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TZeer
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.02 20:47:00 -
[1]
Edited by: TZeer on 02/11/2008 21:04:29
The explo velocity nerf on SISI is to hard.
Hardly need any speed now to start reducing damage.
Even a mega going 350m/s gets 40% of the damage taken away from cruisemissiles...
A cruiser going at 500m/s with no speedmods except an AB, and a armortank can tank a fully specced raven with precissions with no problem.
At the same time a mega will absolutely destroy the same cruiser if it wanders to far away. In the tests the mega was able to land excellent hits, doing 690 Damage hits, and that was on 50%+ on lowest resist.
Please show me any missile that are capable of dealing 690 Damage on a moving cruiser...
Hey, show me any missile that are able to deal 690 damage on a cruiser standing still.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.11.02 21:04:00 -
[2]
Edited by: lebrata on 02/11/2008 21:04:08
Excellent hits for 690 not perfect bud a perfect hit would hit harder unless they have changed things.
How would this effect smaller ships like frigates and would increasing the sig radius of certain ship classes instead be a better option instead of changing missiles?.
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TZeer
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.02 21:07:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: lebrata
Edited by: lebrata on 02/11/2008 21:04:08
Excellent hits for 690 not perfect bud a perfect hit would hit harder unless they have changed things.
How would this effect smaller ships like frigates and would increasing the sig radius of certain ship classes instead be a better option instead of changing missiles?.
Fixed.
Dont think increasing the sig radius would do much.
Just take the example with the mega. That one had 400m sig radius and only did 350m/s, but where still reducing the damage with 40%.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.11.02 21:10:00 -
[4]
Edited by: lebrata on 02/11/2008 21:10:46
Originally by: TZeer
Originally by: lebrata
Excellent hits for 690 not perfect bud a perfect hit would hit harder unless they have changed things.
How would this effect smaller ships like frigates and would increasing the sig radius of certain ship classes instead be a better option instead of changing missiles?.
Fixed.
Dont think increasing the sig radius would do much.
Just take the example with the mega. That one had 400m sig radius and only did 350m/s, but where still reducing the damage with 40%.
True but when we did the mwd test you hit for max even at top speed, so maybe sig changes by ship class could help without messing things up (even more than they are).
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TZeer
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.02 21:22:00 -
[5]
Originally by: lebrata
Edited by: lebrata on 02/11/2008 21:10:46
Originally by: TZeer
Originally by: lebrata
Excellent hits for 690 not perfect bud a perfect hit would hit harder unless they have changed things.
How would this effect smaller ships like frigates and would increasing the sig radius of certain ship classes instead be a better option instead of changing missiles?.
Fixed.
Dont think increasing the sig radius would do much.
Just take the example with the mega. That one had 400m sig radius and only did 350m/s, but where still reducing the damage with 40%.
True but when we did the mwd test you hit for max even at top speed, so maybe sig changes by ship class could help without messing things up (even more than they are).
If the intention is to reduce some damage with mwd, they need to take a look at the actual mwd and it`s sig penalty, or the actual formula.
And then scale it so it comes in somewhere worse then an AB.
And even if they increased the sig radius on the cruisers, or reduced explosion radius on missiles, the speed penalty would still affect the final result.
Even with a BS sized sig radius the missile would do 50% wich could be ok. But then again you would need to change the BS sig, and all this would affect other mechanics in game.
Scanning
Tracking on guns
Lockingtime
etc.
So it`s much easier to look at the actual problem wich is: Speed reduces the damage far to effective atm.
Wich is affected by: Explosion Velocity VS Speed
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Iog Krugar
The Rising Stars
Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2008.11.03 02:04:00 -
[6]
how big is the impact of Warhead Flare Catalyst rigs in your scenario?
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i suposse everyone rolls around stations in pods |
Reptar Dragon
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2008.11.03 04:42:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Reptar Dragon on 03/11/2008 04:43:21
Originally by: Iog Krugar
how big is the impact of Warhead Flare Catalyst rigs in your scenario?
The worst part about what you just asked:
You shouldn't need a Warfare Flare Catalyst rig to hit a MEGATHRON MOVING AT 350M/S.
For ****s sake CCP when you nerf something, for once can you not completely destroy it and just nerf it to where it should be? You can't even hit a battleship moving at full base speed with full damage anymore. We totally understand you noticed that missiles ****d everything that moved with the speed nerf, but 75m/s?!?!?!?!?1??!
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iudex
Caldari
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.11.03 09:27:00 -
[8]
I don't think this will be the final stats.
Cruise missiles have a lower dps than some of the battlecruisers, and the high range is only nice in theory, up to 30 seconds from launch to impact renders the range useless.
There are not even modules to increase the explosion velocity, such as tracking mods for med- and lowslots for turrets.
So if your stats are true, cruise missiles would become completely rubbish, i don't think the devs will make such a stupid move.
_________________________________________
Faction Standings: Serpentis +7.60 // Angel Cartel +7.31 // Minmatar Republic -8.56 // Gallente Federation -9.71
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Corin Nebulon
Naqam
Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.11.03 12:11:00 -
[9]
At least the rocket expl. velocity seems to be wrong. Atm its higher than that of heavy assault missiles...
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.11.03 12:15:00 -
[10]
I still think the whole system needs adjusting cos if you increase explosion velocity your making cruise spewing ravens the pwn all missile ship no matter the range, size or speed of the target.
Its complicated but a full adjustment of sig size, locking speed and a bunch of other stuff maybe the only way to make this work.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.03 12:55:00 -
[11]
Originally by: TZeer
Edited by: TZeer on 02/11/2008 21:04:29
The explo velocity nerf on SISI is to hard.
Hardly need any speed now to start reducing damage.
Even a mega going 350m/s gets 40% of the damage taken away from cruisemissiles...
A cruiser going at 500m/s with no speedmods except an AB, and a armortank can tank a fully specced raven with precissions with no problem.
At the same time a mega will absolutely destroy the same cruiser if it wanders to far away. In the tests the mega was able to land excellent hits, doing 690 Damage hits, and that was on 50%+ on lowest resist.
Please show me any missile that are capable of dealing 690 Damage on a moving cruiser...
Hey, show me any missile that are able to deal 690 damage on a cruiser standing still.
40% armor resist ? you suck.
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0810/lie.jpg
guide ninja edited already
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CrestoftheStars
Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2008.11.03 13:00:00 -
[12]
Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 03/11/2008 13:01:59
Originally by: lebrata
Edited by: lebrata on 02/11/2008 21:10:46
Originally by: TZeer
Originally by: lebrata
Excellent hits for 690 not perfect bud a perfect hit would hit harder unless they have changed things.
How would this effect smaller ships like frigates and would increasing the sig radius of certain ship classes instead be a better option instead of changing missiles?.
Fixed.
Dont think increasing the sig radius would do much.
Just take the example with the mega. That one had 400m sig radius and only did 350m/s, but where still reducing the damage with 40%.
True but when we did the mwd test you hit for max even at top speed, so maybe sig changes by ship class could help without messing things up (even more than they are).
bs's should always be hit at max dmg from a cruise missile.
that's why a missile can't crit or miss, but have a stady dps constantly and have a hell of a lot lower dps then turrets (not taking torps into account, which is already being effected quite heavily when a target gets a bit a speed.)
hmm haven't tested the missiles on the test server, but in generally they have nerfed them that much that i will just stay at turrets seems so much more effective.
instant hit, higher dps, higher burst (since crit) etc. not really any reason to have missiles now when they are useless to anything with a ab (not even really speed fitted :/ )
edit:
or add modules to increase expl vel and sig of missiles on the ship.
would do the trick too.
since turrets have both optimal range, tracking, dmg, and rof mods, while missiles only have dmg and rof mods :/
___________________________________________
Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
TZeer
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.03 13:12:00 -
[13]
Edited by: TZeer on 03/11/2008 13:12:28
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl
Originally by: TZeer
Edited by: TZeer on 02/11/2008 21:04:29
The explo velocity nerf on SISI is to hard.
Hardly need any speed now to start reducing damage.
Even a mega going 350m/s gets 40% of the damage taken away from cruisemissiles...
A cruiser going at 500m/s with no speedmods except an AB, and a armortank can tank a fully specced raven with precissions with no problem.
At the same time a mega will absolutely destroy the same cruiser if it wanders to far away. In the tests the mega was able to land excellent hits, doing 690 Damage hits, and that was on 50%+ on lowest resist.
Please show me any missile that are capable of dealing 690 Damage on a moving cruiser...
Hey, show me any missile that are able to deal 690 damage on a cruiser standing still.
40% armor resist ? you suck.
Think you misunderstood me here.
First we shot at the mega with EM missile on sheild, 0% resist so it dealt max damage, 537 HP
Then we did the same when the mega was doing 350m/s with an AB, damage was 320 HP.
That means you reduce damage by 40% just from speed, then you can add resists in amror or wherever you have your tank on top of that...
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dojocan81
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Posted - 2008.11.03 13:37:00 -
[14]
Originally by: CrestoftheStars
or add modules to increase expl vel and sig of missiles on the ship.
would do the trick too.
since turrets have both optimal range, tracking, dmg, and rof mods, while missiles only have dmg and rof mods :/
i've done this 2 days before but didnt get any rsponse from dev side if (s)he readed it
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=899873&page=22#635
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.03 14:16:00 -
[15]
Originally by: TZeer
First we shot at the mega with EM missile on sheild, 0% resist so it dealt max damage, 537 HP
Then we did the same when the mega was doing 350m/s with an AB, damage was 320 HP.
That means you reduce damage by 40% just from speed, then you can add resists in amror or wherever you have your tank on top of that...
I'd not be surprised if this were true for the new rage torps. But for cruise missiles .. i'm speechless.
Wonder what botcher is responsible fot that change, i'd not be surprised if he's paid by Blizzard for eliminating MMO competitors, like the guys that brought the NGE to SWG.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.03 14:48:00 -
[16]
350 transversal tor turets are way mroe misses than that 40% reduction.
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0810/lie.jpg
guide ninja edited already
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.03 14:59:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl
350 transversal tor turets are way mroe misses than that 40% reduction.
No.
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Digital Mistress
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Posted - 2008.11.03 15:10:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl
350 transversal tor turets are way mroe misses than that 40% reduction.
No.
I think what he may be saying is the following... it would be interesting to know the difference between a Raven shooting cruise missiles at a battleship sized target moving at 350m/s... versus... a Megathron shooting Railguns at a battleship sized target moving at 350m/s...
If I'm not mistaken, Cruise Missiles are designed to be the long range weapon type in the same category as Beam Lasers, Railguns, and Howitzers. Mission running aside, these may be the best weapon types to compare capabilities to...
Side note - when comparing missile damage to turret damage in a comparison like I described above, make sure you note the Damage Per Second and not max damage per hit. Turrets start missing when the firing ship or target start moving, and the only "fair" comparison is the averaged DPS values...
My bet is you will find that missiles, while having the damage reduction, provide more consistent DPS over the course of the fight - assuming you are willing to work with the negatives of using missiles in a combat situation (delayed damage and flight time).
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.03 16:10:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Digital Mistress
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl
350 transversal tor turets are way mroe misses than that 40% reduction.
No.
I think what he may be saying is the following... it would be interesting to know the difference between a Raven shooting cruise missiles at a battleship sized target moving at 350m/s... versus... a Megathron shooting Railguns at a battleship sized target moving at 350m/s...
If I'm not mistaken, Cruise Missiles are designed to be the long range weapon type in the same category as Beam Lasers, Railguns, and Howitzers. Mission running aside, these may be the best weapon types to compare capabilities to...
Side note - when comparing missile damage to turret damage in a comparison like I described above, make sure you note the Damage Per Second and not max damage per hit. Turrets start missing when the firing ship or target start moving, and the only "fair" comparison is the averaged DPS values...
My bet is you will find that missiles, while having the damage reduction, provide more consistent DPS over the course of the fight - assuming you are willing to work with the negatives of using missiles in a combat situation (delayed damage and flight time).
Then test it at say 200 kilometer range :) Snipers are not made for close range fighting right..
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.11.03 16:21:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Hyveres
Originally by: Digital Mistress
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl
350 transversal tor turets are way mroe misses than that 40% reduction.
No.
I think what he may be saying is the following... it would be interesting to know the difference between a Raven shooting cruise missiles at a battleship sized target moving at 350m/s... versus... a Megathron shooting Railguns at a battleship sized target moving at 350m/s...
If I'm not mistaken, Cruise Missiles are designed to be the long range weapon type in the same category as Beam Lasers, Railguns, and Howitzers. Mission running aside, these may be the best weapon types to compare capabilities to...
Side note - when comparing missile damage to turret damage in a comparison like I described above, make sure you note the Damage Per Second and not max damage per hit. Turrets start missing when the firing ship or target start moving, and the only "fair" comparison is the averaged DPS values...
My bet is you will find that missiles, while having the damage reduction, provide more consistent DPS over the course of the fight - assuming you are willing to work with the negatives of using missiles in a combat situation (delayed damage and flight time).
Then test it at say 200 kilometer range :) Snipers are not made for close range fighting right..
Why not test it at tackle range as that is where the danger is as you can always warp off if your enemy is at 200km.......
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.03 16:33:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Hyveres on 03/11/2008 16:34:03
Originally by: lebrata
Why not test it at tackle range as that is where the danger is as you can always warp off if your enemy is at 200km.......
Beacuse if we are looking at tackle range for a sniper turret BS , he should have warped long before the enemy got there.
If you go in for tackle range with a battleship we are talking blasterboat or pulseboat , or maybe AC boat.
Cruise is the missileversion of tachs/rails , for short range work the valid comparision is Torps and torps gets screwed over even worse by speed.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.11.03 16:36:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Hyveres
Then test it at say 200 kilometer range :) Snipers are not made for close range fighting right..
So... since when sniper battleships move 350m/s? Always thought they move around 70-80 (3/4 of max speed, enough to instawarp)
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.11.03 16:44:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Hyveres
Originally by: lebrata
Why not test it at tackle range as that is where the danger is as you can always warp off if your enemy is at 200km.......
Beacuse if we are looking at tackle range for a sniper turret BS , he should have warped long before the enemy got there.
If you go in for tackle range with a battleship we are talking blasterboat or pulseboat , or maybe AC boat.
Cruise is the missileversion of tachs/rails , for short range work the valid comparision is Torps and torps gets screwed over even worse by speed.
And ofcourse we are talking target moving at 350 m/s , its to compare the effect of AB on missile dps , vs AB on turret DPS at range.
So cos we are talking about 200km for both missiles and guns we can say that they are both useless at and speed cos the targets are untackled and can warp off at will and could also do that if any ship approaches to tackle them.
PS: At 200km the hits from a mega are a joke as well cos it uses either iron or spike to reach that far and even with perfect skills and 3 t2 mag stabs the normal hits are around 50 dmg.
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Doctor Mahbuse
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Posted - 2008.11.03 17:17:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Hyveres
Then test it at say 200 kilometer range :) Snipers are not made for close range fighting right..
So... since when sniper battleships move 350m/s? Always thought they move around 70-80 (3/4 of max speed, enough to instawarp)
The target moves 350m/s, not the sniper, mkay ?
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.03 17:59:00 -
[25]
if i rember bc orbiting bs at 200m/s orbit 500m 95% were misses. So you get much more damage with misiles anyway.
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0810/lie.jpg
guide ninja edited already
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.11.03 18:49:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Doctor Mahbuse
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Hyveres
Then test it at say 200 kilometer range :) Snipers are not made for close range fighting right..
So... since when sniper battleships move 350m/s? Always thought they move around 70-80 (3/4 of max speed, enough to instawarp)
The target moves 350m/s, not the sniper, mkay ?
So what is your target then? I assume its battleship because cruises are anti-BS weapon.
If its at "snipe" range then its probably sniper - thus will move slowly. So both rail and cruise do similiar damage (actually cruise deals more but has impact delay).
If its at close range (lets say he even uses AB to remove damage, tho it would screw his tracking too) you deal less damage due to his speed, and rail ship deals less damage due to reduced tracking.
So where EXACTLY is the problem?
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.03 20:28:00 -
[27]
problem is "I used to pown small ships in my raven."
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0810/lie.jpg
guide ninja edited already
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GateScout
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Posted - 2008.11.03 23:08:00 -
[28]
If you want to discuss turrets, use 'radial velocity' (or include both range and relative speed of the targets).
A target moving tangentially past a turret ship at 300m/s at 1km is vastly different than a target moving at 300m/s at 100km.
However, this is not the case for a missile spewing ship. The speed (not velocity - speed and direction) is only relevant to missile dps.
Details, people...details. 
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Shera Gron
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Posted - 2008.11.04 01:07:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Shera Gron on 04/11/2008 01:24:45
Edited by: Shera Gron on 04/11/2008 01:20:12
Some people still havent realized the intention of these new changes.
Fighting misile ships does only work inbeteen your opponents shipclass when it comes to resistance tanking.
A small gang made of 5 cruiser sized vessels engaging a BS wont work w/o ecm.
The misiles do wicked untankable damage to your gang. And while defenders suck in most cases, especially in close range, the only way of having a chance is a falcon or something similar.
BS vs BS, BC vs BC, Cruiser vs Cruiser, frigate vs frigate. Thats it.
Oversized weapons like heavy turrets on BS can be counteres by tracking/optimal range disrupion. In most cases, they will still hit your smaller vessel if youre webbed by a single ship and his heavy drones melt your eyes like ice in the sun.
There are lots of people, including me, who like to fly small frig sized ships and love to own bigger ones in their fragile, crappy boats. THIS makes PvP interesting. With the current mechanics, you'll never try to engage a BS in a Cruiser/frig, even if you have 10 frigs in your gang. Suicide is an option. but im talking about survivability. And there is none. smaller ships will die a fast death. Theres NO WAY to counter missiles on TQ! Tank it or run.
So, how to counter webs and missiles?
Exactly, nano it.. and become "invincible" (aslong you wont get webbed/neuted).
Your missiles do no damage and you start whining. Nanos being nerfed and your missiles do less damage to your opponent. aaaand you start to whine agaaain. how pathetic..
on SiSi
your small ship gang does have a realistic chance to beat big ships. You can signature tank missiles and outrun oversized turrets tracking, even if webbed.
Webs, neuts, TP and smaller drones are still viable counters. dont even think aout it to hunt a frig with your ogre II or i'll plait your hair and yank 'em out!
Some people do still live in their small world made of "i do solo PvP and my BS has to pwn every smaller ship and misiles have to hit with a devastating damage" .
This is where all these lame BS PvP vids come from.
Allright, some folks have realized that signature is the key. So why dont you use TP? "another med slot for a TP??!!!!1 I need my slots for a web and scrambler!! zomg!!"
flying in small gangs up to 3 ppl aint even worth talking about, because "I R solo PvPr". SO DIE AND STOP ****ING COMPLAINING!
Teamwork is the key. Understanding mechanics and your ganglineup.
My 0.2 isk.
The missiles changes are fine. Like everything else. INCLUDING blasters! 
See you in space and getting spanked by evil frig gangs. your tears taste sweater than carebears'. |
Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.04 03:52:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
So what is your target then? I assume its battleship because cruises are anti-BS weapon.
If its at "snipe" range then its probably sniper - thus will move slowly. So both rail and cruise do similiar damage (actually cruise deals more but has impact delay).
If its at close range (lets say he even uses AB to remove damage, tho it would screw his tracking too) you deal less damage due to his speed, and rail ship deals less damage due to reduced tracking.
So where EXACTLY is the problem?
Did you ever fly a sniper ship ? If you did you'd know that at 200km+ ranges you even hit cruisers and frigates for FULL damage, while cruise missiles will have their damage reduced because of speed and sig radius even at 250km.
Also i hit even a cruiser going 340m/s for FULL damage if its at medium ranges, and even if it's close i hit it for FULL damage when it's not going traversal. Ever heard of tracking computers ? And where is the missile counterpart of it ? The railgun damage will be reduced only in few specific situations, when the target has high traversal (high speed on close range with low signature radius), while cruise missiles will ALWAYS get a damage reduction because of speed/sig radius as soon as they move faster than explosion velocity, which currently is very small on SiSi.
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