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Removing Ice from Empire

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Tsotha lanti	Posted - 2008.11.17 02:52:00 - [31] I would personally say this is a terrible idea for several reasons. First of which, the large .0 alliances have no necessity to purchase ice products from empire, they do so out of convience when necessary. It is no more possible for your small fleet to disrupt a ice mining operation in .0 than it is for you to disrupt a heavily guarded convoy. The recent introduction of the jump freighter and the new changes to the blockade runner have made ice moving more a viability but not a necessity on the part of a large alliance. The main reason I am against this is because ice mining is terrible. It takes mind-numbingly forever and is unfortunately a necessity for anyone wanting to run a starbase or hold sovereignty. All aspects of pos-life are bad enough as it is without increasing the hassle/cost. The only people your suggested change would actually hurt are not the large alliances whose logistics you are trying to interrupt but the little guy trying to own his own starbase or make profit on its own. If you are trying to target macro's there are other ways of dealing with them. Hell, why not move all asteroids to low sec and .0 as well by your logic? Because the only people who would actually suffer from this are the little people that can't compete with those who have the blob numbers to control space and which would then be able to dictate whatever prices they want in effect destroying much of the economy and playerbase.
Cat Molina Minmatar Psychotic Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.17 02:52:00 - [32] Originally by: Tharukan Desm'ar Edited by: Tharukan Desm''ar on 17/11/2008 02:44:27 If 0.0 and low sec were the only ice sources you'd actually be giving even more power to 0.0 alliances as they'd be able to force the price up of ice products at a whim whilst simultaneously keeping themselves supplied with their own ice belts. Is this something you intend or want to happen? Those miners are vulnerable to attack. Both from independents and from rival alliances. In order to harvest the ice alliances must defend their space... they have something to protect. Unless drawn out/baited and killed, a single Rapier can hamper an alliances output... unless ships are brought to insta-pop him. This would be a mitigating factor on 0.0 alliances ruling the ice market.
Sakurako Kimino	Posted - 2008.11.17 02:55:00 - [33] while you at it why not remove manufactoring making it so that the 0.0 alliances have to move there bpos out to 0.0 and at the same time why don't we remove the ore belts as well btw i'm being sarcy. there are tons of none alliance corps in empire that use ice to fuel there poses
Haclya Caldari The Red Ring	Posted - 2008.11.17 03:08:00 - [34] all ice should be in 0.5 and lower make it easy to access ice in low sec is a good idea i think but remove it all for high sec will not solve the macro problem, the macro miners will only move normal belt and mine there.
Souvera Corvus Gallente SPORADIC MOVEMENT FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.11.17 03:08:00 - [35] Another idea designed to nerf high-sec thereby pushing people who don't particularly want to PvP into low-sec, creating more targets for bad pirates. It also assumes that the whole game revolves around 0.0 alliances and that its all CCP or anybody else is concerned about. Its all been said before albeit not quite as eloquently perhpaps. Think the 'nerf high-sec' bandwagon must be standing room only these days.
Cat Molina Minmatar Psychotic Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.17 03:28:00 - [36] Originally by: Tsotha lanti The main reason I am against this is because ice mining is terrible. It takes mind-numbingly forever and is unfortunately a necessity for anyone wanting to run a starbase or hold sovereignty. All aspects of pos-life are bad enough as it is without increasing the hassle/cost. That, I believe, is the first honest opposition to the idea that's been posted. Thank you. Let me sum up what all these posts (except for the Empire POS holders) are dancing around: "We, here in 0.0, don't want to mine. And we're damn sure not ready to sit in a belt defending the miners and ready to claw out our own eyes from boredom. And furthermore, even if we could stand mining, it would only take our enemies coming in with cloaking ships to disrupt our logistics. And I'm not having towers fall because some bastard likes to sit AFK cloaked all day on the ice field. We do not willingly put ourselves at a disadvantage in this game." There. Does that more accurately reflect the feelings of the 0.0 alliances on this subject? Please note in my first post that I did not feel it would be welcomed by 0.0 alliances. And the truth is... ice mining is a bore. No getting around it. Oh wait. Maybe it is far too easy to get around these days... especially for alliances who wish to claim vast expanses of space, but don't want their logistics threatened. Originally by: Sakurako Kimino while you at it why not remove manufactoring making it so that the 0.0 alliances have to move there bpos out to 0.0 and at the same time why don't we remove the ore belts as well btw i'm being sarcy. there are tons of none alliance corps in empire that use ice to fuel there poses Straw Man argument... but I'll play. I'd not remove ore belts from Empire, as I would not want to destroy the mining profession. Either the old-timers who love to mine, or the new characters who mine for their first ship. So that's a silly argument... ore must stay in Empire. Unlike ore, ice has little value to new players. We're not preventing a noob from jumping into his Navatis and mining ice... because he can't. And dedicated Empire miners are not left without a profession; ore still exists. However, Empire's use of ice products is comparatively small... while 0.0 life requires a great deal of them. And I doubt any can deny that it is far easier to alt-mine/buy the stuff in Empire, and then jump it out to 0.0, than it is to organize alliance/corp mining ops. And trying to get fighters to protect mining ops is like herding cats, right? They shouldn't have to go through that kind of a PITA just to claim sovereign space. Right? Not such a dark, harsh, cruel universe anymore... is it?
Cat Molina Minmatar Psychotic Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.17 03:38:00 - [37] Originally by: Souvera Corvus Another idea designed to nerf high-sec thereby pushing people who don't particularly want to PvP into low-sec, creating more targets for bad pirates. Nope. Read my replies above. Already addressed this. Originally by: Souvera Corvus It also assumes that the whole game revolves around 0.0 alliances and that its all CCP or anybody else is concerned about. These changes would have the opposite effect. Please see my first post. Originally by: Souvera Corvus Its all been said before albeit not quite as eloquently perhpaps. Thanks. Originally by: Souvera Corvus Think the 'nerf high-sec' bandwagon must be standing room only these days. Wouldn't know. I'm not on it.
Jason Edwards	Posted - 2008.11.17 03:40:00 - [38] Doing this would put such an insane level of stress on the entire system. Ice would immediately become incredibly expensive. The small time builders and such all are then forced to stations. As the fuel cost factored in means your product is far more expensive then those produced at stations. The small time alliances are hurt pretty badly. Fuel for their towers is very difficult to maintain. While bigtime alliances can lockdown 1 icefield and get loads of mackinaws going.
stupid flanders	Posted - 2008.11.17 03:43:00 - [39] Would only serve to give the big alliances more power and in the end raise the cost of everything.
Cat Molina Minmatar Psychotic Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.17 03:58:00 - [40] Edited by: Cat Molina on 17/11/2008 04:03:11 Originally by: stupid flanders Would only serve to give the big alliances more power and in the end raise the cost of everything. You mean "He who controls the ice, controls the Universe!!"? (Sorry... I had to do that. Someone would have eventually anyway.) Are you aware if these changes were in effect you could take a single ship, say a Rifter, and, with a bit of luck and skill, have a chance of striking a blow against the logistics of massive 0.0 alliance? That small gangs, unable now to do anything but irritate ratters, would have the ability to effect sovereignty at a grass-roots level? Is that making the 0.0 alliances more powerful? EDIT: And let's look at it from the perspective of the big-boys: BoB, how'd it go up North? How's the campaign progressing? Difficult to get past those damn cyno jammers, isn't it? What if the proposal I put in place was adapted a year ago? What if you could starve your enemy out using hit-and-run tactics? Force their POS's to go offline? What if you had another option other than taking out the jammer? NC and Goons, and all the others: What if these tactics were available for you? Would it have changed the outcome of The Great War? Yes, the proposal has drawbacks. But it also includes opportunities.

stupid flanders	Posted - 2008.11.17 04:14:00 - [41] If the ice suddenly became such a easy way to take them down odds are they would protect that first and foremost. I know I would.
Simetriz	Posted - 2008.11.17 04:15:00 - [42] FYI There are LOTS of high-sec research POS's and they are supported by high-sec ice. Secondly tons of Ice is mined in 0.0 Very little ice is mined in low-sec. Want to know why. Try mining just one month's worth of ice full a full tower and you will have your answer.
fityone cents Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.11.17 04:25:00 - [43] Originally by: Cat Molina Originally by: Opertone prices will go up and supply will be scarce... ice systems will be hot spots... now 0.0 systems will supply empire with ice mining ships are not built for low sec, unless you change the nature of exploration and asteroid belts. to tackle macro miners you need to make belts exploration based, not static I'm not just trying to tackle the problem of macro-miners. It's just a side benefit. But, in all honesty, I can see a result of this change being 0.0 alliances which bring in corporations rife with macro-miners... with the purpose of using that output to fuel their own designs and/or sell off surplus to friends/Empire. The difference is, the macro's out there are vulnerable to attack. No you are not addressing at all macrominers, more than one 0.0 alliance is/has/will have macro miners/ratters in it. they can be attacked but you have to beat them to the cloak - very hard or time consuming to do.
Cat Molina Minmatar Psychotic Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.17 04:28:00 - [44] Originally by: Simetriz There are LOTS of high-sec research POS's and they are supported by high-sec ice. Secondly tons of Ice is mined in 0.0 Very little ice is mined in low-sec. Want to know why. Try mining just one month's worth of ice full a full tower and you will have your answer. Heh. I live in low-sec, and believe I know that answer. And I agree. What if changes were made to the ice mining profession which made it a bit easier to endure/survive? The reasons for the limitations in ice mining was to balance it against ore harvesting; but if removed from Empire, those restrictions no longer need apply. Reduce the cycle time... improve the agility... that sort of thing? It shouldn't be easy, perfectly-safe money, but it shouldn't be suicide either.
Cat Molina Minmatar Psychotic Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.17 04:31:00 - [45] Originally by: fityone cents No you are not addressing at all macrominers, more than one 0.0 alliance is/has/will have macro miners/ratters in it. they can be attacked but you have to beat them to the cloak - very hard or time consuming to do. So get in system and cloak. When will they resume mining? Of course, if one does begin mining again, you could pop him. Or... he could be bait and have a friendly fleet sitting on the next gate. Never know...
ShardowRhino Caldari Legion 0f The Damned	Posted - 2008.11.17 04:36:00 - [46] Edited by: ShardowRhino on 17/11/2008 04:39:07 zzzzzz............... ......remove all tritanium from empire, super alliances will use it to build more bob titans...zzzzzzzzzzzzz......... .......end of discussion......zzzzzz.......please for your own sake don't try to counter my point, your efforts will be futile....zzzzzz....
Cat Molina Minmatar Psychotic Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.17 04:49:00 - [47] Originally by: ShardowRhino Edited by: ShardowRhino on 17/11/2008 04:39:07 zzzzzz............... ......remove all tritanium from empire, super alliances will use it to build more bob titans...zzzzzzzzzzzzz......... .......end of discussion......zzzzzz.......please for your own sake don't try to counter my point, your efforts will be futile....zzzzzz.... NO! Must resist.... ...must counter point.... must make answer... Nah. Rather go to bed for now. You made me sleepy.
ShardowRhino Caldari Legion 0f The Damned	Posted - 2008.11.17 05:10:00 - [48] Originally by: Cat Molina Originally by: ShardowRhino Edited by: ShardowRhino on 17/11/2008 04:39:07 zzzzzz............... ......remove all tritanium from empire, super alliances will use it to build more bob titans...zzzzzzzzzzzzz......... .......end of discussion......zzzzzz.......please for your own sake don't try to counter my point, your efforts will be futile....zzzzzz.... NO! Must resist.... ...must counter point.... must make answer... Nah. Rather go to bed for now. You made me sleepy. just returning the favor....zzzzzzz....
sableye principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.11.17 08:03:00 - [49] to be honest it might be good idea but don;t think or one second it would effect 0.0 allainces much all it would do is give us a new valuble resource at momant there is not alot of ice mined in 0.0 because its worthless to mine it (isk wise for time) but with this change you will probably make it better than ark :).
sableye principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.11.17 08:07:00 - [50] I also bet there is more ice prodcust used just to move ships around (jumping) than there is used in pos, not like I know though would be cool to see some numbers on whcih activity uses the most ice.

Mankirks Wife	Posted - 2008.11.17 09:43:00 - [51] I dislike macro miners as much as the next guy, but I'm rather fond of my cheap T2 stuff, I think I'd like to hold on to it.
NATASHA YAR	Posted - 2008.11.17 09:50:00 - [52] I fully support the OP Reason: The chaos that would ensue would be epic and enjoyable.
Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis	Posted - 2008.11.17 09:59:00 - [53] Does the OP by any chance have a MASSIVE ice stockpile It would be a neat change, but I'll admit I have practically nothing to do with ice products (no POSes, no capitals). If anything, I would suggest changing the amount of ice that can be mined. Ice cubes lasting 118 million years is a bit odd, to say the least. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Rellik B00n Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.11.17 10:12:00 - [54] dumbest idea ever. Q. Why do people do anything in hi-sec? A. because they dont feel they can/should risk their assets in low sec/null sec when they are perfectly happy where they are. Since they pay CCP the same subscription money you do what gives you the right to come in and ask for these sweeping changes? Thats right, you have ** all right. Take this back to features and ideas where it belongs. Oh wait you wouldnt do that because you know that no one will read it in there and it will disappear in with the other 10,000 ** ideas that people come up with everyday. If you keep on making it so casual players cannot play casually they will go and be casual players somewhere else.
Dibsi Dei Salamyhkaisten kilta	Posted - 2008.11.17 10:30:00 - [55] Supporting this idea, pos spamming would have consequences.
Shintai Gallente Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards	Posted - 2008.11.17 10:31:00 - [56] Another small skillless pirate that cant find targets in the overfished lowsec? The only way to fix lowsec is to fix the travel. As in gate and stations guns do concord dmg. -------------------------------------- Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2008.11.17 10:49:00 - [57] If you can somehow make ice mining not suck horrendously, I might support this. Most normal miners are bored to tears with mining Ice. Hell, even people I know who went straight from frig to barge (skipping Cruisers) are bored to death mining ice. This is not a mental state that inspires alertness, which is pretty much requirement #1 for surviving lowsec in a ship with the grace and agility of a tugboat and the toughness of a pinata.
RexZor	Posted - 2008.11.17 10:51:00 - [58] You ma'am are just plain trying to p1ss people off. What is said in this thread that 0.0 corps already mine their ice in systems in 0.0 . And have you ever compared low sec ice to high sec ice? The value of low sec ice is alot higher then ice mined in highsec. So yes some alliances buy stuff in highsec and transport it down to lowsec. And yes this reduces the risk for ganking (must be your hobby or something) And yes this probably fuels macro miners. But if you remove all ice in highsec you will get a monopoly of ice in lowsec, this meaning that the price of ice products will go up in empire, copy prices go up in empire, tech II components prices will go up in empire and many other things. This giving more isk to the Alliances in 0.0 / lowsec. So this will not hamper enemy logistics. It will just insure them of getting more isk which can be used to buy other stuff in empire. This topic has been discussed many times and i for 1 am glad CCP didn't remove the high sec ice belts. This game isn't all about 0.0 and big alliances. Some people have a small corp which just play this game for fun because of their limited time. Just my 0.02 isk
Cat Molina Minmatar Psychotic Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.17 14:38:00 - [59] Originally by: RexZor You ma'am are just plain trying to p1ss people off. Gah. No. I'm really not... thought it certainly seems I'm succeeding there. Amid the "move level 4's to low-sec" and "nerf gatecamps" crowds, this seems more a balance which won't destroy either side. And opens up new gameplay options. Originally by: RexZor So yes some alliances buy stuff in highsec and transport it down to lowsec. And yes this reduces the risk for ganking (must be your hobby or something) And yes this probably fuels macro miners. <sigh> As mentioned before, I don't care for helpless targets. Check my killboard stats. In fact I've never shot at a barge. Originally by: RexZor So this will not hamper enemy logistics. It will just insure them of getting more isk which can be used to buy other stuff in empire. But I would go to 0.0 to engage mining barges if I were able to effectively hamper a 0.0 alliance's logistics. Originally by: RexZor This topic has been discussed many times and i for 1 am glad CCP didn't remove the high sec ice belts. This game isn't all about 0.0 and big alliances. Some people have a small corp which just play this game for fun because of their limited time. As a 1-man corp (willing to take on 0.0 alliances solo), I understand that completely. Originally by: RexZor Just my 0.02 isk It is appreciated. Here's mine: I think things are currently unbalanced. I think many people value ease of play over challenge. And I think movement of the ice (or at least a great restriction of the ice in Empire) is the less disruptive option (better than ripping level 4's out of Empire, for example). But given the resistance, and relatively few replies who agree... hey, probably not something for Eve right now. So no worries. I'll let it drop. Thanks for the feedback.
Nobler Caldari Divine Power	Posted - 2008.11.17 15:06:00 - [60] I stopped reading after this line - "Therefore, I suggest removing all ice fields from Empire. Ice asteroids shall only exist in .4 security status systems and lower." I have an idea. Just cancel your accounts and give me your stuff. Problem solved.



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