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Weryl
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Posted - 2008.11.14 03:46:00 -
[31]
With the web nerf .. the single advantage the Paladin had over the Nightmare is gone ... May as well get a Nightmare |
Musashibou Benkei
Caldari Combined Imperial Fleet
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Posted - 2008.11.14 05:17:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Lilla Kharn Edited by: Lilla Kharn on 13/11/2008 20:45:01 Who uses Tachyon Beam Laser II's for missioning? That's a waste of power and money. Personally, I would change a lot of your fits. Marauders are worth it over faction battleships because the skills needed for them are better than faction battleships, they can tractor and salvage while missioning therefore earning more money faster, and they have upped resists. Low cost of ammo if you use tech II lasers or regular ammo for everyone else.
[Paladin, Mission Tank] Large Armor Repairer II Large Armor Repairer II [empty low slot] (Rat Specific Hardener) [empty low slot] (Rat Specific Hardener) [empty low slot] (Rat Specific Hardener) [empty low slot] (Rat Specific Hardener) Heat Sink II
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Small Tractor Beam I Salvager I Salvager I
Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I
Well let me see; so many people use Tachyon's on the Paladin and Nightmare simply cos you only need to fit 4. And fitting Mega Pulse II's without a tracking computer? Good lucking hitting anything past 45km
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Kadoes Khan
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Posted - 2008.11.14 05:46:00 -
[33]
I've been using a golem(torp) for some time and I have not lost effectiveness with the patch. I'd like some clarification why your golem is not working as a torp ship anymore? -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity." |
CrestoftheStars
Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2008.11.14 06:27:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Anig Browl
Originally by: Musashibou Benkei
How about you READ the damn things that I've posted? The Golem is the only Marauder that DOESN'T get a dps bonus. Hence, the CNR will do more damage. Also, missiles in general have become less effective against targets of all sizes smaller than battlecruisers. Did you fail to read that too?
A useful analysis, but my understanding is that the golem gets a 100% damage boost to torp and cruise as its role bonus, as well as Target painter bonus. Pre-QR, I was considering a long-range torp Golem.
And as someone said, drones change the equation still further. It's hard to make direct comparisons but this is still interesting and I appreciate the effort.
dude, as the guy said, it is clear you have no idea what you are talking about, so why did you even start ? anyway, i ain't gonna say anothing else then my "hyp" is doing 800dps with 600tank with t2, making it a much better pve ship if you know how too use turret it will insta pop those damn frigs as well..
soo well, again. you don't know what you are talking about;)
___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
CrestoftheStars
Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2008.11.14 06:28:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Kadoes Khan I've been using a golem(torp) for some time and I have not lost effectiveness with the patch. I'd like some clarification why your golem is not working as a torp ship anymore?
range obviously. it is very hard to get beyound 60km with it even with maxed skills, and you need around 90km if you don't wanna have to lose time ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Musashibou Benkei
Caldari Combined Imperial Fleet
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Posted - 2008.11.14 06:37:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Kadoes Khan I've been using a golem(torp) for some time and I have not lost effectiveness with the patch. I'd like some clarification why your golem is not working as a torp ship anymore?
That would be because you haven't been looking close enough. Torps are now much less effective against ships smaller than battleship without a target painter.
On top of the extra explosion radius that javelin torps now have, they have even less explosion velocity so they will be able to escape a large portion of the explosion just by moving
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Bobbechk
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.14 09:48:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Bobbechk on 14/11/2008 09:48:20 the vargur is designed to use autocannons (for epic falloff)
add 2 falloff rigs, and barrage and you got a viable nicely tracking setup
...
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Clydar Dramos
101st Space Marine Force The Leathernecks
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Posted - 2008.11.14 10:34:00 -
[38]
I use a Golem with missile range rigs and Javelin Torps (55km range) (or T1 if a short range mission). I still normally one shot most cruisers (no TP), and you'd be mad to shoot T2 ammo at frigates, just release drones and ignore...
I know a CNR can out DPS a Golem, however a Golem easily out tanks it and the tractor beams mean you can salvage the big wrecks as you go making it better...
Using Faction Torps on a pvp BS (no-MWD, no TP) I still get near full damage (8000 volley ish, 6400 ish for Javelins) whereas I get less using Rages, which makes them useless as I ain't going to be shooting a bigger ships (Dread, Carrier) during missions, they do however pawn the structures in missions (9200 volley).
I would fit a TP, but i don't need it.
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Schalac
Caldari Apocalypse Reign
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Posted - 2008.11.14 11:42:00 -
[39]
The single best Raven mission setup was, before QR..
Highs: 6 cruise or 5 torps and drone link Mids:XL Shield booster II, 2 Shield boost amp IIs, 2 invul IIs and a Cap recharger II Lows:4 Cap Flux coil II and a BCS II
Rigs: 3 CCC
With that thing you could solo any mission L4 and below and if you had an Osprey with 2 large shield transporters setup with a perma boost as well then nothing could ever break you in a mission, ever.
I am thinking that even after QR this setup is still the best mission tank there is.
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Musashibou Benkei
Caldari Combined Imperial Fleet
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Posted - 2008.11.15 11:33:00 -
[40]
To the guy who said that the Vargur is meant to fit autocannons:
That's a pretty silly nothing considering other ships (such as the Paladin) are able to comfortably fit a full set of long range weapons. So why shouldn't the Vargur? Restricting a ship to use only the close range weapons sounds quite unintelligent considering it is designed to run missions (hence the tractor beam bonus, duh)
To the guy who said that you can one-shot cruisers without a TP:
Show me a fraps of it cos I have such a hard time believing you. Explosion Radius of Javelin Torpedos: 450m Signature Radius of a cruiser rat: around 100m
There's just no way you can single volley a cruiser especially without a target painter. You couldn't do it pre-QR, you definitely can't do it now.
And to the guy who suggested that fitting:
Great fitting if you want your torps to go no more than 35km. Also, that's a very limited amount of wiggle room/adjustments if you needed to make them. If you have to resort to fitting a cap recharger and that many cap flux coils to make it run perma, you shouldn't have gone with a perma-run setup to begin with.
You're sacfrificing DPS to run a horribly resisted Raven permanently. Good luck trying to run Pirate Invasion with just 2 invulns |
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.11.15 15:26:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Musashibou Benkei
Originally by: Umbriele
Originally by: Musashibou Benkei Golem4 x Cruise Missile Launcher II (49.5 cpu, 1,181.7 pg / launcher)
Wrong, golem is a torpedo boat.
not anymore, silly man. I used a torp raven to do mission. with the new torp nerf, I would never dream of using a torpboat to mission altogether
Since torps arent usable. golem isnt usable. Simple as that. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.11.15 15:27:00 -
[42]
as for faction bs vs marauders... I was expecting to come see Nightmare vs paladin or nvm... thats pretty much only pirate faction ship worth using.
The navy issue ships are nice... but only the CNR really does the job. Megathron and such isnt that popular. Dominix easily beats those. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. |
Umbriele
Gallente Insurgent New Eden Tribe Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.11.17 14:01:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Musashibou Benkei
Originally by: Umbriele
Originally by: Musashibou Benkei Golem4 x Cruise Missile Launcher II (49.5 cpu, 1,181.7 pg / launcher)
Wrong, golem is a torpedo boat.
not anymore, silly man. I used a torp raven to do mission. with the new torp nerf, I would never dream of using a torpboat to mission altogether
First of all I am not silly. Second, not my fault if you dont know how to fit a torp golem.
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Krell Thannar
Amarr Raging PooFlingers
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Posted - 2008.11.17 16:16:00 -
[44]
Those Paladins are a bit over tanked if you ask me.
Personally, I use this kind of setup.
4x Tachyon II w/ Amarr Navy Multi 2x Tractor beams 1x Salvager 1x Stasis Web II 3x Cap Recharger II 1x Amarr Navy Large Rep 2x Amarr Navy EANM 1x Damage Control II 3x Amarr Navy Heat Sinks 2x Auxiliary Nano Pumps
And don't say that it won't fit, it does. It is quite effective at that. |
Sviatoslav KillJoy
Pirate Monkeys
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Posted - 2008.11.18 01:08:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Musashibou Benkei
Originally by: Umbriele
Originally by: Musashibou Benkei Golem4 x Cruise Missile Launcher II (49.5 cpu, 1,181.7 pg / launcher)
Wrong, golem is a torpedo boat.
not anymore, silly man. I used a torp raven to do mission. with the new torp nerf, I would never dream of using a torpboat to mission altogether
Try using the Golem with Javelin torps, target painter + 100mn AF, I dare you. It wont dissapoint. On top of that you can loot and salvage with that ship as well. In general this ship is still one of the best mission ships out there; you just have to know how to fit it.
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Dirtee Girl
Omega Enterprises 0mega Factor
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Posted - 2008.11.18 03:36:00 -
[46]
having doone level 4 missions with most of my accts i have to say honestly i prefer my kronos im really impressed with it . so much so that im currently training for marauders on two more accounts as a stepping stone to dreads . so i prefer the marauders . the fancy upscale faction bs's are more eye candy than anything else .
but i'm also a lazy mission runner i dont pull selective aggro i just do whatever it takes to get all the spawns at once and go to work . but before you think im all uber equiped im not i just have a five'd out guardian alt . but i only need him here or there for 90% of mission i just smash thru them . on the plus side with a web fitted i can pretty much one shot pop frigs ( post QR ) |
Umbriele
Gallente Insurgent New Eden Tribe Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.11.18 08:59:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Umbriele on 18/11/2008 08:59:30
Originally by: Sviatoslav KillJoy
Try using the Golem with Javelin torps, target painter + 100mn AF, I dare you. It wont dissapoint. On top of that you can loot and salvage with that ship as well. In general this ship is still one of the best mission ships out there; you just have to know how to fit it.
or:
4x siege II + javelins (but some angel missions normal torp or even rage) 2x tractor beam 1x automated targeting I
1x dread guristas x-large 1x large cap booster with 800 size charges 1x target painter II or pwnage 4x hardnders II
3x caldari navy BCU 1x PDS II
2x missile velocity rigs
Plus you can add implants: 1x torp damage 5% 1x missile velocity 5x 1x all missile ROF 5% 1x signature radius bonus 5%
Dont forget with missile you can choose the right damage, with lasers its only EM therm. Also I dont fit salvager, just regroup the wreks in 1 point and return with a uber salvage rigged destroyer. Oh and the auto targeting, try it...
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Shatovar
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Posted - 2008.11.19 03:26:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Musashibou Benkei To the guy who said that the Vargur is meant to fit autocannons:
That's a pretty silly nothing considering other ships (such as the Paladin) are able to comfortably fit a full set of long range weapons. So why shouldn't the Vargur? Restricting a ship to use only the close range weapons sounds quite unintelligent considering it is designed to run missions (hence the tractor beam bonus, duh)
To the guy who said that you can one-shot cruisers without a TP:
Show me a fraps of it cos I have such a hard time believing you. Explosion Radius of Javelin Torpedos: 450m Signature Radius of a cruiser rat: around 100m
There's just no way you can single volley a cruiser especially without a target painter. You couldn't do it pre-QR, you definitely can't do it now.
And to the guy who suggested that fitting:
Great fitting if you want your torps to go no more than 35km. Also, that's a very limited amount of wiggle room/adjustments if you needed to make them. If you have to resort to fitting a cap recharger and that many cap flux coils to make it run perma, you shouldn't have gone with a perma-run setup to begin with.
You're sacfrificing DPS to run a horribly resisted Raven permanently. Good luck trying to run Pirate Invasion with just 2 invulns
Post 497 by CCP Fendahl: CCP, Where are you going wiith all of these changes?
So yes, the Vargur is the only Marauder that cannot fit both longrange and shortrange weapons without fitting mods. Instead, we are meant to use ACs. In falloff. (Also note the AC falloff bonus instead of an arty optimal bonus). |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2008.11.19 09:56:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 19/11/2008 09:56:30 Marauders are NPC'ing boats with huge dps as well as regular tanking potential. A fact proven by the lowish grid and frigate strength sensors - even medium ecm drones will mess you up bad :(
Being laz0r specced I can only really comment on the NavPoc/Paladin so here goes:
-Paladin using Tachyons and a single repairer tank will get almost 1000dps using a couple of gun implants. The repairer will handle about 500dps which is more than enough for missions. -Pulse lasers is an option if you would rather have the safety of a dual-rep tank, but it is not really needed. -Three free highslots with the tractor bonus leaves you with a with a very tidy wreckage field for later salvaging - the looting/salvaging is where the money is (except in 0.1-0.3 where mission pay is significantly higher).
-NavPoc HAS to use pulses as it requires a dual-rep tank to even stay alive. Luckily it gets the range bonus so it is not a complete loss. -Compared to the Paladin it has a permanent 20%+ LOWER damage output and has no spare highslots for tractors. -It does win out in raw hitpoints as it gets the 50% faction increase to shield/armour/hull, but overall it doesn't even come close to the efficiency of a Paladin for missions. |
Yuleth Gix
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Posted - 2008.11.19 17:08:00 -
[50]
Listen OP, don't take this the wrong way. I respect the effort and detail you made in your post but your fittings aren't really what i'd call optimal by any stretch.
I fly Torp Golem. Yes I know what I'm doing.
I fly Tach & Pulse Paladin. Yes i know what I'm doing.
I'm sure you had a good point but after going over your setups it was hard for me to continue reading through to conclusion since your arguments are based on your own opinions which I don't agree with. |
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.11.19 20:24:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Musashibou Benkei
Another thing to consider is that since the Quantum Rise expansion, the CNR and indeed the GolemĘs effectiveness have been cut considerably. Rats in missions still fire defenders that will shoot down cruise missiles every now and then, which means that you lose 2 cruise missiles equivalent for every 1 lost. On top of this, the Golem does less damage than the CNR to start with. It doesnĘt make sense to me how a T2 ship that costs anywhere between 650m isk and 700m isk is outperformed by a faction battleship.
The Vargur has got to be the worst example of this. 2 Reactor Control IIĘs were required just to fit the full rack of 1400mm IIĘs. This is simply silly that a Marauder needs extra powergrid support to even fit the weapons it was designed to use.
One thing that separates the Golem from the others is that it is the only ship in the Marauder class that gets no damage bonus of any sort. Even the Paladin which is based off the Apocalypse hull has been given a damage bonus.
1) The golem and all the raven class ships have a rate of fire bonu. It is the equivalent of a damage bonus, especially for a ship that don't use cap to fire.
2) defender have a % chance of intercepting based on number of missiles fired. So if you fire 7 missiles and interception chance is 10% you lose 0.7 missile from the volley and on average 10% of your damage. In the same situation if you fire 4 missiles you lose 0.4 missiles on average and the same 10% of your damage. You don't lose more damage, you always lose the same percentage of your DPS.
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ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2008.11.19 21:04:00 -
[52]
Bhaalgorn ? |
Qui Shon
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Posted - 2008.11.20 11:54:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
-NavPoc HAS to use pulses as it requires a dual-rep tank to even stay alive.
I don't see why. Domi doesn't against Guri/Serp, and the higher base EM res makes tanking EM rats even easier.
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Cadela Fria
Amarr x13 X13 Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.20 13:31:00 -
[54]
@ OP
First of all I'd like to say 3 things.
1. I applaud the amount of data and effort you have put into your analysis, few bother with actually putting any data behind their claims, well job Sir o7
2. I don't think, however, that the various setups you have provided are the optimal ones to make a proper comparison - Having said that, I'd probably sound better if I could provide my own alternatives, but that isn't the case..yet...bear with me though please.
3. I do not dispute the awesome firepower that the Paladin has over many of the other ships, however since the topic is Marauders vs Navy Issue ships, I would like to point out the obvious, using your own data
Paladin 738dps 1,250 million ISK
Apocalypse Navy Issue 573dps 540 million ISK
Paladin Comparison: 710 Million Isk Cheaper
Megathron Navy Issue 696dps 440 million ISK
Paladin Comparison: 810 Million Isk Cheaper
Tempest Fleet Issue 540dps 400 million isk
Paladin Comparison: 850 Million Isk Cheaper
Raven Navy Issue 580dps 477 million ISK
Paladin Comparison: 773 Million Isk Cheaper
I know, I know..it's a shallow comparison, but lets be honest here. Despite your impressive effort and data gathering, your comparison is just as shallow as it's solely based on DPS. If the question is DPS alone, you have to include price.
I'm just pointing out the obvious here
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LoveKebab
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.11.20 14:46:00 -
[55]
vargur is using Autocannons ... |
Firewolf21
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Posted - 2008.11.20 23:50:00 -
[56]
My main is minmater, and using that 4 hardener shield-booster fit is something that my caldari friends use on their ravens to great effect, but otherwise has no business being on a minmatar!
Very few minmatar bs can fit artillery well except for the maelstrom, and even then can get tight without skills.
Oh, and trading a mid for a cap booster plus 800s is a nice thing to have when needed; and DC IIs ftw on practically everything except on passive shield tanks.
Fly safe
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Zaran Darkstar
Divine Slaves
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Posted - 2008.11.21 20:32:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 21/11/2008 20:31:53 Ok here goes my analysis in an attempt to make a long story short.
Paladin vs Abaddon
Paladin wins clearly because with relativly same modules fitted it is like an Abaddon with MUCH BETTER CAP BEHAVIOR that can achieve BETTER DPS even with marauders IV due to its ability to fit Tachyons and can do all that in a greater range.
Paladin vs Navy Apocalypse
Paladin wins in DPS but the Navy Apocalypse is more versatile and delivers equal dps at the end of the day due to its ability to put stonger crystals. Also the navy Apocalypse offers better capacitor behavior in relation with the Paladin but you will need to put faction modules on it while in Paladin you can fit it with simple tech 2. Perhaps the Paladin is slightly better but very very slightly.
Kronos vs Navy Megathron
Kronos wins hands down. Much better dps, much better defence, much better cap,much easier to fit.
Vargur vs Tempest Fleet issue
Vargur wins due to better dps, better tracking,better defence but the Tempest Fleet sucks anyway.
Vargur vs Maelstorm
The Vargur is slightly better due to better speed better tracking better falloff range but has same dps
Golem VS Raven Navy
Golem wins hands down with torps mounted cause with torps the navy Raven will have problem to fit for defence. With Cruise missiles Golem has some valid bonuses and is easier to fit with a better tank but the Raven Navy does more DPS. So for me with Cruiser setup the Raven Navy does better. |
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