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WisdomLikeSilence
The Hooded Claw
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Posted - 2008.11.21 18:58:00 -
[1]
I wonder does anyone know the stats?
Like how many client downloads theres been etc?
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DreadedHunter
Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.22 00:14:00 -
[2]
Id guess 4, maybe 5. |
Qordel
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.11.22 06:10:00 -
[3]
Well, since osx and linux users tend to be around 10% combined in the general population, it would be safe to extrapolate that at least 25,000 players are on osx or linux. Since EVE tends to attract a more technical and geeky group, I would not be surprised if the number of osx/linux users was slightly higher than the general population, too.
Relying on downloads would be useless as the pitiful state of both osx and linux clients has lead to many Windows downloads for use via a VM or bootcamp.
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Ami Nia
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.22 17:36:00 -
[4]
The home population tends to have much higher users on Mac and Linux than the overall population: - corporate and offices tend to have mostly Windows as clients, with some Mac and very few Linux. But they may have Linux or other unix based OSs for servers. - both linux as client and OsX are more common at homes than in offices. - the laptop population (especially non corporate) is going through a huge spike of mac deployment lately: I've seen penetration estimates of above 50% of portable sales being macs!
While the above is true in general, the gamers population (especially hard core gamers) is generally more windows friendly than the general non corporate population. This may actually offset things back to windows.
OTOH the geek population is more linux (and recently also mac) oriented. And EvE is a game that is attractive to geeks. So this would swing things back again.
IMO without some solid data from CCP it is very hard to know where the EVE population is.
But there's one thing that interests me much more than the data about unix&mac penetration among EvE players, and that is the Mac penetration among CCP employees (especially devs and even more especially dev bosses). And regarding this I really really liked what I've seen in some of the fanfest videos.
Military experts call it a Templar, a fighter drone used by Amarr carriers. -- Sheriff Jones
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.11.22 20:36:00 -
[5]
Take heart fellow Mac/Linux users/gurus/geeks/nerds/anti-microshaft peeps.
There are more of us out there than you think.
I've been playing EVE Online on windows for some time now.. but I also own a pair of macs... a Mac Mini and an G4 iBook which just got replaced with a Macbook Pro 15' (brand spanking new holy crap this is sweet) laptop.
I tried crossover out... didn't work too well.. well.. not to playable standards... unless you like invisible stations and ships.
I plan to tinker and tweak to get this to work.. and when I do.. I'll drop the details here.
But for kicks and giggles I downloaded the Mac Client.... loads in less than 5 seconds as opposed to the 1 to 2 min load time on windows. (WTH?!)
No premium... but you know what? It's faster... smoother and honestly I would prefer to play eve full time on my mac... and not win"blows".
Far less virus/spyware crap to worry about... better performance... and I got a better GPU (well 2 of im) than I do on my tower....
The OS-X 10.5 system is just that much better.
The only problem is... people will pick the windows one over the mac one because of the lack of... you guesed it.. Premium content.
Once that gets fixed... you'll see things shift.
I use both now.... depending on my current location.
^_^
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Qordel
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.11.23 00:20:00 -
[6]
The use of OSX among CCP devs isn't really that surprising. You'll find a massive number of us developers in the tech industry favor OSX for personal and/or business use. For example, at Sun - we do not use Windows. And there are no Solaris laptops (yet). So what do we use? The majority use some reasonable laptop like a Thinkpad with our favorite linux distro or we use a Mac.
OSX isn't the Mac of the past. The ignorant idea that it is somehow a fisher price operating system is passe. While you can game more on Windows, you can do significant development with a much wider variety and strength of tools on OSX (unless you're doing Windows-specific development, of course).
OSX, through its reliability and fantastic streamlined interface, allows an odd mix of complete neophyte and hardcore guru to make the most of the system and what lies beneath. That's also a reason that some of us contribute to an extensive OSX/Linux cross-over (or OSX/*nix - period).
I am more surprised when I talk to a developer who is NOT linux, unix or osx based (at the very least, in their personal choices if not corporate).
Additionally, Windows may have the corporate reach at the lower levels, you will find that higher up the chain it is very often OSX again. Developers, managers, executives, designers, product managers, marketing, legal. Very heavy OSX penetration.
The same geeks and nerds who gravitate toward Linux and OSX gravitate toward EVE more than other populations would gravitate toward it. That is an anecdotal statement, but I think it has significant founding. While a lot of them may be heavy gamers, that doesn't mean they game on Windows. A lot may be like me - trading in hard core PC gaming for consoles and then enjoying our systems of choice on the desktop/laptop. Therefore, not relegated to Windows by necessity. And even if we have Windows, we may prefer non-premium on OSX to anything on Windows. Or we may have many systems and simply enjoy EVE on OSX as an aside (especially when traveling with our powerbooks/macbooks/mbps).
At any rate, the overall general OS distribution tends to be about 10% linux/osx and I still posit that it is somewhat greater among the geek/dev/eve community. Perhaps not the gaming community as a whole, but in a game like this - certainly.
Unfortunately, I don't think any stats from CCP would be useful because they would count people like me as Windows instead of OSX, because I run EVE via an XP instance inside of OSX. I'm not sure if they can do a fingerprint with nmap or something to discern that it is *really* an OSX outter wrapper around the VM or if it would still just appear as Windows to them, but since I doubt they would/could do an nmap or something similar against every connecting user... the stats would be irrelevant.
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rogue5
Quatidion Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2008.11.23 03:27:00 -
[7]
I am a Mac user and i hate having to revert to windows just to play a game. I have been using the Eve Mac client for a while and i love it. It needs some work still, but over all it's working fine for me except for the patch today that has broken my modules readout, but over all the client works great for me. Proud Member of Xanadu and the Fountain Alliance
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Ami Nia
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.23 09:44:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Qordel The use of OSX among CCP devs isn't really that surprising.
I was not surprised by the fact that there are Mac users among them. But by thinks like openly admitting that the devs would love to use OpenGL.
Originally by: Qordel The same geeks and nerds who gravitate toward Linux and OSX gravitate toward EVE more than other populations would gravitate toward it.
Probably. But saying that there are more OsX/Linux users that play EvE than there are that play some other game does not imply that EvE playerbase is heavily OsX/Linux oriented (even if I hope it to be so and that CCP notices it).
Originally by: Qordel And even if we have Windows, we may prefer non-premium on OSX to anything on Windows. Or we may have many systems and simply enjoy EVE on OSX as an aside (especially when traveling with our powerbooks/macbooks/mbps).
I know I'm a minority, but with regard to Premium graphics I don't care. Classic graphics are more graphics than I need. And I do not care for any framerate above the 20sh. In my WoW times I was grateful to Blizzard that they added an option to limit framerates on Macs (dunno why they did, maybe because having 100+ frames per second was deemed too much). I had set my limit to 25.
Originally by: Qordel Unfortunately, I don't think any stats from CCP would be useful because they would count people like me as Windows instead of OSX, because I run EVE via an XP instance inside of OSX. I'm not sure if they can do a fingerprint with nmap or something to discern that it is *really* an OSX outter wrapper around the VM or if it would still just appear as Windows to them, but since I doubt they would/could do an nmap or something similar against every connecting user... the stats would be irrelevant.
If they do stats by the servers, they can get number of downloads at patch/expansion time. They can also compare the number of hits to the web served motd the client does on startup (on all platforms) and the hits to the web served cedega/cider versioning info (only done by linux/mac clients respectively) that is also done by the client at startup.
If they wanted to know what hardware (not what OS) the client was run upon, they could not use nmap: nmap is going to tell you the OS fingerprint, not the hardware. However the client could just query the MAC address of a local NIC and send it over to the server. The number of people that have put non apple NICs in their machines is practically zero.
Military experts call it a Templar, a fighter drone used by Amarr carriers. -- Sheriff Jones
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Qordel
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.11.23 09:52:00 -
[9]
I'm not sure I understand how this changes how they'd be able to discern if a client is really running on a mac or not. There may be a call to an HTTP page or other connections which would otherwise allow them to discern the OS the user is running on, but if I'm running EVE in a virtual machine on OSX (which usually have their own MAC separate from the system) then I am relatively certain it will appear as the guest OS and not the host OS that it is running on.
And then you still have the group who may run OSX *and* Windows with EVE out of necessity but would prefer OSX only if it were more stable. So those extra Windows downloads or connections will further imbalance the count (since for each OSX user that does that, they are also counting as a Windows user).
Once they have a more stable and acceptable client that people *want* to use, I'm sure the numbers will be more reliable as people won't be "forced" to seek alternatives to simply running the Mac version directly on OSX.
Really, though, it woudl be great to see some stats somewhere on the front page or elsewhere that show things like user OS base. Geographic region, etc. We're dorks. We love stuff like that. If we didn't, we wouldn't be playing EVE :)
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Ami Nia
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.23 10:27:00 -
[10]
Bootcamped windows would be seen as running on a Mac NIC. Transgaming can expose the actual NIC MAC address in both cedega and cider if they want to (I do not know if they do already, but it would not be too difficult). Transgaming could also just use it as an optional header in the HTTP request they make to check for the current cedega/cider version, therefore collecting that data even outside the EvE client.
Virtual machines are a little problem. Depending on how they are configured you may have access to the actual NIC MAC address or you may be behind a virtualized NATted LAN with the physical NIC being the internet egress node and being actually one hop away from the client. You will not be able to know what hardware the virtual machine is running upon. You probably would be able to tell that you are on a virtual machine, however, as the MACs used by those are most certainly well known (yes: the user can change them. But we are not going to go after machiavelli here).
Clients that run on cedega/cider count as non-Windows. Clients that run straight on Windows but have an Apple MAC in the NIC count as non-Windows. Clients that run straight on Windows but have a MAC that is among the ones used by default by a virtual environment count as non-windows. The rest count as Windows.
Not perfect. Counts as windows all people that changed their VM MAC address and counts as non-windows any windows user that runs a VM hosted under windows. Of course they also miss people that have a Mac but keep a Windows PC around only for gaming. But it still gives a pretty accurate picture, don't you think?
If they want to know, they can.
However I think they are probably more interested in trends than in accurate values. And that is something they can easily evaluate from the downloads and server statistics (like the web server log exposing user agents).
Military experts call it a Templar, a fighter drone used by Amarr carriers. -- Sheriff Jones
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.11.24 02:04:00 -
[11]
The comments about developers going linux/OS-X are very true.
Those who program in the world of Windows are likely Stockholm Syndrome mindsets.
its a quick and dirty world.....and while it works..prone to major problems.
Real programmers are linux based at a minimum... none of this windows crap.
Problem is... the gaming industry still reigns in Windows...... for now....
I hope they release a premium graphics content for the mac clients soon... id love to switch over. I'm tired of the instabilities I face with windows.
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arbiter reformed
Minmatar Systematic Chaos.
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Posted - 2008.11.24 09:47:00 -
[12]
with the horrors of vista and the growing number(if not all) ceative computer users (film editors, desighners etc) now using mac, its becoming apparent that windows is losing its iron grip on the computer world.
mac has tapped into both that world and also that of people who want no fuss computing, its easy to setup and generally run osx than vista or any windows based os. for this reson i think the number of mac users shall grow in the eve universe, therefore good forward thinking by ccp imo
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.11.25 19:35:00 -
[13]
Yeah... except if CCP dosen't get off there ass (no offnese to CCP o7) they are going to miss the train by miles.
Things are shifting rapidly in the industry... they should get it done...and done very soon... and that's a fact.
If I where them Id spend less time on new stuff and more time getting there linux/mac playerbase caught up to the current level of windows.
I guarantee you that they will make a crapton of cash as a result.
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Shin Chogan
Gallente Blueprint Haus Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.11.26 11:40:00 -
[14]
Originally by: arbiter reformed with the horrors of vista and the growing number(if not all) ceative computer users (film editors, desighners etc) now using mac, its becoming apparent that windows is losing its iron grip on the computer world.
mac has tapped into both that world and also that of people who want no fuss computing, its easy to setup and generally run osx than vista or any windows based os. for this reson i think the number of mac users shall grow in the eve universe, therefore good forward thinking by ccp imo
In the UK at least it is also the academic environment, not only are the students (read probably the biggest market for games) getting Mac's in droves but the research staff and lecturers etc are as well.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.11.26 17:35:00 -
[15]
The main reason for that is quite obvious...
1: It won't crash on you unexpectedly. 2: It won't get infected within 3 minutes out of the box 3: IT JUST WORKS!
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Shin Chogan
Gallente Blueprint Haus Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.11.26 19:12:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Shin Chogan on 26/11/2008 19:14:25
Originally by: Drake Draconis The main reason for that is quite obvious...
1: It won't crash on you unexpectedly. 2: It won't get infected within 3 minutes out of the box 3: IT JUST WORKS!
While in principle it Mac OS X is better than Windows, people seriously need to stop drinking the koolade.
1. It can crash on you unexpectedly just no where near as often - I think I've had 3 crashes in the last year of ownership spread over my Macbook Pro and my Mac Pro 2. Can't argue there but the more people use Mac's and the more the risk of trojans etc will grow and Apple can be bad at patching security holes. 3. This is blatently false. It is far better than windows BUT my scanner doesn't work without paying for VueScan, my headset didn't work since there is no mic level input on any Mac, some programs insist on printing a large page over 4 sheets when I tick the "scale to fit page" option, and I've got a NAS that I mount using autoFS that works seamlessly on my Macbook Pro but requires me to go into the directory twice on my Mac Pro if it isn't already mounted.
4. The hardware quality leaves a lot to be desired ... I do support for my University ... in the last 9 months I've had to get repairs done on 3 Macbooks (one repeatedly which resulted in Apple giving us a new replacement, which was DOA !), 2 Macbook Pro's and an iMac.
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Manada
Amarr Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.26 22:15:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Shin Chogan
1. It can crash on you unexpectedly just no where near as often - I think I've had 3 crashes in the last year of ownership spread over my Macbook Pro and my Mac Pro
Kinda true. Crashed twice in last month
Quote:
2. Can't argue there but the more people use Mac's and the more the risk of trojans etc will grow and Apple can be bad at patching security holes.
Well, unless people are stupid enough to use Linux/Mac under root/ administrator account, situation is far from danger.
Quote:
3. .... my headset didn't work since there is no mic level input on any Mac, .....
Preferences --> Sound ---> Input Tab (unless you use Optical digital-in port)
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Shin Chogan
Gallente Blueprint Haus Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.11.27 08:06:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Manada
Quote:
2. Can't argue there but the more people use Mac's and the more the risk of trojans etc will grow and Apple can be bad at patching security holes.
Well, unless people are stupid enough to use Linux/Mac under root/ administrator account, situation is far from danger.
It took apple about 3 months to patch the security flaw in ARD which allowed any user to execute any program as root, and about a month longer than Linux and Windows to patch the recent DNS flaw. So the danger is very real ... All OS's have security flaws but the biggest one is the users that get socially engineered into running programs that contain things that exploit these security flaws, especially the ones that think that because they are running a Mac they are safe.
Quote:
3. .... my headset didn't work since there is no mic level input on any Mac, .....
Preferences --> Sound ---> Input Tab (unless you use Optical digital-in port)
Nope ... the inputs on the intel Mac Pro's, Macbook, and Macbook Pro are line level not Mic level ... this means that if you have a microphone that ends in a 3.5mm jack, like my old headset, you need a powered pre-amp for it to work. Solution is simple, use a USB headset ... but to claim it "Just Works" is clearly a false hood. It "Just Works" in a number of ways but then again so does Windows, it depends on what you are asking of it.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.11.29 16:11:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 29/11/2008 16:17:03 /facepalm
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Anji Centauri
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Posted - 2008.11.30 18:05:00 -
[20]
There's a lot more than you think. I'm on Mac, as is my husband, and all of our friends (I guess we tend to cluster together...sing songs and dance around the fire). But I think I am the only one who cruises the boards and even I don't post much (or ever).
But I think it is important to keep developing the client for Mac, something other companies fail to do.
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Jaybe
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Posted - 2008.12.04 15:45:00 -
[21]
I've been a PC gamer (and programmer) for a long time but recently bought an iMac because I'm fed up of Vista. I have to say I love it, and I've not turned the PC on in a week. I never thought I'd say that.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.12.05 23:59:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Jaybe I've been a PC gamer (and programmer) for a long time but recently bought an iMac because I'm fed up of Vista. I have to say I love it, and I've not turned the PC on in a week. I never thought I'd say that.
/this
/winnar
Try fixing them for a living... you will learn real quick that fixing Mac's is a cakewalk... unless you get someone stupid.... that happens to.
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Cerebella
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Posted - 2008.12.06 16:46:00 -
[23]
Very unhappy Mac using pirate, reporting in.
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