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DubanFP
Caldari Evil ALT Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.12 17:49:00 -
[1]
Edited by: DubanFP on 12/11/2008 17:49:59 I'm going to start by saying I generally like CCP's job at running EVE but every once in a while they make a move that has me thinking "how could they not see all these consequences coming?" Every once in a while they make changes with complete disreguard for an ever balooning tree of unintended side effects that they think they can control but can't.
First they nerf nanos, but that opens up two branches of nasty side effects.
1) has the added effect of making it harder for small/solo players to escape through 0.0. So then they think they can make some gates harder to bubble to promote the small time thing.
This branches off to have the side effect of making it nearly impossible to quickly control a gate "unless you want to spend a fair amount of isk and 5 minutes dropping a mobile bubble".
2) The second obvious branch is missiles. It would make missiles way to tough on the newly nerfed nano cruisers or even the close range weapons they're trying to open up a door for.
This brances to.. In order to make missiles more fair on the newly nerfed nanos and speed ships they drastically reduce their hitting power in the 200-4000m/s speed range. Now it's hard to even hit rats unless you have them webbed, even with long range amo.
Because distance isn't a factor to damage in missiles it becomes impossible to balance the webbed ships at short range against the unwebbed ships at long range. If they chose the higher accuracy against long range ships then long range missiles would be too strong at webbed point blank targets.
Unfortunately they chose to balance it toward short range. This winds up screwing the abillity for long range missile to hit a non webbed target that's farther then 13km away... This defeats the purpose of having long range missiles in the first place. Not to mention the problems that are already present.
This is almost bad as when they increased the HP of all ships and added rigs. You know the changes that balooned into the super-passive tanked ships of today like the drake. Not to mention rendering alpha strike nearly useless "goodbye artillery".
I'm not even going to get into the balooning issues of the webifier changes. The problem is that once you open up one fundimental change it has massive consequences. The only way to fix those consequences is to make more branches of the consequence tree making even more problems. _______________
"White, Black, Minmitar, Achura, Male or Female it doesn't matter to me. I'm an equal opportunity killer" |
Gonada
Priory Of The Lemon
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Posted - 2008.11.12 17:55:00 -
[2]
OP is full of fail,
the game is changing, either deal with it or go play WOW< the expansion is out today, you can play your transgendered elf again.
Please, jump into traffic
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Sniper Wolf18
Gallente Apocalypse Ponies H E L I C O N
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:07:00 -
[3]
Actually, DubanFP is usually a good poster and i agree with what he is saying. CCP chose to take the long route and nerf alot of things insetead of buffing a few things (missile speed obv lowering flight time and tracking)
Along with the CONCORD nerf and the fact that this patch is just a way of sweetening the nano-nerf, i think CCP have been making quite a few bad descisions lately. Along with them teaming up with atari i think they may be heading down This road....
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Haakelen
Gallente Fire Mandrill
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:09:00 -
[4]
On one hand, the changes of late were a bit heavy-handed and could've been done better.
On the other hand, the game has to go through occasional drastic change, or it will stagnate completely.
The sum of it seems to me to be kinda meh.
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Solomon XI
Hoist The Colors. Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:10:00 -
[5]
We'll see what happens...
I'm not a fan of these changes, either. But we spent a great deal of time on SiSi testing and the overall issue was balanced out. I don't agree with how missiles were changed.
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Gonada
Priory Of The Lemon
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:15:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Gonada on 12/11/2008 18:15:14
Originally by: Sniper Wolf18 Actually, DubanFP is usually a good poster and i agree with what he is saying. CCP chose to take the long route and nerf alot of things insetead of buffing a few things (missile speed obv lowering flight time and tracking)
Along with the CONCORD nerf and the fact that this patch is just a way of sweetening the nano-nerf, i think CCP have been making quite a few bad descisions lately. Along with them teaming up with atari i think they may be heading down This road....
does he? did he go on SISI and give input over the past 6 months?
as a 2003 player maybe i am a bit jaded, but every expansion the FOTM crowd comes out of the woodwork to moan and complain.
they go the easy route, seemingly without a mind for upcoming changes, knowing that things are unbalenced, thinking their stout proclamations that they are " paying customers" will thwart CCP's vision of the game.
you all, as paying customers have the ability to play or leave the game, go on sis, testing changes, have your say.
most of you did sweet flock all
deal with it
Please, jump into traffic
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Cailais
Amarr 0utbreak
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:18:00 -
[7]
As a rule people are resistant to change. That said I think most of the EVE player base are pretty good at adapting (we're had enough practice) and this patch will be no different.
It will take a few weeks for the new FOTMs to surface - although early adapters will already have these ships and tactics in place. Those that are too slow to evolve into the new paradigm will suffer in the short term until the optimal set ups become more widely known about - and the cycle will repeat itself.
C.
Originally by: Tarminic Your continued whining is somewhat diminished by your continued willingness to give your money to CCP.[/quote |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:21:00 -
[8]
Gonada I did go on sisi and commented on cruise missiles and commented how they are so horridly destroyed. Stealth bomber before could shoot things. Now its flying paper ship.
Due to me not having GM powers on sisi... I was kind of stuck to fd- so I couldnt test cruise vs npcs.
I have no tested cruise vs npcs... and the nerf is so significant it's sad.
The only way for ravens to do missions now is permarun tanks. DPS dealing tank doesnt work anymore.
Which unless you're a newb... is just stupid. You either need to spend 1.5billion per mod or hurt yourself. ------------------------ Have you fed your slaves recently? -BRB Rens |
WhiteSavage
Gallente Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:21:00 -
[9]
People make good point in this thread. Sisi was open and devs talk to players about how developing changes are effecting gameplay. But rather people are too lazy to actually participate in EVE's growth and would rather whine about it.
In the end your playing CCP's game, not yours. ___________________________________________
..My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fiber, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes |
Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:22:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Gonada
does he? did he go on SISI and give input over the past 6 months?
as a 2003 player maybe i am a bit jaded, but every expansion the FOTM crowd comes out of the woodwork to moan and complain.
they go the easy route, seemingly without a mind for upcoming changes, knowing that things are unbalenced, thinking their stout proclamations that they are " paying customers" will thwart CCP's vision of the game.
you all, as paying customers have the ability to play or leave the game, go on sis, testing changes, have your say.
most of you did sweet flock all
deal with it
Why in the world should he go on SiSi and do QA's job? Are CCP going to pay him $8-$15 an hour to test on SiSi? Maybe pay by the report? Testing is a paid job in the video game industry; why should he do it for free just to get a game worth playing?
Yes, they should be able to go blindingly on, expecting CCP to do their job and bring them a quality product for the monthly payments.
In that regard, CCP has failed, and he has every right to complain, and you have no right to criticize him for not doing QA's job for them (and pay for the opportunity to boot).
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:23:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Cailais As a rule people are resistant to change. That said I think most of the EVE player base are pretty good at adapting (we're had enough practice) and this patch will be no different.
It will take a few weeks for the new FOTMs to surface - although early adapters will already have these ships and tactics in place. Those that are too slow to evolve into the new paradigm will suffer in the short term until the optimal set ups become more widely known about - and the cycle will repeat itself.
Thats not even an issue.
Gallente railboats Gallente droneboats. Amarr lasers.
Thats where the fotm is.
But it's ridiculous because if this got nerfed... March will be the furthest date before all these are nerfed also. ------------------------ Have you fed your slaves recently? -BRB Rens |
Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:24:00 -
[12]
Originally by: DubanFP
This branches off to have the side effect of making it nearly impossible to quickly control a gate "unless you want to spend a fair amount of isk and 5 minutes dropping a mobile bubble".
Controlling any significant point should not be a possible to 'do quickly' IMO, let alone 'do quickly' by pporly coordinates forces. The changes thus created additional side-benefits. Why is this a bad thing?
2) The second obvious branch is missiles. It would make missiles way to tough on the newly nerfed nano cruisers or even the close range weapons they're trying to open up a door for.
Originally by: DubanFP This brances to.. In order to make missiles more fair on the newly nerfed nanos and speed ships they drastically reduce their hitting power in the 200-4000m/s speed range. Now it's hard to even hit rats unless you have them webbed, even with long range amo.
Again, this brought balance to missile ships vs. turret ships, which always had problems and needed special tactics to hit much smaller fast moving targets.
Quote:
Unfortunately they chose to balance it toward short range. This winds up screwing the abillity for long range missile to hit a non webbed target that's farther then 13km away... This defeats the purpose of having long range missiles in the first place. Not to mention the problems that are already present.
It makes missiles less useful against long range targets, which can be compensated for by varying damage type against NPCs. Turrets also do less damage at long range, nothing odd here.
Fundamental changes? Yes. Ballooning effects yes. Poor mechanics and unbalanced mechanics, haven't seen you mention them yet. You mention mechanics you don't like, but don't mention why there is an unbalance in these mechanics.
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
SunTzuCsu
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:26:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Gonada
does he? did he go on SISI and give input over the past 6 months?
Well the thing is, those that did, just got ignored anyway, so....
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viiiper
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:36:00 -
[14]
Deal with it, just like the Amarr did. Missiles, snipers Barrr Humbug! Merry Xmas.
:D lucky number 8 htt://www.legionofsparta.com |
Drunken Fury
Minmatar It's A Trap
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:43:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Drunken Fury on 12/11/2008 18:43:51
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 12/11/2008 17:49:59 I'm going to start by saying I generally like CCP's job at running EVE but every once in a while they make a move that has me thinking "how could they not see all these consequences coming?" Every once in a while they make changes with complete disreguard for an ever balooning tree of unintended side effects that they think they can control but can't.
First they nerf nanos, but that opens up two branches of nasty side effects.
1) has the added effect of making it harder for small/solo players to escape through 0.0. So then they think they can make some gates harder to bubble to promote the small time thing.
This branches off to have the side effect of making it nearly impossible to quickly control a gate "unless you want to spend a fair amount of isk and 5 minutes dropping a mobile bubble".
2) The second obvious branch is missiles. It would make missiles way to tough on the newly nerfed nano cruisers or even the close range weapons they're trying to open up a door for.
This brances to.. In order to make missiles more fair on the newly nerfed nanos and speed ships they drastically reduce their hitting power in the 200-4000m/s speed range. Now it's hard to even hit rats unless you have them webbed, even with long range amo.
Because distance isn't a factor to damage in missiles it becomes impossible to balance the webbed ships at short range against the unwebbed ships at long range. If they chose the higher accuracy against long range ships then long range missiles would be too strong at webbed point blank targets.
Unfortunately they chose to balance it toward short range. This winds up screwing the abillity for long range missile to hit a non webbed target that's farther then 13km away... This defeats the purpose of having long range missiles in the first place. Not to mention the problems that are already present.
This is almost bad as when they increased the HP of all ships and added rigs. You know the changes that balooned into the super-passive tanked ships of today like the drake. Not to mention rendering alpha strike nearly useless "goodbye artillery".
I'm not even going to get into the balooning issues of the webifier changes. The problem is that once you open up one fundimental change it has massive consequences. The only way to fix those consequences is to make more branches of the consequence tree making even more problems.
1) user 4 HIC's to bubble a gate. Not a hard concept. Place them in a box configuration around the gate. OH NOES, we'll have a market again for large T2 Bubbles.
2) how about missle users enableing the speed column on their overview. And selecting only the ships that are orbiting at a slower speed, fit a target painter, and web drones. Problem solved. And Yes, I use a golem for lvl 4 missions. This WORKS.
3) you didn't mention it, but you probobly would. Frigates, Destroyers, cruisers are NOT meant to be hit by your cruise missles/torpedo's. USE SMALL DRONES. 2 Web Drones and 3 Light drones WORKS. Train your drone skills up. You'll need em now.
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DubanFP
Caldari Evil ALT Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.12 21:18:00 -
[16]
Edited by: DubanFP on 12/11/2008 21:22:33
Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: DubanFP
This branches off to have the side effect of making it nearly impossible to quickly control a gate "unless you want to spend a fair amount of isk and 5 minutes dropping a mobile bubble".
Controlling any significant point should not be a possible to 'do quickly' IMO, let alone 'do quickly' by pporly coordinates forces. The changes thus created additional side-benefits. Why is this a bad thing?
Because that's the entire purpose of having an interdictor in the first place? If dictors can't effectively do what they were designed to then why do they exist?
The funny thing is a lot of the responses i got treat me as a missile using mission runner that's whining. Funny thing is I make my isk in different ways then mission running now so i barely touch my Raven and for PVP I personally prefer Minmitar. I'll be the first to admit the ships I fly probably stand to gain more then they lose from these changes. Honestly I see some excellent possibilities opening with the patch.
However, I'm pointing out that the changes are very extreme and have consequences far beyond what they were intended to do. When they make large sweeping changes like this the only way to fix a problem is to introduce more problems.
P.S. Sisi is laughable and doesn't at all represent TQ. No unconsensual PVP more or less defeats the entire point of what EVE is about. Not fun, and a poor representation of real PVP. Same thing with most duels.
_______________
"White, Black, Minmitar, Achura, Male or Female it doesn't matter to me. I'm an equal opportunity killer" |
Hsallie
Gallente V i r u s
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Posted - 2008.11.12 21:39:00 -
[17]
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 12/11/2008 21:07:06 1) has the added effect of making it harder for small/solo players to escape through 0.0. So then they think they can make some gates harder to bubble to promote the small time thing.
This branches off to have the side effect of making it nearly impossible to quickly control a gate "unless you want to spend a fair amount of isk and 5 minutes dropping a mobile bubble".
I would really like to hear why you think its harder to solo now ?? yes you cant go about completly safe from harm in your 15km/s crow or the like. But i have been able to get alot more fights solo now that no one is moving at these nasty speeds. So you just have to change your tactic
2) The second obvious branch is missiles. It would make missiles way to tough on the newly nerfed nano cruisers or even the close range weapons they're trying to open up a door for.
This branches to.. In order to make missiles more fair on the newly nerfed nanos and speed ships they drastically reduce their hitting power in the 200-4000m/s speed range. Now it's hard to even hit rats unless you have them webbed, even with long range amo.
Because distance isn't a factor to damage in missiles it becomes impossible to balance the webbed ships at short range against the unwebbed ships at long range. If they chose the higher accuracy against long range ships then long range missiles would be too strong at webbed point blank targets.
Unfortunately they chose to balance it toward short range. This winds up screwing the abillity for long range missile to hit a non webbed target that's farther then 13km away... This defeats the purpose of having long range missiles in the first place. Not to mention the problems that are already present.
This is almost bad as when they increased the HP of all ships and added rigs. You know the changes that balooned into the super-passive tanked ships of today like the drake. Not to mention rendering alpha strike nearly useless "goodbye artillery".
I'm not even going to get into the balooning issues of the webifier changes. The problem is that once you open up one fundimental change it has massive consequences. The only way to fix those consequences is to make more branches of the consequence tree making even more problems.
Yeah well life sucks tbh, missioning in a raven/CNR will be slower now. I am not a full time missioner but i do use missions to make isk when ever i need it, and i think it was a fair change.
As for the "balooning" issues, that is what they have addressed in this patch, the way pvp works now is much more like i remember it from 3 years ago. I will even give you a hint .... "tank your ship now" ... And before you come with the minmatar cant tank aswell thing, no they cant and are not meant to. Minnie ships have to take advantage of both their speed AND then tank the remaining damage.
tried to highlight my resonpses |
Sissy Fuzz
Amarr Sissy Fuzz Communications
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Posted - 2008.11.12 23:47:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Gonada OP is full of fail,
the game is changing, either deal with it or go play WOW< the expansion is out today, you can play your transgendered elf again.
A really mature and relevant response Well done.
Sissy Fuzz The cutest noob smartass. Evah.
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:26:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Gonada Edited by: Gonada on 12/11/2008 18:15:14
Originally by: Sniper Wolf18 Actually, DubanFP is usually a good poster and i agree with what he is saying. CCP chose to take the long route and nerf alot of things insetead of buffing a few things (missile speed obv lowering flight time and tracking)
Along with the CONCORD nerf and the fact that this patch is just a way of sweetening the nano-nerf, i think CCP have been making quite a few bad descisions lately. Along with them teaming up with atari i think they may be heading down This road....
does he? did he go on SISI and give input over the past 6 months?
He did now **** off and shut up.
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Ion Bartzabel
Caldari Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:49:00 -
[20]
Anyone seen the butterfly effect? It's kinda what this game has become. You change one thing, a crapload of other bad ass sideeffects happen:/
This patch was too much, I really hope CCP open their eyes and do something about some changes, like the missile change. It's not right that a bs can speed tank another bs with no speeds mods other than an a afterburner.. missiles where useless enough before patch against nano. Now they are useless to everything, if they dont want to waste 3 tanking slots for TP's, webs, and explosion implants. (even then I can't see the usefullness of missiles ships at all).
Congrats CCP, It's the end of caldari all together. (Thank god I trained up minnie and gallente)
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Irma Phelbs
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Posted - 2008.11.13 10:25:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ion Bartzabel Anyone seen the butterfly effect? It's kinda what this game has become. You change one thing, a crapload of other bad ass sideeffects happen:/
Exactly. The game was good enough that it needed only tweaking (things like buffing precision heavies, buffing large projectiles, nerfing polys and snakes a bit, fixing AF mass...). Redoing completely many important game mechanics is completely overboard and a step back wrt balance, it's likely it will take a good year for the game to get back as balanced as before.
The worst with that patch is that glaring imbalances like the overpowerness of the Falcon vs Rook or a Mega Pulse Maelstrom out damaging an autocannon one at 99% of practical engagement ranges were left completely untouched.
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Bimjo
Caldari Domination. Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2008.11.13 10:30:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Gonada Edited by: Gonada on 12/11/2008 18:15:14
Originally by: Sniper Wolf18 Actually, DubanFP is usually a good poster and i agree with what he is saying. CCP chose to take the long route and nerf alot of things insetead of buffing a few things (missile speed obv lowering flight time and tracking)
Along with the CONCORD nerf and the fact that this patch is just a way of sweetening the nano-nerf, i think CCP have been making quite a few bad descisions lately. Along with them teaming up with atari i think they may be heading down This road....
does he? did he go on SISI and give input over the past 6 months?
as a 2003 player maybe i am a bit jaded, but every expansion the FOTM crowd comes out of the woodwork to moan and complain.
they go the easy route, seemingly without a mind for upcoming changes, knowing that things are unbalenced, thinking their stout proclamations that they are " paying customers" will thwart CCP's vision of the game.
you all, as paying customers have the ability to play or leave the game, go on sis, testing changes, have your say.
most of you did sweet flock all
deal with it
The OP is discussing it in a mature manner, not moaning, you on the other hand show a distinct lack of common sense and maturity,making you,especially as a vet(god help the rest of us vets), a total failure
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AkRoYeR
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Posted - 2008.11.13 10:35:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Sissy Fuzz
Originally by: Gonada OP is full of fail,
the game is changing, either deal with it or go play WOW< the expansion is out today, you can play your transgendered elf again.
A really mature and relevant response Well done.
This!
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Ultrakorne
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Posted - 2008.11.13 10:39:00 -
[24]
a simply question, why do rockets have slower explosion velocity than light missile ( half speed explosion!!)
what the point of rockets? even a titan goes faster than a rocket explosion..
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ghost st
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Posted - 2008.11.13 10:40:00 -
[25]
Edited by: ghost st on 13/11/2008 10:40:45
Originally by: Sniper Wolf18 Actually, DubanFP is usually a good poster and i agree with what he is saying. CCP chose to take the long route and nerf alot of things insetead of buffing a few things (missile speed obv lowering flight time and tracking)
Along with the CONCORD nerf and the fact that this patch is just a way of sweetening the nano-nerf, i think CCP have been making quite a few bad descisions lately. Along with them teaming up with atari i think they may be heading down This road....
This.
Carebears: Waaaaah im going into 0.0 and getting ganked once i jump in. CCP: What! Really! And you couldnt log or cloak Carebears: No, they kill me and i dont even want to fight them. CCP: Well you shouldnt have to pvp unless you want to *hits gates with nerfbat*
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S3dINSTBE
EXPLORATIS Delinquent Habits
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Posted - 2008.11.13 11:26:00 -
[26]
I realise EVE is a game and as such it's not real life (no it really isn't, there's a whole real world out there, I've seen it), but Things don't get nerfed in real life things are invented or reused in different ways to overcome whatever obstacle is in front of them. I think it's called evolution.
So you have submarines that can't be detected by current means you don't call "enter omnipotent being of your choice" and whinge about it until they smite the stealthy invader. You get your best brains on the situiation and figure out a way of de-stealthing that submarine so you can take whatever action you need to. In eve it should be the same. Ships going 15-20km/s has been a problem for a long time and although the nerf fixes those problems it causes others down the line.
As for missiles, how could it possibly feasible to reduce the yield of any warhead whan you are trying to do as much damage to your target as possible? You wouldn't have the USA saying "our neuclear arsenal is far too powerful, we should reduce the damage they do to give us more of a challenge and give the other guys more of a chance". Oh no they would have their weapons do as much damage as they possibly could for their size.
I hear players going on about "adapt or die" when a nerf comes along but really it should be a case of don't nerf a thing then adapt or die.
Stop taking steps backwards and start taking steps forward and make counters for all the uber weapon/ship/ammo otherwise we are all going to end up with spitballs in the PVP/PVE and the game is gonna go to rat****.
If you build it people will come. If you nerf it people will leave. __
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Mallikan
Gallente Plundering Penguins Anarchy.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 11:29:00 -
[27]
tl;dr
Read first reply instead. First reply said fail, I have left the conversation.
--- For great justice. Or something.
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MC Purge
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Posted - 2008.11.13 11:34:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien Why in the world should he go on SiSi and do QA's job? Are CCP going to pay him $8-$15 an hour to test on SiSi? Maybe pay by the report? Testing is a paid job in the video game industry; why should he do it for free just to get a game worth playing?
So you'd prefer that all the gameplay testing for these changes was done by a team of what, 10 to 20 guys who are paid by CCP? That'll totally ensure that it comes out fair and balanced. Totally. I can't see a problem with that approach at all.
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis
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Posted - 2008.11.13 11:38:00 -
[29]
Missiles work absolutely fine in PvP when you web/disable your targets MWD. Missile ships were never great solo ships, they tended to rely on tacklers and nothing has changed in that respect. If your gang can't tackle the target you are trying to kill, you won't be able to put damage on them.
As for your long range missile comments, have your gang tackle your targets and sit off at 90km+ and provide DPS support. They still have a purpose just like in the EVE of before.
*** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Cyb3r Thr3at
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.13 11:40:00 -
[30]
Whinnie FRICKEN parasites.
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