miss with no delay
Not relevant at close range at all.
Originally by: KYRAK
-when it is said the max range is 30km that is only for when both targets are sitting still and likely dose not factor in the time it takes for the missile to reach full speed
On the other hand, if a target is closing on you, your missile effectively has more then 30km range. It's a different weapon system, and yes, for all practical effects and purposes it has 29-30km range.
Originally by: KYRAK
-guns have a chance to hit targets at any range, slim but it exists
No, they don't. They can hit up to optimal+2xfalloff. At optimal+falloff they have 50% hit chance and do ~38% EFT DPS.
If you'll say that wrecking shots can happen at any range, then you obviously did not read patch notes (even though they're written wrong and say optimal+falloff).
Originally by: KYRAK
-guns also fire at a faster rate 3 or 4 shots in the time t takes to launch 2 missiles
LOL, this is not relevant at all, DPS is what counts.
Originally by: KYRAK
-caldari ships rely on there mid slots for there tank and can't afford to waste them on webs, MWD's or afterburners and most caldari ships don't have enough cap to use any of them with or without an active tank
LOL!
You obviously have never heard of a, eg. Drake which can MWD, web and scram and still has a tank equivalent of a LG slaved plated BC (which means, 750M of implants).
In fact, I suspect you have not heard of buffer tanks at all. Which leads me to believe you are talking from a mission running standpoint or something. In which case, your opinion is not relevant to the discussion.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Aestetica
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.09 23:54:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Aestetica on 09/11/2008 23:55:01 I think the optimal + 2 x falloff stuff has been changed:
Found under weapons and ammunition:
"Turrets will only do damage when within the maximum allowed optimal and falloff range."
Or have i misunderstood something?
Edit: Spelling
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Azuse
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.10 00:03:00 -
[110]
Edited by: Azuse on 10/11/2008 00:03:37 It means you're reading poor English attempting to inform you that you can no longer receive wrecking shots at max falloff. -------------------------
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Aestetica
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.10 00:05:00 -
[111]
Yeah i realized i skimmed through Brankos post too fast.
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To mare
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Posted - 2008.11.10 00:15:00 -
[112]
but they are capless
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Bull dyke
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Posted - 2008.11.10 01:27:00 -
[113]
to those who say short ranged missiles are now "balanced" to the equivalent shortranged setuops of other races - i believe that there is more to look at here than just the ammo rang/specs
caldari ships themselves are not designed the same way as the vast majority of other ships in eve we have a sheild tank that requires us to use most of the utility slots you others enjoy on some semblance of a tank. or we can choose to have the same utility and sacrifice much or all of our tanking abilities. armor tankers are generally stronger and are more fit for the close range work.
whats the point of a ship that will disolve in close range pvp because his sheild is severely reduced by the MWD he fit and his tank is non existant because he has to fit a scram and web for close work? our ships themselves are dsigned for ranged engagments.
sure there are a few ships that have tanking bonuses in the form of resistance per level that might help survivability in close situations against the "equivalent other short ranges systems" but there are no wrecking shots and im trying to think of a hull that could really stand toe to toe (using missiles) with the vast majority of blaster setups in the BS range.
balancing missiles is not just about the ammo
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Polly Prissypantz
Dingleberry Appreciation Society
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Posted - 2008.11.10 02:22:00 -
[114]
Javelins HAMs are useful, therefore they're getting nerfed. No T2 ammo is allowed to be useful. I'm still waiting for Spike, Barrage and Scorch to get the nerfstick. OK Spike and Barrage at least. Since Scorch is Amarr it'll probably get boosted instead.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.11.10 08:28:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Kaileen Starsong
Originally by: Aestetica
Its correct u can get great EHP and shield regen numbers with good damage. But a drake lacks so much else. ... Fitting a drake for damage, tank, with web, scram, mwd, ECCM is impossible.
You can have it all in one if you drop ECCM.. so how it "lacks so much else" exactly?
I think you sort of miss the point. A drake with ECCM, MWD, Web, point and damage is missing a tank. A drake with any three of the above gains some quantity of tank. The drake with the pvp Trinity actually has lower DPS output and lower EHP or lower dps output than it's tier 2 BC cousins. The strength of the standard HAM drake was it's overall utility, not it's sheer combat potential. In most fights it was easy for a HAM drake to find a comfortable niche to fill effectively.
That being said, the javelin nerf is justified in this case. Without it there was no significant reason to actually use Heavy Missiles (except when you're like me and have heavy missile SPEC IV and HAM IV 'cause you started hating missiles right around 6 million SP invested).
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Mara Kell
Steel Beasts Sev3rance
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Posted - 2008.11.10 09:20:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
That being said, the javelin nerf is justified in this case. Without it there was no significant reason to actually use Heavy Missiles (except when you're like me and have heavy missile SPEC IV and HAM IV 'cause you started hating missiles right around 6 million SP invested).
If that was the problem, why didnt CCP just changed lets say the damage bonus of all caldari ships to standard missiles instead of all missiles? I mean if they want Caldari long range and Khanid short range, why first force Khanid to short range and then nerf short range so Caldaris dont use it?...
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