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Ess Erbe
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:17:00 -
[61]
I can't believe people are calling for lasers, of all weapons, to be nerfed. Is this 2003?
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arbiter reformed
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:19:00 -
[62]
i dont even no what im shouting aboout!!!!!!!!!!
Signature removed as it was stretching the forums. Navigator |
Amy Wang
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:36:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Nowadays EM is one of best damage types to deal (almost tied with pure explosive).
last time I looked the most popular tanking setup was plates, trimarks and an omni tank of dcu/eanms which has EM resist as highest resist still despite the base resist changes
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:40:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/11/2008 11:41:34
Originally by: Amy Wang
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Nowadays EM is one of best damage types to deal (almost tied with pure explosive).
last time I looked the most popular tanking setup was plates, trimarks and an omni tank of dcu/eanms which has EM resist as highest resist still despite the base resist changes
WTS: reading lessons for you
Did you miss the part where i stated that its best vs t2 ships? For t1 doesnt matter - just hit them till they die.
EDIT: o yea i see you are one of those "ill respond to random post from start of the discussion before reading thru rest of it" guys. Next time do your homework and read it all or dont bother responding.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:46:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
For t1 doesnt matter - just hit them till they die.
Not BS and BCs wich are the most common t1 ships in pvp. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise |
Zenrir
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:04:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/11/2008 11:41:34
Originally by: Amy Wang
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Nowadays EM is one of best damage types to deal (almost tied with pure explosive).
last time I looked the most popular tanking setup was plates, trimarks and an omni tank of dcu/eanms which has EM resist as highest resist still despite the base resist changes
WTS: reading lessons for you
Did you miss the part where i stated that its best vs t2 ships? For t1 doesnt matter - just hit them till they die.
EDIT: o yea i see you are one of those "ill respond to random post from start of the discussion before reading thru rest of it" guys. Next time do your homework and read it all or dont bother responding.
I just love how u left out the majority of shiptypes to make your argument fit. Just because someone pointed out that flaw and made u look like a fool doesnt give u the right to exclude him from the discussion.
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Malcanis
RuffRyders Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:08:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
For t1 doesnt matter - just hit them till they die.
Not BS and BCs wich are the most common t1 ships in pvp.
*loads Explosive missiles into Sacrilege's cargo hold.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:10:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/11/2008 12:11:12
Originally by: Zenrir
I just love how u left out the majority of shiptypes to make your argument fit. Just because someone pointed out that flaw and made u look like a fool doesnt give u the right to exclude him from the discussion.
there are more-less same amount of t1 and t2 ships in game.
But if you wish: all laser boats getting damage (so pretty much ones used in pvp, with exception of apoc who gets range instead of damage) will have a bit of advantage over ships of their own class (DPS wise). They also are able to care nice artray of drones or secondary damage systems that enable them to deal explo (achilles heel of most omni-armor tanks).
Examples? Geddon - huge DPS + large drone bay = no problem with "omni armor tanks" (all depends on start range) Abaddon - never heard it had problems with omni tanks
Omen - ****ty cruiser tbh (tier2) but still one of hardest hitters in its cattegory. Also never heard that they had problems breaking other cruiser ships. Also has drone bay and missile launcher slot (hard to fit tho)
Harbinger - called one of best BCs in game. Wonder why - all it got is laser damage which surely shouldnt work vs omni-tanked BCs. 50m3 drone bay.
Frigs? meh - lack of pure "damage dealer" frig.
And thats it from t1 amarr ships who have comparable classess. Only problem is on frig vs frig level - on other levels amarr ships are very comparable or even better than their counterparts in other races arsenals.
So tell me now - where do lasers suck or EM damage is bad?
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Crellion
Art of War Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:28:00 -
[69]
I remember starting a thread in late 2006 warning people to stop this nerf this and nerf that idiocy because they ll ruing the game.
All the ship&mod funboyz of course attacked my OP because "balancing" is your favorite part of EvE. Now I just sit back and laugh at you
Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
Linsyn
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:58:00 -
[70]
Surely with the fall off changes ,the sac took a hit the abaddon is now immoveable the curse looks like its in real trouble too, I'm not sure amarr got off with much
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:59:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
So tell me now - where do laser boats suck or EM damage is bad?
Uhm
1. Omen hardest hitter? You ever tasted the wrath of a thorax for example?
2. Those ships you mention are good regardless of dmg type.
3. What is the retribution then if it's not a pure damage dealer frig? ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:05:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/11/2008 14:05:28
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
So tell me now - where do laser boats suck or EM damage is bad?
1. Omen hardest hitter? You ever tasted the wrath of a thorax for example?
I wrote "one of" not "the". Yes i know that blasterboats are better DPS wise than laser boats in every category. Still doesnt negate the fact that bboat and laserboat can go toe-to-toe in a fight.
Quote:
2. Those ships you mention are good regardless of dmg type.
And thats the point. Suddenly it doesnt matter if i use EM damage - its good. Whats better supposedly "bad EM damage vs armor tanks" holds its own ground there. Point proven?
And some info: i know that lasers are pretty crap when used on non-damage bonused ships. but tbh so are other weapons (with small exception of ACs used on some setups to save cap or just to fit them like on ishtar).
Quote:
3. What is the retribution then if it's not a pure damage dealer frig?
I was only listing t1 ships because guy i quoted said i ignored them. And like i posted before: for t2 vs t2 amarr ships are even better off due to way people usually tank them (post somewhere on page 2).
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:25:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Kingwood Edited by: Kingwood on 12/11/2008 06:50:25 Gotta love it how Caldari players, who complained about the nanocraze the most, are complaining about the nerf now.
Leave my Lasers and my Zealot alone, kthx.
While many of the complaints were based on silliness you have to understand that Caldari represented the LEAST nanoable race and had the LEAST effective weapons against the nano. I had to use frigate missiles to even hope to harm nano ships with any regularity and even then there were instances where the damage could be safely ignored.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:30:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Originally by: Kingwood Edited by: Kingwood on 12/11/2008 06:50:25 Gotta love it how Caldari players, who complained about the nanocraze the most, are complaining about the nerf now.
Leave my Lasers and my Zealot alone, kthx.
While many of the complaints were based on silliness you have to understand that Caldari represented the LEAST nanoable race and had the LEAST effective weapons against the nano. I had to use frigate missiles to even hope to harm nano ships with any regularity and even then there were instances where the damage could be safely ignored.
Or for example use web. Or a friend with web. Even better if he could use rapier/huginn/hyena. Also caldari ships maybe were hardest to nano but WHEN nanoed they were one of better constant damage dealers.
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Pippan
Gallente Armada.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:35:00 -
[75]
lol Laser tracking sucks. Go close and watch that geddon try to stop you with his 3 midslots (1 is used for cap inject btw.) Nerf speed again damnit! Actually remove velocity completely and let us move around with cyno fields everywhere. Make eve a stillstanding slugfest!! No more whines!!! And nerf stacking too !1
anyway.. So stop crying noob. |
Darkness consumes
Amarr Isk Fiends
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:40:00 -
[76]
DONT NERF AMARR... seriously as my girlfriend posted a while ago if we keep nerfing ships this game will be useless and the onlyship worth flying will be the noobship stop the nerf hate just give minmatar gallente and caldari ships some lovin (caldari minimal lovin they are getting alot of love lately
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:43:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Originally by: Kingwood Edited by: Kingwood on 12/11/2008 06:50:25 Gotta love it how Caldari players, who complained about the nanocraze the most, are complaining about the nerf now.
Leave my Lasers and my Zealot alone, kthx.
While many of the complaints were based on silliness you have to understand that Caldari represented the LEAST nanoable race and had the LEAST effective weapons against the nano. I had to use frigate missiles to even hope to harm nano ships with any regularity and even then there were instances where the damage could be safely ignored.
Or for example use web. Or a friend with web. Even better if he could use rapier/huginn/hyena. Also caldari ships maybe were hardest to nano but WHEN nanoed they were one of better constant damage dealers.
The web theory is a decent one but it generally didn't pan out for the the caldari vessel thanks to the often dramatic differences in speed. Personally, I favored the neut approach, or using my Cerberus (or a Caracal similarly fitted if I was shy on cash) fitted wth precision lights. It's unfortuante that the missile mechanic is fundamentally different as it causes a host of balance issues. Missiles could be evaded by simply outrunning them, damage is modified by absoltue speed and size etc. If they operated on similar princples to guns (i.e. transversal versus absolute velocity) a lot of balance problems would go away.
But apparently it would somehow be incredibly difficult to force the missile graphic to demonstate this change.
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Shereza
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:53:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Lasers have been good for a while, it's just taken people this long to realize it. But there were three major boosts:
Whether or not people have noticed them to be good is beside the point, it's the fact that people have been whining about how they've been underpowered for almost 2 years now, even after at least one direct boost (tracking) and now all of a sudden they're overpowered.
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Who cares about DPS/cap-use, every PvP ship is fitting a cap injector. It might have been relevant back before people realized that active tanking sucks and switched to capless buffer tanks, but now it's completely irrelevant. Even the Abaddon (no cap use bonus) can easily be cap-stable, and that's what counts.
The current state of cap warfare just adds emphasis to DPS/cap-use. If you don't have cap. you can't fire.
Higher cap use on lasers means you have fewer shots per booster charge and if your opponent(s) is(/are) hitting you with vampires and/or neutralizers you have a much better chance of getting shots in with a low/no cap. weapon than you do with a high-cap weapon.
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Now, I'm not convinced that lasers are too powerful, as the main problem with blasters is metagame shifts killing solo PvP (where blasters are supposed to dominate). But it's absolutely stupid to say that lasers are weak and useless.
Except I think virtually every person who isn't defending lasers or laughing at the trolls is saying that lasers are overpowered. I won't comment on blasters since my idea of what a weapon system is "supposed to" do is based on the game itself and not the players.
_________________ Number of attempts to make this post: 2 Reason for this message: I don't like logging in everytime I post a reply or get a quote. ____________________
Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval. |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:58:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/11/2008 14:59:18
Originally by: Shereza
The current state of cap warfare just adds emphasis to DPS/cap-use. If you don't have cap. you can't fire.
Higher cap use on lasers means you have fewer shots per booster charge and if your opponent(s) is(/are) hitting you with vampires and/or neutralizers you have a much better chance of getting shots in with a low/no cap. weapon than you do with a high-cap weapon.
Actually, in gangs cap warfare is not that useful (takes too long to disable ships really), and targets do go down much faster then running out of 800 charges is a worry generally.
You're more likely to try knocking out hostile RR / logistics / tackle / whatever with neuts rather then trying to reduce DPS - neuts are bad for protecting from DPS.
Neuting is very powerful for solo though, but solo BS is extremely meh post patch so...
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
MenanceWhite
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:27:00 -
[80]
Edited by: MenanceWhite on 12/11/2008 15:35:12
Originally by: Derek Sigres nano
Seriously, Crow must've been the second ship (right after vaga) that everyone thought about when they hear the word "nano". Besides they have the easiest counter. I think falcon is a pretty cool ship eh nullifies multiple ships dps at 100km and doesnt afraid of anything.
Originally by: Liang Nuren Amarr
-Liang
But you train every race, so you have nothing to complain about, amirite? ---
Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses
Originally by: Oveur
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:39:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Ignore the little tracking number on the weapon info. What matters is tracking at each weapon's optimal range.
Good freaking lord stop saying this, it is not true. What matters is tracking at the range that you are fighting
Yes, if you always fight in a laser ships optimal range you're going to lose. Of course you are, its foolish to think that you should win! If there is a problem that ships can't get to their optimal range then there might be an issue. But considering jump in on a gate is 15km and warp disruptor range 24/28 i find this unlikely.
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Xori Ruscuv
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.12 16:12:00 -
[82]
Medium Pulse Laser spec will be done in a couple of days.
Medium Projectile 5 is already done, just need to train medium AC spec to 4.
Proud ex-blaster pilot. Rest in piece(s), Large Blaster Spec 4!
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.11.12 16:13:00 -
[83]
Originally by: MenanceWhite Edited by: MenanceWhite on 12/11/2008 15:35:12
Originally by: Derek Sigres nano
Seriously, Crow must've been the second ship (right after vaga) that everyone thought about when they hear the word "nano". Besides they have the easiest counter. I think falcon is a pretty cool ship eh nullifies multiple ships dps at 100km and doesnt afraid of anything.
Yes, the crow was nanoable - you'll note I never said caldari had a complete lack I stated they were the LEAST nanoable. The Crow was perhaps the best inty for dealing damage to non nano ships at speed but it was often the worst ship for fighting other interceptors thanks to the simple fact that other intys could outrun the missiles AND damage. Yes, I know, use a web and all that jazz - the same holds true for other ships like the Taranais or Crusader. Both hold more firepower than the Crow and often win that particular slugging match.
Of course, nothing stopped players from trying to nano caldari ships. But the scant number of low slots and high mass meant choosing between speed and firepower was usually a silly choice. Some ships, like the CN Osprey, worked as a nano ship to an extent but ultimately fail in the face of the competition (in the case of the CN Osprey you have the Sacriledge, which does everything the osprey does only it's harder to kill in general).
While missiles worked great from the perspective nano ship firing them (no tracking to worry about) they ultimately failed when it came to actually delivering damage TO a nano ship. Precision heavy missiles might hit for double digit damage aginst slower nano ships. Standard heavies usually hit for single digit damage. HAM's rarely even catch the target unless it's webbed. An entire class of weapons (the medium missile) was, in short, useless when it came to engaging nano ships. Gunships have the ability to manage transversal and force direct approaches in addition to range management and low and mid slot modules to aid them in shooting nano ships. It wasn't until I used a gunship that I realized just how silly the problem was for caldari to have.
The nano age may indeed have been brought down by Caldari pilots, but it's simply because there was no truly effective response in the arsenel. We had a single missile type that worked well, a handful of niche ships and the Falcon to contend against the nano swarm. Something needed to be done. I would have prefereed a missile boost of some variety and keeping the status quo otherwise personally. All I wanted was the ability toactually have a viable fitting that didn't have to make extreme compromises (i.e. nerfing my firepower so badly that a standard cruiser had a chance to slug it out and win) to be even remotely succesful.
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MenanceWhite
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.11.12 16:22:00 -
[84]
Edited by: MenanceWhite on 12/11/2008 16:22:03
Originally by: Derek Sigres very much text
Perhaps there would'nt be so many nanos if there were'nt so many stabbed ravens so people had to scream OMG NURF WCS.
Perhaps there would'nt be so many nanos if missles werent lock - F key - forget and there were'nt any proper counters vs missiles other than speed. ---
Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses
Originally by: Oveur
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.11.13 08:21:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 13/11/2008 08:21:52
Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 12/11/2008 15:52:07 Edited by: Goumindong on 12/11/2008 15:51:06
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Ignore the little tracking number on the weapon info. What matters is tracking at each weapon's optimal range.
Good freaking lord stop saying this, it is not true. What matters is tracking at the range that you are fighting
Yes, if you always fight in a laser ships optimal range you're going to lose. Of course you are, its foolish to think that you should win! If there is a problem that ships can't get to their optimal range then there might be an issue. But considering jump in on a gate is 15km and warp disruptor range 24/28 i find this unlikely.
Originally by: Letifer Deus
By the way, I fly amarr, I think they are fine how they are. As mentioned above, it's simply that the other races aren't able to do what they are supposed to do.
No, its not. Its that other people don't know what other races are supposed to do.
Amarr are supposed to do DPS at medium range. Its all that laser ships do. Now that Amarr is actually doing DPS at medium ranges after the changes[and locus rigs have been fixed, which is a pretty hefty nerf] some people are realizing that they want to do what someone else is doing rather than do what they are doing.
Fleet Superiority? Caldari wins, hands down. The Scorpion, Falcon, Rokh, Eagle, Caracal, and Cerberus are the best fleet ships in the game. Some by larger margins than others. Their snipers have the best range and/or DPS/EHP ratios. Their support has the best ability to kill various targets[Precision Light Missiles HO!] and their ECM is the strongest.
Small gang DPS where an active tank is actually valuable? Gallente takes the cake. Nothing picks off similar or larger sized ships like Gallente does with blasters. Their fleet support is decent with drones now and their snipers tied for last place with minmatar's Maelstrom.
Killing ships smaller than you without specialization? Minmatar is still really damned good at that. The Pest and Phoon might not be as straight up strong as a Mega, but they will both be able to deal with cruisers better. Their utility in tackling is unmatched but their long range sniping is lacking[Maelstrom should be better than the Gallente option due to cross training efficiency gains between rails, Gallente and Caldari]
Amarr Laser ships? DPS, its what they do. Its flashy, and when they aren't shot, they are an integral part of a gang. But its all they do, and its not overpowered. Their support follows the Gallente standard model but offers nothing special in gangs over any other ship.
This.
/thread
And everyone shut up already, the race balance is fine wich it hasn't been for a long long time. The whiners are just whining when they can't shoe horn their race into another races role. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.13 08:31:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Goumindong Good freaking lord stop saying this, it is not true. What matters is tracking at the range that you are fighting
Err... your point? If the range you're fighting at is not your optimal (or at least close to it), you're doing something wrong.
My only point here is that the rad/s tracking number only means something once you include range, and the claims I was replying to did NOT.
Quote: Small gang DPS where an active tank is actually valuable? Gallente takes the cake. Nothing picks off similar or larger sized ships like Gallente does with blasters. Their fleet support is decent with drones now and their snipers tied for last place with minmatar's Maelstrom.
Active (personal, not remote) tanks are never valuable. And outside of 1v1s, the complete lack of range on blasters is a fatal weakness. Once you factor in time spent MWDing into range (especially post-nerf), the slight damage advantage over other weapons just disappears. The drone boats are excellent, however. ----------- Blaster sig removed for now, pending those "changes we've been working on all day". CCP, don't screw this up.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.13 08:43:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Goumindong
more paper tiger crap
And this is why the game now sucks, cos if you wanna do a certain type of combat you need to train a entirely different race.
Amaar are way overpowered.
The game is now ****e, call me when the morons are no longer calling the shots
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Elhina Novae
Sky's Edge
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Posted - 2008.11.13 08:45:00 -
[88]
I can't say Amarr is overpowered.
In all honesty (This isn't trolling), the other races weapon systems are underpowered, and even more now after the patch. Rails/Projectiles/Missiles needs tweaking, no more nerfing here ------------
Originally by: Boz Well
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey ... There's an Amarr problem?
Nothing that can't be solved by more Minmatar nerfs.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.11.13 15:53:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Goumindong on 13/11/2008 15:55:26
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Err... your point? If the range you're fighting at is not your optimal (or at least close to it), you're doing something wrong.
And since a blaster ship against a laser ship means they're both at the same range...
oh wait.
You state that by definition one of you is "doing something wrong", but since that is the case there can be nothing wrong with Amarr, the Gallente pilot is simply "doing something wrong".
If you want to define a problem with Amarr, fine, but you actually need to define the problem.
Quote:
Active (personal, not remote) tanks are never valuable.
This is simply not true. The break point on a tech 2, std exile, overloaded tank on a ship without a tank bonus and low hit points is some 2200 dps. Meaning untill the enemy is doing 2200 DPS to you, the active tank is better.[this is a standard eanm,eanm, dc dual rep vs dual plates, you will not break your modules during the duration, break without overloading is some 1400 dps]
This means that aside from RR, the active tank is better between 1 and 4 BS, since as BS die and tracking and drones are lost, DPS decreases and then pushes your tank value back under the break point.
The break point on a Hyperion is between 3 and 5000 incoming DPS. This is no joke, active tanks are actually really good for small gang fights.
If you don't do small gang fights then you will have a problem. If you don't do tech 2 long range sniping the Rokh will also seem like a waste of space while its actually one of the better ships in the game. If you don't do anti-support work the eagle seems terrible when it is, instead, the premier anti-support ship in the game. If you do a lot of POS shotting the Abaddon will seem terrible, if you're going to drop 10 short range gank BS on something its really damned handy.
Quote:
Active (personal, not remote) tanks are never valuable. And outside of 1v1s, the complete lack of range on blasters is a fatal weakness. Once you factor in time spent MWDing into range (especially post-nerf), the slight damage advantage over other weapons just disappears. The drone boats are excellent, however.
That is the thing, its not a slight damage advantage the tracking advantages make it a pretty damned huge damage advantage. If you stick at 3-5km and try and put some transversal on a laser ship even without an AB, he is going to be missing you and you will be railing him. The added meds of the Hyperion only make this easier. Downsizing to ions and electrons grabs big tracking boosts[ditto for AC's] where lasers gain no such advantages and lose the most DPS in the transition.
At 2.5km with 100 m/s transversal Ion blasters are doing nearly 85% more DPS against a BS than Mega Pulse Lasers. And that is before any tracking bonus. [50% hit vs 80% hit, hit quality formula ho!]
Tech 2 long range ammo provides plenty of range and tracking to compensate. Its not perfect, but 11+16 is 27km of effective range in a neutron blaster.
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Onewingedangel
Minmatar Armada.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 16:59:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Stab Wounds So all the weapon systems are getting nerfed cept lasers with their rediculous range and dps. anyone else agree that after patch amarr will be quite overpowered?
OMG Something was nerfed and now something else needs to be nerfed to compensate. STFU. People like you wreck games. Nerfing goes on until pvp isn't even playable and 1v1s become a memory.
Have you ever played another game? Nerfing eventually destroys everything it touches.
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