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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.12.01 06:27:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 01/12/2008 06:31:08 next time use normal setups not some weirdos out from your anus
Most megas i know run with neutrons + 2 magstabs + 5 hvy drones (plates + rr). Geddons are slowly moving away from 3 sinks to 2 just to fit another plate (so it is actually DD resistant). Gang torp raven will move with 6x siege2 + 3-4x bcu (depends if they want hvy neut or no).
So now suddenly at perfect transversal setups hit much harder. Im not sure about total raven DPS coz i CBA to count final value atm.
Small hint: BS are not solo ships. not anymore.
EDIT: also its quite funny how "but ze data shows hype is bad at dealing DPS" and on TQ they actually come out as highest damage dealers abt 50% of the time
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.12.01 07:44:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
CCP didn't make it easier to do 'guerrilla warfare'. Small groups are still going to die vs. large blobs. All they did was make it damned near useless to go solo.
If you wanted to make "solo setups" you should've shown it better in OP. And raven is almost useless solo. Any HAC worth its money will just kill you without bigger problems AB or no, doesnt matter if you run cruises or torps. I can agree it is good vs BS (tho i wouldnt use PWNAGE but painter drones instead).
But like i said: solo is dead and was dead for quite a while now. So ships will not be balanced for 1v1 which happens once in a blue moon but for gang warfare. Otherwise you might still say that AFs are overpowered.
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2008.12.20 10:57:00 -
[3]
The figures above mean you dont play on TQ and have no clue. You can screw numbers as much as you want and in the end of the day hype will kill all geddons in 1v1 (unless hype has crap fit). Hell even in 2v2 they can still win with overheat for a bit.
So no, its not only about damage but also keeping decent tank (be it passive or active) while sporting that damage, keeping mobility, tackle and everything else. Unless you plan on "but this is gang fit" then i up tier with Falcon alt and you lose no matter what :)
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2008.12.20 13:15:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 20/12/2008 13:16:30 Ok ill make it short:
typical engagement range is 24km (disruptor range). Do blasters cover (ie: have an advantage) in around 50% of this range?
Quote: So from 0-5km the geddon does 0-300 the hype does 0-430. (+130) From 5-10km the geddon does 300-400km the hype does 430-390. (+130/-10) From 10-15km the geddon does 300-360 the hype does 250--300. (-50/-60) from 15-20 the geddon does 360-350 the hype does 300-270. (-60/-80) from 20-25 the geddon does 300-280 the hype does 270-200. (-30/-80)
So from your post: yes they do cover 50% of this range as dominant weapon. So where is the issue?
EDIT: also how the hell geddon does more damage in 5-10km range rather than 10-15km? 99% of the geddons will not have web thus tracking is main factor here. And as both ranges are in multifrequency reach (optimal) then longer range should give better damage due to reduced transversal. Explain.
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2008.12.20 20:41:00 -
[5]
Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 20/12/2008 15:09:12
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Ok ill make it short:
typical engagement range is 24km (disruptor range). Do blasters cover (ie: have an advantage) in around 50% of this range?
The engagement range of 1 v 1 is 0-24km the engagement range of gang combat can be much greater for the dmg dealers as the tacklers and dictors are the only ships that need to close to inside 24km.
Welcome to my trap: why you dont whine that rails outdamage blasters at distances: 20-25 25-30 30-35 35-40 ... 240-245 245-249 ? As you said engagement range of gang combat can be much greater and only ships required in 24km sphere can beintys and dictors.
And if you still want to include lasers - they are MID range weapon. Like 20-100km range one - thus why are you whining they deal most damage at their prefered combat range?
Quote:
Originally by: Deva Blackfire also how the hell geddon does more damage in 5-10km range rather than 10-15km?
It is not my graph its gourmindongs although the dropoff inside 10km for the hype is due to the range of its ammo, this is also a issue that effects its ratio when you over heat webs as the lasers get a bonus 3km x 2.4 (7.2km "real space" according to gourm) where they hit for max dmg while the hype is into dmg fall off due to its range limitations.
And if you include the 1km inside 10km (shown on gourms graph) as well it is 4.33 x 2.4 and that is almost 10.4+km of max dmg for the lasers (13.3 to 9km x 2.4 = 10.4km+) while the hype is doing rather less due to range issues.
I was asking why lasers deal more damage at 5-10 than at 10-15 (according to info i quoted) wheras they should (and they do) deal exactly SAME damage at those distances.
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2008.12.21 01:07:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/12/2008 01:10:18
Originally by: maralt
Because rails are not short range systems like pulse, ac and blasters.
Neither are pulses. Welcome to MID range (like in medium: between LONG and SHORT).
Quote:
While pulse do match the dmg of blasters and even exceed them in parts of that 0-20km range while also out damaging them from around 10-30km and out ranging them utterly at 30km-60km+.
And still they do have parts in which they are outdamaged and outtracked. Plus check ships which use them and how well they fit mwd+web+scram+injector combo. I hope you manage to fit them on geddon. And if you say that fittings/ships are not important - what stops you from fitting lasers on your mega/hype? You will get same DPS as apoc does (no damage bonus) at same ranges.
Quote:
PS: Your so called trap couldn't catch the clap in a cheap brothel.
Reverting to smack coz your arguments are flawed? Like told you above: if you dont like blasters train for lasers. Both systems are perfectly viable in their own niches - its up to you to find how to use weapon instead of whining so CCP changes it to fit your way. Unless you really want to get another surprise like all caldari "nerf nano" newbs did. I guess as soon as you get damage boost you will get hit on tracking and then you will whine again to "fix" stuff.
Quote: Either way, my point still stands. When you are in a gang, and you have the ability to maintain your range through your tacklers tackling, why would you want a Mega? You are never going to be a sphere of engagement where all targets are conviently in a 10km sphere, you'll be MWD'ing from target to target, and burning cap doing so. While lasers can sit at 30+ km, and shift targets and ammo within seconds, continuing to deliver peak DPS at all times.
When you fight rr vs rr gang you will sit in 10km sphere due to range of large RR's on battleships. And in this case the more DPS you deal the better (while keeping RR power ofc).
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2008.12.21 12:39:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/12/2008 12:39:54
Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 21/12/2008 09:51:35
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Neither are pulses. Welcome to MID range (like in medium: between LONG and SHORT).
If it is a "MID" range system it should not almost match and out damage blasters at almost all close ranges and it does.
And just because 1 of the laser ships has minor troubles fitting a MWD/point/web/injector is no justification either as only the MWD and injector are the really "must have" modules in gang combat for that sort of combat as the tackling can be done by other ships.
So what exactly stops you from tackling hostiles and then using covops to warp straight onto them? You wanted gang warfare yet you still ignore other gang warfare styles of play. its not only "damage+tacklers" its also covops for warpins/warpouts, ewar etc. You always bring "lasers + tacklers" to the table - i bring "blasters+warpins". Problem solved for you.
Quote:
Originally by: Deva Blackfire And if you say that fittings/ships are not important - what stops you from fitting lasers on your mega/hype? You will get same DPS as apoc does (no damage bonus) at same ranges.
So your using the nano is not overpowered cos you can match it with nano argument?...maybe you should mention that argument to gourm he will love it.
Nanos got nerfed yet i still use old polycarbed setups and still dont lose ships. Hell - even while using normal setups (armor tanked ishtar, no rigs) i dont lose ships - maybe then you should learn how to pilot em instead of whining about setups? Like i said many times - i can win with worse setup (unless its totally screwed) because im better pilot rather than better EFT warrior.
Quote:
Ignoring the fact that amarr ships PG START at around 19000-21000 and the lasers take up around 500pg each more than blasters. While gallente ships have considerably less PG (hyperion has the most at 15750)....you suggest such a stupid idea in the same post as you try preaching about fitting constraints???...
So maybe next time look how good active tanks i can mount on my laser ships. And you will see that amarr passive tank 90% of the time due to... fitting issues (and passives being better for most of the time anyways). Also you have that nice RCU module, why not fit it?
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.01.19 16:42:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 19/01/2009 16:43:03
Originally by: Murina
You have in this and other threads claimed that amarr BS should virtually rule all gang pvp and no other race should come close, and complaining about the imbalance is stupid cos ppl made the choice NOT to train amarr when they first joined eve.
Wait wait wait.
1-3 years ago when i asked how can i fly my geddon i heard "lul, go fly in a gang, train mega/pest for solo". Suddenly people started to use gangs more. Amarr ships didnt change nor did their weapons but gameplay changed and people started flying WAY more gangs. And suddenly my "lul gang only kiddo" ship started to shine in "gang only" combat. And now you whine that "amarr shouldnt be best in gang warfare"?
You had your "solo/small gang" time when there werent many people in game. Now with 300+ player fleets bashing each other "gang ships" shine. Gang ships = amarr.
And yes amarr "role" is being gang damage dealer. They are slow, weak sensors, low amount of mids. All amarr can do is sit there and fire. And they do this well. So what would you like them to do instead? Use ewar? Nano around? |
Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.01.19 20:14:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 19/01/2009 20:17:42 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 19/01/2009 20:14:45
Originally by: Murina
As per usual when emo is involved you are confusing a fix to a system that is overpowered compared to the others of that type as the same as making it useless or second rate, nobody is saying that at all but the gap between races is to wide and needs narrowing.
But exactly WHAT made them overpowered? There was supposedly some tracking boost but for all i care pulses could lose what they got before - and they will STILL be best at med ranges. Only because current game evolved and its not centered around 1-3 ship gangs but 30-300 ones.
Resist nerf? Works all round for all weapon systems using EM/explo damage. Plus for high damage ammo its only 12,5% boost in effective damage (considering 50/50 em/thermal ratio). So what else?
As for quoting marks - if you read my post you should see i use em as emphasis not quoting. |
Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.01.19 21:22:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Goumindong Its not worth it Deva. They want blasters to be best till 15km-20km. They don't care what is balanced, they just want blasters to be the best option for weapons until you start sniping.
Ye i know :) Myself i would boost blasters by like 5% and large ACs by 7-10% DPS but thats it (and in mean time kicked some DPS off 200mm small ACs). |
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.01.19 21:52:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 19/01/2009 21:52:17
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Quote: Resist nerf? Works all round for all weapon systems using EM/explo damage
Hybrids don't do EM/expl damage, so they were not affected at all.
I stated "weapon systems using EM/explo damage". So hybrids got ruled out.
Quote:
Missiles are not affected much, as you won't shoot EM at armor tankers. They have a slight boost as you now can kill shields with ex slightly better.
Actually unless ship tanks omni (EANM/ANP) then EM is lowest armor resist. Its also one of lowest resists on t2 armor tankers (only minmatar get natural resist on armor to EM but they shieldtank, rest of ships as soon as they use 2x explo hardener have EM as lowest).
Quote:
For projectiles, the change meant equally little against armor tankers as you still want Fusion. It did have some effect in the t2 area, because now you are generally better off shooting EMP at most T2 ships than any other ammo type.
RF EMP all the way. Or barrage. Anyways just check what ammo people use - and it will be those i posted.
@ Goum: im still forgetting Pest has 75m3 not 125m3 bay.
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