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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.11.25 23:35:00 -
[31]
Because you want to optimise your solo gameplay to a point where it takes no other people and a lot less effort. When others reply with 'that's part of the whole idea of teamwork' you go 'but I want to solo mine'.
You refuse to (want to) understand that logistics and other things that are part of the whole process should be just that, part of the wholke process. You want things easy, because that means it can be done solo.
Things shouldn't be easy, they should require effort and teamwork. Things done solo should NOT be as optimised/worthwile as doing things in a group. Once you allow for that it becomes a solo game, which it shouldn't be.
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Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.25 23:44:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Dantes Revenge on 25/11/2008 23:46:25
Originally by: kongking wang now i may be wrong here but isnt this post about a can. not about changing eve into a solo game.i dont know where u getting all this from
Ignore the troll, he's got a problem with solo players and using it as an excuse because he has no other valid reason to use against this idea.
I've already said how this can be used for teamwork. I'll repeat in case he missed it, "small player corp consisting mostly of newer players". I've already said that there are a lot of solo players in this game including myself who can get the best of both worlds because we can be part of a team when we want to be or play solo when nobody else in our corp is online.
Originally by: Tzar'rim Once you allow for that it becomes a solo game, which it shouldn't be.
Most of the time. However there are times that I've noted above when solo play is the only thing available. -- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again |
Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.11.25 23:50:00 -
[33]
When I started out I was happy to do the hauling in a tier 1 hauler, it may not have been optimal but I did my part. If you have a group of young players you should not have a shortage of haulers.
And yes solo play should possible, but it should not be optimised to a point where it's preferable over teamplay.
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kongking wang
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Posted - 2008.11.25 23:52:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Tzar'rim Because you want to optimise your solo gameplay to a point where it takes no other people and a lot less effort. When others reply with 'that's part of the whole idea of teamwork' you go 'but I want to solo mine'.
You refuse to (want to) understand that logistics and other things that are part of the whole process should be just that, part of the wholke process. You want things easy, because that means it can be done solo.
Things shouldn't be easy, they should require effort and teamwork. Things done solo should NOT be as optimised/worthwile as doing things in a group. Once you allow for that it becomes a solo game, which it shouldn't be.
Quote:
ok so what you saying is i should only ever mine when i got someone to help me. im sure that would go down well with my corp,
"oh u cant do a corp op today cos i need the hauler to haul for me"
i never said i mine solo all the time. if you read my last large post it states i mine for my corp regulary. i have to mine by myself to make my own money and the same goes for the rest of my corp. i cannot ask them to stop what they doing to help me.
mmorpg doesnt mean you have to play coop, it means you can
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.11.25 23:57:00 -
[35]
yup, but do you agree to the following?
- if solo gameplay gets optimised to a point where it's more worthwhile than grouping up it promotes solo gameplay.
As stated, there's something really wrong with missionrunning, I'm not saying they should be moved to low sec or anything but they simply should not be as profitable as they are while being soloable.
I play solo a lot as well but I completely understand (and agree) with the fact that thus my options are less and that it tskes more effort to get things done. Because if it didn't there would be no reason to teamwork.
If I PVP solo I run into the problem that I have no scout and that means I don't know what's going to happen. This means I'm at a disadvantage, sometimes I hate it and sometimes I like it.
If I produce something on my alt I have to haul the minerals and goods because it's a solo alt in NPC corp. While I'm not happy with the fact that it takes a lot of effort and certainly isn't optimised in any way I agree to it since it was my choice to do it solo.
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kongking wang
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Posted - 2008.11.26 00:11:00 -
[36]
ok your just not getting it are you.
1 - working in a grp is always more effective than working alone. we not debating that.
2 - you not always guarenteed to have someone to help you, which forces me to solo mine.
3 - i could hire help from a strainger but what stops them from stealing all my ore.
4 - jet cans are an easy target by high sec pirates. with jet cans i could solo with so what difference would it make to the game if i had a can half a jet cans size but is secure. wouldnt change the way the game is played at all.
5 - if people are so worryed it might make the game turn solo( i think not)then make them a corp only asset. only available to the corp and deployable by the designated corp member.means ur indy guy can haul it later when u are offline.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.11.26 00:14:00 -
[37]
Who forces you to jetcan if you're solo? You could fly back and forth, you could use a secure can which (on purpose) is annoyingly small. "But that takes more effort and slows down my mining!". Yes, that's the whole point.... it should.
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kongking wang
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Posted - 2008.11.26 00:22:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Tzar'rim Who forces you to jetcan if you're solo? You could fly back and forth, you could use a secure can which (on purpose) is annoyingly small. "But that takes more effort and slows down my mining!". Yes, that's the whole point.... it should.
ok in a retriever its quicker to mine 1 cylce and fly the ship bk and drop the ore and return. you dont see fighters fly out kill a ship and return to base and repeat do you.
a builder gets the option to build everything then haul it. a fighter gets to kill everything then clean up later. a miner should get the same choice, to mine everything then return to pick it all up later.
but thats not what we asking for, all we ask for is a larger can, to make things run a bit smoother. we not asking ccp to change the game to make it prefare solo players
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.11.26 00:35:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 26/11/2008 00:37:56 ok so;
1 doing it solo is annoying, would you have more people would make it easier. 2 you want to solo at times, thus you want solo mining to be made easier thus severely limiting the need to group
You can not escape that, I'm not neccesarily saying that you don't want to group up, but if made easier people in general would.
I have no problem with you soloing, I have no problem with me soloing but I understand that in order to try and keep this game as much of a group/MMO thing solo play must suffer because of it. Would I like getting 27 kills in my solo ship per night? Yeah, would be cool for a while. Thing is ofcourse that after a while the kills mean less because they're so abundant.
You gain NOTHING from encouraging/optimising solo gameplay in an MMO as that would immediately mean that the produce of that solo effort gets worth less. Can you understand that? If everyone can solo mine a lot easier then minerals become cheaper as there's more supply, so you gain NOTHING! Actually since easier gameplay is more suited for AFK/macro control it means that you get even MORE competition.
The more difficult it is to produce something the less competition you'll have (certainly from macro crap) and the more profit you'll make on it. The hauling is part of the added value, would you make the hauling easier your produce would be worth less.
Stop AFK/zombie/macro gameplay, encourage teamplay and allow for solo play while being less optimised.
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kongking wang
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Posted - 2008.11.26 01:03:00 -
[40]
1 can is not gonna change the way the game is played so stop being so unconstructive
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.11.26 01:06:00 -
[41]
I would, because if it didn't CCP would have given you a bigger can instead of an Orca.
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kongking wang
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Posted - 2008.11.26 01:14:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Tzar'rim I would, because if it didn't CCP would have given you a bigger can instead of an Orca.
ok let me see, spend a year getting the ore together for isk to buy an orca which i dont want or get a bigger can letting me mine twice as much and get what i want in half the time
what is your problem you just want to bring down everyones ideas or just to have the last say
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Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.26 01:53:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Tzar'rim yup, but do you agree to the following?
- if solo gameplay gets optimised to a point where it's more worthwhile than grouping up it promotes solo gameplay.
No, it helps players who sometimes have to play solo and gives someone just starting out a better start but teamwork has and will always be preferable in Eve.
Quote: As stated, there's something really wrong with missionrunning, I'm not saying they should be moved to low sec or anything but they simply should not be as profitable as they are while being soloable.
But on the other hand, it's okay to be 20x more profitable solo ratting in nullsec? And don't say risk v reward because when you're behind your alliances gatecamp, you're pretty much as safe as in highsec.
Quote: If I produce something on my alt I have to haul the minerals and goods because it's a solo alt in NPC corp. While I'm not happy with the fact that it takes a lot of effort and certainly isn't optimised in any way I agree to it since it was my choice to do it solo.
But I already explained that. The bigger can won't haul it back to the station for you and that's a time sink in itself. Once you've filled the can, you have to then haul it back to the station since you're solo and don't have a team mate to haul it for you. Therefore it still takes the same time to mine it and haul it as it would now. All that is being asked is that we don't have to constantly switch from mining to hauling and back.
Now imagine this: CCP makes it a rule that anyone travelling alone has to dock, switch to a shuttle, warp and jump through the next gate, jump back and then warp back to the station before they can fly their ship to the next system. Would it make you annoyed? I know damn well it would.
As a miner, I have to do just that. Mine a small amount, switch to a hauler, get the can and take it back to the station before I can continue mining. All we are asking is that we can stay in one ship for a while longer before having to switch. Instead of mining for 20 minutes and switch, we mine for an hour and switch. We still have 3 trips to make back and forth to the station to haul it so there's practically no time gained there apart from the 30 seconds saved before we can change ships. Oh horror, I've gained 3 whole minutes per hour that way, it's really going to make solo mining more worthwhile than team mining.
Industrialists have had the raw end of the stick for a long time now while PVPers have had it laid on a plate for them, cut into bite sized chunks and held up to their mouths for the taking. A PVP patch gives several new ships, the "industrial" patch gave us just one that takes months for a new player to get into and a bit of hype to do with Exhumers that really didn't amount to a great deal. Especially since the Skiff always had the 2 point stab anyway but with only one turret, it still makes it practically a toy - A 3 turret covetor costs less and gets 100% insurance payout so it's far more profitable for lowsec mining than a skiff anyway, neither one can tank the NPC rats.
Why is it that when an industrial character makes a suggestion for their trade, the PVPers are always the ones that hammer it when they haven't even taken the time to calculate that it wouldn't really affect the industrialists profits at all? Jeez, mining is boring enough without making it tedious as well.
-- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again |
Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.11.26 07:34:00 -
[44]
Solo ratting doesn't make idiotic amounts of cash, besides the 'safety' you talk about is paid for in blood,sweat and tears by the people defending that space, putting op POSes, defenses, NAPSs and constant policing. And it STILL isn't safe cause if there's a roaming gang and you don't pay attention you'll still lose your ship.
Your point?
The idea is that solo mining is difficult ON PURPOSE! if you're old enough to fill a can really fast you're old enough to have some teamwork going, or be restricted when soloing. If you're young you DON'T fill a can that easily. If you're relatively young and so focussed on mining that you CAN mine like on crack perhaps it's time to diversify?
Perhaps it's CCP trying to tell you "hey, this is a PVP MMO. If you want to solely focus on PVE solo content then we're not gonna make it too easy for you". Did that occur to you?
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Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.26 11:09:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Tzar'rim Solo ratting doesn't make idiotic amounts of cash, besides the 'safety' you talk about is paid for in blood,sweat and tears by the people defending that space, putting op POSes, defenses, NAPSs and constant policing. And it STILL isn't safe cause if there's a roaming gang and you don't pay attention you'll still lose your ship.
Your point?
My point is that I've been playing this game long enough that I know what can and can't be earned and where. If you can't make 2 or 3 times as much solo ratting in 0.0 as you can from solo mining in highsec or even lowsec then you're doing it really wrong. As for safety in 0.0, have you actually been there?
Quote: The idea is that solo mining is difficult ON PURPOSE! if you're old enough to fill a can really fast you're old enough to have some teamwork going, or be restricted when soloing. If you're young you DON'T fill a can that easily. If you're relatively young and so focussed on mining that you CAN mine like on crack perhaps it's time to diversify?
So now you want to tell me how to enjoy a game? I get my own enjoyment in the way I see fit, I don't feel it necessary that I should tell you to go mining to enjoy your gameplay better. Remember, each to their own. Diversity of player types is the reason Eve has survived for so long. If everyone was solely PVP combat minded, who would mine the ore or build the ships you blow up so regularly?
Mining is what I do, I find it relaxing and yet I can still contribute to the corp in my own way, even when nobody else is around to help. After all the stress at work, I want to wind down in that way rather than get stressed out even more trying not to lose a ship to some PVP combat junkie. Combat has never been my forte, I suck at it even though I've played Eve for 4 years.
Quote: Perhaps it's CCP trying to tell you "hey, this is a PVP MMO. If you want to solely focus on PVE solo content then we're not gonna make it too easy for you". Did that occur to you?
And maybe this thread is the players way of saying "Hey we can't always be online at the same time as our corpmates due to TZ differences and work/wife/kids etc. Why are you penalising us for playing anyway rather than just logging when nobody else is online?" Seriously, if I had to log too many times because there were no other corp members online, after a few times, I'd log permanently and not bother to re-sub.
My shifts change from time to time, I can't keep changing corp so that I'm always online at the same time as all the others in my corp. I like the guys in my own corp, I trust them and get on well with them. Why would I want to go somewhere else and start over with players I don't know if I can trust, don't know if they'll be there to cover my ass when things get sticky or don't know if they won't try to scam me out of everything I have?
I'm afraid your last statement is way off course anyway. The main reason for mining being made difficult was due to macro miners and nothing to do with solo play at all. Hopefully, the last patch that gave us the Orca is a start in the right direction. I hope that CCP realise they been giving us the shaft over a few bad guys for far too long and have now decided to put things right.
CCP has always supported solo play as well as co-op play. They had to because piracy is pretty much a solo career in most cases. After spending enough time in lowsec, I saw that there are a few pirate corps but most pirates in lowsec are solo players, in fact, the most feared ones are solo players. CCP also realise that there are times when you are going to be forced to play solo when nobody else in your corp is online. Just look at the Marauder. Bonus to tractor beam range and velocity, 3 spare non-turret/launcher slots for things like tractor beams and salvagers etc, double the DPS for each of the remaining turrets and a larger cargo bay. If that isn't a gift to the solo mission runners, I don't know what is.
-- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again |
kongking wang
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Posted - 2008.11.26 12:22:00 -
[46]
eve is about doing what you want,when you want ,howether you want weather its in a group or solo. i totally agree with the above statement
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.11.26 13:33:00 -
[47]
CCP isn't interested in your changing shifts, nor am I. You want stuff made easy so you can solo mine as optimised as doing it in a group without needing any more effort.
Hey, I normally fly a Hurricane and a corpie of mine flies a Falcon but he's not always online, that's not fair to me if he's not online. I want to be able to do the exact same thing solo as when my corpie is online. Thus I propose a new ship, make it have the same tanking, dps, speed, sig size and other characteristics as a Hurricane but ALSO make it have the same ECM power as the falcon and I want to have the covert cloak as well.
I'm sure ret@rds will look at this idea and go "wow, that'd be COOL" and vote for it, wouldn't they. Would you?
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kongking wang
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Posted - 2008.11.26 13:39:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Tzar'rim CCP isn't interested in your changing shifts, nor am I. You want stuff made easy so you can solo mine as optimised as doing it in a group without needing any more effort.
Hey, I normally fly a Hurricane and a corpie of mine flies a Falcon but he's not always online, that's not fair to me if he's not online. I want to be able to do the exact same thing solo as when my corpie is online. Thus I propose a new ship, make it have the same tanking, dps, speed, sig size and other characteristics as a Hurricane but ALSO make it have the same ECM power as the falcon and I want to have the covert cloak as well.
I'm sure ret@rds will look at this idea and go "wow, that'd be COOL" and vote for it, wouldn't they. Would you?
Quote:
we want bigger can
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.11.26 14:03:00 -
[49]
Would you vote for that Hurricane/Falcon combo?
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Galthatar Arctook
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Posted - 2008.11.26 15:23:00 -
[50]
So the arguuements so far seem to be:
Want a larger secure in space storage option (my hulk gets roughly 4500m3 in a cycle which means a GSC is pointless for me so I get this one) Orca requires another player and sometimes I want to solo Builders/fighters (PvE in particular) can do a whole lot of one task then come clean up - Builders this is secure on a station (until you get to Titans or the like at POS in 0.0) and fighters at a risk of nija salvagers who must first scan you down. Eve is a team game so play it as a team (as soon as I get into a fleet and boost there is a 10% yeild benifit for me and the other members)
Allowing a solo player to serurly mine in high sec does not reduce the usefulness of an orca (with my minimal skills if there were 3 hulks in a fleet I could end up better off piloting the orca than my hulk as far as yeild/min is concerned ie team play is worthwhile). What it does do is reduce the impact of greifers. I can understand that some people in the game want to be pirates and steal from other players, thats fine I'll fill a jetcan an invite you to come and steal from it in your hauler which would be able to carry enough, its likely to die. when someone brings a shuttle to flip your can and just leaves it in space so they can get attack rights on you is different. So if the current system continues where a can flip is not 'corded or security loss inducing (and belts don't need to be scanned out like a mission looter would need to do) I think there is a valid arguement a larger secure storage option to allow parity.
Change the belts to need to be scanned, the security loss possibilities for can flippers or call in a 'cord response and that 'eliminates' the 'need' for a larger secure option.
Galth
PS - I disagree with the choice to be a pirate but accept it as a viable option, I fail to comprehend people who are simply greifers.
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Cyberman Mastermind
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Posted - 2008.11.26 20:02:00 -
[51]
(I didn't read the entire thread.)
Originally by: Tzar'rim - if solo gameplay gets optimised to a point where it's more worthwhile than grouping up it promotes solo gameplay.
That is already the case with mining. Mining is best done solo or in groups of 4 or more persons. Two persons mining is next to useless, the only benefit is the gang bonus and that hardly is worth it, if you ask me. Multiplayer game or not, you can't just expect every player to have 3 other persons around all the time. We're close to playing Alt-Online, but not that close I hope...
If you want to encourage multiplayer playing, try bribing people instead of flogging them.
Random idea: a huge container that can only be used/anchored/whatever when in group mode. Or a module(though not a gang-link, as that would make it useless) that increases cargo of a specific container. |
FarosWarrior
Amarr Sonnema
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Posted - 2008.11.26 20:23:00 -
[52]
for you knows sake, get a hulk with cargo expanders and expander rigs 17.000m¦ give or take a few m¦
no need for bigger GSC's or whatnot
Cheers, Faros
*WARNING* SIG ALERT *WARNING*
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kongking wang
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Posted - 2008.11.26 20:41:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind (I didn't read the entire thread.)
Originally by: Tzar'rim - if solo gameplay gets optimised to a point where it's more worthwhile than grouping up it promotes solo gameplay.
That is already the case with mining. Mining is best done solo or in groups of 4 or more persons. Two persons mining is next to useless, the only benefit is the gang bonus and that hardly is worth it, if you ask me. Multiplayer game or not, you can't just expect every player to have 3 other persons around all the time. We're close to playing Alt-Online, but not that close I hope...
If you want to encourage multiplayer playing, try bribing people instead of flogging them.
Random idea: a huge container that can only be used/anchored/whatever when in group mode. Or a module(though not a gang-link, as that would make it useless) that increases cargo of a specific container.
make it a corp only asset then soloers cannit use them unless they are in a player corp. corp has a designated anchoror already so give him the ability to buy these larger cans and deploy them.
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Cyberman Mastermind
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Posted - 2008.11.27 11:56:00 -
[54]
Originally by: FarosWarrior for you knows sake, get a hulk with cargo expanders and expander rigs 17.000m¦ give or take a few m¦
Aside from the multiple disadvantages, wouldn't that encourage solo afk-mining even more? You sure this is the direction mining should go? Everyone expanding their hulk and going AFK? |
Rilwar
BlackStar Industrial
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Posted - 2008.11.27 21:47:00 -
[55]
Originally by: kongking wang
make it a corp only asset then soloers cannit use them unless they are in a player corp. corp has a designated anchoror already so give him the ability to buy these larger cans and deploy them.
Except that's the silliest way to try to restrict usage of an item anyway. I play solo.... with my own 6 man corp. So it would be absurdly easy for me to just have an alt drop the can, hence solo players just got a larger can with no drawbacks. ------------------------------------------ FTW \o/ |
kongking wang
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Posted - 2008.11.28 01:32:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Rilwar
Originally by: kongking wang
make it a corp only asset then soloers cannit use them unless they are in a player corp. corp has a designated anchoror already so give him the ability to buy these larger cans and deploy them.
Except that's the silliest way to try to restrict usage of an item anyway. I play solo.... with my own 6 man corp. So it would be absurdly easy for me to just have an alt drop the can, hence solo players just got a larger can with no drawbacks.
ok so your solo in your own corp. you have paid for that right to use a corp and all it features, but why use a bigger can when you can use your alt in a industrial saving you time. the whole point of the bigger can is for people who dont have alts or corp members to help them at that time allowing them to save time or atleast manage it better.
making it a corp asset would reduce the ammount of soloers using them. are people seriousely gonna spend millions on a corp(im not sure on actual setup fees) and paying millions for larger containers when they could just join a corp therefore putting more soloers into corps.
it goes like this:
go solo and use gsc - fully indipendant to do what you want.
join a corp and get the use of containers 5/10 times bigger - mostly independant. may be required to contribut in some way.
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smartx
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Posted - 2008.11.28 21:42:00 -
[57]
i believe this is a VERY good idea. and i actualy think we should have a LOT of more sizes anyway! as in a size of like 5k 10 k 15 k 30k 75k and then an ultra big 150k which costs like 200 million and can only be anchored in 0.0 for 0.0 mining operations by corps who dont have orca's or industrials....(now im looking back at my post i actualy think we dont need the 150 k... ah well)
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kongking wang
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Posted - 2008.11.29 01:42:00 -
[58]
Originally by: smartx i believe this is a VERY good idea. and i actualy think we should have a LOT of more sizes anyway! as in a size of like 5k 10 k 15 k 30k 75k and then an ultra big 150k which costs like 200 million and can only be anchored in 0.0 for 0.0 mining operations by corps who dont have orca's or industrials....(now im looking back at my post i actualy think we dont need the 150 k... ah well)
i wouldnt say make them that big. double or even triple the size of the current gsc would be fine and it could be priced at 10/20 mil. maybe even double that. putting it out of the range of new starts. like i said making it a corp asset and making it high price would put it out of range of most soloers.
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David Grogan
Gallente Crusaders of the Darkstar Warp to Desktop
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Posted - 2008.11.29 11:49:00 -
[59]
Edited by: David Grogan on 29/11/2008 11:51:12 well my corp/alliance consist mainly of pvp'ers who spend most of their time in 0.0 and rarely come into high sec.
im a noob with 3 acs (all noobs) i cannot pvp yet as my skills are way too low and even attempting would be a waste of isk.
I mine in a retriever so 0.0 mining is still not something i can do yet cos retrievers have no tanking ability against 0.0 rats.
Im tired of noob bullies can flipping me cos they are too cowardly to go out to 0.0 and fight players of their own skill level.
I would like super sized secure containers so i can mine in peace and yet store a hauler load in one can. a limit to 1 super sized can per player per high sec belt could be set to prevent players from filling up a belt with these.
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EuReKa NaPalm
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Posted - 2008.11.29 18:54:00 -
[60]
OK for Bigger containers but Secure container must be able to be probed
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