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Tippia
Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.17 15:14:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Tippia on 17/11/2008 15:15:28 You want to enable interdiction of enemy logistics. You want to do this by moving ice to where the miners can be attacked.
The thing is, you can already interdict the supply chains by hitting those transports while on the move from high- to nullsec. You implicitly claim that this can't be done due to the escorts that follow the transport ships.
Guess what happens if you remove the high-sec belts and force the alliances to rely on in-sov mining? The mining ships will now get the same level escort and be just as (supposedly) impossible a target for your interdiction as the transports were.
So either you're right and we change the system, at which point nothing happens — you still can't hit your enemy where it hurts — or you're wrong and we don't change anything, at which point nothing happens — you can still attack the supply chain. Either way, your solution doesn't solve anything (and it's debatable whether there is a problem that actually needs to be solved to begin with). |
Angel Lightbringer
Caldari Dark Evolution Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.17 15:25:00 -
[62]
I think the logic fails when you assume ice mined in empire is used by alliances to fuel their 0.0 POS.
For the time I been in 0.0, ice was mined right there. GOON, BOB, TCF, others? They have enough space and manpower (miners/defense/scout) to mine all the ice they need without bother jumping it from secure empire space.
Is this call for medium-sized alliances? Low-sec PVP trollers?
There are, as well, more high-sec POS than you might think.
I am not for macroers, but I am not for having the good guys pay the price. My opinion, no. |
Vietone
Gallente Mercury Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.17 16:57:00 -
[63]
Your logic fails when you have to consider the mechanics of the game.
I see more often than not that people think resources should be moved into low sec or 0.0 sec. But what about the empire space? Why would empires bother taking space with no resources? Also, it would make new industrial characters useless unless they trained for exhumers ad mining barges are pathetic in anything but high sec and are still weak even in 0.5 space.
This game is suppose to be fun. It should be fun for anyone to play anywhere. Not fun for just the people who want to PvP in low or null sec.
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2008.11.17 17:05:00 -
[64]
If you want to remove ice from Empire as it's "safe of danger", then you might want to remove all ore while you're at it. Oh and don't forget missions, hell even NPC rats in asteroid belts, and maybe we should remove Jita and trading outside low sec too.
High sec = higher security/lower quality NPCing/higher frequency of NPC stations. That's it.
Nothing is safe, except sitting in a station and never undock. It might be sec status hit, it might give killrights, it might be that your opponent don't drop loot that is worth more than your suicide ship.. but saying Empire is "safe of danger" is nothing but male-cow-****. It's just a question of risk vs reward.
I know I will jihadkill people even if I lose isk and sec status in Empire. If I really want them dead, there and that. But I also know I won't be doing it frequently - which is exactly what high sec is about. It prevents people from abusing the system that allows you to kill people in highsec.
You can kill people in high sec. You can kill people in high sec. I wonder how many times this has to be said.
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Gamer4liff
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.17 17:05:00 -
[65]
I was going to post a parody thread "Removing Ore from Empire" but :effort:.
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Doddy
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.11.17 17:31:00 -
[66]
The only good thing i can see from your post is that it might make lo sec a bit more valuable (why there aren't corps controlling all the Dark Glitter belts already i do not know), and that it will make life a bit harder for macros. Other than that all it would do is make big alliances have 200 pos instead of 300 ....
An alliances logistics will not be hampered at all. They will still buy off the market (it'll be a bit more expensive i guess) and jump it out just like they do now. Half of them already mine ice themselves or have contracted corps to do it for them in 0.0, the others buy from market. The few that hi sec mine do it in npc corps or alt corps that you can't differentiate from anyone else anyway. I would guess the numbers actually doing this are fairly miniscule.
I don't know how, even with the changes you want, you would disrupt an alliances logistics. You have no way of knowing who they are buying the ice from, or who their alts are (in the unlikely event they mine in lo sec instead of nice, safe home 0.0 space), so who do you kill to effect your enemy? When i was in EXE in esoteria we had one alliance-wide ice-mining op every 2 weeks which fuelled all the towers for the next two weeks. It took maybe 4 hours of the miners time while the pvpers set up a camp to protect the them. More powerful alliance don't even need to do that, they hire out space to a miner corp who mines for them and buy it cheap, or get it as "rent".
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Princess Jodi
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.17 19:40:00 -
[67]
Bad idea:
1. Pvp'rs don't want to mine. Forced ops will destroy morale.
2. While some mine, many alliance do not. You're already bringing out Jump Freighters full of Moon Mins. You don't return empty - you fill with POS fuels.
3. Cloaked Viator can't carry even a week's worth of fuel for a large pos. Way too risky to be moving stuff that way.
4. Per hour, Ice mining is just above Veldspar. Why mine Ice when you can mine Ark and buy ice?
5. All the Empire POS's and Capital Ships still need fuel. You really want to be at the mercy of 0.0 alliances to get your fuel?
6. Let's say that your change happens. Do you really think that 0.0 Alliances will mine MORE ice than they need, move it to empire, and then sell it at a reasonable price?
I speak from 2+ years experience living 51 jumps from Jita in the Drone Regions. You had pristine Ice belts with the best ices, Ark-Bist-Crok that was never touched and systems that didn't load for entire days. We lived in such peace that seeing a Red in local was a big deal. And still, we COULD NOT GET PEOPLE TO MINE. Any empire ice mining corp we recruited would work for a month then realize that they could make more isk doing just about anything else out there. How you going to get it to happen? Slavery?
Stop trying to get people to play the way you want them to play. You want to shoot them in Hi-Sec, WarDec them or Suicide them.
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Princess Jodi
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.17 19:48:00 -
[68]
Here's another example of the economics: When we lost our space in Cobalt Edge, I put up all the POS fuels for TEN TIMES Empire price cuz they were too heavy to move out.
Guess what? They ALL sold. Now why would that happen if it was so easy to just go mine it?
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Eluhaf
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Posted - 2008.11.17 19:49:00 -
[69]
I fully support this suggestion. Or as an alternative could make it so that ice materials couldn't be jumped by any means (bridge, carrier, jump freighter, titan bridge, etc).
The benefits of 0.0 should come with the difficulties of operating on the frontier. Since carrier introduced easy logisitics to 0.0, its become a a numbers game which isn't fun unless you are one of the few alliance leaders that has the RL skill and huge time commitment to dedicate to the game.
The more mechanisms that discourage mega-alliances, and increase risk to reap rewards of 0.0 the better.
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Sally Bestonge
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.11.17 19:56:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Eluhaf I fully support this suggestion. Or as an alternative could make it so that ice materials couldn't be jumped by any means (bridge, carrier, jump freighter, titan bridge, etc).
The benefits of 0.0 should come with the difficulties of operating on the frontier. Since carrier introduced easy logisitics to 0.0, its become a a numbers game which isn't fun unless you are one of the few alliance leaders that has the RL skill and huge time commitment to dedicate to the game.
The more mechanisms that discourage mega-alliances, and increase risk to reap rewards of 0.0 the better.
is your brain broken or something? you know all capitals with jump drives run on ice by-products?
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Angel Lightbringer
Caldari Dark Evolution Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.17 20:01:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Sally Bestonge is your brain broken or something? you know all capitals with jump drives run on ice by-products?
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Boomershoot
Caldari Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.11.17 20:04:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Sally Bestonge
Originally by: Eluhaf I fully support this suggestion. Or as an alternative could make it so that ice materials couldn't be jumped by any means (bridge, carrier, jump freighter, titan bridge, etc).
The benefits of 0.0 should come with the difficulties of operating on the frontier. Since carrier introduced easy logisitics to 0.0, its become a a numbers game which isn't fun unless you are one of the few alliance leaders that has the RL skill and huge time commitment to dedicate to the game.
The more mechanisms that discourage mega-alliances, and increase risk to reap rewards of 0.0 the better.
is your brain broken or something? you know all capitals with jump drives run on ice by-products?
another stealth capital nerf got ruined :( |
Cailais
Amarr 0utbreak
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Posted - 2008.11.17 20:36:00 -
[73]
The OP is searching for a process where small scale operations can hit a equally small scale objective (in this case ice miners) and so cause damage to an Alliance or other .0 entity indirectly.
The theory is sound enough but it's not really feasible in the current environment of Empire POSes and Jump capable transports that make hitting logistic chains extremely difficult.
EVE does need some sort of small scale objectives (perhaps based around asteroid belts) that are vulnerable to small gangs and whose destruction would have an impact on Alliances. I'm not sure this proposal is it however.
C.
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Eluhaf
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Posted - 2008.11.17 20:50:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Sally Bestonge
Originally by: Eluhaf I fully support this suggestion. Or as an alternative could make it so that ice materials couldn't be jumped by any means (bridge, carrier, jump freighter, titan bridge, etc).
The benefits of 0.0 should come with the difficulties of operating on the frontier. Since carrier introduced easy logisitics to 0.0, its become a a numbers game which isn't fun unless you are one of the few alliance leaders that has the RL skill and huge time commitment to dedicate to the game.
The more mechanisms that discourage mega-alliances, and increase risk to reap rewards of 0.0 the better.
is your brain broken or something? you know all capitals with jump drives run on ice by-products?
then you would just need to make the POS run on different ice products then capitals. |
Doctor Penguin
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.17 21:44:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Doctor Penguin on 17/11/2008 21:49:35 OP, I'd strongly suggest going and posting this in the CSM forums. General Discussion is full of hyperbole and trolling discussion.
This idea has a heap of potential, but it should be discussed in an area that has people that genuinely know how the game works, rather than people who just mindlessly spam the forums all day.
EDIT: As a side comment, considering that Ice is used to fuel Structures which are held by a tiny minority of the player base, moving Ice out to Low-Sec/No-Sec would only impact a tiny amount of people directly, but would have a positive effect to Low-Sec (influx of people from High-Sec and No-Sec.)
I have this fun idea of Low-Sec ultimately being policed by the community - people won't stay if pirates are about, so pirates have to be very stealthy (read, have a really enjoyable time trying to evade the players who want to kill them) so they can warp in and blow up all the ice miners in an area for fun and profit! ________________________________________________
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Cat Molina
Minmatar Psychotic Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.17 22:35:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Cailais The OP is searching for a process where small scale operations can hit a equally small scale objective (in this case ice miners) and so cause damage to an Alliance or other .0 entity indirectly.
The theory is sound enough but it's not really feasible in the current environment of Empire POSes and Jump capable transports that make hitting logistic chains extremely difficult.
EVE does need some sort of small scale objectives (perhaps based around asteroid belts) that are vulnerable to small gangs and whose destruction would have an impact on Alliances. I'm not sure this proposal is it however.
C.
^^This. Yes.
Doctor Penguin is right. This thread doesn't belong here. My bad... asking for it to be moved to a relevant section.
Thank you for all the replies.
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ShardowRhino
Caldari Legion 0f The Damned
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Posted - 2008.11.18 02:38:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Nobler I stopped reading after this line - "Therefore, I suggest removing all ice fields from Empire. Ice asteroids shall only exist in .4 security status systems and lower."
I have an idea. Just cancel your accounts and give me your stuff. Problem solved.
To be honest thats just about all I really needed to see. I think i read a bit more about how 0.0 alliances don't mine their own ice.
The entire idea is summed up in 2 sentences. The rest of the thread had absolutely no potential to justify such a change.
We should remove something in empire because an alliance uses it? If thats the case then lets move all veldspar and such out to 0.0 so we can make 0.0 alliances mine that for themselves. ALso since we are at it, lets ensure that the vast majority of EVE players are at the mercy of alliances to truck in tritanium so that the rest of us can build shuttles at 100X normal price.
CCP breaks up the moon mineral monopoly therefore we MUST give 0.0 alliances a new monopoly!
THe op clearly has NOT been to a single moon in empire. Nor has the OP shown evidence of ever mining 0.0 ice since there is no way to compare empire ice to what you find out in 0.0. Its equal in comparison to 0.8 rats and 0.0 rats.
Let me demonstrate how ludicrous this thread is by offering another proposition that runs alongside the one offered by the OP.
" We should move all of the tasty 0.0 rats, the 1mil+ triple spawns and mind numbing mineral rich drones to 1.0 space. I suggest this idea because it would make 0.0 alliances work for their isk by giving them the 15k frig rats instead. By doing such we would open up several new play styles!"
the fact that this thread went on AFTER my last post should blow one's mind. how the OP continues his attempt to back such an ill constructed idea is beyond me... |
ShardowRhino
Caldari Legion 0f The Damned
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Posted - 2008.11.18 03:08:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Doctor Penguin Edited by: Doctor Penguin on 17/11/2008 21:49:35 OP, I'd strongly suggest going and posting this in the CSM forums. General Discussion is full of hyperbole and trolling discussion.
This idea has a heap of potential, but it should be discussed in an area that has people that genuinely know how the game works, rather than people who just mindlessly spam the forums all day.
EDIT: As a side comment, considering that Ice is used to fuel Structures which are held by a tiny minority of the player base, moving Ice out to Low-Sec/No-Sec would only impact a tiny amount of people directly, but would have a positive effect to Low-Sec (influx of people from High-Sec and No-Sec.)
I have this fun idea of Low-Sec ultimately being policed by the community - people won't stay if pirates are about, so pirates have to be very stealthy (read, have a really enjoyable time trying to evade the players who want to kill them) so they can warp in and blow up all the ice miners in an area for fun and profit!
oh man this is rich. Its a lot like having a big fat, tasty turkey on thanksgiving and someone just handed me the big ass knife to cut this bird apart. SO let me begin...
Suggesting that this thread be moved to an area where it will be taken serious is a joke. The idea is seriously flawed from the start. No matter how much you or the OP try to dress it up, no one that has any real experience in EVE is going to take it seriously, much less be attracted to the idea.
Please move it to any other area of the forum so it can be mocked and ripped apart as it so justly deserves. The idea is so flawed that it is in no way possible to say it is hyperbole to compare the OP's idea to moving veldspar out to low sec because 0.0 alliance will go to jita and buy it up.
I would say a good portion of player corps in empire have at least 1 pos. The longer the corp has been operating, regardless of size, the higher the chance of that corp owning at least 1 pos for various reasons. I am sure CCP could confirm a boom in empire POSes since the release of Invention. I do not doubt that the numbers will only increase now with the addition of Alchemy.
How would moving empire ice out to lowsec really create something that can and has already existed out there? Players can already choose to band together to defend low sec areas from pirates. They would gain access to even better ice then in empire(uh the OP does know theres ice in low sec already, right??). They get better belt rats(ccp could improve them) and better Ore. Not to forget better exploration sites.
Moving crap empire ice out to lowsec or 0.0 is going to make people want to go out there and get it. Better ice is already out there sitting there, waiting to be harvested. Yet the potential for increased profits isn't enough to lure the empire ice miners out.
IF CCP were to say get drunk, snort a lot of "boosters" and took up the sport of running head first into brick walls, they might actually think the OPs idea is worth the time. So if CCP did all we would see is these empire iceminers go to veldspar. Then what? Where do you go from there?
0.0 ice > Lowsec ice > empire Ice. Last time I checked, scordite beat empire ice hands down. I'm rather sure the above is true as I have mined in empire,lowsec,0.0. I have mined Ice in empire,lowsec and 0.0.
If you guys are really into the idea of players protecting lowsec for miners, by all means call out a low sec system and start your project there. Trust me, it will succeed far sooner then CCP moves the pos empire ice out to lowsec and i dont mean "player operated structure".
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Haclya
Caldari The Red Ring
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Posted - 2008.11.18 03:32:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Haclya on 18/11/2008 03:34:37 Make one alliance 1 care bear corp and one pirate corp sounds fun the pirates will get alot of kills when they gate camping the system and the care bear corp will make isk. |
Driven
Caldari Mass Produced Venturi Starea
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Posted - 2008.11.18 03:46:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Driven on 18/11/2008 03:49:10
Originally by: Doctor Penguin Edited by: Doctor Penguin on 17/11/2008 21:49:35 OP, I'd strongly suggest going and posting this in the CSM forums. General Discussion is full of hyperbole and trolling discussion.
This idea has a heap of potential.....!
Yeah to destroy peoples ability to maintain their frikkin POSes without playing the game 24/7.
I strongly suggest this post be moved to a section of the forums where no one ever goes.......ever. |
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Dirtee Girl
Omega Enterprises 0mega Factor
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Posted - 2008.11.18 03:47:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Princess Jodi Here's another example of the economics: When we lost our space in Cobalt Edge, I put up all the POS fuels for TEN TIMES Empire price cuz they were too heavy to move out.
Guess what? They ALL sold. Now why would that happen if it was so easy to just go mine it?
yeah i wuz lazy |
ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2008.11.18 03:54:00 -
[82]
agreed. |
Tatianna
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Posted - 2008.11.18 05:41:00 -
[83]
Yeah.....right. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.11.18 07:11:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Cat Molina
Originally by: Dear Abby If I missed your point show me where it was but as I read this it looks like your trying to push miners to low sec for things to shoot at.
If you check my stats on Battleclinic, you'll see I don't hit miners in low-sec. This is not fueled by "Hey, I wanna gank miners all day." In fact, I tend to leave ratters alone. (I'm the worst pirate ever. )
You don't kill miners in low sec simply because they don't exist.
I don't know if you are simply ignorant, but I dubt it, so I giving a counter offer to you: I will accept this dumb idea only if every time you fire on a player you will be incapable to warp for 10 minutes. That is the base cycle time to get ice. cutting it short will get you no ice.
Staying in the same location in low sec for 10 minutes with an almost defenseless ship or losing all the work you have done is extra dumb.
You could have missed it but it is not possible to lock a low sec system for security like it can be done in 0.0.
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Cat Molina
Minmatar Psychotic Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.18 08:05:00 -
[85]
Jesus, some of you people are rude beyond measure. Your parents raise you that way?
If you don't like the idea... that's perfectly fine. I feel it would solve some existing problems (and never said there weren't drawbacks). It was submitted to GD to see what the general consensus was. You offered feedback, and I believe I even thanked you for it.
Stop getting so enraged over someone proposing an idea. If the idea is as flawed as you say it is, then CCP will obviously see that.
Relax.
Given the e-rage here, I've already said I'd drop it. You're the ones keeping the thread alive. |
Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.18 08:20:00 -
[86]
To the OP: Points to remember:
Removal of ice from highsec means a lot of highsec POS will be dramatically affected. Remember that this is only a small part of the resources needed unless you've found a way to mine Robotics etc from the ice too.
Attempting to move resources from one place to another to make the latter more lucrative doesn't work. There isn't much reward from Clear Icicle already and the cycle time makes it even less attractive financially. Moving said ice to lowsec means you devalue the ice even further since, out of the profits, you have to pay for protection and any losses etc. To make lowsec more lucrative, you need to increase the rewards to make losses and such more bearable, not transfer the already meagre rewards from highsec to it. By your reasoning, we could just as easily make the whole of Empire lowsec except 1.0 for noobs only and ban any player over x experience points from 1.0. Whether you remove anyhting of value from highsec or make everything up to 1.0 lowsec, the end result is the same - A mass exodus of players from Eve.
It's been tried over and over again to get players to move into lowsec but in the end, it's a matter of safety v profit. You are safer in 0.0 than you are in lowsec and 0.0 pays better. For those who want to just play for a while occasionally rather than be relied upon to defend the region, there's highsec. Why the hell would anyone want to go into lowsec? The risk is the greatest in the game and the rewards suck in lowsec.
Removing all the ice from highsec would just be one more nail in Eve's coffin for a lot of highsec dwellers. It's a relaxing way to spend your game play and still do something for the corp at the same time. No worrying about gankers, watching scanners or wondering if that character who's just jumped into the system is a pirate or not. No necessity to align, hover the mouse over the warp button or worry that you might have forgotten to fit something that will allow you to get away quickly.
Work on a way to get rid of macros and we'll all be happier. Start mesing with the economy of casual players and you'll only **** off a lot of people.
-- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again |
Necrosmith
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.11.18 08:29:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Luigi Thirty This is dumb.
Why not declare war on your enemy to disrupt his logistics? ---- For those of you who claim to support the troops and oppose national health care, I have a question. Why do you insist on punishing our veterans with free health care? |
Burnhard Brutor
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Posted - 2008.11.18 08:39:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Necrosmith
Originally by: Luigi Thirty This is dumb.
Why not declare war on your enemy to disrupt his logistics?
Err, I think this guy has a brain.
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