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Removing Ice from Empire

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Cat Molina Minmatar Psychotic Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.17 00:59:00 - [1] Removing Ice from Empire If you travel to any ice field in Empire, you'll see scores of miners. Some are macro-miners... others are semi-AFK while doing interesting stuff on another screen. Regardless, there's a lot of them... and they mine all day long. That, my friend, is a lot of ice. Ever wonder where it all goes? Do you believe this ice is consumed by privately-owned stations in Empire? I'll tell you where it goes: it is purchased, then safely and efficiently jumped to 0.0 for use by large alliances. And therein lies the problem: alliances in 0.0 are able to fuel their POS's free of danger... by simply alt-mining/purchasing what they need from Empire. Therefore, I suggest removing all ice fields from Empire. Ice asteroids shall only exist in .4 security status systems and lower. For years players have asked for a method of hampering an enemy's logistics. Sadly, in the current state of Eve, it is impossible for a small group to effect the logistics of a 0.0 alliance. Items are jumped, under heavy escort and with minimal danger, from Empire to low-sec to friendly territory. However, by removing ice from Empire, a method is provided for small groups to be effective in putting pressure on an adversary. Currently, a cloaking or fast moving gang (or individual) may engage ratters in 0.0, but please understand that the destruction of a ratting ship only affects that player... not his alliance. By increasing the importance of mining in 0.0 (and the importance of securing space so that miners may do their job), the ability to disrupt a rival alliance's logistics is created. It is commonly addressed that low-sec needs a reward boost to make it more attractive. Removal of ice from Empire will address this problem. Ice products will increase dramatically in price, offering opportunities for smaller corporations to secure lesser-traveled low-sec systems in order to reap the rewards. Note that I'm not saying we should place ice belts in Amamake or Rancer... that would be suicide for miners no matter what the protection. But the majority of low-sec systems are completely devoid of life. And in those areas, a small, bold corporation may stake a claim, get the goods, and profit. This invigorates low-sec; offering rewards while bypassing the problems of moving level 4 missions there. And, to a large extent, does not significantly impact Empire miners: they may still mine ore in safety in high-sec. As an added benefit, the true macro-miners have yet another avenue blocked. A stronger integration of 'carebear' and 'PvPer' will be forged in 0.0 alliances. As stated numerous times on the forums, today there is little need for miners/industrialist in the typical 0.0 alliance. However, with the removal of ice from Empire, alliances must balance the needs of industry with the needs of defense... hardly an unsupportable price tag to claim space as one's own. And remember: the ice belts in player-claimed space will be much safer than those in low-sec. Super-alliances are discouraged. Currently an alliance may, with ease, support towers in systems which their members rarely travel. The super-powers in 0.0 are able to claim territory simply for the sake of claiming it. Why? Because it is relatively easy to keep towers fueled when goods can be mined in the safety of Empire AFK and then jumped out. Remove ice from Empire, and a new dynamic will form: only hold what you can support. ôWe need more 0.0 space!ö The complaint surfaces repeatedly on the forums that the ôlittle guys can't make itöin today's super-powered world. The problem is not the lack of space, but the ease at which it is maintained. This is why the 'little guys' can no longer compete without the aid of an existing super-power. Removing the ice from Empire, while providing a means to disrupt 0.0 logistics, ensures the new kids on the block get a chance to play.
Cat Molina Minmatar Psychotic Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.17 00:59:00 - [2] (cont.) Increased contention for valuable resources. Isn't this what everyone seems to feel is needed these days? More things to fight over? And ways of doing it without lag-bomb blob-battles? Suddenly regions which were long considered worthless become precious, as their ice belts have the ability to sustain, with a bit of defense, an emerging (or existing) super-power. CCP has mentioned that a change to sovereignty mechanics is desired. And let's face it: POS bashes are rarely tons of fun. But you don't have to rewrite the system. By limiting the flow of ice, alliances are forced to sustain only the towers they are willing to support, which has the effect of reducing (admittedly marginally) the huge number of POS's we see today. Closing Thoughts: I'm willing to bet the large super-powers will dislike this proposal. But the truth is, the 'risk vs. reward' mantra which every PvP'er pays lip-service to is currently broken... and has been for some time. I find it highly ironic that many members of 0.0 alliances have, on numerous occasions, decried that level 4 missions in Empire are reward without the risk, all while jumping their needed ice from areas which are very safe. Some personal background to forestall claims that I'm 'not looking at the big picture': I currently maintain two characters on two accounts. I've participated in Empire alliances and 0.0 alliances (both NPC 0.0 and 'true 0.0ö). One character is a combat pilot in low-sec (something of a pirate... but more after fights than loot). The other runs level 4 missions in Empire, does a bit of trading in the markets, and is a fully-trained miner. Yes... I've a cargo-expanded and rigged Mackinaw sitting in Brapillie. And I still maintain that the removal of ice fields from Empire will offer numerous benefits to the game, while causing little damage to individual playstyle. I will appreciate any rational argument on this topic.
Luigi Thirty Caldari 19th Star Logistics	Posted - 2008.11.17 01:02:00 - [3] This is dumb. ---- DOMINIX IS ~~INVINCIBLE~~BLUE:((((
Alty MacAlterson Alt Corporation	Posted - 2008.11.17 01:02:00 - [4] Edited by: Alty MacAlterson on 17/11/2008 01:06:00 Edited by: Alty MacAlterson on 17/11/2008 01:04:10 Edited by: Alty MacAlterson on 17/11/2008 01:03:05 (cont.) The ice is in danger while in transit between empire and 0.0 anyway. And now you've also only **ed off the empires who like to mine in peace and don't even know how to fit a ratting Raven. Quote:* A stronger integration of 'carebear' and 'PvPer' will be forged in 0.0 alliances. As stated numerous times on the forums, today there is little need for miners/industrialist in the typical 0.0 alliance. However, with the removal of ice from Empire, alliances must balance the needs of industry with the needs of defense... hardly an unsupportable price tag to claim space as one's own. And remember: the ice belts in player-claimed space will be much safer than those in low-sec. This makes no sense. Miners and industralists mine things in 0.0 that aren't in highsec and produce things like capital ships that you can't produce in highsec. The good alliances already mine ice in 0.0, produce in 0.0, and defend 0.0.
Cat Molina Minmatar Psychotic Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.17 01:03:00 - [5] Edited by: Cat Molina on 17/11/2008 01:03:10 Why is it dumb? Care to elaborate?
ISpam OHHAYGUYS	Posted - 2008.11.17 01:05:00 - [6] PROTIP: Alliances already mine ice in 0.0
Cat Molina Minmatar Psychotic Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.17 01:10:00 - [7] Originally by: ISpam PROTIP: Alliances already mine ice in 0.0 So... then this might well weaken some of your adversaries, which would be good for you. Right? So would you support it?
Captain Hack Caldari The Eye.	Posted - 2008.11.17 01:11:00 - [8] i totaly agree specialy with all this JF and crap there is zero risk when moving it from empire *********************** ***********************
Darkeen Gallente	Posted - 2008.11.17 01:15:00 - [9] I agree, this is a Dumb idea. I mine ICE (not all day mind you - only sporadically) for the High Sec POS for the corp. Research pos's still need ICE and there are a lot of these! Regards, Jason Brisbane
Cat Molina Minmatar Psychotic Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.17 01:18:00 - [10] Originally by: Darkeen I mine ICE (not all day mind you - only sporadically) for the High Sec POS for the corp. Research pos's still need ICE and there are a lot of these! With the latest changes to Blockade Runners, would it not be possible to purchase and move the ice products from low-sec? I understand that there are POS's in highsec, but surely you don't suppose all the ice mined in Empire is consumed in Empire? Also, there are ice fields which are not easily accessible to pirates. The system Archee comes to mind, which is .4 but surrounded by high-sec on all sides, and has no stations.

Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.11.17 01:19:00 - [11] How about just boost ice output from 0.0 ice rocks by 300%? Then you can bring in ice from empire or you can mine it yourself and do it more efficiently. Also, high sec POS wouldn't be affected (I think high sec POS is an absurd idea, but it is in the game already, what can ya do)
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.11.17 01:21:00 - [12] Edited by: Mika Meroko on 17/11/2008 01:27:06 Dont try, no point... you cant make people do things when they got an log off button.... and yeah, leave the bears alone... they pay CCP more money anyways.... and they rarely complain as long as you leave them to their own devices... and yeah, in the 0.0, we got better ice.... better ore, and better everything. (caveat being, the alliance have to be in control...if you dont have control... stick to pirate npc space....) I say meh... alot of pointless work for CCP which results in **ing off alot of players and you wont get your pew pew (some just wont walk into places they dont like... I for one would never enter a ***bar for one... ) laid back and enjoy the division... and year, carebears doesnt make good slaves. ASCN and others shown that XD edit: as for the alliance bit... it just evolved naturally... survival for the "fittest" I guess... I mean, why dont the little guys all band up to take down the big guy? edit 2: you can NEVER hurt logistic too much unless you get rid of alts... 1 account per person, 1 char per account... cause yeah... we all know the major alliance have alts doing their work if necessary... edit 3: oh, and you cant get rid of macro miners... hell, they just find something else to do to lag up the systems... they ALWAYS adapt.... better than the players I say...
Cat Molina Minmatar Psychotic Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.17 01:24:00 - [13] Originally by: Vaal Erit How about just boost ice output from 0.0 ice rocks by 300%? Then you can bring in ice from empire or you can mine it yourself and do it more efficiently. Also, high sec POS wouldn't be affected (I think high sec POS is an absurd idea, but it is in the game already, what can ya do) As long as ice can be mined in relative safety in Empire, and safely jumped to 0.0, we end up with the current situation: no ability to attack logistics, POS-spam, low-sec without purpose, etc. Though removing ice from Empire would most certainly call for a redistribution of ice in low-sec and 0.0 so that established alliances are not starved.
Faife Noctiscion	Posted - 2008.11.17 01:29:00 - [14] Originally by: Cat Molina As long as ice can be mined in relative safety in Empire, and safely jumped to 0.0, we end up with the current situation: no ability to attack logistics, POS-spam, low-sec without purpose, etc. Though removing ice from Empire would most certainly call for a redistribution of ice in low-sec and 0.0 so that established alliances are not starved. they're dealing with POS spam by redoing POS mechanics. 2009. -- Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.11.17 01:32:00 - [15] Originally by: Faife Originally by: Cat Molina As long as ice can be mined in relative safety in Empire, and safely jumped to 0.0, we end up with the current situation: no ability to attack logistics, POS-spam, low-sec without purpose, etc. Though removing ice from Empire would most certainly call for a redistribution of ice in low-sec and 0.0 so that established alliances are not starved. they're dealing with POS spam by redoing POS mechanics. 2009. yeah, as far as I am concerned, CCP is on it... let them do their work and just enjoy the game... (I met someone today whos like.. hehe... popping veins trying to "redesign" eve... XD... but it doesnt sound like OP is doing the same.. ) Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Dear Abby	Posted - 2008.11.17 01:36:00 - [16] To sum up your post, Low sec needs a boost so move ice there to make ice miners targets for people? If your looking for more PVP in low sec try moving people with weapons on the ships there not miners. It would disrupt logistics for large alliances? not likely they have belts in their systems in 0.0 or ready access to logistics routes with low risk. It wont break up large alliances until there is a counter to the napfested-blobbage that is 0.0 and the moon minerals that fuel them. The problem you are trying to solve to many ice miners in Empire is not really a problem. If you can point out how it affects your gameplay, server health, community health, or even general gameplay I'd think about supporting changes. As it stands now it looks like the only thing your trying to accomplish is try and puch people to low sec - it wont work, the people that want to go or be there are. Those people that wont go there will not be forced they will change what they do or quit the game. If I missed your point show me where it was but as I read this it looks like your trying to push miners to low sec for things to shoot at.
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.17 01:38:00 - [17] You put all Empire Ice in LowSuck and you'll have Alliances moving down the pipe and locking down systems there. Whether that's good or bad is highly subjective. But I WOULD like to see Empire Ice macros die a harsh flaming death by any in-game mechanic.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.11.17 01:49:00 - [18] I think moving all high sec ice to low sec is a great idea. There are far too many resources in high sec as it is. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Cat Molina Minmatar Psychotic Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.17 01:53:00 - [19] Originally by: Dear Abby If I missed your point show me where it was but as I read this it looks like your trying to push miners to low sec for things to shoot at. If you check my stats on Battleclinic, you'll see I don't hit miners in low-sec. This is not fueled by "Hey, I wanna gank miners all day." In fact, I tend to leave ratters alone. (I'm the worst pirate ever. ) If these changes were put in place, I wouldn't even be in low-sec. I'd be in 0.0 fighting alliances there... because this change allows solo or small groups to have some effect on logistics. These changes would not 'force' miners to low-sec. If ice was removed today from Empire, these guys would just shift over to veld. However, the opportunity would exist for corporations to enter and secure the more empty low-sec system in order to make a profit. It's about accountability. You've already seen the replies this thread has gathered. Some are saying shipping ice products from Empire is dangerous in itself (it's actually not). Then, in their next paragraph, they say that all the good alliances already mine their own fuel in 0.0. Alliances in 0.0 simply suck away at Empire's teat all the while yelling Eve should be about "risk vs. reward". Their logistical chains are never threatened, because they cannot be attacked. Ask yourself again: do you think all that ice mined in Empire is consumed by Empire dwellers? This is why the subject hits such heavy opposition. Alliances in 0.0 do not wish to be bothered by mining their own fuel. It's so much easier to transport it from Empire. Hey... I've been there. I know the deal. I'm not just trying kick 0.0 alliances in the nuts, or stomp out the Empire POS holders, or get easy ganks in low-sec. But the benefits are listed in my first post. And I believe they outweigh the drawbacks.
Ris Dnalor Minmatar Ex Cruoris Libertas	Posted - 2008.11.17 01:53:00 - [20] this is a wonderful idea. I hope ccp thinks about this one before dismissing it out of hand.

EnslaverOfMinmatar Yarsk Hunters DeaDSpace Coalition	Posted - 2008.11.17 01:54:00 - [21] move all ice and all roids except veldspar to 0.0-0.4 uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ ƃuıpɐǝɹ ǝɹɐ noʎ
DreadedHunter Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.17 02:02:00 - [22] Originally by: Ris Dnalor this is a wonderful idea. I hope ccp thinks about this one before dismissing it out of hand. I however as a highsec POS owner hope they do dismiss it out of hand... If they allow highsec POSes then they need to allow them to be fuelled from highsec.
Opertone Caldari SIEGE. United Legion	Posted - 2008.11.17 02:08:00 - [23] prices will go up and supply will be scarce... ice systems will be hot spots... now 0.0 systems will supply empire with ice mining ships are not built for low sec, unless you change the nature of exploration and asteroid belts. to tackle macro miners you need to make belts exploration based, not static
Cat Molina Minmatar Psychotic Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.17 02:14:00 - [24] Originally by: Opertone prices will go up and supply will be scarce... ice systems will be hot spots... now 0.0 systems will supply empire with ice mining ships are not built for low sec, unless you change the nature of exploration and asteroid belts. to tackle macro miners you need to make belts exploration based, not static I'm not just trying to tackle the problem of macro-miners. It's just a side benefit. But, in all honesty, I can see a result of this change being 0.0 alliances which bring in corporations rife with macro-miners... with the purpose of using that output to fuel their own designs and/or sell off surplus to friends/Empire. The difference is, the macro's out there are vulnerable to attack.
Zaknussem Caldari Intrum Industria	Posted - 2008.11.17 02:16:00 - [25] If you remove Ice from Empire, you might as well remove POS's from Empire too. And by removing POS's from Empire, you would actually be forcing the Hi-Sec population into Lo-Sec...either that or forcing them to purchase Ice at exorbant prices. And the Hi-Sec crowd is more likely to quit playing EvE altogether than be forced to become targets for players like you. Also, I've recently come across a Hi-Sec system containing an Ice Belt and...4 other people in Local. Read that again. 4. This singular fact refutes the first point of your whole post. I would love to name the system, but I'm not stupid.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities	Posted - 2008.11.17 02:18:00 - [26] Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 17/11/2008 02:21:56 Originally by: Bellum Eternus I think moving all high sec ice to low sec is a great idea. There are far too many resources in high sec as it is. Not sure if it's a great idea, but definitely interesting. Guess it wouldn't hurt if 0.0 entities had to be a bit more self-sufficient and couldn't just buy all the stuff they need. Regarding the other sentence - let me rephrase: there are far too many ice-macrominers in high sec as it is. -edit- And I think there are too many POSes in high sec and too few (economical) wars. Almost everyone can afford a POS nowadays. R&D should require a bit more commitment. ___________________________________ Balance is power, ~~guard~~ hide it well "Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam"
Cat Molina Minmatar Psychotic Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.17 02:36:00 - [27] Edited by: Cat Molina on 17/11/2008 02:38:11 Originally by: Zaknussem If you remove Ice from Empire, you might as well remove POS's from Empire too. No. I think there would be a period of high prices before spill-over begins to catch up. And ice product prices would remain higher than they are today, but not unsupportable. (Note that I'm not economics expert and can hardly predict the future. These are just my opinions.) Originally by: Zaknussem And by removing POS's from Empire, you would actually be forcing the Hi-Sec population into Lo-Sec...either that or forcing them to purchase Ice at exorbant prices. I am aware of no rule which says you have to have a high-sec POS to stay in Empire. As mentioned above, prices may rise, but look how low they are recently. It cost very little to operate your own station these days. Originally by: Zaknussem And the Hi-Sec crowd is more likely to quit playing EvE altogether than be forced to become targets for players like you. As mentioned in a previous post; this idea is not some scheme to 'get me moar targets'. Originally by: Zaknussem Also, I've recently come across a Hi-Sec system containing an Ice Belt and...4 other people in Local. Read that again. 4. This singular fact refutes the first point of your whole post. I would love to name the system, but I'm not stupid. And the singular fact you'd not give out that system name shows your lesser-known ice-belt is the exception... not the rule. Care to stop by B**lille and count the Hulks/Macks? I can put together some stats for you if you'd like, from a variety of ice-belt systems. EDIT: Holy crap! B**lille is filtered? It's a star system in the game for god's sake.
Tharukan Desm'ar Gallente The Ninth Circle Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate	Posted - 2008.11.17 02:42:00 - [28] Edited by: Tharukan Desm''ar on 17/11/2008 02:44:27 Theres plenty of ice systems Ive used and know of that barely have over 5-10 people in them at once. The heavily used ones just tend to be on major highways or bordering near low sec space. While I agree that incentives for low sec could see a little boost i don't think this is the right way to go. If 0.0 and low sec were the only ice sources you'd actually be giving even more power to 0.0 alliances as they'd be able to force the price up of ice products at a whim whilst simultaneously keeping themselves supplied with their own ice belts. Is this something you intend or want to happen?
Haclya Caldari The Red Ring	Posted - 2008.11.17 02:45:00 - [29] get more ice in to low sec systems.
Boomershoot Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.11.17 02:46:00 - [30] Just remove every single belt. That will fix a lot of problems, mainly the macro-mining part. ofc, veldspar will still float around stations, planets and moons... ______________________________________________



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