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Ling Zai Minmatar Zaitech	Posted - 2008.11.24 14:50:00 - [1] Edited by: Ling Zai on 24/11/2008 14:52:57 Edited by: Ling Zai on 24/11/2008 14:52:34 I am a T2 producer and I come to the market community for some general advice. When we first started producing we were selling direct from our production, ie. Jita and Tash. This worked in the main but lead to some limitations with regards capacity. ie. we couldnt sell it quick enough to support increased production. We looked at several ways of increasing our sales and as a result set up a team of resellers across empire, we now sell in all the major hubs and some 0.0 gateways, producing a substantial income which is reinvested directly into increasing production. We have found that we are now reaching a bottleneck in the system. Our production has increased greatly and we are now finding we have surplus stocks of all of our current lines, regardless of our efforts to sell through the traditional market place in all empire regions. I believe there are two simple solutions to this problem, the first being an increase in personel selling & managing our sell orders (playing the 1isk game for example) The second being the setting up of links with external T2 resellers. I would like to focus on both, however I have limited experience of the latter, which brings me here. What would the demand be for a service which sells bulk T2 at a discount to Jita? What kind of discount would be approriate, in order for us to move forward and for the potential clients to make a profit? Have any of you had personal experience of the above and could offer some insight, do's and dont's etc. I await your advice with intrest. Currently Producing 100MN MicroWarpdrive II 1400mm Howitzer II 425mm Railgun II 75mm Gatling Rail II Absolution Acolyte II Armor EM Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Berserker II Claw Curse Damage Control II Deimos Dual Light Pulse Laser II ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II Flycatcher Heavy Capacitor Booster II Heavy Electron Blaster II Heretic Hobgoblin II Hornet II Infiltrator II Ishtar Jaguar Lachesis Large Energy Transfer Array II Malediction Medium Capacitor Battery II Medium Energy Neutralizer II Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Medium Energy Transfer Array II Medium Nosferatu II Medium Shield Extender II Mega Beam Laser II Miner II Modulated Deep Core Strip Miner II Purifier Praetor II Reactor Control Unit II Rocket Launcher II Small Capacitor Battery II Small Energy Transfer Array II Standard Missile Launcher II Stiletto Tracking Disruptor II Warrior II Zealot
Dragonz Fire The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.11.24 15:03:00 - [2] I build t2 mods. But I only specialize in about 3 mods, make 200 of them a day and sell in Jita. The mods I make sell within an hour. You probably build much more than 200mods a day though =/. I am sure you can make friends with a few 0.0 alliances and take your stock out there and sell stuff. PvP items that go poof sell very fast in 0.0 :). However, if you keep all those areas stocked and you still have a growing inventory, selling in bulk may be the way to go. If you make an offer on your discount let me know, maybe I would be interested.
Ricdics Tleilex Developments	Posted - 2008.11.24 15:08:00 - [3] Invention or do you own the bpo's?
Isk Ho Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.24 15:13:00 - [4] I'd be interested in a mutually beneficial trading relationship. I currently trade in Jita, so if you would be interested in me being your "0.01 cannon fodder" there I would love to talk with you. I find a trust based agreement has worked for me in the past, with fair agreed profit sharing rather than either party ripping the other one off. I try to hit a volume service, where the amount gets shifted without the supplier ending up with less than they could have got dumping off to buy orders. Hit me up ingame if you want to discuss this. xx Your signature is too large - Mitnal Last night a mod ate my sig, last night a mod ate my sig - now i've a broken heart
Ling Zai Minmatar Zaitech	Posted - 2008.11.24 15:15:00 - [5] Originally by: Ricdics Invention or do you own the bpo's? These are bpo produced. We have a invention arm but it doesnt really lead to much profit :(
Ling Zai Minmatar Zaitech	Posted - 2008.11.24 15:18:00 - [6] Originally by: Isk Ho I'd be interested in a mutually beneficial trading relationship. I currently trade in Jita, so if you would be interested in me being your "0.01 cannon fodder" there I would love to talk with you. I find a trust based agreement has worked for me in the past, with fair agreed profit sharing rather than either party ripping the other one off. I try to hit a volume service, where the amount gets shifted without the supplier ending up with less than they could have got dumping off to buy orders. Hit me up ingame if you want to discuss this. xx thanks isk ho, im going to let this thread run a bit then hit everyone up that offers to help (competition for the win!)
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.11.24 18:41:00 - [7] Originally by: Ricdics Invention or do you own the bpo's? Silly question - a large number of those cannot be invented at a profit, even by the 'my datacores are free and therefore it costs me nothing to use them' brigade. --- Can't afford that BPO? Look here. 20:1 mineral compression The EVE f@h team
Ling Zai Minmatar Zaitech	Posted - 2008.11.24 23:02:00 - [8] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Originally by: Ricdics Invention or do you own the bpo's? Silly question - a large number of those cannot be invented at a profit, even by the 'my datacores are free and therefore it costs me nothing to use them' brigade. True True, so anyone feel this kind of service would be popular? There must be some traders out there that could turn a profit?
Dragonz Fire The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.11.24 23:21:00 - [9] Originally by: Ling Zai Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Originally by: Ricdics Invention or do you own the bpo's? Silly question - a large number of those cannot be invented at a profit, even by the 'my datacores are free and therefore it costs me nothing to use them' brigade. True True, so anyone feel this kind of service would be popular? There must be some traders out there that could turn a profit? i think so, i'm interested :)
Ricdics Tleilex Developments	Posted - 2008.11.24 23:27:00 - [10] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Originally by: Ricdics Invention or do you own the bpo's? Silly question - a large number of those cannot be invented at a profit, even by the 'my datacores are free and therefore it costs me nothing to use them' brigade. Not really, plenty of people produce at almost zero profit via invention. But it is important to know whether the guy is inventing or t2 bpo owner as that drastically determines the kinds of wholesale prices he can offer for t2 reseller chains around Eve.
Ling Zai Minmatar Zaitech	Posted - 2008.11.25 00:51:00 - [11] Originally by: Ricdics Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Originally by: Ricdics Invention or do you own the bpo's? Silly question - a large number of those cannot be invented at a profit, even by the 'my datacores are free and therefore it costs me nothing to use them' brigade. Not really, plenty of people produce at almost zero profit via invention. But it is important to know whether the guy is inventing or t2 bpo owner as that drastically determines the kinds of wholesale prices he can offer for t2 reseller chains around Eve. I answered already! :D
Ricdics Tleilex Developments	Posted - 2008.11.25 00:57:00 - [12] I was responding to Kazuo you clown
Ling Zai Minmatar Zaitech	Posted - 2008.11.25 01:14:00 - [13] Originally by: Ricdics I was responding to Kazuo you clown that will teach me for not reading my own thread :D
Rapture454	Posted - 2008.11.25 12:59:00 - [14] Originally by: Ling Zai True True, so anyone feel this kind of service would be popular? There must be some traders out there that could turn a profit? I would be interested. If you decide to start selling in bulk to resellers, send me a mail and let me know what kind of prices and bulk amounts you are looking to sell.
Drakkar Saarith Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.25 13:12:00 - [15] There are several option available to you. If you intent to go for a random reseller just offer a fixed margin depending on production cost and Jita buy and sell orders. To elaborate, Say a product of yours has a production cost of 14mill isk, highest buy order is 16 mill and lowest sell 18mill on average. You could then offer a fixed price of production cost plus 3mill. Seeing as Jita is a rather fast responding market the buy and sell prices there should move quickly with production cost. Alternatively you could just agree to a price that is always halfway between buy and sell orders at each time, this however opens the doors to some price manipulation attempts ( putting up low sell orders just before you agree on this week prices ). However, if the production cost is higher than the highest buy order you can offer the average price between production cost and sell orders as a fixed margin or just set a price each week, see above. As to demand, have you tried talking to some of the big alliances about a mutual trade agreement? For example, you offer them T2 for less than market value and they offer you T2 materials for less. Seeing as you have a impressive array of T2 this is something that should interest some of the moon holding alliances. Transport could be through a fixed/variable point in empire space. Also I would vary the discount a little bit depending on saleability (is that a word?) of you products, volume and numbers of module types involved.
Kane Turner	Posted - 2008.11.25 13:13:00 - [16] Yeah, I would be interested also ;] Give me a shout if you decide to start smth like this :)
Ramirez Betelgueze Gallente Hommes et Femmes	Posted - 2008.11.25 13:29:00 - [17] I'm a trader as well, currently based in Jita-Dodixie-Rens with trader-chars at each station. I startet a thread where I'm looking for T2-producers that want to sell bulk and so on.. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=929637 BUT: If you are just one other of these "3%margin is enough" guys, we can't come to a trade I guess (There seem to be too much people forgetting about tax and brokerage and that I need some play for other traders or panicing producers dropping prices).. but if you are intrested in a serious trade-partnership, let's discuss possibilities.
Ling Zai Minmatar Zaitech	Posted - 2008.11.25 15:01:00 - [18] Thanks for the responses so far guys. My initial thoughts are to offer a ranged discount dependant on popularity of items. Something like Jita average less 10%-20% (20% being the slower movers) Would that be enough for resellers to take a punt?
Lord Zarcam Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2008.11.25 15:23:00 - [19] Although I'm still building my trading business, I would be interested in buying wholesale direct from someone. As long as the minimum order numbers aren't too high to begin with, I'm still small time compared to many here. All I buy and sell are T-2 items.
Kane Turner	Posted - 2008.11.25 15:49:00 - [20] Originally by: Ling Zai Thanks for the responses so far guys. My initial thoughts are to offer a ranged discount dependant on popularity of items. Something like Jita average less 10%-20% (20% being the slower movers) Would that be enough for resellers to take a punt? Sounds good :)
Ling Zai Minmatar Zaitech	Posted - 2008.11.25 16:09:00 - [21] Originally by: Lord Zarcam Although I'm still building my trading business, I would be interested in buying wholesale direct from someone. As long as the minimum order numbers aren't too high to begin with, I'm still small time compared to many here. All I buy and sell are T-2 items. thats a good point zarcam, what would be a sensible minimum? I was thinking 500m as a minimum order... too high?
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.11.25 16:16:00 - [22] Originally by: Ling Zai Edited by: Ling Zai on 24/11/2008 14:52:57 Edited by: Ling Zai on 24/11/2008 14:52:34 I am a T2 producer and I come to the market community for some general advice. When we first started producing we were selling direct from our production, ie. Jita and Tash. This worked in the main but lead to some limitations with regards capacity. ie. we couldnt sell it quick enough to support increased production. We looked at several ways of increasing our sales and as a result set up a team of resellers across empire, we now sell in all the major hubs and some 0.0 gateways, producing a substantial income which is reinvested directly into increasing production. We have found that we are now reaching a bottleneck in the system. Our production has increased greatly and we are now finding we have surplus stocks of all of our current lines, regardless of our efforts to sell through the traditional market place in all empire regions. I believe there are two simple solutions to this problem, the first being an increase in personel selling & managing our sell orders (playing the 1isk game for example) The second being the setting up of links with external T2 resellers. I would like to focus on both, however I have limited experience of the latter, which brings me here. What would the demand be for a service which sells bulk T2 at a discount to Jita? What kind of discount would be approriate, in order for us to move forward and for the potential clients to make a profit? Have any of you had personal experience of the above and could offer some insight, do's and dont's etc. I await your advice with intrest. Currently Producing 100MN MicroWarpdrive II 1400mm Howitzer II 425mm Railgun II 75mm Gatling Rail II Absolution Acolyte II Armor EM Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Berserker II Claw Curse Damage Control II Deimos Dual Light Pulse Laser II ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II Flycatcher Heavy Capacitor Booster II Heavy Electron Blaster II Heretic Hobgoblin II Hornet II Infiltrator II Ishtar Jaguar Lachesis Large Energy Transfer Array II Malediction Medium Capacitor Battery II Medium Energy Neutralizer II Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Medium Energy Transfer Array II Medium Nosferatu II Medium Shield Extender II Mega Beam Laser II Miner II Modulated Deep Core Strip Miner II Purifier Praetor II Reactor Control Unit II Rocket Launcher II Small Capacitor Battery II Small Energy Transfer Array II Standard Missile Launcher II Stiletto Tracking Disruptor II Warrior II Zealot I could be interested in some of this, at work at the moment, could you eve mail me with approx figures for what your daily/weekly or Month over production is at the moment and approx how much you would want. Also what kind of deal you would prefer. ie in small batches as and when available or 1 monthly batch etc. i have alot of spare capital atm and looking for somewhere to place it with a decent turnover/profit.
Ling Zai Minmatar Zaitech	Posted - 2008.11.25 16:26:00 - [23] Thanks midas, rather than make backdoor deals im keen to make a service which is available to all traders. ie. a store front on these forums. this may sound crazy coming from someone who has invested heavily in t2 bpos, but I would like to try and do something to break the monopoly that t2 producers have over the market, making the product more accessable to all.
Elizabeth Marshall	Posted - 2008.11.25 17:19:00 - [24] Ive contacted you about reselling in game. ~SQ
Lord Zarcam Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2008.11.25 21:53:00 - [25] Originally by: Ling Zai Originally by: Lord Zarcam Although I'm still building my trading business, I would be interested in buying wholesale direct from someone. As long as the minimum order numbers aren't too high to begin with, I'm still small time compared to many here. All I buy and sell are T-2 items. thats a good point zarcam, what would be a sensible minimum? I was thinking 500m as a minimum order... too high? For me at this moment, yes it would be too high. Once I can sell off most of my current inventory on the market from my last shopping trip, maybe. I also have to get some of my trader skills higher to be able to effectively handle such large orders. I've been a business owner in real life for years and fully understand how "supply-chains" should work. I have been looking for such an opportunity in game. This would be a great thing for people like myself. Now we just need to work out the details. If I may suggest, create different pricing discounts for selected volume amounts. Set a base price first for all items, say widget #A is 100 isk wholesale (a selected % range above cost of manufacturing and materials). If customer #1 buys 250m isk of widget #A, he gets a 5% discount. If customer #2 buys 500m isk worth of widget #A, they get a 7% discount. You get the idea. There should be rewards for being able to purchase in higher volume, as that is how it often works in real life. Just a thought, it's your business model and you need to decide how profitable it is. And as a side note, remember this is a game and it must remain fun for you also. Can you keep up the volume to meet the demand? For an extended period of time? Consistently? With out it becoming another job? I ask this because building a business model around only one supplier is never a smart thing. But I think you are on to something new!
Ling Zai Minmatar Zaitech	Posted - 2008.11.25 22:52:00 - [26] Edited by: Ling Zai on 25/11/2008 22:53:46 great feedback zarcam, thanks. I think we may be onto something, ive recieved lots of enquiries already ingame! with regards it becoming a second job, that is kind of what i want to avoid by having a minimum purchase quantity... to avoid making a million contracts a day! however I also want this venture to help out the little man a bit, ie those starting out... so need to find a happy situation in the middle somewhere, where the min is small enough for a small time trader to get in on the action, but large enough to discourage people buying small and regular.
720	Posted - 2008.11.26 00:38:00 - [27] I appreciate you trying to fulfill the secondary market up eventually you get to big and it stops being worth the effort picking up the nickels and dimes If you have some overflow and would be interested in selling bulk orders at some sort of discount let me know in game.
Lord Zarcam Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2008.11.26 01:35:00 - [28] Originally by: Ling Zai Edited by: Ling Zai on 25/11/2008 22:53:46 great feedback zarcam, thanks. I think we may be onto something, ive recieved lots of enquiries already ingame! with regards it becoming a second job, that is kind of what i want to avoid by having a minimum purchase quantity... to avoid making a million contracts a day! however I also want this venture to help out the little man a bit, ie those starting out... so need to find a happy situation in the middle somewhere, where the min is small enough for a small time trader to get in on the action, but large enough to discourage people buying small and regular. I agree. You need to set a minimum order amount or it wouldn't really be a "wholesale" business. That will be a decision you need to make. Personally, I would like to see a minimum around $250m. For the beginner traders like me, anything larger then that is hard to swing. But if done right, that 250m investment can turn into 350m to 400m. And that's what I'm working to do now. I'll throw in my 2 isk's as the "little man". I usually go shopping once or twice a month for stuff to put on the market. So far I've been able to almost double the amounts in each shopping trip. Up to 300m isk on the last trip. Usually I buy 5 to 10 of each item. Almost always T-2 items as they have the greatest markup potential. I have a list of items I'm looking for, usually stuff I would use in my own ships. If they sell quickly, I keep them on my list. If they don't, I scratch them when the last one is sold. If I were to be able to buy wholesale from you, I would want to be able to pick and choose the items and amounts, just as I would in real life. If it's not something you normally stock, or you are temporarily out of stock, I would like to be able to place a special order for it to be ready in a reasonable time. And I would reserve the right to purchase from any other supplier I see fit. Customer service is king, price is queen. Hope this helps to give you some ideas. Good Luck!
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.11.26 11:58:00 - [29] Originally by: Ling Zai Thanks midas, rather than make backdoor deals im keen to make a service which is available to all traders. ie. a store front on these forums. this may sound crazy coming from someone who has invested heavily in t2 bpos, but I would like to try and do something to break the monopoly that t2 producers have over the market, making the product more accessable to all. Hehe no problem, but bear me in mind for any excess you require to move quick, Ive always got capital available and dont mind spending it if a profit is available especially when the said items would be good for personal use. Good luck with the enterprise though.
Xerian Dragonne Gallente Lost Star Technologies	Posted - 2008.11.26 12:22:00 - [30] Edited by: Xerian Dragonne on 26/11/2008 12:23:08 I would be interested in several of your modules if the price is compatible with the market I sell in and pickup location is viable. IMO Jita is a pain to move large volumes of tech 2 items out of cheaply due to pirates. It costs me in time and/or increased shipping costs. Location would be very important to volume purchases. Location(s) allowing movement through routes not normally infested with pirates would help decrease costs/risk. Specific to your demand question; I could see spending significant isk (billion(s)) per week on the items listed. Specific to pricing; enough of a discount to cover shipping costs, still compete with people building from purchased tech 2 raw materials, and those that buy from Jita. Would recommend reviewing the final pricing structure so that you don't cause demand spikes due to 'volume' discounts. Otherwise, you'll see weeks of high/low demand. I'm not interested in forming a sales/supplier relationship with someone who isn't making decent level of Isk but a wholesale supplier has to realise pricing drives volume in many markets. Figure out your costs and needed margin then give me a low price and I'll keep my margins low to ensure competition is driven off. Post pricing here or contact me in game if you would like to move some freight. I've got isky's to burn!

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