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Apoctasy
The Python Cartel
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Posted - 2008.11.15 04:32:00 -
[61]
I flew the manticore almost exclusively before QR.
Now with the missile nerf, don't even bother. Unless your target is a planet and not moving, you'll do **** damage. |
Padan Fain
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Posted - 2008.11.15 06:44:00 -
[62]
I don't know why this guy is asking someone to show him the ropes, he acts like he knows everything already and refuses to listen to anyone who has the audacity to not support his little scheme. |
Yesukhei
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Posted - 2008.11.15 11:07:00 -
[63]
Have never piloted a stealth bomber, but its attributes look scary. 15 km range bomb 2500 base dmg, 1 bomb shot every 2 sec - frigates, cruisers, interdictors, even some battlecruisers seem possible to be destroyed by a single SB with expanded cargohold, loaded with bombs - which may be stored in containers somewhere in safespot, delivered by a transport. Is that true, or in real life smth is wrong? (Besides delivering the SB to the sys, say it's already there) |
JafoPBCFR
One Stop Mining Shop
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Posted - 2008.11.15 13:52:00 -
[64]
Originally by: KInkamache
Originally by: JafoPBCFR Were out there. We are just hard to see! If you werent Gallen id hook ya up in the Steath bomber Channel.
Jafo is there really a SB channel i would love to be on i am a SB pilot as well
yes i had one started when i was in the milita. Maybe i should start one as a General public one for all SB pilots.
Was also Debating of starting a corp of SB pilots. Sb being primary role. just trying to figure if i really want to run another Corp/Guild.
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RedSplat
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.11.15 14:16:00 -
[65]
Posting in a Merin thread I don't want to set the world on fire |
JafoPBCFR
One Stop Mining Shop
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Posted - 2008.11.15 14:20:00 -
[66]
Seeing alot of the posts. I think Most nay sayers dont grasp the fact that SB pilot like to stalk there prey Setup for the rite shot.
One thing In sub warfare was (Diesel Boat Days) was you didnt engage at first sight. They often setup for the best possable shot. They often would wait hours.
Insta PEW PEWs are Not waht a Sb pilot is all about.
I personly see us as the Cap ship killers. Not direct but as Cleanup. Read battle of midway in WW2.
Also Merchant Shipping killers as well. But EVE doesnt really Allow that type of warfare as any Corp in War or Milita Has Industry as alts. Course 0.0 is different. But if there smart when local has a Threat they Station in. (Hopes for the local nerf)
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.15 21:58:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Yesukhei Edited by: Yesukhei on 15/11/2008 11:22:59 Have never piloted a stealth bomber, but its attributes look scary. 15 km explosion range bomb 2500 base dmg, 1 bomb shot every 2 sec - frigates, cruisers, interdictors, even some battlecruisers seem possible to be destroyed by a single SB with expanded cargohold, loaded with bombs - which may be stored in containers somewhere in safespot, delivered by a transport. Is that true, or in real life smth is wrong? (Besides delivering the SB to the sys, say it's already there)
Three things you're missing:
1) The launcher has a reactivation delay. It'll cycle and stop blinking after two seconds, but you need to wait 160s to launch another one.
2) Bombs do greatly reduced damage to small/fast targets, while they have nowhere near enough damage to threaten large/slow ones.
3) Bombs are insanely expensive. It's virtually impossible to do enough damage with your bombs to make them cost-effective. |
Tac Ginaz
Gallente Coalition of Nations
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Posted - 2008.11.16 02:25:00 -
[68]
^ agree with merin on that.
Its why I want the SB's to fire citadel torps. See my sig. -------------------------------------------------
Citadel Torpedoes for Stealth Bombers! Sign Petition |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.16 02:51:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Tac Ginaz ^ agree with merin on that.
Its why I want the SB's to fire citadel torps. See my sig.
Which is an absolutely stupid idea. The increase in damage is way more than offset by the increase in the target's HP, making citadel torp bombers completely useless ships. Even keeping them exactly as they are right now would be better. |
Tac Ginaz
Gallente Coalition of Nations
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Posted - 2008.11.16 04:21:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Which is an absolutely stupid idea. The increase in damage is way more than offset by the increase in the target's HP, making citadel torp bombers completely useless ships. Even keeping them exactly as they are right now would be better.
Well Merin, I've yet to see a constructive post from you.
I've provided numbers to back my suggestion, you provide only opinions with no backing data.
Citadel torpedoes do vastly more damage than a cruise missile does therefore it is not 'offset' by the target's HP (which affects all weapon performances globally so its irrelevant). A bomber has time to fire only 1 salvo at its target at a range where the target does not have time to align and warp out or enough time to lock you and kill you with insta-damage guns before your missiles reach him... meaning inside 40-30km range using cruises.
Currently the bomber firing from long range can only do so as supporting fire to other ships. This is not the bomber's role. Currently the bomber does not deal any damage worth mentioning to its intended targets (cruisers and haulers primarily, BCs and BS's with a small group of bombers) due to the shield/armor/hull and resist amounts. It can only kill frigates and that something CCP has clearly stated was not the intended role.
Leaving the bomber as it is means it will remain broken, with no role it can fulfill.
Citadel torps not only provide a working anti-ship weapon but also complements itself very nicely with the bomber's other weapon: Bombs.
It is a valid solution and the numbers show it.
I'd love to hear a better idea coming from you if you have any. Be part of the solution for once will you?
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Ulfskein Gangr
Caldari Vile Rune Guild Silex Union
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Posted - 2008.11.16 04:23:00 -
[71]
Atlantic Strategy, U-Boats, 1939-1945 * A number of U-boats were dispersed across possible paths of a convoy. * A boat sighting the convoys would signal its course, speed and composition to German Naval Command. * The submarine continues to shadow the convoy, reporting any changes. * The rest of the pack is then ordered to close to the first boat's position. * When the pack is formed a coordinated attack is made on the surface at night. * At dawn the pack withdraws leaving a shadower, and resumes the attack at dusk.
It is not too far a stretch of the imagination to understand that a U-boat submerging is the EvE equivalent of a stealth bomber cloaking. Just as the U-boat is extremely vulnerable when surfaced, it was still required under many circumstances... including the actual launching of torpedoes. This certainly did not stop them from being a very real threat to merchant vessels (and others) for virtually the entire duration of the war.
Toshiro GreyHawk in his observations brings up the core inspiration for my own use of stealth bombers in EvE, and having put into practice equivalent tactics in-game that were analysed in their original context I have found them to be phenomenally effective when flying a stealth bomber either solo or in a pack. I have additionally not seen any great difference between my own bombers' functionality before and after the latest patch, and I attribute much of this to the having adopted strategies based on the "U-boat paradigm" since day one.
The bottom line is that, possibly to a greater degree than with most other ships, the stealth bomber pilot is a breed unto themselves and to fly them effectively requires much more of the player than the usual "brute force and ignorance" method often seen with other ships. One can argue it ad nauseum but the proof is in their actual usage... I personally hope that threads like this completely crush the idea that stealth bombers and other covert ops ships are effectual in combat. It only adds to their actual value when they surface and fire upon unsuspecting or defenseless targets, putting to test their illusion of safety. |
Tac Ginaz
Gallente Coalition of Nations
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Posted - 2008.11.16 04:46:00 -
[72]
The comparison is valid. However local chat showing your presence and the choke points of stargates make the wolfpack or commerce raider role technically impossible.
Also, WW2 subs carried significantly more firepower than our bomber does. one or two torpedoes in WW2 were enough to cripple or sink any merchant vessel. Usually anywhere between 2 to 6 torpedoes would sink ships up to cruiser sizes and 10+ recorded kills on battleships and super-battleships.
(im not including the Bismark or Shinano as both these super-BS's were sunk or crippled by an extremely lucky torpedo hit)
Once local is gone and once bomber alpha damage is truly scaled to affect larger ships, then it will be a WW2 sub equivalent. -------------------------------------------------
Citadel Torpedoes for Stealth Bombers! Sign Petition |
Ulfskein Gangr
Caldari Vile Rune Guild Silex Union
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Posted - 2008.11.16 05:20:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Tac Ginaz The comparison is valid. However local chat showing your presence and the choke points of stargates make the wolfpack or commerce raider role technically impossible.
Also, WW2 subs carried significantly more firepower than our bomber does. one or two torpedoes in WW2 were enough to cripple or sink any merchant vessel. Usually anywhere between 2 to 6 torpedoes would sink ships up to cruiser sizes and 10+ recorded kills on battleships and super-battleships.
(im not including the Bismark or Shinano as both these super-BS's were sunk or crippled by an extremely lucky torpedo hit)
Once local is gone and once bomber alpha damage is truly scaled to affect larger ships, then it will be a WW2 sub equivalent.
The comparison wasn't meant to be completely literal of course, as there are an incalculable number of variables that drastically alter the dynamics between the two situations. In spirit, however, is where the tactics get developed...
Consider the example of the ubiquitous "local channel". Its really not much different than a type of sonar or other indication that "something/someone" is out there and their likelihood of being hostile. This certainly goes both ways (as the hunter also uses local for a headcount, presumably) and it is not unheard of for a stealth bomber pilot to remain in local (cloaked) for long enough to have been written off as AFK. It is only a matter of time before potential targets go back to a "business as usual" attitude due to complacency. Local also doesn't indicate whether a pilot is docked or active, and is certainly not an effective monitor in cases where there are more pilots in local than can be comfortably viewed without using a vertical scroll bar.
I certainly don't disagree with the proposition of upscaling the damage of bomber strikes, but this will just muck the mechanics of the game unless it is very carefully considered from all perspectives. What is more interesting to me is the pilot's ability to analyse the game mechanics "as-is" and work within the parameters that are given to come up with innovative ways to utilize the tools that are given them. It is, for me, the most challenging and creative way to adapt to changing conditions in the EvE universe. Stealth bombers, because of their already specialized nature, provide a perfect opportunity for developing new methods of maximizing a unit's effectiveness.
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Tac Ginaz
Gallente Coalition of Nations
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Posted - 2008.11.16 05:57:00 -
[74]
You and I think alike :)
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Mr Morimoto
Nubs.
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Posted - 2008.11.16 10:20:00 -
[75]
Yes!!!! I endorse more pilots flying expensive ships that cant hit me. You sir, win
Cannon Fodder
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Mrs Swallows
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Posted - 2008.11.16 10:51:00 -
[76]
Munnin, 70mil - 5* 725mm II - 2* Gyro
- 1883 Alpha strike
Manticore - 20mil - 3* Cruise II - 2* BC
- 2312 Alpha strike
Result, me wondering why i trainned for a munnin!!!!!
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Freezehunter
Gallente O.W.N. Corp OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.16 13:29:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Killer Kelly My experience is this. If you are good at Spy in Team Fortress 2, you are good at Stealth Bomber in EVE. The ambush tactics are basically the same. Prey on the alone.
I also play team fortress 2, and the spy class is my favorite after Sniper...
Yesterday, while searching for Eve online videos on youtube, i came across ARGH69's "stealth bomber hit and run" videos...
I was instantly hooked by what i saw there, and i am really set on training for a nemesis, that ship class seems to be EXACTLY like the spy class in TF 2, you uncloak, backstab (instapop), recloak, run away...
I wanted to recruit him in my corp...
I checked his Character ingame, and it turns out he has been in in caldari provisions from the first day after the QR patch...
His bio reads "i have decided to quit eve because the QR patch has completely destroyed my gameplay"
Now i ask you this, once and for all, i need answers from dedicated SB pilots ONLY!
If you have played in a SB after the patch, please tell me if it's worth it to fly one anymore, so that i know what to train next...
I am confused, please reply here or send me an eve mail about the post patch SB...
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JafoPBCFR
One Stop Mining Shop
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Posted - 2008.11.16 14:04:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Mr Morimoto
Yes!!!! I endorse more pilots flying expensive ships that cant hit me. You sir, win
Cannon Fodder
Maybe im reading it wrong but it would seem the Manti didnt Fire at you? You got the Drop on him and Ofcourse youd Win if that happen. SB are not tanks Not even the old cardboard ones ya got for th fourth that never rolled or shot all the Sparks.
Elaborate on the Detail fo the Kill did he Shoot back?
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Basilla Lambros
Gallente Mort's of Caille
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Posted - 2008.11.16 15:20:00 -
[79]
FreezeHunter, I am not a dedicated SB pilot (Yet) but I have heard a few people talking...
I wouldn't worry about Stealth Bombers being nerfed. a lot of people say it really didn't effect them. I think the only people who think that the ship is crippled are the skeptics, and the usual group of people who get frustrated EVERY patch, because something or another was nerfed.
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Tac Ginaz
Gallente Coalition of Nations
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Posted - 2008.11.16 17:43:00 -
[80]
Basilla,
If you check on my character you'll see how old it is. Stealth Bomber was my first specialization and its today, my favourite specialization. I fly this ship in PVP exclusively. I love it even though its a painful experience to use it. I have several setups for my bombers most people consider crazy or suicidal but they work better than the bread & butter templates you see in the forum.
Over the years the stealth bomber has not changed much. It has had the same issues since it was introduced. Bombs were added to its arsenal which gave it a bit of oomph but the bomb remains, even after this patch, ridiculously expensive to produce compared to its damage output and to the chances said bomb has of actually hitting something before the targets warp out.
The issues have always been:
-Low alpha damage vs intended targets (not frigates).
-Time-to-target delay makes cruise missiles innefective. Firing from 'safety' of 100km also grants your target the safety of distance...they warp out before the missiles arrive.
-Lack of true stealth. --A: No CovOps cloak. The bomber cannot warp cloaked hence it must ambush its targets. --B: Local chat betraying your presence --C: Warp-to-Zero denies the bomber of any merchant targets of opportunity. Impossible to catch a ship between gates unless you happen to be lucky enough to be sitting near the target's 'spawn' point when it jumps in-system and you can scram him.
-Cannot cloak when locked on to. This is a big issue since the game has a feature called auto-lock back. No matter how fast you lock and fire at someone else, the auto-lock allows any ship with a sensor booster running and with decent targetting skills (box4) to lock you back before the timer is up for you to re-cloak. This was tested and proved extensively on ship types from frigates to battleships.
-Bombs innefective vs anything but a very distracted battleship blob. Perhaps that was its intended target in the first place, but how often do you find yourself staring at a fleet blob that has its ships packed so tight? Not a lot. Most fleet blobs have one ship 10km apart to prevent losses to interdictors. Hence, the bombs will barely hit 2 , maybe 3 ships at best in the fleet blob and do rather minimal damage to them once resists are counted in. Multiple bombers firing at the same location is the best tactic of course but you need about 4 bombs to kill off a battleship and thats IF those BS's are in pure sniper setup with no tank mods. at about 5 mill per bomb you're wasting 20 mill isk to have a CHANCE of killing a battleship. Makes no sense imo.
The missile nerf CCP added to this patch does affect the bomber severely.The Cruise missiles now literally do 20% less damage against the ONLY ship it can really threaten: Frigates. You need to rig your ship with dual calefaction or explosion radius rigs to counter this and go back to being able to pop T1 frigates with 1 volley.
It's obvious that CCP has the bomber as the last ship on its list to pay attention to so all we can do is wait and hope they'll fix it. Until then, my bomber will be out there providing LOL and WTF moments to my enemies... and to myself. |
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Tac Ginaz
Gallente Coalition of Nations
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Posted - 2008.11.16 17:53:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Mrs Swallows Munnin, 70mil - 5* 725mm II - 2* Gyro
- 1883 Alpha strike
Manticore - 20mil - 3* Cruise II - 2* BC
- 2312 Alpha strike
Result, me wondering why i trainned for a munnin!!!!!
Considering the munnin has an insane tank compared to the stealth bomber... and that 'alpha strike' for the bomber means firing missile and waiting many seconds for it to hit to deal 2312 damage... and that the muninn deals 1883 damage instantly and will fire 3 to 4 more shots in the same time it takes the bomber's first missile volley to reach target...
don't know, you tell me why you trained this ship. :P -------------------------------------------------
Citadel Torpedoes for Stealth Bombers! Sign Petition |
Tac Ginaz
Gallente Coalition of Nations
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Posted - 2008.11.16 18:42:00 -
[82]
By the way Merin, I put up an alternative solution to the bomber. Its in my sig.
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Re-Design Stealth Bomber Weapons! |
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