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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Sumnamna
Flying Scotsmen
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Posted - 2009.06.02 20:28:00 -
[751]
SIgned
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a grue
Best Path Inc. Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.06.02 23:06:00 -
[752]
Opposed
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Kytanos Termek
Caldari Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.06.02 23:07:00 -
[753]
Fix the range, That is the main issue I had pre and post nerf. Fix it, and I will be happy as a clam. I can accept the rest.
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Kookieater
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Posted - 2009.06.13 12:04:00 -
[754]
I choose Caldari because they under lore of creation guide are the fleet specialist specializing in the art of war.
I'm a pilot who has trained specifically for Caldari's Strengths shield and missles.
At this point I feel sad about both skills as neither serve me well anymore especially the missles!
Training now to make a sniper boat with rails.
Hope I can be of some use in a month to my alliance till then the sound of the mining lasers hitting the rocks around me keep me mezmorized dreaming of the day I can stand on equal ground as the other races of Eve.
/signed in support of increaseing missles effectiveness in fleets.
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Asha Seshanti
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Posted - 2009.06.15 02:36:00 -
[755]
/signed.
6mil SP wasted...
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Diakono
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Posted - 2009.06.15 08:35:00 -
[756]
SIGNED
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Oam Mkoll
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.15 17:12:00 -
[757]
I have to admit, missiles in general have been hit way too hard. By the way rockets are below useless now. Fix those too. |
Theodore Kaczynski
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.06.15 19:13:00 -
[758]
Most of the Caldari whiners in this thread want missiles to be superior to turrets in every way. Missile users already don't have to worry about tracking, falloff, and cap while being able to pick damage types. Missiles shouldn't be superior in every way; they should have their downsides. Rockets do need some fixing, though.
Pre-QR, missiles just wouldn't hit nanoships and therefore would do 0 damage. How was QR a nerf?
PS: Be thankful you're not Minmatar and don't have to deal with large projectile turrets.
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Kytanos Termek
Caldari Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.06.16 01:57:00 -
[759]
Yes we don't have to worry about tracking at all. Instead our damage is directly reduced, even if the target is heading right at us.
Do the research before posting. kthxbye
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2009.06.16 04:56:00 -
[760]
Edited by: Ulstan on 16/06/2009 04:57:26 Edited by: Ulstan on 16/06/2009 04:56:57 There are two ways to reduce missile damage: sig radius, or velocity There are two ways to reduce turret damage: sig radius, or angular velocity
Turrets have an optimal range and do reduced damage beyond that range Missiles have an optimal range and do 0 damage if the target is even 1km beyond that range.
So far, missiles do not seem to be coming out way ahead here.
I do think QR overall helped missiles though. Overall. Cruises are kind of pointless in PVP now and rockets just suck terribly, as does most T2 missile ammo, but at least you can use torps, and heavy missiles actually might pose a threat to fast moving cruisers.
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Uriel Kharan
RobCorp
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Posted - 2009.06.16 06:03:00 -
[761]
/Signed |
Grann Thefauto
Internal Anarchy
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Posted - 2009.06.16 17:01:00 -
[762]
So I've skimmed almost this entire topic and have yet to see any proof that missile DPS is substantially worse than turret DPS when compared with equivalent sized turrets at various speeds and orbit types.
From my experience fighting missile ships in PVP they are still competitive with turrets when fit properly and are immune to tracking disruption to boot.
This topic needs actual proof if you guys want to change anything.
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SupaKudoRio
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Posted - 2009.06.16 17:53:00 -
[763]
Only thing I want right now is to be able to use a missile against the ship size it was meant for without losing damage because that ship is moving at base velocity.
Or a module to increase explosion velocity... |
Theodore Kaczynski
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.06.17 02:23:00 -
[764]
Originally by: Kytanos Termek Yes we don't have to worry about tracking at all. Instead our damage is directly reduced, even if the target is heading right at us.
Do the research before posting. kthxbye
You do the exact same damage regardless of whether the target is heading right at you or at it's maximum transversal against you, and have no worries about falloff. That's a huge advantage over turrets, especially Minmatar ones. By the time your target is within the optimal of a projectile turret, they're probably close enough to mitigate damage via transveral.
Just because your missiles don't always do their theoretical maximum damage doesn't mean they should. This is EVE, not EFT. |
Twilight Magester
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Posted - 2009.06.17 07:14:00 -
[765]
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bearseemon
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Posted - 2009.07.21 02:37:00 -
[766]
signed
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Rebnok
H A V O C
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Posted - 2009.07.21 02:52:00 -
[767]
Originally by: Asha Seshanti /signed.
6mil SP wasted...
Try about 30!
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.07.21 11:37:00 -
[768]
Edited by: chatgris on 21/07/2009 11:38:29
Originally by: SupaKudoRio Only thing I want right now is to be able to use a missile against the ship size it was meant for without losing damage because that ship is moving at base velocity.
Or a module to increase explosion velocity...
Or a module to reduce ship speed?
Barring rockets, missiles are fine. They have their strengths and their weaknesses.
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Lakut
EmpiresMod
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Posted - 2009.07.21 14:46:00 -
[769]
Originally by: Theodore Kaczynski Missile users already don't have to worry about [...] while being able to pick damage types.
Choosing damage types becomes a moot point in PVP (screw PVE) where everybody (as in everybody that isn't comedy fit and/or ratting/plexing) omnitanks in the first place and most missile bonuses except a select few (namely the Raven, Rook and Widow, Lachesis, Huginn and Typhoon (with lolsplitweapons) with RoF bonus, the Golem with a general missile damage bonus, a few of the Amarr missile boats with a general bonus for short range missiles) have bonuses applied to their racial damage type (with a few ships that at least have a RoF bonus on top like the Nighthawk and Cerb or have a minor damage bonus for other damage types like Kestrel, Breacher and Inquisitor).
Going by Caldari ships kin bonus:
According to my calculations using the relevant ship skill at a reasonable Level 4 (-> 20% Kinetic damage bonus, on L5 the damage bonus becomes only more significant meaning less increase after switching ammo), switching ammo away from the kinetic bonuses usually only brings a very minor damage increase thanks to that or even a slight damage decrease, unless your target didn't plug his biggest resistance hole at all.
Rough, quick and dirty calculation examples (assuming 100 as missile base damage) and listing values for bonused missiles (Golem, Sacrilege, etc.) and L5 skill damage for comparison: Drake with T2 Invul and EM Hardener has 58% Thermal, 68.5% Kinetic and 75% EM resists. Going with Drake as a typical Shield tanking example since T1 armor tanks already have Kin as their default second weakest resist and it's a decent damagetype to use against to begin with. EM Missiles: Higher resists than Kinetic, pass. Therm Missiles (100*1-0.58): 42 Bonused Therm Missiles (120*1-0.58): 50.4 Kinetic Missiles (120*1-0.685): 37.8 Kinetic Missiles L5 ship skill (125*1-0.685): 39.375 So depending on your relevant ship skill you'll do around 10% more damage than just sticking with your bonused damage. Not stellar, but an OK increase. OTOH, if you had a bonus on those therm missiles you'd get over 30% increase in damage instead.
Adding another Invul further compresses the spread of resists with therm at 69% and Kin at 76% leaves you with following damage after resists: EM Missiles, higher than Kin resists. Do not want. Therm Missiles (100*1-0.69): 31 Bonused Therm Missiles (120*1-0.69): 37.2 Kin Missiles (120*1-0.767): 27.96 Kin Missiles L5 Skill (125-0.767): 29.125 As expected pretty much the same as the added Invul doesn't change the resists in relation to each other. An approximate 10% increase assuming you hit the right Damage hole against ~30% with a general damage bonus.
Now let's check it with shield rigs (2xEM 1xTherm Shield rigs + 2x Invul) since those are cheap enough for sticking on your average pewpew ship and will probably become more widespread with the addition of rig sizes. You'd end up with 70.6% EM, 74.3% Therm and 76.7% Kin resists. EM Missiles (100*1-0.706): 29.4 Bonused EM Missiles (120*1-0.706): 35.28 Therm Missiles (100*1-0.743): 25.7 Bonused Therm Missies (120-0.743): 30.84 Kin Missiles (120*1-0.767): 27.96 Kin Missiles L5 Skill (125*1-0.767): 29.125 Switching damage type now boils down to a meh damage increase of < 5% for EM and a decrease of ~10% for Therm missiles. With general bonus, you'd get a 26% and 10% damage increase respectively instead.
Best case scenario, Tank with 2x Invul, leaving you with 61.2% EM and 76.6% Kin: EM Missiles (100*1-0.612): 38.8 Bonused EM Missiles (120*1-0.612): 46.56 Kin Missiles (120*1-0.767): 27.96 Kin Missiles L5 Skill (125-1*0.767): 29.125 Now you hit the paydirt where switching damage type is completely and undeniably worth it with ~30% increase in Damage even over L5 ship skill and a buttraeping 65% increase in damage using damage bonused EM missiles.
[continuation follows] Most importantly, the issue is that this is already my signature. ---------- You get a wonderful view from the point of no return. |
Lakut
EmpiresMod
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Posted - 2009.07.21 14:47:00 -
[770]
Edited by: Lakut on 21/07/2009 14:49:27 Sadly those Shield tanks that come completely without EM and/or Therm resistance plugging are according to my experience and a quick glance at a few recent and randomly selected Drake and Raven killmails at eve-kill.net mostly comedy fits that pose no threat to you either way and are going to die in a terrible fire whatever damage type you use, just a little bit slower or ratting fits where you'll obviously be prepared to hit the damage hole if they're tanking against Kin rats.
Additionally, you'll have to find out which category of tank you're dealing with first, because you're potentially worse off with EM or Therm depending on the fit. To do so, you'll have to load rainbow damage first check the damage log for the best hit and spend what feels like an eternity reloading (WTB> 1sec Laser reload times) before you do your max damage. That's 10 seconds doing no damage (except for the launcher(s) that already had the correct missile) potentially negating any damage increase you might get out of it, depending on the duration of the fight, unless for example the DPS increase is absolutely needed to break a passive shield tank's peak regen.
YMMV with armor tanks, but the general problem is the same. While Kin is decent by default after plugging the EXP hole with a Hardener, there's nothing seriously left to shoot at (except against T2 Gallente ships with their high base Kinetic resist, where you're probably better off with *anything* but Kin missiles by default where the lack of a general damage bonus on everything sucks pretty much, too) and when the Kin hole is properly plugged as well you might start to consider Therm missiles.
In general I wouldn't bother to switch missiles on a single flavor bonused boat unless it can reasonably assumed that there's a gaping hole in the resists (ratters that are tanking against specific NPC damage types and especially if they tank against kin damage rats), you're going against a Gallente T2 ship or you know the fit your target is usually using after seeing previous losses using that shiptype on a killboard.
tl;dr: On a ship with a bonus towards a specific missile damage flavour, your increases in damage on a proper omnitank (hole plugged) are on average relatively meh (unless you hit the untanked resistance hole) and if you're unlucky while you run in with the damage type for the expected weakest resist loaded can do quite a bit less damage than your bonused damage type even if the resist is actually lower than the one you're bonused against.
edit/PS: Please correct me should I have any misconceptions about how Resistances get applied and/or errors in my calculations. Most importantly, the issue is that this is already my signature. ---------- You get a wonderful view from the point of no return. |
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Hoo Is
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Posted - 2009.07.21 20:15:00 -
[771]
Originally by: Theodore Kaczynski
Originally by: Kytanos Termek Yes we don't have to worry about tracking at all. Instead our damage is directly reduced, even if the target is heading right at us.
Do the research before posting. kthxbye
You do the exact same damage regardless of whether the target is heading right at you or at it's maximum transversal against you, and have no worries about falloff. That's a huge advantage over turrets, especially Minmatar ones. By the time your target is within the optimal of a projectile turret, they're probably close enough to mitigate damage via transveral.
Just because your missiles don't always do their theoretical maximum damage doesn't mean they should. This is EVE, not EFT.
You forgot about flight time... Missles don't instant hit.
I would say something about defenders, but I have never seen them fit on anything except NPC ships
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Twilight Magester
Caldari Foundation Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.07.22 07:11:00 -
[772]
Originally by: Hoo Is
Originally by: Theodore Kaczynski
Originally by: Kytanos Termek Yes we don't have to worry about tracking at all. Instead our damage is directly reduced, even if the target is heading right at us.
Do the research before posting. kthxbye
You do the exact same damage regardless of whether the target is heading right at you or at it's maximum transversal against you, and have no worries about falloff. That's a huge advantage over turrets, especially Minmatar ones. By the time your target is within the optimal of a projectile turret, they're probably close enough to mitigate damage via transveral.
Just because your missiles don't always do their theoretical maximum damage doesn't mean they should. This is EVE, not EFT.
You forgot about flight time... Missles don't instant hit.
I would say something about defenders, but I have never seen them fit on anything except NPC ships
Missiles don't instant hit, but if the DPS is roughly the same as the same weapon class of turret there's no problem.
What it seems like from this thread, they're not roughly the same (or if the nerf did make them roughly the same people want imba-missiles again) so they should be "fixed."
What we could use here is some EFT-Warriors posting theoretical numbers (if there are already some, I apologize), that at least should give people a reasonable idea of how unbalanced things are.
EFT-Warriors: Don't use all level 5 for one set and 0 skills for another. IMHO the base damage (all L0) and high end damage (all L5) should be compared without fitting modules other than launchers/blasters/rails/lasters etc.
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