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Omarvelous Caldari Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.11.12 23:25:00 - [1] I've blown the dust off this ship and taken it out for a spin. Tanks 1000 dps Gank Raven just fine. Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Internal Force Field Damage Control Unit 1MN Gistii B-Type AB Warp Scram II <-- dont let them MWD away from you! Webifier II/Fleeting Small Gistii B-Type Shield Booster 4x Light Neutron Blaster II Small 'Knave' NOS 2x Anti-EM Screen Rigs Goes about 889 m/s >1100 m/s overheated. 200ish dps. Sig radius of about 40. Perma run guns, AB, Scram, web, shield booster. If the hostile heavy neuts you - you will lose point - but small nos will cycle fast enough for you to regain it. I recommend turning on drones in your overview - the little warrior II's may pose a problem if the fight lasts long enough. Spare some of your guns for popping light drones. Torps were doing like 4-5 damage and cruise missiles were hitting me for 11. Drones were in single digits too. Watch out for other turret ships outside of scram and web range. Use null to hit out to 10 km. For extra fun add a set of crystals.
Omarvelous Caldari Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.11.12 23:27:00 - [2] Did I mention a precision light missile HAWK or a precision assault missile Caracal/Cerb will RUIN your day? I would be wary of stealth bombers if you're 2x webbed.
Amarrbone	Posted - 2008.11.12 23:34:00 - [3] Wow... you can attack a battleship fitted with weapons designed to attack battleships!! Try a precision Cerb/Drake as mentioned and see how long you last.
Manos Malos	Posted - 2008.11.13 00:52:00 - [4] does anyone even use precision missiles? really?
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.11.13 01:44:00 - [5] Originally by: Omarvelous 1MN Gistii B-Type AB Originally by: Omarvelous AB Yeah, this is a comedy setup. ----------- Blaster sig removed for now, pending those "changes we've been working on all day". CCP, don't screw this up.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.13 01:58:00 - [6] Active tank for even more comedy lols. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2008.11.13 02:52:00 - [7] Originally by: Cpt Branko Active tank for even more comedy lols. I have a passive tackle that would hold for 40 seconds against you. Probably. Maybe. Okay I think so.
Omarvelous Caldari Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.11.13 05:02:00 - [8] Edited by: Omarvelous on 13/11/2008 05:07:59 Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Omarvelous 1MN Gistii B-Type AB Originally by: Omarvelous AB Yeah, this is a comedy setup. Laugh it up - those mods were 5-6 mil a piece. You go 890 m/s 1100 m/s overheating. You can use T2 - I chose faction AB because it gets you near the old MWD speeds of this ship. Gistii b-type shields are cheap and the ability to nearly perma run them makes them a hands down winner vs t2 shield boosters. I look forward to your abrasive post tomorrow!
Omarvelous Caldari Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.11.13 05:03:00 - [9] Edited by: Omarvelous on 13/11/2008 05:09:48 Originally by: Cpt Branko Active tank for even more comedy lols. Buffer tank on a Harpy is limited to a medium shield extender. Which requires you to either gimp your dps by fitting a grid mod - or use light electron blasters for crap damage and crap range. Trust me I've flown this ship for a while, I have dozens of setups than I've refined over time. I've also tested this setup with corpmates. Bring your Jaguar/Wolf and I'll school you with this ship. Buffer tanks are fine for ships where you have tons of hitpoints and slots to fit multiple oversized buffer mods and rigs (see Drake). Frigates have too little HP to benefit from buffer. In small gangs this setup works. Its also superior to a T1 cruiser due to the much higher damage negation from sig radius than before. Fly the ship for yourself - keep laughing, I'll look forward to some overconfident pilot kills.
Omarvelous Caldari Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.11.13 05:14:00 - [10] Originally by: Amarrbone Wow... you can attack a battleship fitted with weapons designed to attack battleships!! Try a precision Cerb/Drake as mentioned and see how long you last. [:roll: ]Of course you can bring up any 1 situation where a particular ship will fail. Its not meant to solo EVERYTHING. You don't see me advertising this to be taken up vs a Curse... Rock - paper - scissors. This ship setup is good vs large and slow ships (battleships that will never be able to dictate range against this ship). Sucks vs medium ships with precision weapons or vs other T2 frigate classes. Its a fun T2 frigate dogfighter.

Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2008.11.13 05:43:00 - [11] Originally by: Omarvelous Edited by: Omarvelous on 13/11/2008 05:09:48 Bring your Jaguar/Wolf and I'll school you with this ship. I fly a wolf and I have yet to lose to a harpy.
Omarvelous Caldari Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.11.13 05:57:00 - [12] Originally by: Zarnak Wulf Originally by: Omarvelous Edited by: Omarvelous on 13/11/2008 05:09:48 Bring your Jaguar/Wolf and I'll school you with this ship. I fly a wolf and I have yet to lose to a harpy. Take me up on my offer - run a search agent on me.
Prometheus Exenthal Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.11.13 06:00:00 - [13] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Yeah, this is a comedy setup. It really isn't.. Your 75mm fit is a comedy setup - FRIGANK\|FRIGANK 2
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.11.13 06:20:00 - [14] Originally by: Omarvelous You go 890 m/s 1100 m/s overheating. Wow. Find a way to add another 1000m/s and you might make it to non-comedy status. Of course you need a MWD for that... Quote: You can use T2 - I chose faction AB because it gets you near the old MWD speeds of this ship. Gistii b-type shields are cheap and the ability to nearly perma run them makes them a hands down winner vs t2 shield boosters. Why would you ever want to go back to the old MWD speeds of the ship, when the old MWD speeds were the reason everyone hated it? Fit a MWD and enjoy your massive speed boost. As for the active tank, sure, the B-type is awesome if you want an active tank. Unfortunately, active tanks in PvP suck. It's a nice choice for carebearing though. Originally by: Omarvelous Buffer tank on a Harpy is limited to a medium shield extender. Which requires you to either gimp your dps by fitting a grid mod - or use light electron blasters for crap damage and crap range. Trust me I've flown this ship for a while, I have dozens of setups than I've refined over time. I've also tested this setup with corpmates. Fit 75mm rails instead of blasters. If you fit a MWD and orbit outside of web range, you'll avoid most gun damage, out-run all but light drones, and you can tank those drones long enough for your dps ships to kill the target. Quote: Buffer tanks are fine for ships where you have tons of hitpoints and slots to fit multiple oversized buffer mods and rigs (see Drake). Buffer tanks are for every PvP ship. Honestly, I would have a hard time coming up with a ship that isn't best used with a buffer tank. Quote: Frigates have too little HP to benefit from buffer. It's all relative to what you're trying to tank. When your biggest concern is light drones, a MSE II buffer will buy you enough time for the dps ships to score the kill. You are using the ship in its proper role as a tackler, right? I look forward to your abrasive post tomorrow! ----------- Blaster sig removed for now, pending those "changes we've been working on all day". CCP, don't screw this up.
Prometheus Exenthal Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.11.13 07:36:00 - [15] Merin, you fail on multiple levels. OP, there's nothing wrong with your fit. I would change the web for a passive EM mod though. MWD on an AF is still suicide, don't let anyone tell you different. - FRIGANK\|FRIGANK 2
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.11.13 07:51:00 - [16] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 13/11/2008 07:50:42 Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal MWD on an AF is still suicide, don't let anyone tell you different. *Not* fitting a MWD is suicide. Without a MWD, cruisers are faster than you. Think about that for just a second, and understand what it means. Or don't. Feel free to keep fitting ABs, and I'll keep laughing at them when I see them. In countless SiSi fights, I have yet to lose to an AB assault frigate, the best they can ever do is force me to run away and take a draw. ----------- Blaster sig removed for now, pending those "changes we've been working on all day". CCP, don't screw this up.
Prometheus Exenthal Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.11.13 08:00:00 - [17] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 13/11/2008 07:50:42 Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal MWD on an AF is still suicide, don't let anyone tell you different. *Not* fitting a MWD is suicide. Without a MWD, cruisers are faster than you. So what are they going to do once I'm webbed? Tickle my ship with drones which are killed faster than they are deployed? Blah blah neuts etc, that's why my Ishkurs are all boosted AND run a nos. SOME ships (ie: gank fit anything) don't fit neuts and orbiting under guns is a peice of cake. Obviously he is flying a Harpy and not an Ishkur, but my point is that w/ an MWD all you're doing is nuking your cap, sig radius, maneuverability, and fitting. ~900m/s(~1200m/s) with an AB is plenty. You aren't a tackling ship. You aren't a solopwnmobile. Stop trying to fit as such. Sidenote: I can guarantee if that if you were to use your 75mm railgun lolfit vs the OPs fit, you wouldn't be able to kill him. In fact I can predict that you would run off (or call for help) when you realized his tank wasn't breaking. - FRIGANK\|FRIGANK 2
Elhina Novae Sky's Edge	Posted - 2008.11.13 08:07:00 - [18] I like your setup, looks pretty much how I would fit it. And I don't care what people say, I myself don't believe active tanking is "epic fail lulz"/"comedy setup" on an Assault Frigate, quite the opposite. An Assault frig already has a low amount of "EHP" so there is no need trying to fix that, if it can active tank then do it. I haven't had a chance to test pvp since Quantum Rise came, but the changes to when Signature radius has a heavy impact on missiles, and the speeds you can get with your afterburner is decent / enough to outrun most missile damage and outtrack turrets even in webrange. And fighting in webrange with an AF is viable Merin this is something I atleast had tried out on the test servers. I think roaming gangs containing Assault Frigates and your beloved Afterburners will be more popular then you think. ------------ Originally by: Boz Well Originally by: SurrenderMonkey ... There's an Amarr problem? Nothing that can't be solved by more Minmatar nerfs.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.11.13 08:09:00 - [19] Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal So what are they going to do once I'm webbed? Tickle my ship with drones which are killed faster than they are deployed? Blah blah neuts etc, that's why my Ishkurs are all boosted AND run a nos. SOME ships (ie: gank fit anything) don't fit neuts and orbiting under guns is a peice of cake. You seem to be under the strange impression that the target is going to MWD right into web range. Consider the alternative, where the target uses its MWD to stay at *long* range. Consider what this means for your transversal, escape options, and chance of keeping the target scrambled. Quote: Obviously he is flying a Harpy and not an Ishkur, but my point is that w/ an MWD all you're doing is nuking your cap, sig radius, maneuverability, and fitting. ~900m/s(~1200m/s) with an AB is plenty. Slower than a cruiser is NOT "plenty". Stop thinking of a MWD as tank, and think of it as range control and mobility. Quote: You aren't a tackling ship. You aren't a solopwnmobile. Stop trying to fit as such. Think again. The Harpy IS a tackler, that's what AFs are awesome at. Consider what interceptors no longer being fast enough to avoid Warrior IIs means for your choice of tackler. Quote: Sidenote: I can guarantee if that if you were to use your 75mm railgun lolfit vs the OPs fit, you wouldn't be able to kill him. In fact I can predict that you would run off (or call for help) when you realized his tank wasn't breaking. So? I'll gladly take a scenario where the worst that can possibly happen is I have to accept a draw and let my target escape. ----------- Blaster sig removed for now, pending those "changes we've been working on all day". CCP, don't screw this up.
Prometheus Exenthal Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.11.13 08:17:00 - [20] Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal on 13/11/2008 08:17:28 LOL @ drones vs inty comment.. Fly a crusader ffs, then laugh at all the drones thrown at you. I'd like to see your super-mobile cruiser that can keep in weapon range (and do reasonable dps), keep point and range w/ mwd running. A cruiser in web range is going nowhere. A cruiser "maintaining range" w/ an mwd running caps out long before a (skilled) AF is dead. Not to mention the old burn away then turn around trick. If a cruiser were trying to maintain range, an AF can EASILY catch it with that handy bit of manuevering. - FRIGANK\|FRIGANK 2

Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.11.13 08:36:00 - [21] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Yeah, this is a comedy setup. No, it really isn't. Your own narrow mindset of placing the AFs only in the role of primary tackler is the main source of "comedy" here.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.13 12:37:00 - [22] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 13/11/2008 12:43:13 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 13/11/2008 12:41:29 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 13/11/2008 12:40:29 Originally by: Omarvelous Buffer tank on a Harpy is limited to a medium shield extender. Which requires you to either gimp your dps by fitting a grid mod - or use light electron blasters for crap damage and crap range. You can fit a full rack of ions + MSE + no grid mods at all quite easily, and its EHP becomes quite solid. You get a Jaguar which hits harder (at shorter range), is slower, but has very similar EHP. Small caveat is that it requires AWU V. The problem with active tanking for larger ship takedowns is that you don't run crap when neuted, so MSE - which gives you plenty of EHP for a frig hull, enables you to take on drones for quite some time and so on is comparatively a lot of win. All the cruiser/BC hulls I can be bothered to fly now have dual neuts of some variety. The best you can hope to run in that case is a scrambler, and in fact all you should be worried about running is the scrambler - once it shuts down, you die a horrible death. Ask Zarnak That said, if the ship has ECM drones you just die, so don't sink too much ISK in a AF you'll take cruisers on in webrange, its not going to work once you run into someone with ECMs, and betting 45-50M ISK that the other guy isn't properly fit is not my idea of sensible PVP practice. For AF v AF work, it actually might work unless you run into a high damage AF, where you'll die (Ishkur,Wolf with third midslot to keep you around , etc). That said, the MSE Harpy will also work vs nearly all the AFs too, since it actually does incredibly competitive damage with some serious buffer. In small gangs which you mention, the setup is fail. Your damage mitigation in gangs is much smaller then for solo, while your lack of range means that you will be in multiple web range, with low transversals vs many targets and no EHP to speak of. 150 DPS tank maximum where you will realistically expect 350-400 effective DPS if the hostile FC decides to dispose AFs by giving the famous 'turkey shoot!' command, combined with about 3K EHP tops means your lifespan is 20 seconds... at best. T1 cruisers >> AFs for gangs anyway. More DPS, more EHP, ECM/damage drones, and cheaper to boot. Unless your AF is the tackler where it does massively better then the T1 cruiser. Which is why Merin is saying 'its the new ceptor' (naturally the 'ima MWDing tackler' approach doesn't work for solo. Originally by: Merin Ryskin Fit 75mm rails instead of blasters. If you fit a MWD and orbit outside of web range, you'll avoid most gun damage, out-run all but light drones, and you can tank those drones long enough for your dps ships to kill the target. Actually, you won't avoid a lot of gun damage - basically, will avoid a fair bit of DPS from falloff unrigged ACs, large guns, or lolfits (like medium blasters and so on). Still, will most likely avoid enough with a MSE buffer to tackle for 15-30s depending on what you run into and then gtfo, if you want to use it as a tackler (at 30s lifespan before gtfo, you fullfill the tackler role quite decently tbh). Plus, total win vs lolfits, or when tackling large ships (where a ceptor cannot hold point for too long with Warrior IIs going at it, while a AF can really). Originally by: Merin Ryskin Quote: Sidenote: I can guarantee if that if you were to use your 75mm railgun lolfit vs the OPs fit, you wouldn't be able to kill him. In fact I can predict that you would run off (or call for help) when you realized his tank wasn't breaking. So? I'll gladly take a scenario where the worst that can possibly happen is I have to accept a draw and let my target escape. I once found this uber active tanked deadspace/etcetc fit Jaguar my Wolf just couldn't break. However, in order to pull off this tank, it had to limit its damage to epic lol proportions and such. So I just took its fire for a few minutes until cavalry came. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Omarvelous Caldari Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.11.13 13:31:00 - [23] RESERVED: Im running late to work! But I have responses fully loaded!!
Omarvelous Caldari Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.11.13 15:16:00 - [24] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Wow. Find a way to add another 1000m/s and you might make it to non-comedy status. Of course you need a MWD for that... I'd argue that if you need speed above all else - fly an interceptor for tackling. Going 2000 m/s to put a scram on a target to stop them from using a MWD - sounds good until you realize the type of targets that would need to be stopped (cruisers, HACS, recons, maybe BC - a MWD BS wont outrun an AB AF) will easily pop your buffer tanked MWD AF as it tries to get into range due to your oversized sig radius. My setup was for attacking a BS - where an AB provides adequate speed. Its also adequate for navigating the smaller bubbles, where the enemy will have a longer time locking your ship because again your sig is much smaller. AF in my opinion are the sig tanking class of ship. A MWD inty even with its bonus will not have as small a sig. ___ Originally by: Merin Ryskin Why would you ever want to go back to the old MWD speeds of the ship, when the old MWD speeds were the reason everyone hated it? Fit a MWD and enjoy your massive speed boost. As for the active tank, sure, the B-type is awesome if you want an active tank. Unfortunately, active tanks in PvP suck. It's a nice choice for carebearing though. The old MWD speeds were hated because relative to other ships your speed was abysmal and acceleration was terrible. A T1 cruiser would be able to fly faster and be more agile. Now with everything slowed down 800-1000 m/s isn't so slow (relatively). I'm not dismissing buffer tanks at all - however they do not work on frigates (thanks to Quantum Rise Mechanics). They work against your sig tank, and you lack the natural ship class buffer and slot quantity to stack oversized buffer mods and rigs to make any sort of a meaningful difference. In other words - an active tank AF has much less time needed to catch up to a buffer tanked AF. Trust me - I used to fly a buffer tanked AF and it was worthless because a T1 cruiser could buffer far better, and sig radius wasn't as important. Now a small sig radius active tanked AF can compete vs a T1 cruiser with buffer tank in SOME situations (vs large ships). ____ Originally by: Merin Ryskin Fit 75mm rails instead of blasters. If you fit a MWD and orbit outside of web range, you'll avoid most gun damage, out-run all but light drones, and you can tank those drones long enough for your dps ships to kill the target. Orbiting at sub 20km in a Harpy to tackle a target can work for some situations. However I'd rather fly an interceptor/dictor to do this task. That said - I do have a fit that uses 125mm rails that does a lot more damage and fires at more useful ranges than 75mm rails will do. ___ Originally by: Merin Ryskin Buffer tanks are for every PvP ship. Honestly, I would have a hard time coming up with a ship that isn't best used with a buffer tank. Undersized ship (frigate) sig tanking vs a larger ship (Battleship) with drones - thats where an active tank is preferred. ___ Originally by: Merin Ryskin It's all relative to what you're trying to tank. When your biggest concern is light drones, a MSE II buffer will buy you enough time for the dps ships to score the kill. You are using the ship in its proper role as a tackler, right? Hard to say. Small drones (fortunetly the harpy's highest resists are vs popular thermal drones), and other ships far enough away to have a low enough sig radius, precision missile ships will cause problems I believe to either setup. I think I see your perspective. Large gangs/fleets with focused fire. You fit buffer tanked ships with logistics, and hope you survive the alpha and combined DPS long enough for your logistics to save you. I argue my sig radius mitigates damage like resists and adds hidden effective hitpoints. An active repper can then keep you in the fight long enough to do your job. This setup with T2 costs 7-8 mil + Harpy costs. Use faction for 1v1s
Miss KillSome Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.11.13 15:22:00 - [25] guys, its not about speed anymore.. Its about having as low sig radius as possible while having as high speed as possible.. ----- TCODA corporation is recruiting! TCODA is awesome!
Dhejay Centrix Caldari The Wailing Doom	Posted - 2008.11.13 15:27:00 - [26] Originally by: Miss KillSome guys, its not about speed anymore.. Its about having as low sig radius as possible while having as high speed as possible.. ummmm, it's always been about that hasn't it? I notice you contradict yourself in this post, are you in management?
kill0rbunny Caldari Jagdkommando RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.13 15:36:00 - [27] Anyone who doesn't fit a neut now is stupid anyway and can be killed with lots of ships. Go places. Kill people.
Omarvelous Caldari Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.11.13 15:39:00 - [28] Originally by: Cpt Branko You can fit a full rack of ions + MSE + no grid mods at all quite easily, and its EHP becomes quite solid. You get a Jaguar which hits harder (at shorter range), is slower, but has very similar EHP. Small caveat is that it requires AWU V. I have AWU IV for now - but the PG4 implant helps. If you're fitting a buffer + ions then you're running an AB instead of a MWD without a fitting mod. Originally by: Cpt Branko The problem with active tanking for larger ship takedowns is that you don't run crap when neuted, so MSE - which gives you plenty of EHP for a frig hull, enables you to take on drones for quite some time and so on is comparatively a lot of win. All the cruiser/BC hulls I can be bothered to fly now have dual neuts of some variety. The best you can hope to run in that case is a scrambler, and in fact all you should be worried about running is the scrambler - once it shuts down, you die a horrible death. Ask Zarnak The problem with the bufffer + ions setup you are referencing allows no NOS. You're screwed if you're neuted. My setup keeps on ticking - I cap out and the NOS cycles in under 6 seconds to get my tank and point running. A Buffer minnie ship may not worry about cap - a hybrid will! Almost all of my hybrid ships use NOS for this reason. Originally by: Cpt Branko ECM drones - Yep they'll keep you from doing your job - and get you killed vs a cruiser/BC. I would rather avoid those types of targets with my blaster Harpy anyways - its meant for slow oversized targets. Originally by: Cpt Branko AF vs AF I'd love to see how it compares with buffer tanked AF. Not sure if the active tank would mitigate enough damage fast enough for you to chew through the enemy's buffer. Ofc I can overheat my setup - a buffer - not so much. Originally by: Cpt Branko Its the new MWD 'ceptor The role of MWDing to target - firing scram to shutdown their MWD - I would use with a cruiser. I'm talking small 4-5 man gangs - if the enemy FC calls this ship primary - you're screwed with a buffer or an active tank. I suppose I really just want this setup for catching large targets and sig tanking them. Originally by: Cpt Branko rail version to compete with crow I fly a Crow with T2 standard launchers with FoF specifically for disposing warrior IIs. It will still be great for tackling targets. A Rail Harpy is great anti-interceptor/stealth bomber/EAS support - not for encroaching a Crow's tackling role. IMHO. Good discussion - I'm just saying an active tanked AB AF is viable for some pvp situations. Its not an iWIN button - nor do I ever hope any ship I fly becomes that (for fear of the nerf bat!).
Omarvelous Caldari Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.11.13 15:42:00 - [29] Originally by: kill0rbunny Edited by: kill0rbunny on 13/11/2008 15:39:40 It doesn't take much to kill a pilot that's dumb enough not to fit a neut and go out solo anyways, so that leaves you with a ship that can kill noobs solo and will die horribly against pilots that have any ability to pvp. You don't really need a harpy for that tbh. Yep - I assume they have at least 1 heavy neut. Hence the small NOS on this ship. I'm citing specific situations where this ship has a role and will shine - its not meant to take everything in game.
Omarvelous Caldari Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.11.13 15:45:00 - [30] Originally by: Dhejay Centrix Originally by: Miss KillSome guys, its not about speed anymore.. Its about having as low sig radius as possible while having as high speed as possible.. ummmm, it's always been about that hasn't it? I notice you contradict yourself in this post, are you in management? However before you could obtain speeds that would overcome sig penalties and tank far better. Now you can't outrun the sig penalty.



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