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Vladimir Ilych
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.11.24 16:07:00 -
[1]
Zap
Not sure about this. If a suspect appears armed get an armed reponse unit. If not just smack over the head for crying out loud. It's not like they don't have pepper spray already for people with knives.
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Straight Chillen
Gallente Solar Wind
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Posted - 2008.11.24 16:18:00 -
[2]
yeah, but with a tazer, you get to course 50kv of electricity through the punk till he loses control of his muscles and ****s him self. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Voltain
BEER Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.24 16:23:00 -
[3]
Hmm this smells a bit fishy, timing wise.
In light of the economy going to the dogs, is this the government preparing for a time of civil unrest?
This isn't to combat gun crime either. Guns>Tasers.
DesuSig |
Arianhod
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Posted - 2008.11.24 16:28:00 -
[4]
Don't Taze me Bro!
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Originally by: Janu Hull You're making me tingly in the special places...
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ebonyivory
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Posted - 2008.11.24 16:33:00 -
[5]
woot its about time we did something to protect the police. Tbh though we need a tougher stance on crime in general!
BRING BACK THE DEATH PENALTY FOR EVERYTHING
that would also help with the overcrowded cities
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baltec1
R.U.S.T. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.11.24 16:50:00 -
[6]
About time.
Now all we need are jails that punish people rather than the holiday camps we currently have
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ebonyivory
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Posted - 2008.11.24 16:51:00 -
[7]
Originally by: baltec1 About time.
Now all we need are jails that punish people rather than the holiday camps we currently have
this!
fckin playstations and t.v.s in prison cells.....i wouldnt be so bothered if we werent paying for it :(
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Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.24 16:59:00 -
[8]
Originally by: ebonyivory woot its about time we did something to protect the police. Tbh though we need a tougher stance on crime in general!
BRING BACK THE DEATH PENALTY FOR EVERYTHING
that would also help with the overcrowded cities
We really need a police force that is willing to actually deal with crime. ATM, they're nothing more than highly paid traffic wardens. Hey, forget that bank robber, there's a car over there with no tax disk
-- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again |
Sniper Wolf18
Gallente Apocalypse Ponies H E L I C O N
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Posted - 2008.11.24 18:04:00 -
[9]
BAH! police have had tasers, flashbangs and pew pew devices here evar since the army pulled out
People in British mainland have it easy And above all, read my sig! |
Alexia Strettger
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Posted - 2008.11.24 18:11:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Sniper Wolf18 BAH! police have had tasers, flashbangs and pew pew devices here evar since the army pulled out
People in British mainland have it easy
We're in your mainlands, tazing your bros
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Shanzem
Minmatar DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.11.24 18:16:00 -
[11]
i think were on count down now until the first Friday night louts get zapped!
\o/ -------------------------------------------
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ouroboros trading
Gallente Medics On Fire
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Posted - 2008.11.24 18:18:00 -
[12]
tazers are not non-lethal but less-lethal.
i'm betting they won't actually be allowed to use them unless the target is a white male (who as we all know has the least rights in the UK out of all groups of people)
428629? That's Numberwang! |
Arianhod
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Posted - 2008.11.24 18:20:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Shanzem i think were on count down now until the first Friday night louts get zapped!
\o/
You called?
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Originally by: Janu Hull You're making me tingly in the special places...
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Shanzem
Minmatar DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.11.24 18:21:00 -
[14]
Originally by: ouroboros trading tazers are not non-lethal but less-lethal.
i'm betting they won't actually be allowed to use them unless the target is a white male (who as we all know has the least rights in the UK out of all groups of people)
in fact with the current law situation, i dear to say our pets have more rights then we do.
-------------------------------------------
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Shanzem
Minmatar DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.11.24 18:22:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Arianhod
Originally by: Shanzem i think were on count down now until the first Friday night louts get zapped!
\o/
You called?
could it be
o/ -------------------------------------------
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Captain Hudson
Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.11.24 18:52:00 -
[16]
About time they used these instead of 5 officers to restrain some **** who wont behave when getting arrested. Dont break the law and you wont have anything to fear will you?
Iv found him |
Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.11.24 19:04:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 24/11/2008 19:03:58
Originally by: Captain Hudson About time they used these instead of 5 officers to restrain some **** who wont behave when getting arrested. Dont break the law and you wont have anything to fear will you?
Quite so, also I'm all for giving the police some power to protect themselves/others (they're people doing a job, not faceless robots) especially when it's non-lethal and as effective as tazers.
Personally I'm in favour of them being allowed to blow your head clean off with an MP5 or sniper rifle if you go around threatening someone's life, and yes wielding a knife or something similar falls under that.
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Niraia
GREY COUNCIL Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.11.24 19:10:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Captain Hudson Dont break the law and you wont have anything to fear will you?
Because all police officers are the embodiment of everything that's good and right in this country.. There's a reason we don't arm them all, you know. I dont break the law, but I fear people like you.
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Arianhod
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Posted - 2008.11.24 19:19:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Niraia
Originally by: Captain Hudson Dont break the law and you wont have anything to fear will you?
Because all police officers are the embodiment of everything that's good and right in this country.. There's a reason we don't arm them all, you know. I dont break the law, but I fear people like you.
I recall my mother telling me her experiences of the Police from the south swarming Liverpool during the miners strikes.
One does not want to give the Police too much power...
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Originally by: Janu Hull You're making me tingly in the special places...
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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari Terradyne Networks
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Posted - 2008.11.24 21:41:00 -
[20]
Can't taze this!
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Shanzem
Minmatar DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.11.24 21:42:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Shanzem on 24/11/2008 21:46:53
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Can't taze this!
Genius! hell i cannot wait for the British version LOL!
Dont taze me mate! -------------------------------------------
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Kravick Drasari
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Posted - 2008.11.24 22:24:00 -
[22]
You guys will be fine. The police in the US have had tasers for the last 2 years. They're very effective at dealing with belligerent douche bags who think they don't have to listen to police officers. All of our police officers still carry guns too. --- My cat Putter approves of this post. |
EnslaverOfMinmatar
Yarsk Hunters DeaDSpace Coalition
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Posted - 2008.11.24 22:26:00 -
[23]
you should get rid of your silly parliament andthe queen and then maybe we'll accept you as our 51 state uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ ƃuıpɐǝɹ ǝɹɐ noʎ
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Glarion Garnier
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.11.24 22:42:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Glarion Garnier on 24/11/2008 22:43:50 Ok what how about when the officers break the law? What then. Have you forgotten that police are there for the people and not the other way around. When they come behind your door to get your dna, inject a rfid tag under your skin or take you to a camp. What will you do?
This is getting sillier byt the week. then we have this
Social-services-set-up-CCTV-camera-in-couples-bedroom _________________________________ -be vary of the men behind the curtain-
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Intense Thinker
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.24 22:53:00 -
[25]
Just issue .45s like the good ol' days.... everyone's equal when the .45 is talking to you --------------------- It's me! Your lovable forum warrior!!! |
Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction The Firm.
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Posted - 2008.11.24 23:14:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Intense Thinker Just issue .45s like the good ol' days.... everyone's equal when the .45 is talking to you
Strictly speaking, .455s in these here parts.
Anyway, the timing is suspect. Logical but not really a sign of good faith, is it?
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Intense Thinker
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.25 00:04:00 -
[27]
Police should just be issued tranq guns loaded with enough sedative to put someone in a coma for 24 hours --------------------- It's me! Your lovable forum warrior!!! |
Khraunus
Amarr Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2008.11.25 00:21:00 -
[28]
Originally by: ebonyivory woot its about time we did something to protect the police. Tbh though we need a tougher stance on crime in general!
BRING BACK THE DEATH PENALTY FOR EVERYTHING
that would also help with the overcrowded cities
If this happens you'll have criminals all over the world who know their lives are over and don't care about the consequences anymore, and I believe I don't need to tell you this is a very bad thing for all police offers around the world as well as some civilians.
On the other hand if this is sarcasm and I have failed to detect it, please disregard the above comment. Most importantly, how are you supposed to tell whether this is part of my post or my signature? |
Kravick Drasari
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Posted - 2008.11.25 00:38:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Glarion Garnier Edited by: Glarion Garnier on 24/11/2008 22:43:50 Ok what how about when the officers break the law? What then. Have you forgotten that police are there for the people and not the other way around. When they come behind your door to get your dna, inject a rfid tag under your skin or take you to a camp. What will you do?
This is getting sillier byt the week. then we have this
Social-services-set-up-CCTV-camera-in-couples-bedroom
Whats stopping them from doing it now? Tasers won't make any difference. Hell, our police have had guns since our country was born and this isn't a problem. --- My cat Putter approves of this post. |
Brea Lafail
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Posted - 2008.11.25 01:06:00 -
[30]
Lol, enjoy your sudden increase in "excited delirium" and "******* overdose" cases.
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Djan Anaplian
Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.11.25 01:28:00 -
[31]
Finally, something to fry the chavs with.
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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari Terradyne Networks
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Posted - 2008.11.25 03:14:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Glarion Garnier Edited by: Glarion Garnier on 24/11/2008 22:43:50 Ok what how about when the officers break the law? What then. Have you forgotten that police are there for the people and not the other way around. When they come behind your door to get your dna, inject a rfid tag under your skin or take you to a camp. What will you do?
This is getting sillier byt the week. then we have this
Social-services-set-up-CCTV-camera-in-couples-bedroom
Hello Shiningone alt.
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soldieroffortune 258
Gallente Trinity Council
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Posted - 2008.11.25 03:20:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Vladimir Ilych Zap
Not sure about this. If a suspect appears armed get an armed reponse unit. If not just smack over the head for crying out loud. It's not like they don't have pepper spray already for people with knives.
i cant wait until the first officer uses this and the suspect is burned or bleeds a little and sues the Police department and charges the officer with abuse, assault, battery, and attempted murder (for those who have high choloesterol or some ****)
wouldnt suprise me one bit tbh
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258
"Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer"
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soldieroffortune 258
Gallente Trinity Council
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Posted - 2008.11.25 03:23:00 -
[34]
Originally by: EnslaverOfMinmatar you should get rid of your silly parliament andthe queen and then maybe we'll accept you as our 51 state
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258
"Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer"
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KingsGambit
Caldari Knights
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Posted - 2008.11.25 09:11:00 -
[35]
Very controversial story, and quite old. I understand one man now has heart palpatations since being tasered, another with a screwed up nervous system and at least one woman has had a misscarriage after same and they push ahead with it anyway. Don't like it at all. Just stick to the truncheon bobby and armed response when needed approach and there's no problem. -------------
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Reven Cordelle
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.11.25 09:28:00 -
[36]
To be honest, Tazers are weak.
The Police should have at minimum a 9mm and a Tazer in high risk areas. General street police have CS Gas and a telescoping baton usually. I had a chat to a police woman the other day, she did feel that they were actually a bit pointless, in that she had to get CLOSE to a criminal to put any kind of force on him.
Police weapons would speak volumes in Britain, where people **** bricks at the sight of a bright orange toy paintball gun, let alone the business end of an M92FS.
But for some reason in this country, if an armed police officer so much as raises a gun or takes it off safety, he probably goes to jail or ends up in court.
At the end of the day, theres so much lack of faith in our own police force.
We train these officers and we pay obscene amounts for it. So why exactly do we question them every time they make a decision?
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Voltain
BEER Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 09:47:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Reven Cordelle We train these officers and we pay obscene amounts for it. So why exactly do we question them every time they make a decision?
Because shooting that Brazilian guy just might have been the wrong one.
Because police racism interfered with an investigation into a black kids murder.
Because they shot a guy for carrying a table leg.
Because they ploughed their car into a woman who lived locally to me.
DesuSig |
KingsGambit
Caldari Knights
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Posted - 2008.11.25 10:01:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Reven Cordelle But for some reason in this country, if an armed police officer so much as raises a gun or takes it off safety, he probably goes to jail or ends up in court.
At the end of the day, theres so much lack of faith in our own police force.
We train these officers and we pay obscene amounts for it. So why exactly do we question them every time they make a decision?
Voltain has it spot on there. We pay them to enforce the law and police have a very unique position in our society. We tolerate them breaking a few minor laws if it means stopping criminals breaking bigger ones and to protect us from them. However when they start shooting and tasing us, that's a litle more than I personally think we want from them. I think armed response units are a must to deal with specific threats and in places of high security, but arming our bobbies would turn our police into those of the continent or the US.
If any policeman ever fires a gun in the UK for any reason (outside of training) they are immediately suspended pending investigation and this is one thing that is absolutely right. Firing even one bullet is a very big deal and we have to question whether or not it was necessary, if it costs someone their life. If they had the right of it, then the man comes back to work, if not, court/jail/inquiry. The system works. Won't help De Menzes though.
Anyway, this thread is going in a bad direction. -------------
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Reven Cordelle
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.11.25 10:05:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Reven Cordelle on 25/11/2008 10:06:22
Originally by: Voltain
Originally by: Reven Cordelle We train these officers and we pay obscene amounts for it. So why exactly do we question them every time they make a decision?
Because shooting that Brazilian guy just might have been the wrong one.
Because police racism interfered with an investigation into a black kids murder.
Because they shot a guy for carrying a table leg.
Because they ploughed their car into a woman who lived locally to me.
Haha, good point.
In the same mind, now that they have tazers...
I'll begin taking bets on how long it takes for the news to report an "over-tazered criminal".
(Oh, and to be honest... If you see a sketchy looking guy, and you shout "stop" whilst pointing an MP5 at him... and he runs, is he suspect? (Shortly after some bombings remember) In this modern world, he is. Alas thats neither here nor there. He's dead now.)
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Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 11:59:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Captain Hudson About time they used these instead of 5 officers to restrain some **** who wont behave when getting arrested. Dont break the law and you wont have anything to fear will you?[/quote]
hahahahaha good one mate! LOL!
....wait, you weren't serious were you?
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Stitcher
Caldari Duty.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 12:29:00 -
[41]
the UK zeitgeist is so afraid of "big brother" or the police state that it's pretty much guaranteed never to happen.
hell, we're so culturally petrified of the idea that hardly anything can get done without being scrutinized in minute detail by ten or twelve watchdogs. -
Captain Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Voltain
BEER Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 12:33:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Voltain on 25/11/2008 12:33:08 The thing is we do move ever closer to a police state.
It may come down to the basic interaction between the Police and the public being a decision made by the copper whether to Taser or not.
Can you see either of the following circumstances happening?
A copper sees you taking a leak up an ally while youÆre on a night out; youÆre caught short and didnÆt have a choice besides that or ****ing yourself. Some will see reason and tell you not to do it again, others will give you an ear full and accuse you of drunken and disorderly behaviour, criminal damage etc. What happens if you (a right minded member of the public) disagree to this, are you resisting arrest? Do you require a Tasering?
Its 2011, youÆre on a legitimate protest to show your anger at the governmentÆs decision to increase your NI contributions by 10% as the national debt is so high payments have meant the NHS is unable to provide any healthcare to the over 65Æs (who are all now expected to work until 75 before retirement). While youÆre at a rally point the police act on tenuous information discussed in a private email which suggests a very small minority may be attending with the intention to cause trouble. They tell you to disband, you feel as if you are losing your basic freedom to protest and the group refuse. Do you all have your balls fried?
DesuSig |
Stitcher
Caldari Duty.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 12:43:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Voltain Can you see either of the following circumstances happening?
A copper sees you taking a leak up an ally while youÆre on a night out; youÆre caught short and didnÆt have a choice besides that or ****ing yourself. Some will see reason and tell you not to do it again, others will give you an ear full and accuse you of drunken and disorderly behaviour, criminal damage etc. What happens if you (a right minded member of the public) disagree to this, are you resisting arrest? Do you require a Tasering?
solution - do not resist arrest. Exercise your right to legal representation and to have your case handled by a different officer. if you are tazed unfairly, you have a right to take the police to court over it.
Quote: Its 2011, youÆre on a legitimate protest to show your anger at the governmentÆs decision to increase your NI contributions by 10% as the national debt is so high payments have meant the NHS is unable to provide any healthcare to the over 65Æs (who are all now expected to work until 75 before retirement). While youÆre at a rally point the police act on tenuous information discussed in a private email which suggests a very small minority may be attending with the intention to cause trouble. They tell you to disband, you feel as if you are losing your basic freedom to protest and the group refuse. Do you all have your balls fried?
Maybe, but if you do it's a legitimate case of police brutality that can again be taken through the courts.
Like I said, our culture is so concerned about police abuse and brutality that we have incredibly efficient systems in place for dealing with the rare isolated incidence where it does actually happen.
Not only that, but the cops are so worried about being sued or suffering further public relations damage that they make damn sure that they minimize the possibility of being exposed to these charges.
Individual police, sure, handle with caution. But the organization itself is as good as gold and stocked with a huge number of honourable people who more than counterbalance the rare power junky. -
Captain Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction The Firm.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 17:28:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 25/11/2008 17:28:59
Originally by: Reven Cordelle (Oh, and to be honest... If you see a sketchy looking guy, and you shout "stop" whilst pointing an MP5 at him... and he runs, is he suspect? (Shortly after some bombings remember) In this modern world, he is. Alas thats neither here nor there. He's dead now.)
Except he didn't run. According to people in the same carriage testifying at the inquest, he walked in, sat down, then another man walked in and wordlessly shot him in the head. No running down the escalator vaulting over barriers, no jacket or warnings. After that, a lot of misleading details were leaked to the media and became widely accepted before a whole bunch of people who were there called BS on it before judges at the attempted H&S prosecution and now the inquest. Frankly with the limited and intermittent visual contact the police appear to have had, it is a miracle they did not walk into the wrong carriage and shoot the wrong guy wearing similar clothes. Nope, it was a cluster**** from start to finish and I doubt a single thing was done correctly because it was the first time and accordingly the training was worthless. I fully expect them to make a mess of it several more times before they score a notable success.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.11.25 17:38:00 -
[45]
For the same reason you can't preemtively hang people because there is a chance there might be a murderer amongst them, you can't preemptively disallow the police to have means to defend themselves/society just because stuff goes wrong sometimes.
If that were the case then no one would ever be allowed to drive a car again because some people don't pay attention or are drunk and cause deadly accidents.
fact; there's some creepy, nasty s****out there fact: I'm certainly not gonna intervene and be brave fact: police are people, who want to come home after their day of work fact: I have no problems with the police having severe measures to protect semselves and possibly discourage any idiots wanting to pull any sh!t.
Ofcourse you can drop the '1984' card but lets be honest; as it stands we need someone to take care of the idiots, it's getting out of hand.
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Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction The Firm.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 17:44:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 25/11/2008 17:44:45
They have truncheons, pepper spray, steel-toed boots, radio, and the most comprehensive video surveilance system on the planet. When there are criminals about, have at them. They don't need guns for routine work, that is why we have specially trained units. Besides, I have yet to see anyone need a revolver to arrest a banker, insurance broker or auditor. Why aren't they going after the real criminals?
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ouroboros trading
Gallente Medics On Fire
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Posted - 2008.11.25 17:51:00 -
[47]
define real criminals.
641424? That's Numberwang! |
Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction The Firm.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 18:00:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 25/11/2008 18:01:04
Originally by: ouroboros trading define real criminals.
Fraudsters. Their counterfeiting of credit destroys the purchasing power of the money in my pocket the same way as if someone walks up to me and demands it at knifepoint. But instead of tackling that, we make sure young people cannot congregate in a park as though it is there to be looked at from beyond the gate. I think we could talk about arming the police if we saw some concessions made over double standards.
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ouroboros trading
Gallente Medics On Fire
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Posted - 2008.11.25 18:27:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Cmdr Sy Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 25/11/2008 18:01:04
Originally by: ouroboros trading define real criminals.
Fraudsters. Their counterfeiting of credit destroys the purchasing power of the money in my pocket the same way as if someone walks up to me and demands it at knifepoint. But instead of tackling that, we make sure young people cannot congregate in a park as though it is there to be looked at from beyond the gate. I think we could talk about arming the police if we saw some concessions made over double standards.
aye *nods*
448982? That's Numberwang! |
Davina Braben
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Posted - 2008.11.25 19:25:00 -
[50]
Provided these are used responsibly and discriminately I think they extend the range of responses available to the police which can only be a good thing.
Saves them having to shoot or tackle nutters with knives for a start.
The problem comes when these things are abused but I suppose that is where guidelines and the IPCC come in.
It's pretty common practice for police officers who carry these things to try them out on each other in training so it's not as though anyone is going to regard them as "harmless".
Quote: Because shooting that Brazilian guy just might have been the wrong one.
Believe it or not the Police operate under much the same law regarding self-defence as the rest of us do. It's acceptable only if they believe what they are doing is the only way to prevent a crime from taking place. Response should be proportionate.
I think the only modification is that they can do so preventatively - they don't have to see a crime actually happening to use force.
So, is it OK to shoot a suicide bomber in the head to stop him detonating a bomb on a rush hour subway carriage?
Any shot other than a headshot is likely to give him chance to detonate his bomb. Shouting a warning will give him chance to detonate his bomb. He isn't going to surrender anyway because is a suicide bomber. Using Less-Than-Lethal means will give him chance to detonate his bomb. You can't wait and see because this is very likely his target. There have already been a string of bombings on public transport and this is an ideal time and location to set off a bomb to cause lots of casualties.
"Ah but" you might not unreasonably say "this guy wasn't a suicide bomber". Yup. It's true. Noone is infallible. There were in that instance and always will be tragic mistakes made.
But if you change the law to prevent the Police acting in those circumstances you make it basically impossible for them to protect the public under what are probably going to be increasingly commonplace circumstances.
You can at this point trot out "He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither." but that isn't how it works in this country.
Anyway, dreadful weather we're having.
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ouroboros trading
Gallente Medics On Fire
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Posted - 2008.11.25 19:46:00 -
[51]
Yea it might be able to overload a normal persons nerves but if they tried to do it to me I'd just power up to over a 500, 000 power level and it explode the whole taser gun and probably nearly explode anyone near it. Then I'd punch the guy up in the air and then I'd go Masenkoooo!!! and blast him up into the air and then do like 50 ki blasts
180309? That's Numberwang! |
Dr Slaughter
Minmatar Rabies Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 23:58:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Voltain Edited by: Voltain on 25/11/2008 12:33:08 The thing is we do move ever closer to a police state.
What makes you think it hasn't been once since the late 60's?
The MOD have been thinking about the up-and-coming problems for a long time. Let's see if the police have been upgraded to all carrying guns in another 10 years time.
~~~~ There is no parody in this thread. Honest. |
Dr Slaughter
Minmatar Rabies Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.26 00:03:00 -
[53]
Quote: Because shooting that Brazilian guy just might have been the wrong one.
FFS he shouldn't have even been in the F&*King country. If he wasn't here he wouldn't have been shot in the head. Pity they don't shoot all the other people who are here illegally while they're at it.
It really ****es me off that so much money has been spent on that case. Davina.. all great points btw.
~~~~ There is no parody in this thread. Honest. |
Brea Lafail
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Posted - 2008.11.26 01:35:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Brea Lafail on 26/11/2008 01:48:45
Originally by: Davina Braben
Any shot other than a headshot is likely to give him chance to detonate his bomb. Shouting a warning will give him chance to detonate his bomb. He isn't going to surrender anyway because is a suicide bomber. Using Less-Than-Lethal means will give him chance to detonate his bomb. You can't wait and see because this is very likely his target. There have already been a string of bombings on public transport and this is an ideal time and location to set off a bomb to cause lots of casualties.
Gee, I dunno, maybe they coulda used all that expensive police training to grapple the guy so he couldn't move his arms? What evidence did they have to show he even had a bomb? I'd think that drugs would be much more likely. What next: "Im faaaiiiirly sure that's the killer *BAM* whoops, my bad, maybe that's him over there?"
P.S. Thanks for the link. Interesting read.
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dennyreborn
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Posted - 2008.11.26 02:01:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Vladimir Ilych Zap
Not sure about this. If a suspect appears armed get an armed reponse unit. If not just smack over the head for crying out loud. It's not like they don't have pepper spray already for people with knives.
Pepper spray is nice and all but it has limitations. It is still possible to cut someone while blinded with pepper spray. And very likely to happen if the chav is drugged out.
Now what we need is to encourage a liberal use of the Taser in the name of officer safety.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.11.26 08:17:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Brea Lafail Gee, I dunno, maybe they coulda used all that expensive police training to grapple the guy so he couldn't move his arms? What evidence did they have to show he even had a bomb? I'd think that drugs would be much more likely. What next: "Im faaaiiiirly sure that's the killer *BAM* whoops, my bad, maybe that's him over there?"
P.S. Thanks for the link. Interesting read.
If you want to wrestle someone who has a bomb on him he could set off any second then by all mean, go have fun. But please do it in the backyard where there's some room and we can easily clean up the blood splatters afterwards.
Don't talk nonsense.
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mogwai
Gallente Licentia Pro Totus
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Posted - 2008.11.26 08:37:00 -
[57]
It's about bloody time the U.K police got issued with tazers.
I have family in the police force and it's been demoralizing seing them 'trying' to do a job that has landed more than one in hospital due to lack of correct equipment to subdue a criminal.
All they need now is the damn red-tape brigade so stop trying to justify thier over-inflated wage packets and leave the police officers alone to put crooks behind bars
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Captain Hudson
Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.11.26 08:45:00 -
[58]
Criminals have tasers,guns,knives and all sorts of weapons they love to unleash on you for stepping on their shoes or because they like your mobile phone. Now the police have pepper spray and a trunchon, is it any wonder no one fears them?
People cry about a lack of police, its because 5 of them have to spend 10 minutes trying to handcuff someone who has had to much to drink or simply wants to cause more trouble, one zap will sort them out and the other 4 can go out and catch more of them..
Iv found him |
midge Mo'yb
R.U.S.T. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.11.26 09:16:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Brea Lafail Edited by: Brea Lafail on 26/11/2008 01:48:45
Originally by: Davina Braben
Any shot other than a headshot is likely to give him chance to detonate his bomb. Shouting a warning will give him chance to detonate his bomb. He isn't going to surrender anyway because is a suicide bomber. Using Less-Than-Lethal means will give him chance to detonate his bomb. You can't wait and see because this is very likely his target. There have already been a string of bombings on public transport and this is an ideal time and location to set off a bomb to cause lots of casualties.
Gee, I dunno, maybe they coulda used all that expensive police training to grapple the guy so he couldn't move his arms? What evidence did they have to show he even had a bomb? I'd think that drugs would be much more likely. What next: "Im faaaiiiirly sure that's the killer *BAM* whoops, my bad, maybe that's him over there?"
P.S. Thanks for the link. Interesting read.
was the guys own fault... he was an ilegal imigrant? or visa expired or something iirc, the police asked him to stop and he ran... oh gee you think after the events of 7/7 not long before it running from the police in the subway is hardly gonna get you any friends... -----------------------------------------------
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Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.26 09:37:00 -
[60]
Originally by: EnslaverOfMinmatar you should get rid of your silly parliament andthe queen
Ooooh, I wish.
Half the problems in this country are due to the above and the fact that Brits have no form of constitutional rights. What few rights Brits may have left are being eroded away because the gov't can take them away from you anytime they want. Brits protest by buying more pizza and watching extra episodes of Eastenders cos they got no spine.
As you can see, I'm not proud of being British.
-- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again |
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Dr Slaughter
Minmatar Rabies Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.26 10:04:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Dantes Revenge Half the problems in this country are due to the above
which brings us nicely to the other half of the problems...
Originally by: Dantes Revenge I'm not proud of being British.
Naturally even if we had something to be proud about we wouldn't be allowed* to be because that raises the specter of national socialism.
Meh.
* many 'brits' have been conditioned through their education process not to entertain such thoughts, and/or, the state/local government would come down on you like a ton of bricks.
~~~~ There is no parody in this thread. Honest. |
Stitcher
Caldari Duty.
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Posted - 2008.11.26 10:17:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Dantes Revenge Half the problems in this country are due to the above and the fact that Brits have no form of constitutional rights. What few rights Brits may have left are being eroded away because the gov't can take them away from you anytime they want. Brits protest by buying more pizza and watching extra episodes of Eastenders cos they got no spine.
As you can see, I'm not proud of being British.
Well I bloody well am, and you are very wrong. The UK does indeed have a system of constitutional rights. Our constitution was drawn up over centuries of subtle political change. It is in fact one of the oldest democratic constitutions in the world, seeing as its roots date back to Viking times.
The common misconception that we don't have one is down to the fact that there was never a big event which caused several notable figures to sit down and sign it, unlike the American Declaration of Independence. Nor is it embodied in one simple document, but is instead embodied in custom, statute law, common law and EC law.
This is purely symptomatic of our country's long and complex history that has passed without violent civil revolt - the only reason the USA has such a neat document for a constitution is because they are a very young nation indeed.
Some of your rights as a British citizen (per The Human Rights Act 1998):
* the right to life * freedom from torture and degraded treatment * freedom from slavery and forced labour * the right to liberty * the right to a fair trial * the right not to be punished for something that wasn't a crime when you did it * the right to respect for private and family life * freedom of thought, conscience and religion * freedom of expression * freedom of assembly and association * the right to marry or form a civil partnership and start a family * the right not to be discriminated against in respect of these rights and freedoms * the right to own property * the right to an education * the right to participate in free elections
Lesser-known fact: the Napoleonic wars between Britain and France were actually a case of a democracy (Britain) taking on a dictatorship (France) in an attempt to protect the civil freedoms of much of europe. The French tried to paint themselves as the champions of liberty in that era, but in actual fact they became furiously nationalistic and subservient to the Emperor, after entering that bent grey area where left and right collide in a black hole of guillotines and executions without trial.
Britain were among the first to abolish slavery, we were the first to adopt a parliamentary democracy (Ever heard of King Charles the Second? He started it all). The modern UK has been a champion of freedom, democracy and human rights for centuries. Even today, our nation is front and center - our universities are rated among the best in the world, as are (despite the ignorant bleatings of the Daily Mail) our health services, legal system, welfare services, scientific organizations, military and culture. Our police force takes great pride in being pretty much the only one in the world that don't want or need guns to do their jobs.
And don't get me started on all the reasons why it's GOOD that we still have a monarch.
I'm not about to sing "God Save the Queen" here, but when you consider that Britain makes up a mere 1% or so of the total global population, you should be counting yourself incredibly lucky to have been born here. -
Captain Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
baltec1
R.U.S.T. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.11.26 11:27:00 -
[63]
Is it just me that thinks that people who break the law and are a danger to the public deserve what they get?
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Reven Cordelle
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.11.26 12:10:00 -
[64]
Originally by: baltec1 Is it just me that thinks that people who break the law and are a danger to the public deserve what they get?
No, But people scald me for saying such "heartless" things.
So I tend to avoid saying them.
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Davina Braben
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Posted - 2008.11.26 12:12:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Davina Braben on 26/11/2008 12:13:03 Just to add to Stitcher's post we also have the various European Courts which are our highest courts of appeal. The ECHR in particular can safeguard our rights.
I'm not sure but I think they've actually got more power over parliament than the high court ever did.
Quote: Gee, I dunno, maybe they coulda used all that expensive police training to grapple the guy so he couldn't move his arms? What evidence did they have to show he even had a bomb? I'd think that drugs would be much more likely. What next: "Im faaaiiiirly sure that's the killer *BAM* whoops, my bad, maybe that's him over there?"
Nope, not really. If he's got the trigger in his hand (could be wired down his sleeve, could be in his pocket) already you're just giving him time to detonate the bomb. Ditto stopping him and strip searching him. This puts everyone on the train and the platform at risk, or so they believed at the time. That "so they believed at the time" is the crucial test under UK self defence law.
The firearms officers were there specifically because they had identified a flat full of bombing suspects which this unfortunate plumber lived next door to and got misidentified as. That isn't they do stop and search over here.
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Arianhod
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Posted - 2008.11.26 15:17:00 -
[66]
I salute Stitchers post.
The Westminster system is probably the best and most balanced there is, the Prime Minister dosen't need to be elected by himself, just his party. The Lords (while controversial) make sense in a few ways. They have huge amounts of knowledge in subjects and by never having to campaign for their seats, can tell the commons to **** off when needs be.
I agree with the reforms needed, but thats why the system works, it's always reformed throughout history to reflect the period it's in.
Also having the Windsors as monarch is a win/win situation as far as I am concerned. The Duchies the Queen has have been loaned to the Treasury. All this bull about it costing the taxpayer money is wrong, those figures are the money they use out of how much they earn, the other few hundred million go to the Treasury.
Get rid of the Monarchy and we lose all that revenue, god help us the day we need to elect a President of Britain, God Save the Queen Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Originally by: Janu Hull You're making me tingly in the special places...
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jason hill
Caldari Clan Shadow Wolf Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.26 17:03:00 -
[67]
wonders what would happen if we could the big JC as our roving ambassador to the middle east instead of that other stupid bloody idiot who`s currently doing it .
destroy everything you touch |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.26 17:23:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Kravick Drasari You guys will be fine. The police in the US have had tasers for the last 2 years. They're very effective at dealing with belligerent douche bags who think they don't have to listen to police officers. All of our police officers still carry guns too.
And they've only killed three hundred or so people with them in that time, so nothing to fear at all.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Stitcher
Caldari Duty.
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Posted - 2008.11.26 18:20:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Stitcher on 26/11/2008 18:20:51
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Kravick Drasari You guys will be fine. The police in the US have had tasers for the last 2 years. They're very effective at dealing with belligerent douche bags who think they don't have to listen to police officers. All of our police officers still carry guns too.
And they've only killed three hundred or so people with them in that time, so nothing to fear at all.
That's three hundred out of the.... what? Million times that many people who live there? Plus, y'know, compare that to their national average of 10,000 gun murders per year, or the 67,000 people per year who injure themselves opening food packaging, or the 25 per year who set fire to their house trying to deep-fry the thanksgiving turkey.... I'd bet that more people die per year from misusing fireworks or paint spraycans and I KNOW that more people die per year in bare-knuckle fights.
Tazers might, in exceptional circumstances, kill people. Tazers WILL, very often indeed, keep the police officers who use them safe and healthy without harming the man who was trying to to hurt them.
Besides, apparently it's not so bad - just like getting a cramp in your leg. Given the choice between being tazed or... I dunno, pepper sprayed or whacked with a baton, I'd choose the electro-shock therapy any time. -
Captain Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Shanzem
Minmatar DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.11.26 19:28:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Stitcher
Originally by: Dantes Revenge Half the problems in this country are due to the above and the fact that Brits have no form of constitutional rights. What few rights Brits may have left are being eroded away because the gov't can take them away from you anytime they want. Brits protest by buying more pizza and watching extra episodes of Eastenders cos they got no spine.
As you can see, I'm not proud of being British.
Well I bloody well am, and you are very wrong. The UK does indeed have a system of constitutional rights. Our constitution was drawn up over centuries of subtle political change. It is in fact one of the oldest democratic constitutions in the world, seeing as its roots date back to Viking times.
The common misconception that we don't have one is down to the fact that there was never a big event which caused several notable figures to sit down and sign it, unlike the American Declaration of Independence. Nor is it embodied in one simple document, but is instead embodied in custom, statute law, common law and EC law.
This is purely symptomatic of our country's long and complex history that has passed without violent civil revolt - the only reason the USA has such a neat document for a constitution is because they are a very young nation indeed.
Some of your rights as a British citizen (per The Human Rights Act 1998):
* the right to life * freedom from torture and degraded treatment * freedom from slavery and forced labour * the right to liberty * the right to a fair trial * the right not to be punished for something that wasn't a crime when you did it * the right to respect for private and family life * freedom of thought, conscience and religion * freedom of expression * freedom of assembly and association * the right to marry or form a civil partnership and start a family * the right not to be discriminated against in respect of these rights and freedoms * the right to own property * the right to an education * the right to participate in free elections
Lesser-known fact: the Napoleonic wars between Britain and France were actually a case of a democracy (Britain) taking on a dictatorship (France) in an attempt to protect the civil freedoms of much of europe. The French tried to paint themselves as the champions of liberty in that era, but in actual fact they became furiously nationalistic and subservient to the Emperor, after entering that bent grey area where left and right collide in a black hole of guillotines and executions without trial.
Britain were among the first to abolish slavery, we were the first to adopt a parliamentary democracy (Ever heard of King Charles the Second? He started it all). The modern UK has been a champion of freedom, democracy and human rights for centuries. Even today, our nation is front and center - our universities are rated among the best in the world, as are (despite the ignorant bleatings of the Daily Mail) our health services, legal system, welfare services, scientific organizations, military and culture. Our police force takes great pride in being pretty much the only one in the world that don't want or need guns to do their jobs.
And don't get me started on all the reasons why it's GOOD that we still have a monarch.
I'm not about to sing "God Save the Queen" here, but when you consider that Britain makes up a mere 1% or so of the total global population, you should be counting yourself incredibly lucky to have been born here.
thats was 30 years ago.
-------------------------------------------
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Arianhod
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Posted - 2008.11.26 19:46:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Arianhod on 26/11/2008 19:47:09
Originally by: Shanzem
Originally by: Stitcher
Some of your rights as a British citizen (per The Human Rights Act 1998):
thats was 30 years ago.
Epic Fail is Epic Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Originally by: Janu Hull You're making me tingly in the special places...
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Stitcher
Caldari Duty.
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Posted - 2008.11.26 19:53:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Stitcher on 26/11/2008 19:54:18
Oh, sorry, forgot to mention THIS.
1215, anyone?
Just because it's old doesn't mean it's gone away. -
Captain Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.26 20:03:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Stitcher Some of your rights as a British citizen (per The Human Rights Act 1998):
Note: The human rights act was drawn up by several countries working together. The UK was NOT the sole advocate. It's also worth a note that the UK gov't has been taken to the Human Rights Court on a number of occasions.
Quote:
* freedom from torture and degraded treatment
Please understand that the British INVENTED the concentration camps during the Boar war.
Quote:
* freedom from slavery and forced labour
Not according to my wage packet but that's another matter. Also, try telling that to the people who have been forced to work for their dole money, forced to take jobs they are are far too overqualified for etc. Sonds like forced labour to me.
Quote:
* the right to a fair trial
Except when you are charged with "Going Equipped" where the law does not have to prove intent but you have to prove your innocence. I believe "Innocent until proven guilty" has no part to play in this particular law and some others.
Quote:
* freedom of expression
Unless they can pin "Inciting a riot" on you.
Quote:
* freedom of assembly and association
See above. Also there are laws governing crowds that were brought in after the poll tax protests so that right has been eroded somewhat.
Quote:
* the right to marry or form a civil partnership and start a family
Except when one of the party is not a British citizen. My own experience of this prevented me from marrying my gf becausse she is not from the UK. Anywhere else in the world, you can marry on a tourist visa but in the UK, you have to purchase a special visa which costs 500 quid. You cannot marry while one of you is on a tourist visa. Although the right has not be removed, they are making damn sure they profit from interenet born relationships.
Quote:
* the right not to be discriminated against in respect of these rights and freedoms
Unless you are native to the country. An immigrant has far more rights than a resident which discriminates against the people native to this country in favour of someone who was not born in this country.
Quote:
* the right to own property
You don't own property in the UK. All land is either owned by the church or the monarchy. If you check the laws properly, they can take it from you and don't even have to compensate.
This also relates to the new bailiff laws being introduced in Feb that allows them to force entry without first having a walking posession order. Again, they can just take your property. Also, vehicles being removed because they have no road tax. All this is outright legalised theft. If I took your car and destroyed it because you owed me a hundred bucks, you would have me in court for theft.
Like I said, our rights are being slowly eroded but Brits don't have the spine to stand up and do something about it. A Dutch co-worker once said to me that if their gov't did to them, half of what ours did to us, there would be a civil riot in Holland. He was so disgusted with the UK that he went back home to Holland.
I was born here but spent a good deal of my life overseas. I've seen how the other half live and, trust me, it's far better than what we have to put up with. I am disgusted with the UK now. A once a proud nation has become a nation of spineless idiots, unable to see what the gov't is doing to them. -- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again |
Shanzem
Minmatar DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.11.26 20:11:00 -
[74]
* The government can ban any groups it labels æterroristÆ (Terrorism Act 2000) * The government can monitor any and all private communication (Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000) * Armed forces can be deployed on UK soil in peacetime (Civil Contingencies Act 2004) * Property and assets can be seized without warning or compensation (Civil Contingencies Act 2004) * Spontaneous protest is now illegal around Parliament (Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005) * Without trial, any British citizen can be tagged, put under house arrest and banned from using the telephone or internet (Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005) * Any citizen can be imprisoned without charge for 28 days (42 days has passed the house of commons) (Terrorism Act 2006) * The executive can change any current legislation without consulting Parliament, with very few exceptions (Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006) * Arbitrary punishments with no legal precedents can be issued with little legal recourse, based on hearsay evidence ( Anti-Social Behaviour Act 2003) * British citizens can be extradicted to the United States with no evidence presented (Extradition Act 2003) * Compulsory identification for all British citizens, with an unlimited amount of details stored in a central database, which the private sector will have access to (Identity Cards Act 2006) * Upon arrest the police have claim to your DNA, even if you are released without charge (Criminal Justice Act 2003)
Wait so these do not violate my freedoms? -------------------------------------------
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Shanzem
Minmatar DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.11.26 20:12:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Arianhod Edited by: Arianhod on 26/11/2008 19:47:09
Originally by: Shanzem
Originally by: Stitcher
Some of your rights as a British citizen (per The Human Rights Act 1998):
thats was 30 years ago.
Epic Fail is Epic
Read my post above ^ -------------------------------------------
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Stitcher
Caldari Duty.
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Posted - 2008.11.26 20:40:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Dantes Revenge Note: The human rights act was drawn up by several countries working together. The UK was NOT the sole advocate. It's also worth a note that the UK gov't has been taken to the Human Rights Court on a number of occasions.
never said it WAS the sole advocate. The UK has indeed been taken to the Human Rights court.... so has EVERYBODY ELSE.
Quote: Please understand that the British INVENTED the concentration camps during the Boar war.
How does that reflect the modern UK, pray tell?
Quote: Not according to my wage packet but that's another matter. Also, try telling that to the people who have been forced to work for their dole money, forced to take jobs they are are far too overqualified for etc. Sounds like forced labour to me.
That's the employer's fault, not the government's or society's.
Quote: when you are charged with "Going Equipped" where the law does not have to prove intent but you have to prove your innocence. I believe "Innocent until proven guilty" has no part to play in this particular law and some others.
"Going equipped" means armed and concealing. If you're caught carrying a concealed weapon, then it is considered evidence of intent. That is not the same thing as presumed guilt.
Quote: Unless they can pin "Inciting a riot" on you.
Which must subsequently be proven in fair trial...
Quote: there are laws governing crowds that were brought in after the poll tax protests so that right has been eroded somewhat.
Specifically...? Oh, and you're forgetting the ones that guarantee the rights of a crowd member.
Quote: Except when one of the party is not a British citizen. My own experience of this prevented me from marrying my gf becausse she is not from the UK. Anywhere else in the world, you can marry on a tourist visa but in the UK, you have to purchase a special visa which costs 500 quid. You cannot marry while one of you is on a tourist visa. Although the right has not be removed, they are making damn sure they profit from interenet born relationships.
Maybe you should go marry her in HER country, then? The entire purpose of that law is to discourage the "Russian Brides" effect - see "freedom from slavery and forced labour".
Quote: Unless you are native to the country. An immigrant has far more rights than a resident which discriminates against the people native to this country in favour of someone who was not born in this country.
Bullsh*t. All UK residents have the exact same rights, regardless of country of birth.
Quote: You don't own property in the UK. All land is either owned by the church or the monarchy. If you check the laws properly, they can take it from you and don't even have to compensate.
1: "Land" and "property" are not the same thing. 2: Just because they can does not mean they will. 3: if they do... imagine the public response.
Quote: I was born here but spent a good deal of my life overseas. I've seen how the other half live and, trust me, it's far better than what we have to put up with. I am disgusted with the UK now. A once a proud nation has become a nation of spineless idiots, unable to see what the gov't is doing to them.
I've seen the "other half" as well (and not the tourist side), and I couldn't disagree more. You're blanket-quoting here - if you intend to persuade me or prove your point, you'd better start quoting specifics, because right now all I'm seeing is a disgruntled whiner who can't see what the government is doing FOR him.
You think we're bad? Try, ooh... Syria, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe, Congo... Hell even if we're looking for "milder" options, I'd still choose the UK over Brazil, Russia, China or even the USA.
Perfection is impossible - I'm not going to pretend that Britain is perfect, but we are among the very best on offer, and critically we have the political freedom to effect improvement. -
Captain Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Stitcher
Caldari Duty.
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Posted - 2008.11.26 21:18:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Shanzem * The government can ban any groups it labels æterroristÆ (Terrorism Act 2000)
It must first PROVE in court that the group in question are terrorists.
Quote: * The government can monitor any and all private communication (Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000)
Doing so requires consent from the courts.
Quote: * Armed forces can be deployed on UK soil in peacetime (Civil Contingencies Act 2004)
This has been the case since.... well, since long before 2004 at the very least. Besides given that there are very few people in the country who live more than fifty miles or so from an MoD base, I fail to see why this is a problem.
Quote: * Property and assets can be seized without warning or compensation (Civil Contingencies Act 2004)
They cannot, however, be seized without justification or purpose.
Quote: * Spontaneous protest is now illegal around Parliament (Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005)
planned, non-spontaneous protest however, is entirely legal. Any subject allowed, the only reason for this law is so that the police can be there to keep public order.
Quote: * Without trial, any British citizen can be tagged, put under house arrest and banned from using the telephone or internet (Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005)
There is a maximum period for which this is allowable, and those powers can only be invoked for the purpose of gathering evidence for fair trial.
Quote: * Any citizen can be imprisoned without charge for 28 days (42 days has passed the house of commons) (Terrorism Act 2006)
Agreed, this is deeply unpopular and I'm not a huge fan of it either. The longest anyone has been imprisoned without charge to date has been 12 days, IIRC. Nevertheless, somebody imprisoned under that act and then released without charge can sue the police.
Quote: * The executive can change any current legislation without consulting Parliament, with very few exceptions (Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006)
my rebuttal (taken from the text of the quoted act)
Quote: 21 Principles (1) Any person exercising a regulatory function to which this section applies must have regard to the principles in subsection (2) in the exercise of the function. (2) Those principles are thatù (a) regulatory activities should be carried out in a way which is transparent, accountable, proportionate and consistent; (b) regulatory activities should be targeted only at cases in which action is needed.
The highlighted section is the important bit.
Quote: * Arbitrary punishments with no legal precedents can be issued with little legal recourse, based on hearsay evidence ( Anti-Social Behaviour Act 2003)
Legal precedence is not a requirement, merely a facilitator. As for your use of the words "Arbitrary" and "hearsay"... prove it. From my angle, it looks like you're misrepresenting it.
Quote: * British citizens can be extradicted to the United States with no evidence presented (Extradition Act 2003)
That's entirely wrong. The extradition process to a category 1 territory involves an initial and extradition hearing before a judge first, with the judge being authorized to deny the extradition if they believe that the human rights of the person in question would be violated, or that the party requesting the extradition lack the legal authority to issue an arrest warrant.
Quote: * Compulsory identification for all British citizens, with an unlimited amount of details stored in a central database, which the private sector will have access to (Identity Cards Act 2006)
That information is already in the private sector anyway.
Quote: * Upon arrest the police have claim to your DNA, even if you are released without charge (Criminal Justice Act 2003
I fail to see the problem. If anything, that stockpiled DNA can be used to quickly and efficiently eliminate you from a list of suspects in future cases -
Captain Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Stitcher
Caldari Duty.
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Posted - 2008.11.26 21:32:00 -
[78]
*whew*, what a marathon.
Look, most of the stuff quoted above is standard criminal and judicial law across the whole world. I'm not a big fan of the "imprisoned without trial" thing either - I reckon the maximum term should be a week at the outside - but I don't see it as an infringement of my rights and liberties as a citizen.
If I'm honest, I'm worried by the paranoia being displayed here.
Sure, there ARE bent cops, and there ARE corrupt officials... but by and large the British legal and governmental system is one of the most effective in the world at limiting the damage they can do because, to paraphrase the act I quoted above, the whole process is transparent from top to bottom, and every minister, officer and official in the country is held accountable for their actions. The courts hold authority over parliament, not the other way round.
Don't believe me? Just look at the OPSI (that's the Office of Public Sector Information)
of course, the old question "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" arises, to which my response is this - So long as a majority of authority figures are honest (and I believe that the majority ARE honest) then the minority of corrupted ones are kept in check. Who watches the watchers? The other watchers do.
Now, I know what happens next - somebody is going to start accusing me of blind subservience to the people in charge. That's not the case at all - I've done my share of protesting, I've read up on my rights and freedoms as a citizen of this country. I'm well aware of its imperfections. I just believe that they're massively outweighed by the merits.
I'm a patriot, and I don't bloody CARE that that's damn near a bad word in modern British culture. I love my country. I count myself very lucky indeed to have been born here, to live here and to work here. It's not an unconditional love, though - Britannia has to give as much back to me as I give to her. Thus far, she has, and I'm yet to see any proof that this has changed, is changing or is going to change anytime soon.
And no, I'm not with the BNP. I vote Lib Dem, as a matter of fact. -
Captain Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Arianhod
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Posted - 2008.11.26 21:35:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Stitcher
And no, I'm not with the BNP. I vote Lib Dem, as a matter of fact.
Is it wrong that this man has earned more respect from me in the last 30 miniutes than many of my peers in RL have done in years?
Stitch, this is Kirjava from J.I.T a while back, o7 Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Originally by: Janu Hull You're making me tingly in the special places...
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Stitcher
Caldari Duty.
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Posted - 2008.11.26 21:42:00 -
[80]
Oh, hey! Good to see you again o7
Thanks for the compliment. Feel free to sling me an eve-mail in game. -
Captain Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
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Davina Braben
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Posted - 2008.11.26 21:47:00 -
[81]
Quote: Sure, there ARE bent cops, and there ARE corrupt officials... but by and large the British legal and governmental system is one of the most effective in the world at limiting the damage they can do because, to paraphrase the act I quoted above, the whole process is transparent from top to bottom, and every minister, officer and official in the country is held accountable for their actions. The courts hold authority over parliament, not the other way round.
Quoting for truth.
You guys whinging have no idea how good it is here compared to elsewhere.
Corruption is not the exception but the rule in a lot of places.
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Shanzem
Minmatar DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.11.26 21:53:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Stitcher Oh, hey! Good to see you again o7
Thanks for the compliment. Feel free to sling me an eve-mail in game.
ok reading everything you just typed (welp wall of text )
and you are correct. back to law class for me..
know any good books!? and good few posts -------------------------------------------
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Stitcher
Caldari Duty.
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Posted - 2008.11.26 21:57:00 -
[83]
uhmm... thanks. (man, that's like only the third time that's ever happened...)
I mostly just looked it all up on www.opsi.gov.uk . Hope it helps -
Captain Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Dantes Revenge
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.11.26 22:21:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Dantes Revenge on 26/11/2008 22:26:08
Originally by: Stitcher That's the employer's fault, not the government's or society's.
So it's now the employers fault that people on benefits are being forced into labour for their meagre handout? It's also the employers fault that people who are qualified for a certain job are being forced by gov't legislation to take a menial job or lose their benefits?
Quote: "Going equipped" means armed and concealing. If you're caught carrying a concealed weapon, then it is considered evidence of intent. That is not the same thing as presumed guilt.
Incorrect. "Going Equipped" also implies carrying an instrument such as a screwdriver with the intent to use it as a means to break into a property or to steal property. Since the law does not have to prove the intent that is implied, you are charged with providing your evidence for your innocence. I know this law well since my father was charged with it and got sentenced to 3 months in prison for carrying a screwdriver in his pocket. He had done a job on an electrical item for a friend some days back and forgot the small electrical screwdriver was in his inside jacket pocket. Having the item is not evidence of intent since it is circumstancial.
Quote: Specifically...? Oh, and you're forgetting the ones that guarantee the rights of a crowd member.
Wrong there since, as a security officer, I have witnessed the police moving a group on from a shopping mall because they "exceeded the number of people allowed in a gathering". Admitted they were causing s disturbance but that wasn't the law that was quoted.
Quote: Maybe you should go marry her in HER country, then? The entire purpose of that law is to discourage the "Russian Brides" effect - see "freedom from slavery and forced labour".
What a crock of ****. This law was specifically to make money on internet relationships. The same way as they force licenses on everything to make money from it, even my own security job. The same way that they are trying to get the ID card through which we will be forced to pay for ourselves whether we wanted one or not. TV, CB radio and a whole lot more... All licensed to generate more income.
Quote: Bullsh*t. All UK residents have the exact same rights, regardless of country of birth.
So I can claim racial discrimination can I? Let's see how far that manages to go in a court, that's providing it ever makes it to court. So many immigrants call the racist card every time they are rightfully sacked from a job that companies put up with them sleeping on the job, lateness and many other things to avoid a lengthy court case. If you're white and born in the UK, you're sacked without any recourse.
Quote: 3: if they do... imagine the public response.
Yup, it might actually make the papers but that's about all.
Quote: You think we're bad? Try, ooh... Syria, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe, Congo... Hell even if we're looking for "milder" options, I'd still choose the UK over Brazil, Russia, China or even the USA.
Or look for the far better options which makes up a good 80% of the rest of the world.
Quote: perfection is impossible -
At least we agree on something.
Quote: critically we have the political freedom to effect improvement.
Pity the gov't don't have the ability to see that improvement unless it aids their wallets.
-- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again |
Stitcher
Caldari Duty.
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Posted - 2008.11.26 23:10:00 -
[85]
1: First, I want you to find and quote the piece of legislation you claim forces a qualified individual into a menial job. I expect you will fail, because to the best of my knowledge no such legislation exists. Secondly, the lack of jobs for qualified individuals is the result of fluctuations in the private sector which the government have no control over. Blame the state of the economy if you like (which I personally blame on George W. Bush) but it's massively unreasonable to be blaming the government for a lack of private-sector jobs when the whole world's economy - not just that of the UK - is in poor shape.
2: Well, I'm sorry to hear that your father fell foul of this, but if I'm brutally honest, he should have been aware of the law and prepared accordingly. Screwdrivers are considered to be weapons for the purposes of that law, as well as potential breaking-and-entering tools. If you have them in a case, or at the bottom of a bag or something like that, then i's a very different matter to carrying it loose in your inside pocket. That said, I reckon your father might have a case for appealing the sentence - the way you describe it makes it sound to me like a miscarriage of justice. I do detect some rather considerable bias on your part however, so I don't exactly trust your opinion on the matter - It does take more than just having the screwdriver on you to secure a conviction because it is, as you pointed out circumstantial evidence. If your father was convicted, then some other evidence of intent must also have been presented.
3: Probably because it was a convenient law to use for the purpose of breaking up the public disturbance. The point here being, the group they cleared out was causing a disturbance - Surely it's best for the police to remove them from the mall than to leave them there to continue raising hell?
4: I'm pretty certain I've heard the exact same argument with regard to speed cameras, and it sounds just as paranoid there as well. The amount of money the government would earn off internet marriages is negligible. We're talking "print cartridges and note paper" small, here. It's a disincentive, not a money-making device - it ensures that the marriages are genuine and sincere, and does a fair bit to prevent human trafficking in "russian wives" by making it too expensive. When my cousin married her texan boyfriend, she went to Texas to do it - you could do something similar.
5: Bull, again. Yes, you can appeal. I agree, white folks can be racially discriminated against just like any other group, and the courts do and have recognized that fact in the past and forced employers to compensate unfairly sacked employees.
6: I can't argue with cynicism like this - you're too firmly entrenched that I doubt I can say anything to change your mind. I know that you're wrong, but I doubt I can convince you of that fact.
7: If you honestly believe that 80% of the world is better than here, then I urge you to go live there, if only so that you can learn just how very, VERY wrong you are. Personally, I reckon you'll only find "as good as" at best.
8: pure cynicism again with no substance to back it up. -
Captain Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
nahtoh
Caldari StrikerCorp Dark Trinity Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.26 23:17:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Voltain
Originally by: Reven Cordelle We train these officers and we pay obscene amounts for it. So why exactly do we question them every time they make a decision?
1. Because shooting that Brazilian guy just might have been the wrong one.
2. Because police racism interfered with an investigation into a black kids murder.
3. Because they shot a guy for carrying a table leg.
4. Because they ploughed their car into a woman who lived locally to me.
1. The fault for that one seemed to be with the op controllers IMO not the guys on the ground.
2. Possably overstated, but they should be gender/race/sexual pref/denomiation nuetral.
3. Sorry but this can be laid at the feet of the of the feckwits that thought calling up and reporeting a firearms incident was a "joke".
4. Don't know enuogh about it to comment.
========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
nahtoh
Caldari StrikerCorp Dark Trinity Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.11.26 23:25:00 -
[87]
Edited by: nahtoh on 26/11/2008 23:28:00
Originally by: Brea Lafail Edited by: Brea Lafail on 26/11/2008 01:48:45
Originally by: Davina Braben
Any shot other than a headshot is likely to give him chance to detonate his bomb. Shouting a warning will give him chance to detonate his bomb. He isn't going to surrender anyway because is a suicide bomber. Using Less-Than-Lethal means will give him chance to detonate his bomb. You can't wait and see because this is very likely his target. There have already been a string of bombings on public transport and this is an ideal time and location to set off a bomb to cause lots of casualties.
Gee, I dunno, maybe they coulda used all that expensive police training to grapple the guy so he couldn't move his arms? What evidence did they have to show he even had a bomb? I'd think that drugs would be much more likely. What next: "Im faaaiiiirly sure that's the killer *BAM* whoops, my bad, maybe that's him over there?"
P.S. Thanks for the link. Interesting read.
Fail...he could have had a deadmans switch (and if that was the case no matter what hapened theay are ****ed), could have been a simple button held in one hand. If they had to open fire they needed a complete nervese system shutdown. he should have been stopped before he got in the station. The failure was futher upstream than the poor bastards that pulled the trigger.
Whats missed is they on purpose ran towards what as far as they knew was a walking bomb, I feel for the guys family I really do. But the fact is the officers that took him down were trying to protect others...not just thinking "weehey we get to shoot someone woohoo". ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
nahtoh
Caldari StrikerCorp Dark Trinity Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.26 23:41:00 -
[88]
Oh yeah just to point out that yes I did sign up to protect MY country (even that english bit of it ).
I would however no longer do so (and its got nothing to do whith current conflicts). Yes the UK has a lot to be proud of that has happened in the past. But eh current government worry the total **** out of me. They do.
The sodding paranoid control freaks are in charge...not posting here. ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
Dantes Revenge
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.11.26 23:52:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Dantes Revenge on 26/11/2008 23:54:18
Originally by: Stitcher 1: First, I want you to find and quote the piece of legislation you claim forces a qualified individual into a menial job. I expect you will fail, because to the best of my knowledge no such legislation exists.
I bring to your attention from schnews.org.uk:
Quote: Attention all Jobseekers You thought the Job Seekers Allowance and Workfare were bad? Well those nice caring people in the gov't have found yet another way of saving a few quid. Contract for work is a new scheme planned that will effectively demolish the welfare state as we know it and extend workfare massively. Under contract work anyone who has been signing on for over two years will be handed over to a private company who will give you the equivalent of your dole for work. If you choose to leave the scheme or employment and turn up at the dole to sign on again you will be sent straight back to the private company. The scheme is soon to be on trial in London, Glasgow, Manchester and Leeds, there will be four schemes in operation two run by the private sector and two by employment services to see what has the best results, no prizes to those who guess which will come out on top, especially as the private sector is run purely for profit! So say bye bye Govt run Benefits and jobcentres and hello privately financed schemes
I believe this falls under the realm of 'forced labour'. Legislation is also being put through to make all those on unemployment benefit do Community Service for their benefits. Currently, this legislation has not yet been passed but is in the pipeline.
Quote: When my cousin married her texan boyfriend, she went to Texas to do it - you could do something similar.
I am doing that now. I am also arranging to remain once I get there, I've had enough of the UK.
I've actually seen it go downhill rapidly over the last 10 years or so. Lack of support from police and often they don't even respond to calls, victims having less rights than criminals, totally out of control kids who can't be punished due to child protection laws, low end offences being given hefty prison sentences while far worse offences get off with small prison terms. It's all getting too much now.
I earn 50% more per hour now and do 16 hours a week more than I did 10 years ago (40 to 56 hours) and yet, still take home the same amount. I can't see any way to earn a decent living. My hours go up, my hourly rate goes up but my take home pay remains the same. That means the tax rise is cancelling what little wage rise I get each year but prices still go up so it is getting more and more expensive to live.
-- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again |
Dr Slaughter
Minmatar Rabies Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.11.27 00:56:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Shanzem know any good books!? and good few posts
You won't go far wrong by starting with the Thomson Sweet & Maxwell 'Nutshells' books for a start but frankly most of the above is about reading comprehension and reading the fine print in the various acts and statutory instruments that accompany them. Not that interesting a past time unless you're interested if you see what I mean.
ps. To who-ever it was who mentioned it being difficult to get married to Russian brides (or some such), a friend ended up taking the IND to the high court and won. The IND/Home Office then took nearly 6 months to actually get round to issuing the suitable visa. They're unaccountable bastards and don't give a **** I'm afraid.
~~~~ There is no parody in this thread. Honest. |
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Eomar
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.27 01:18:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Dantes Revenge Edited by: Dantes Revenge on 27/11/2008 00:13:00
Originally by: Stitcher 1: First, I want you to find and quote the piece of legislation you claim forces a qualified individual into a menial job. I expect you will fail, because to the best of my knowledge no such legislation exists.
I bring to your attention from schnews.org.uk:
Quote: Attention all Jobseekers You thought the Job Seekers Allowance and Workfare were bad? Well those nice caring people in the gov't have found yet another way of saving a few quid. Contract for work is a new scheme planned that will effectively demolish the welfare state as we know it and extend workfare massively. Under contract work anyone who has been signing on for over two years will be handed over to a private company who will give you the equivalent of your dole for work. If you choose to leave the scheme or employment and turn up at the dole to sign on again you will be sent straight back to the private company. The scheme is soon to be on trial in London, Glasgow, Manchester and Leeds, there will be four schemes in operation two run by the private sector and two by employment services to see what has the best results, no prizes to those who guess which will come out on top, especially as the private sector is run purely for profit! So say bye bye Govt run Benefits and jobcentres and hello privately financed schemes
I believe this falls under the realm of 'forced labour'. Legislation is also being put through to make all those on unemployment benefit do Community Service for their benefits. Currently, this legislation has not yet been passed.
fundamental flaw in your argument being at no point are you forced to do it.
If you want money, you work for it.
end of.
Your rights do not, and never have, encompassed getting given money for nothing off the government.
Its a scheme I wholeheartedly support, there is an awful lot of work out there, people refuse to do it because they think its beneath them, or theyre too lazy and so on.
i think from day one of signing on the dole you should be required to be earning that money, whether it be sweeping streets and picking up litter, emptying bins in the dole office, maybe doing things like providing assistance to homeless shelters and cleaning hospitals.
Not only is it incentive to take on a job, ie why get dole money for doing **** jobs when you could get slightly better money for doing **** jobs. ...in accordance with the prophecy |
Stitcher
Caldari Duty.
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Posted - 2008.11.27 01:29:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Dantes Revenge
I bring to your attention from schnews.org.uk:
...
I believe this falls under the realm of 'forced labour'. Legislation is also being put through to make all those on unemployment benefit do Community Service for their benefits. Currently, this legislation has not yet been passed.
Hmm. Interesting stuff.
I'll need to do more research on that one: I'd not heard it before and your quoted source doesn't strike me as being entirely unbiased in its presentation. Interpret it another way, and it becomes a system for encouraging people off welfare and back into employment.
Your quoted source is making out as the Westminser fatcats trying to pinch every last penny they can back by forcing poor Johnny Unemployed into servitude. I notice however that the scheme only kicks in after two years on the dole, which to my eyes makes it a disincentive that tries to discourage able-bodied people from getting complacent with being signed on. Basically, it's saying "You're working anyway. Why not get an actual job that pays better than this?" and encouraging people back onto the employment ladder.
I've seen enough people who are just lazy - not stupid or anything, just lazy and selfish - who view the Dole as a free ride through life. These are able-bodied people with functioning brains who just sit around at home and live on the money the government gives them. I suspect that's what this legislation you're quoting is aimed at curbing.
Just my initial reaction, though. I'll be sure to say otherwise if I change my mind after taking a closer look.
Quote: I am doing that now. I am also arranging to remain once I get there, I've had enough of the UK.
Well, good luck and I wish you all happiness for the future. If you're not content here, at least you're doing something about it, and I really do hope it works out for you. I just think you're being pessimistic and cynical is all, and I doubt that you're going to find any other country to your liking either, with that attitude.
Still, it's your life - you go live it how you see fit. -
Captain Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Katy Moore
Amarr B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm
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Posted - 2008.11.27 03:45:00 -
[93]
the linky from schnews seems a bit old? 1997?
as for the working for benefits thingy from the Times site.
key points "Jobcentre Plus advisers will be given the power to require people to do full-time community work, in return for benefits, if they believe that they are playing the system."
Mr Purnell says. ôIf people refuse a reasonable offer of a job, then they start to break their obligations and could lose their benefits . . . We are not paying benefits until you find the perfect job.ö
Its not about forcing people to take menial jobs, it's about people who are on the fiddle. The JSA people aren't going to send people with degrees to stack shelves until they've been unemployed for long periods. If you're making the effort, applying for jobs, going to interviews and things, then you won't be forced to break rocks or whatever.
however, there's several things to be wary of. "The trade unions will also be angry about the proposals, on the basis that they will be a source of cheap labour for the Government."
Is a very real concern. The cleansing departments of local councils employ many people, who lets be honest, are nice enough people, but they're not really geniuses. However, it's a job, which pays more than minimum wage, and you can make a living with it, though not exactly luxury. I know this, because I worked with the council's parks&gardens service which is similar enough. As a driver, I was paid ú7.48 per hour for the nominally 37 hour week, though I had to do about 10 to 15 hours more per week in terms of vehicle checks, maintenance and whatever, which was unpaid.
Replacing those jobs with unemployed persons for the Jobseekers allowance of ú65 or whatever it is per week means a considerable saving for the council, in terms of wages (central gov. pays the JSA) and also pensions. It also means the men doing those jobs are out of work, but that's really the only work they can do. So the cleansing work ends up being done by the same men, but for no real money. Nice.
Motivating people to do work who don't want to be there is also very hard. On average, people on community service do a crap job of whatever task they've been assigned. I've worked with unemployed people, and you'll get one or two who are enthusaistic, but the rest really suck away at everyone else's motivation. Morale is rock bottom, and you think, Why should I bother? And they all seem to have lots of personal problems, which frankly I'm not qualified to deal with. When I'm driving the van for a squad of 6, the last thing I want to have to deal with is people's alcohol and drug problems.
There's a lot of jobs out there however, which are unfilled, but you have to ask yourself why. Lots of vacancies for security guards for example, but that's not a job that many people can do. Confrontation with potentially dangerous people? Lots of temporary jobs in agriculture in the summer, but temporary jobs aren't something you can make a living with.
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Constance Harme
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Posted - 2008.11.27 04:09:00 -
[94]
Originally by: EnslaverOfMinmatar you should get rid of your silly parliament andthe queen and then maybe we'll accept you as our 51 state
No thanks, I like the Queen.. you can take parliment.
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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari Terradyne Networks
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Posted - 2008.11.27 04:42:00 -
[95]
Can we get a footnote please?
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baltec1
R.U.S.T. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.11.27 11:07:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Dantes Revenge Edited by: Dantes Revenge on 26/11/2008 22:26:08
Originally by: Stitcher That's the employer's fault, not the government's or society's.
So it's now the employers fault that people on benefits are being forced into labour for their meagre handout? It's also the employers fault that people who are qualified for a certain job are being forced by gov't legislation to take a menial job or lose their benefits?
I have been on benefits while looking for a job and had to fight to get training and lost out on 3 jobs due to the job center being useless. One of them was a ú30k job I would have loved.
I can also safely say that 80% of the people I met in this time did not want a job and refused everything put before them. It sickens me to think that while I was struggling away to get employed these arsewipes were just sponging off the state.
Forcing them to get a job is good. I was aiming to get into climatology but have ended up doing security but I would rather be doing this than sponging off the state.
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Dr Slaughter
Minmatar Rabies Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.27 11:41:00 -
[97]
FFS 'forced labour' != 'government won't pay you your dole forever'
It's 'I will shoot you in the head/etc. if you don't do {whatever}'
~~~~ There is no parody in this thread. Honest. |
Stitcher
Caldari Duty.
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Posted - 2008.11.27 12:56:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Dr Slaughter ps. To who-ever it was who mentioned it being difficult to get married to Russian brides (or some such), a friend ended up taking the IND to the high court and won. The IND/Home Office then took nearly 6 months to actually get round to issuing the suitable visa. They're unaccountable bastards and don't give a **** I'm afraid.
It's called a "bureacracy" mate - they must process dozens if not hundreds of such requests per month. It sucks, but you just aren't ever going to get personal service from a government organization because they're having to deal with too many people.
It's not unaccountability, or bastardry, it's just that the system has to deal with too many people to give any individual the time and attention that individual feels they deserve. Sad but true. Some other countries have it worse, too. After all, we're only about sixty million people in the UK. Imagine the bureacratic nightmare that places like India and China (both of which have more than a billion citizens) must face. -
Captain Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Dr Slaughter
Minmatar Rabies Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.11.28 00:13:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 28/11/2008 00:14:53
Originally by: Stitcher
It's called a "bureacracy" mate - they must process dozens if not hundreds of such requests per month. It sucks, but you just aren't ever going to get personal service from a government organization because they're having to deal with too many people.
It's not unaccountability, or bastardry, it's just that the system has to deal with too many people to give any individual the time and attention that individual feels they deserve. Sad but true. Some other countries have it worse, too. After all, we're only about sixty million people in the UK. Imagine the bureacratic nightmare that places like India and China (both of which have more than a billion citizens) must face.
Whilst I broadly agree with your comments and assumptions, in this particular case:
1. The original interview was done in his wifes home country by someone working for the high commission who's caste was different from hers and he specifically 'had it in for her' from the start. 2. The IND didn't even bother to turn up to the court even after asking for and being granted a delay by the court to allow them to be present.
It was very much an unaccountable process, the original interviewer was never reprimanded, the Judge openly criticised the IND but it then took nearly 6 months for them to actually act on the courts order. Nothing was done to reprimand the IND for that either.
The 'process' took nearly 2 years and I stand by my remark of calling the people/department involved unaccountable bastards who don't give a ****.
The IND is a unaccountable faceless bureacracy run by facist automatons who have less than a tea spoon of compassion between them.
They might go into it as decent people but they certainly don't seem to stay that way from what I've seen. Is it the volume and stress of their job? Probably. Do I blame individuals? Not really. Do I blame their management, hell yes.
~~~~ There is no parody in this thread. Honest. |
Xen Gin
Universal Mining Inc Forged Dominion
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Posted - 2008.11.28 00:23:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Xen Gin on 28/11/2008 00:25:03 Funny thing is, because the government got my brother, his missus and their two kids a house, if they go back to work they will have to pay rent, but because the council tax and rent has gone up so much, they cannot find jobs to cover the rent. If they attempt to work more than 18 hours a week, the government will make them homeless.
This is why some people have no choice to stay on JSA and Child Benefits.
Also, any officers carrying tasers should be highly trained, and be subject to the same rules as armed officers.
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Captain Hudson
Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.11.28 00:57:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Captain Hudson on 28/11/2008 00:59:05 Does Dante assume its a given right to have the govenment/tax payer give him money for doing nothing?
Im all for taking the dole money away after two years and council houses from them, being unable to find a job in two years is a joke.
Iv found him |
Glarion Garnier
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.11.28 07:09:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Glarion Garnier on 28/11/2008 07:11:44
Originally by: Captain Hudson Criminals have tasers,guns,knives and all sorts of weapons they love to unleash on you for stepping on their shoes or because they like your mobile phone. Now the police have pepper spray and a trunchon, is it any wonder no one fears them?
People cry about a lack of police, its because 5 of them have to spend 10 minutes trying to handcuff someone who has had to much to drink or simply wants to cause more trouble, one zap will sort them out and the other 4 can go out and catch more of them..
This is the ressult that happens way too often. I have seen a video where a guy who had mental dissorder and needed medication was tasered 12 times to death.
then we have this: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VqdUhotL6Fw
Those are just a few incidents in the ever increasing numbers of deaths caused by tasers.
If you dont understand! Facism get's implemented step by step. Beeing wary is not stupid.
_________________________________ -be vary of the men behind the curtain-
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Captain Hudson
Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.11.28 08:44:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Glarion Garnier Edited by: Glarion Garnier on 28/11/2008 07:11:44
Originally by: Captain Hudson Criminals have tasers,guns,knives and all sorts of weapons they love to unleash on you for stepping on their shoes or because they like your mobile phone. Now the police have pepper spray and a trunchon, is it any wonder no one fears them?
People cry about a lack of police, its because 5 of them have to spend 10 minutes trying to handcuff someone who has had to much to drink or simply wants to cause more trouble, one zap will sort them out and the other 4 can go out and catch more of them..
This is the ressult that happens way too often. I have seen a video where a guy who had mental dissorder and needed medication was tasered 12 times to death.
then we have this: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VqdUhotL6Fw
Those are just a few incidents in the ever increasing numbers of deaths caused by tasers.
If you dont understand! Facism get's implemented step by step. Beeing wary is not stupid.
where can i get some of what your smoking please
Iv found him |
Dr Slaughter
Minmatar Rabies Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.28 10:44:00 -
[104]
Heh. I wonder if they threatened that tory MP with tasers or his westminster assistant!
~~~~ There is no parody in this thread. Honest. |
Voltain
BEER Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.28 10:54:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Dr Slaughter Heh. I wonder if they threatened that tory MP with tasers or his westminster assistant!
Was thinking the same thing, that's my local MP that is
DesuSig |
Stitcher
Caldari Duty.
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Posted - 2008.11.28 12:22:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Glarion Garnier This is the ressult that happens way too often. I have seen a video where a guy who had mental dissorder and needed medication was tasered 12 times to death.
Care to link that one? Rule 11 of the internet applies here - pics or it didn't happen.
Quote: then we have this: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VqdUhotL6Fw
So... a video of a guy choking to death because a heavy man was kneeling on his throat is proof that tasers are dangerous?
Far as I can tell, the taser was correctly and safely used - it was the way they went about restraining him afterwards that killed that man. -
Captain Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
jason hill
Caldari Clan Shadow Wolf Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.28 12:45:00 -
[107]
sheesh i just cannot believe what the cops did to that tory mp 9 counter terrorist cops raiding his home then they hold home for 9 hrs .just for doing his job... this place is turning into zimbabwe.I hope the cops have got good lawyers
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Katy Moore
Amarr B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm
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Posted - 2008.11.28 15:31:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Captain Hudson being unable to find a job in two years is a joke.
Not in some places. Large cities, yes, there should be jobs available.
Some places though, the Jobcentre is filled with vacancies, but they're for skilled and experienced jobs. For the unskilled people that are most commonly unemployed, that's no use.
The way the system works is a joke. If you're on JSA and claiming housing benefit, you're better off than if you're doing a job on minimum wage, because once you're working, you lose the benefits faster than you get income from working. That is ridiculous. Especially when it's a married couple. As far as I remember, one of them starts working, and the other can't claim. If you're not married, it's different, I think.
When the minimum wage was less than ú5 a while back, I looked at the numbers. For a person in a council house (cheapest rent), it worked out that for the normal 37 hour per week job, it was about ú6 per hour before you were better off working than claiming JSA. Worse if you had family of course. And the vast majority of jobs at the Jobcentre were for ú5 or ú5.50 per hour. Not good enough.
Now there's the self-esteem that comes from being in work, but still, it's ridiculous that the benefits system provides an incentive to not work. Needs reform so that you don't lose housing benefit as quick for example.
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Xen Gin
Universal Mining Inc Forged Dominion
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Posted - 2008.11.28 16:15:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Xen Gin on 28/11/2008 16:18:10
Originally by: Katy Moore
Originally by: Captain Hudson being unable to find a job in two years is a joke.
Not in some places. Large cities, yes, there should be jobs available.
Some places though, the Jobcentre is filled with vacancies, but they're for skilled and experienced jobs. For the unskilled people that are most commonly unemployed, that's no use.
The way the system works is a joke. If you're on JSA and claiming housing benefit, you're better off than if you're doing a job on minimum wage, because once you're working, you lose the benefits faster than you get income from working. That is ridiculous. Especially when it's a married couple. As far as I remember, one of them starts working, and the other can't claim. If you're not married, it's different, I think.
When the minimum wage was less than ú5 a while back, I looked at the numbers. For a person in a council house (cheapest rent), it worked out that for the normal 37 hour per week job, it was about ú6 per hour before you were better off working than claiming JSA. Worse if you had family of course. And the vast majority of jobs at the Jobcentre were for ú5 or ú5.50 per hour. Not good enough.
Now there's the self-esteem that comes from being in work, but still, it's ridiculous that the benefits system provides an incentive to not work. Needs reform so that you don't lose housing benefit as quick for example.
Its the same for unmarried couples living together. It's all treated as Couples and Civil Partnerships now. Link
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