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Orakkus
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Posted - 2008.11.16 18:14:00 -
[1]
Prior to Quantum Rise, Muninns were generally considered to be the most sub-par of all the Long-range HACs. I haven't had much chance to mess with my Muninn and I was wondering if anyone else has seen an improvement/change/nerf with any of the Sniper HACs or if things are still the same. |
Captain Falcord
Gallente Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.11.16 18:19:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Captain Falcord on 16/11/2008 18:23:49
Well, muninn has the best Alpha, and considering the big amount of AFs running around lately, I bet it's fun to fly.
Actually I'm looking forward to solo in one, not really for kills but to mess with people :).
Also, with the speed nerf, I assume all the snipers have become more efficient now.
About ranks... Well,
Eagle-> does crap damage. Cerb-> Missiles are pretty much gimped so you couldn't hit small ships with this, altough it shouldn't be bad for hitting big stuff I guess. Deimos... Is deimos even a sniper ship? Zealot-> Good, slightly more DPS than the muninn, but half the alpha.
Yeah, I don't see why the muninn should be bad. |
Captain Falcord
Gallente Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.11.16 20:33:00 -
[3]
Any other opinions apart from mine? :O ---<---@ JackFalcord |
Kadoes Khan
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Posted - 2008.11.16 20:58:00 -
[4]
When it comes to sniper HACs there is really no altenatives, the zealot is god. You can either go pulses and do 450 DPS out to 60KM or go beams and do 275 out past 120KM.
The Cerb is a nice ship and certainly deserves a nod once you get past 100KM but missile flight time makes this unappealing.
The eagle does horrible damage, I guess you could play with a BS fleet as you can hit to 200KM without much trouble, not that you'd be much help but something is better than nothing.
The muninn is nice with quake ammo fitted, as it retains excellent alpha and go shoot far but trying to get decent mid range ship is a pretty sad showing.
I hear sentry ishtars can be decent but I have no experience flying or ever even seeing one. -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity." |
Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.11.16 21:00:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Kadoes Khan When it comes to sniper HACs there is really no altenatives, the zealot is god. You can either go pulses and do 450 DPS out to 60KM or go beams and do 275 out past 120KM.
The Cerb is a nice ship and certainly deserves a nod once you get past 100KM but missile flight time makes this unappealing.
The eagle does horrible damage, I guess you could play with a BS fleet as you can hit to 200KM without much trouble, not that you'd be much help but something is better than nothing.
The muninn is nice with quake ammo fitted, as it retains excellent alpha and go shoot far but trying to get decent mid range ship is a pretty sad showing.
I hear sentry ishtars can be decent but I have no experience flying or ever even seeing one.
sentrygank ishtar = something stupid like 800 dps at 30km
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Captain Falcord
Gallente Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.11.16 21:02:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Kadoes Khan
The muninn is nice with quake ammo fitted, as it retains excellent alpha and go shoot far but trying to get decent mid range ship is a pretty sad showing.
You mean tremor there, right? Quake is almost point-blank O.o. ---<---@ JackFalcord |
Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2008.11.16 21:41:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Kadoes Khan When it comes to sniper HACs there is really no altenatives, the zealot is god. You can either go pulses and do 450 DPS out to 60KM or go beams and do 275 out past 120KM.
50+5 is the maximum range on a pulse Zealot now :( and about 110 with beams, used to be ~150
locus rig fix hit the zealot hard :( __________________________________
Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
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Atius Tirawa
Minmatar Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.11.17 00:50:00 -
[8]
The Zelot is the end all be all of sniper hacs really. . .with the Eagle a close second. The Eagle has more range, but the Zelot has instant crystal changes (grouped wepons ftw) and just melts things. Overall, I see a lot of Munins around too, and I think its just a lot of old ones people are hoping don't suck so much. . .but they do. |
BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.11.17 01:34:00 -
[9]
The cerb is hands-down the best sniper hac imo. I cldnt give 2 damns or a sh*t about delayed damage, it has the highest dps (couting after the volleys hit) at range, and its range is the second longest.
I really tried to like the eagle, i did, but its just so flawed. You have to REALLY gimp your setup to hit out further than a cerb, with a lower base lock range etc u must sacrifice many mids. For its glass cannon fit, its dps is lousy. Cant even pop a jag anymore from range, or even scratch the tank of a sac, etc etc.
Zealots nice but cant hit out long enough, as with the munin.
So imo, skrew delayed damage, considering you can do ur max dps close and far, the cerb is the correct long-range hac. EVE history
Missiles post-nerf |
bldyannoyed
Killed In Action Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2008.11.17 01:58:00 -
[10]
Edited by: bldyannoyed on 17/11/2008 01:58:45 Zealot is still hands own the best.
While it's true that the Locus fix hit it harder than any of the other HAC's it was so ridiculously good before the patch (or stupidly overpowered) that it is STILL the best now. With good fits the Zealot and Muninn now have basically the same optimal range, and the Muninn has about double the falloiff, for what its worth.
It also has double the alpha at the expense of a lot of tracking, about 30% less DPS and regular reloads that hit its damage even more. And the Dps does matter. I know from long and bitter experience that with Carb Lead you will have to be exceedingly lucky to alpha strike anything. And while you wait 6.5 secs for you guns to recycle, the Zealot will already have let off 3 (far more accurate) volleys, popped its target and moved on to the next one.
I also cannot express in words how much of a boost to the Zealot the weapon grouping has been. The ability to instantly and reliably switch between Radio's and Aurora when target size requires is frankly awesome and gives the ship an added level of utility.
So, the Muninn still sucks. Just not quite as much. |
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Wannabehero
Caldari Absolutely No Retreat
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Posted - 2008.11.17 03:26:00 -
[11]
Deimos is not the gallente sniper HAC
Sentry Drone Ishtar is
470 DPS with Bouncer II's at 95km
falloff of 42km past that. --
Don't harsh my mellow |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.11.17 03:47:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Atius Tirawa The Zelot is the end all be all of sniper hacs really. . .with the Eagle a close second. The Eagle has more range, but the Zelot has instant crystal changes (grouped wepons ftw) and just melts things. Overall, I see a lot of Munins around too, and I think its just a lot of old ones people are hoping don't suck so much. . .but they do.
What are you talking about? Eagle beats zealot and muninn at distances past 50km... ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.11.17 05:29:00 -
[13]
Originally by: bldyannoyed Edited by: bldyannoyed on 17/11/2008 01:58:45 Zealot is still hands own the best.
While it's true that the Locus fix hit it harder than any of the other HAC's it was so ridiculously good before the patch (or stupidly overpowered) that it is STILL the best now. With good fits the Zealot and Muninn now have basically the same optimal range, and the Muninn has about double the falloiff, for what its worth.
It also has double the alpha at the expense of a lot of tracking, about 30% less DPS and regular reloads that hit its damage even more. And the Dps does matter. I know from long and bitter experience that with Carb Lead you will have to be exceedingly lucky to alpha strike anything. And while you wait 6.5 secs for you guns to recycle, the Zealot will already have let off 3 (far more accurate) volleys, popped its target and moved on to the next one.
I also cannot express in words how much of a boost to the Zealot the weapon grouping has been. The ability to instantly and reliably switch between Radio's and Aurora when target size requires is frankly awesome and gives the ship an added level of utility.
So, the Muninn still sucks. Just not quite as much.
I guess it all depends on your interpretation of the sniper concept. The Munin has the potential to deliver the most hull crushing alpha but it's saddled with all the downsides of artillery (terrible tracking that only gets worse with T2 ammo, the short locking range of a minmitar ship and so on). The Eagle effortlessly reaches further than any other gun toting sniper HAC but delivers some fairly pitiful DPS and low alpha. The Zealot is an incredible balance of firepower, tracking and range but it sports a low default lock range and a fairly short maximum range. The Cerberus can deliver more damage at longer ranges than the rest but it is saddled with a very long flightime when looking at the extreme range picture.
Personally, I just started flying the Zealot and I think it's fantastic. It's got looks and balanced performance, and most of the time it's range is more than sufficient. I tried to like the eagle but I never found myself in situations where it would have been effective anyway. I used the cerb quite a bit but I flew with AML's because it at least provided me with the opportunity to actually harm those nano ships.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.11.17 06:02:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Derek Sigres The Eagle effortlessly reaches further than any other gun toting sniper HAC but delivers some fairly pitiful DPS and low alpha.
Its dps is far from pitiful if you load short range ammo (to come down to beam and arty ranges) you know and it can shoot farther then beam zealot and arty muninn when it chooses to. |
bldyannoyed
Killed In Action Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2008.11.17 12:00:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Atius Tirawa The Zelot is the end all be all of sniper hacs really. . .with the Eagle a close second. The Eagle has more range, but the Zelot has instant crystal changes (grouped wepons ftw) and just melts things. Overall, I see a lot of Munins around too, and I think its just a lot of old ones people are hoping don't suck so much. . .but they do.
What are you talking about? Eagle beats zealot and muninn at distances past 50km...
Incorrect.
Any setup you can fit on an Eagle that is capable of hitting and locking at 200KM is outdamaged by the Zealot up to 100KM. Only when the Zealot finally switches down to Radios can the Eagle get ahead on damage loading Lead. At this point the Eagle is outdamaging the Zealot by about 1%. The Zealot has a little over 100% better tracking than the Eagle, meaning that realistically at 100KM will be trouncing the Eagle on actual applied damage.
The Eagle's trump card is it's ability to reach out an touch someone at 200km, but as has been said it does pretty poor DPS at that range. However, even 150 dps will kill intercepters if they don't warp out pretty quickly, and ultimately that's what the Eagle is there to do.
So the Eagle has a nice trick up it's sleeve, but anyone believing it even comes close to competing with the Zealot at less than 100KM is on some kind of crazy drug trip. |
Semkhet
The Priory
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Posted - 2008.11.17 13:29:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Semkhet on 17/11/2008 13:33:13
Originally by: bldyannoyed So the Eagle has a nice trick up it's sleeve, but anyone believing it even comes close to competing with the Zealot at less than 100KM is on some kind of crazy drug trip.
LOL. My Zealot does 280 dps up to 100 Km with a 2.5 sec ROF with AB, ECCM and SB on, permarunning at 40% cap. Still 15K EHP and a MAR cooping with the odd LR received damage. Switching guns off can permarun everything with the MAR instead. Switch to Gleam and you can squeeze beyond 500 dps at short range with good skills, implants and navy heatsinks.
I've yet to see an Eagle able to do that, and since the nanonerf, it's not like you need to go at 200 Km to feel safe. Even a snaked ceptor would need 15 seconds to reach the Zealot at 100 Km. And 15 seconds = 4200 dp.
But after all, it's with L. Skydancer you've actually the compassion to talk |
Mickey Simon
Noir.
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Posted - 2008.11.17 13:48:00 -
[17]
Originally by: BiggestT The cerb is hands-down the best sniper hac imo. .
Tried hitting AF's and frigates from any distance in your cerb lately?
Personally, I think Eagles should actually be kinda useful now given how many people are eager to try out AF's which the Cerb doesn't hit too well with heavies. |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.17 13:51:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 17/11/2008 13:51:18
Originally by: Mickey Simon
Originally by: BiggestT The cerb is hands-down the best sniper hac imo. .
Tried hitting AF's and frigates from any distance in your cerb lately?
Personally, I think Eagles should actually be kinda useful now given how many people are eager to try out AF's which the Cerb doesn't hit too well with heavies.
AFs and frigates are like real worrying threats for your gang and all that.
It does do one hell of a job for shooting T2 support cruisers, which generally worry people just a bit more.
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Mickey Simon
Noir.
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Posted - 2008.11.17 14:03:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 17/11/2008 13:51:18 AFs and frigates are like real worrying threats for your gang and all that.
It does do one hell of a job for shooting T2 support cruisers, which generally worry people just a bit more.
Wasn't in anyway saying they're useless, just that I don't think it's "hands down the best sniper hac". Different ships for different purposes imo. Meanwhile, on the other side of town . . . |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.17 14:15:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Mickey Simon
Originally by: BiggestT The cerb is hands-down the best sniper hac imo. .
Tried hitting AF's and frigates from any distance in your cerb lately?
Why yes, I tried shooting a 5 km/s Gistii Claw in my Cerberus only last night. It lasted four volleys.
Such is the terrible truth of the missile nerf.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.11.17 14:20:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Semkhet My Zealot does 280 dps up to 100 Km
You're loading the wrong kind of ammo. Stop shooting at cruisers, Battleships are better than you at that.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.11.17 14:34:00 -
[22]
Originally by: bldyannoyed
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Atius Tirawa The Zelot is the end all be all of sniper hacs really. . .with the Eagle a close second. The Eagle has more range, but the Zelot has instant crystal changes (grouped wepons ftw) and just melts things. Overall, I see a lot of Munins around too, and I think its just a lot of old ones people are hoping don't suck so much. . .but they do.
What are you talking about? Eagle beats zealot and muninn at distances past 50km...
Incorrect.
Any setup you can fit on an Eagle that is capable of hitting and locking at 200KM is outdamaged by the Zealot up to 100KM. Only when the Zealot finally switches down to Radios can the Eagle get ahead on damage loading Lead. At this point the Eagle is outdamaging the Zealot by about 1%. The Zealot has a little over 100% better tracking than the Eagle, meaning that realistically at 100KM will be trouncing the Eagle on actual applied damage.
The Eagle's trump card is it's ability to reach out an touch someone at 200km, but as has been said it does pretty poor DPS at that range. However, even 150 dps will kill intercepters if they don't warp out pretty quickly, and ultimately that's what the Eagle is there to do.
So the Eagle has a nice trick up it's sleeve, but anyone believing it even comes close to competing with the Zealot at less than 100KM is on some kind of crazy drug trip.
Actually that is not really true.
250mm railgun eagle
Lead charge 216dps at 105+15km range with 0.02875 tracking
Heavy beam zealot with 2 TE in lows
Aurora crystal 290dps at 105+10km range with 0.01222 tracking
As you see zealot trades around 75dps for dropping more then half the tracking of the eagle. Eagle will fit frigs alot better then a zealot and zealot will hit larger targets better and for more.
----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise |
Semkhet
The Priory
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Posted - 2008.11.17 15:05:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Semkhet My Zealot does 280 dps up to 100 Km
You're loading the wrong kind of ammo. Stop shooting at cruisers, Battleships are better than you at that.
And you've got the wrong role for HAC's. Guess how many systems you can cover roaming with zealots in the same time you try to do this with BS's ? Range is what will replace speed in HAC-based gangs and that's it. A 5-men zealot gang can unleash between 1.5 and 2.5 Kdps according to range. Enough firepower to inflict swift losses to any subcap medium gang which is not using RR Abaddons. Add a falcon to scout and counter ECM or snipers, plus dictor, and you have a decent small roaming gang able to engage 90% of what's flying in EvE and can even harass skill-less blobs. |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.11.17 16:10:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Derek Sigres The Eagle effortlessly reaches further than any other gun toting sniper HAC but delivers some fairly pitiful DPS and low alpha.
Its dps is far from pitiful if you load short range ammo (to come down to beam and arty ranges) you know and it can shoot farther then beam zealot and arty muninn when it chooses to.
The fairly pitiful DPS comes at the extreme range that most people are tempted to use Eagles at. Yes, the Eagle is well suited to killing tacklers and intercepters at range but beyond that it's just adding a tiny bit of DPS ot a target. I'm not knocking the Eagle, I just never found myself in a position to actually like it. The Zealot seems to be the better blend of speed, tank, firepower and range to me.
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Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.11.17 16:41:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Wannabehero Deimos is not the gallente sniper HAC
Sentry Drone Ishtar is
470 DPS with Bouncer II's at 95km
falloff of 42km past that.
Don't forget that they have a 1880 alpha as well ;)
Pretty much this, as far as Gallente options are concerned. However, that comes at the disadvantage of having to drop/scoop the things, which may or may not be a liability depending on what else is going on.
Although you CAN get a Deimos to reach those ranges (I have one with a 91 km optimal with Spike M), it does less damage than a Zealot of similar range (someone above posted 280? The Rail Deimos only does 220-ish, with less tank; the damage is kin/therm over em/therm, though). Gallente really isn't built to be uber for sniping in HACs :/ |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.17 17:11:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 17/11/2008 17:12:58 QR changed nothing about the relative balance. Sniper HACs overall got a nerf with the removal of locus rigs, but that hit everyone equally.
The Eagle is still the best sniper, and the only one able to reach true fleet ranges.
The Zealot is still very good, and still awesome as a mid-range "sniper" with pulses.
The Deimos... well, at least it's not a Muninn.
The Muninn is still the worst HAC.
Oh, and Goumindong trolling another sniper thread? Why am I not surprised? Just ignore him, his assumption is that the only role of a HAC is sniping high-transversal interceptors at 200km. Therefore the Eagle is massively overpowered, while pulse Zealots are just a comedy option, among other hilarious features of his fantasy world. |
Busy BusinessBee
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Posted - 2008.11.17 17:54:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Busy BusinessBee on 17/11/2008 17:54:45 I ve been flying the Eagle lately a lot in large engagements (MAX be praised ;) )and find it to be an excellent Sniper HAC. The ability to hit nearly 200kms away is especially important in a longer engagement, where you and your targets move. Nothing more "unhealthy" than to fly after your targets and try to close distance in a laggy environment. I fly it with spike m at sniper ranges and with cn antimatter on the gate and for fleet movement. To answer the question of the TS, the eagle hasn't changed at all, imho.
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Semkhet
The Priory
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Posted - 2008.11.17 18:18:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Semkhet on 17/11/2008 18:19:47
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Oh, and Goumindong trolling another sniper thread? Why am I not surprised? Just ignore him, his assumption is that the only role of a HAC is sniping high-transversal interceptors at 200km. Therefore the Eagle is massively overpowered, while pulse Zealots are just a comedy option, among other hilarious features of his fantasy world.
I unfortunately doubt he's trolling. IMHO he's deeply convinced about the nonsense he spits on forums. If you check his skills set, you will understand by looking at his list of lvl 5 that all what's missing is precisely what he would need to train in order to get access to the ships & gear which could allow him to explore new horizons.
It's hilarious to see that a guy criticizing so much nanowarfare like he did was missing almost all the needed skills to actually know what he was talking about since he never could nano himself. And every wise mind knows that the first step to counter something is first a deep understanding on the matter.
We all agree that SP's are no cure for a missing brain. The point is rather that short of enjoying the required sp's, you simply can't use given mods & ships, what in turn prevents you both to test and gather experience in new fields by applying new tactics. Same here. He's a guy who doesn't even have AWU5 after being 2 years in EvE, but regardless considers himself a good PvP'er enough to give lectures to players which have the double of SP's, lvl5's and time invested in this game
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.17 18:32:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 17/11/2008 18:33:58 His positions are pure nonsense, but just looking at those skills doesn't say anything. I don't have AWU V yet (never had a setup that needed it, so why train it?) and I'm entirely focused on Caldari ships. Does that make me unqualified to discuss PvP balance? Of course not, experience and game knowledge counts for far more than whether you specialized or trained all-IV on a million things.
And the problem with nano ships had nothing to do with skill choices. The fundamental problem was the way speed tanking ignored the usual rule of diminishing returns and stacking, producing a huge gap between the ultra-rich/high-skilled and everyone else, as well as forcing a metagame of "nano or die". The fact that you're criticizing him for not flying a nano ship just demonstrates how unbalanced they were. ----------- Blaster sig removed for now, pending those "changes we've been working on all day". CCP, don't screw this up.
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Semkhet
The Priory
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Posted - 2008.11.17 19:22:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 17/11/2008 18:33:58 His positions are pure nonsense, but just looking at those skills doesn't say anything. I don't have AWU V yet (never had a setup that needed it, so why train it?) and I'm entirely focused on Caldari ships. Does that make me unqualified to discuss PvP balance? Of course not, experience and game knowledge counts for far more than whether you specialized or trained all-IV on a million things.
And the problem with nano ships had nothing to do with skill choices. The fundamental problem was the way speed tanking ignored the usual rule of diminishing returns and stacking, producing a huge gap between the ultra-rich/high-skilled and everyone else, as well as forcing a metagame of "nano or die". The fact that you're criticizing him for not flying a nano ship just demonstrates how unbalanced they were.
Sorry to give you a reality check, but form comes from purpose, and not the inverse. You can observe this in astrophysics going all the way down to microbiology. That's why in nature everything which flies exhibit the same fundamental specific properties, ergo for marine life, walking creatures, or whatever field you deem to look at.
Contrary to RL where it wouldn't happen to any sane mind to criticize wheels or tracks which allow over of 99% of our ground vehicles to move, it seems that in EvE common sense is a rare commodity. Why do you think that for ex. almost all military research is focused on improving the accuracy & effective range of ammunition, improving the speed of vehicles and preventing their early detection ? Because it's what works, regardless if we are talking about russians, chinese, north-americans or europeans, that simple. Any PvP'er knowing how to nano never had problems to cope with nanos even when using non-nano fits, provided the ship was prepared for this probability, the same way you won't stand long without a passive tank if you're slow like a snail or without ECCM if your goal is to maintain your lock.
Besides, the only way to understand what EvE PvP is about requires to cross-train in order NOT to be limited to a single race, class of ships and weapons. You want to learn how to pwn a Bhaalgorn ? Fly one. You want to know how to engage RR Abaddons ? Fly one, and so on. CCP gave a clue about this by requiring cross-training in order to use faction ships, but seems that the majority of EvE just don't get things. And a last word about isk: ding dong, last news: EvE is also an Isk game if you want to be able to risk your stuff
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