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Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.12.03 11:29:00 -
[1]
I was just wondering with the quite obvious downhill of the mac client that where is the line where legally/morally the product we are paying doesn't fulfill the order.
Can CCP still sell their product as long as you can only install it, or are there statistics that one has to be able to play the game for 9h a day and the agreement is valid? At the moment we have at least a few players that can't play the game and they are still paying for it.
I don't was this to become a "this is not what we pay for" thread, but more of an statement from us and CCP that where goes the line for a commercial product and prototype. Stop whining. |
Soleramnus
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.12.03 14:17:00 -
[2]
Probably when we stop playing and boycott the EVE client. Whichà if we're interested in any EVE client at all, probably will not help.
If I can help them make the client better for all of us, I'd like to try. Though I share your frustration.
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Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.12.03 15:53:00 -
[3]
Just to clarify, my client does work. Well if you don't count the keyboard/voice/no status/occasional crash/memory leak/weapon grouping/performance/lack of premium it's just marvellous!
Reply and a statement on this would naturally also put and end to all those "we want our money back" whines where the EULA/CCP would directly state that if you can play at least 2h a day then you can shovel your whines into a place where sun doesn't shine.
I'm just worried that the client is at the moment a epic piece of trouble (it's buggy and CCP probably curses the day they decided to support macs) and with enough trouble to even get the classic client to work (and at the moment it definitely isn't "working") soon there will the premium client (hope...) and with that one being EVEN MORE complicated I'm not feeling too secure about playability in the upcoming times.
I'm rather confident that even CCP doesn't qualify unplayability as a value for your money. IF Eve had singleplayer mode and we would only pay for the game once, this would be a another matter. The MMO side would only be a add-on or perhaps a bonus. One wouldn't have "paid" for it. Eve is a MMO and we pay for our online time and it's quite clear that we are not getting our moneys worth when you can't play/log on.
I do relate that bugs that don't deny your gaming only the experience aren't what this discussion is about. If i can't use weapon grouping...boohoo, but i can still play the game. Of course CCP might have the easy way out "if you can train your skills, then you are getting value". Which as horrible as it sounds...might be the easy way out. If you are training, you are playing.
Stop whining. |
Soleramnus
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.12.03 16:47:00 -
[4]
If you're concerned about the client getting booted altogether, I think you're safe. They've already invested the development costs, the partnerships, the PR, etc.ùpulling out now would be the worst business strategy, regardless of the state of the client. That said, if you believe the client is going to be in a consistent state of disrepair and two-years-behind-ness, I think things are a bit more founded. The best we have is that they're "working on it" , but at least we are assured of that.
Unfortunately I have no idea if there's any international law that would allow you to rightfully get a sort of "refund," as it's obvious one way or another you're dissatisfied with the playing experience. I think a lot of us are, compared to what Windows users have.
For now I'm just trying to bide my patience, knowing I can revert to bootcamp if I really have to. Though I seriously dislike that option, and it would make me reconsider my subscription.
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Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.12.03 18:02:00 -
[5]
I'm not worried about the mac client getting booted (although I do think CCP is cursing the "birth" of mac client).
The laws that are behind the consumer usually depend on the promises and functionalities that the product is supposed to have. Basically this means that if you buy a phone, you should be able to call with it. Unless there are statements that say "Unless you live in this country etc. There is no support". A good example with the mac client is the MacBook Air. You "can" run Eve on it, but it's not supported so if someone whines about it not working, it's not enough for a refund. Although if you have the minimun requirements they game says it needs, then it should run. If not, it's a false promise and you can return the product.
With Eve it's quite tricky, because there really isn't a product to give back. Only a refund of time. I personally haven't heard a single time of CCP giving back money or refunding with for example more gametime (which is worth money).
Basically CCP has already screwed up the promises of their product. They had a ad in the trailer that said mac users would have a premium client. Of course this hasn't happened so one could already argue about the product description. Not sure if "in the works" qualifies as in the legal run. Pretty sure there is a timelimit for it. Of course all these laws are tied to the country from where CCP is registered. Although I'm not sure if international selling forces for international laws (with the exception of US and Asia, which are probably under different laws of commercialism).
I would guess that with games the laws would pretty much follow a path of: if you have the hardware and software that meets the minimal requirements you should be able to play. With online games internet connection are also needed (again the minimal requirements). As for any products there are always degree of buffers for functionality. Usually these include recommended requirements. To get the so called "premium experience" of a product.
Bugs are probably covered by the laws as acceptable as long as they don't hinder the complete functionality of a product. Wear and tear works in a similar fashion (of course how to implement than into software... well perhaps the memory leak could be counted as wear and tear).
I for one would think that a game where one can't play it with a computer that meets the minimum requirements and is officially supported should be a automatic refund of some sorts. Depending on the nature of the product a 1%-20% refund might be correct and if the problem continues to hinder the gaming experience then a 100% refund would be in order due to the product not working as it has been sold.
If I go and buy a fridge and it doesn't work. The first thing the seller can do is to repair it (they don't have to get a new one, they are allowed to fix it) and this has a certain timelimit (which i have no idea what that could be for software). If that doesn't work the customer can demand a new product. If there is no new product the client has every right to break the deal and get his/her money back.
Customers have a lot of laws behind them. Sellers have very few, but most of them rely on repairing the product and thus can demand the customers to wait for the repairs. It would be interesting to know if bugs are under the repair part of the law. Or are they just bad luck boohoo. Pay up or beat it. Even more interesting is that one can't stop the gametime in the middle and get the money back from the last few days after you stopped playing. Of course this might be a tricky with CCP selling their own gametimecards and for example shatteredcrystal selling their own. Stop whining. |
Ami Nia
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.12.03 19:43:00 -
[6]
One problem with this is that you pay for the right to connect to the server but you do not pay anything for the client. Plus you have 14 days trial, which is longer than the 7 days right to return a product for full refund that most consumer protection laws prescribe. Besides refunds may have a "processing fee" whose magnitude is similar to the cost of a 1 month subscription. Put those together and it will make any basis for a refund pretty weak.
A refund of a GTC will be much more difficult than a refund for a c/c subscription straight from CCP.
The stronger ground for a refund action is probably if you pre-paid by c/c for several months and they introduce new issues unrelated to new functionality and refuse to address/rollback them.
Military experts call it a Templar, a fighter drone used by Amarr carriers. -- Sheriff Jones
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Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.12.03 20:16:00 -
[7]
Yes, you have the 14-day trial, but we also get bigger patches that are client changing (not just a few bug fixes). So basically to keep the "trial" they would have to give us a 14-day (or 7-day) trial period after every major patch. Specially now with all the performance patches that pretty much broke down the mac client. Of course one can argue what is a new "product", but when game mechanics and performance of the client are changed one could pretty much say it's a "different product". Hazy line though. Naturally we don't pay for those upgrades, because we pay for the gaming experience achieved from connecting to the servers and the eve-world. With this one can say that the eve-world itself is the product, not the end-user software. Even if one can't connect doesn't change the fact that the world is there (thus ability to train your character could be a legal loophole to give value for your money) and it's alive.
You are right that the biggest problem are the "i paid already for 6 months and now it's broken!" issues. Which pretty much is the main issue at the moment. Of course because you pay for gametime in advance it doesn't really matter if it's days or months. Same thing. Although it would be interesting to know if one could have avoided this legal niche by going from 90day cards to 60day...
It would be a suicide for any company not to know and make these EULA's. Still at least I don't know of any borders concerning this issue. Pretty sure we should be informed about these while buying the product. Stop whining. |
Aricaan
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.12.09 00:36:00 -
[8]
Have you ever yawned so hard that you accidently gleeked on your monitor?
This thread did that for me.
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Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.12.09 04:55:00 -
[9]
but you still read it. Have a looksie at the Christmas patch notes and then come back to his thread to speak about mac love Stop whining. |
Annie Maye
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Posted - 2008.12.09 08:10:00 -
[10]
Not all people are having horrible performance issues with the MAC client. I'm able to run 3 clients of eve simultaneously. I've also used two clients during the MAX campaign up in Deklein during the massive 400 vrs 400 blobbageness. All this being on my MBP <3
-A
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Maria Kalista
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Posted - 2008.12.09 08:21:00 -
[11]
And hey! According to the dev blog we might even get a performance boost downgrading back to Windgooze XP and using the Premium client.
...oh, wait.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal You put a bear in your tea???
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Verite Rendition
Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Elitist Cowards
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Posted - 2008.12.09 15:33:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Maria Kalista And hey! According to the dev blog we might even get a performance boost downgrading back to Windgooze XP and using the Premium client.
...oh, wait.
If nothing else, I do expect that the QR 1.0.3 patch will bring a performance boost to the Mac EVE client. It's not going to fix any of our bugs (those are all in Cider) but as I've explained for some time, the Mac EVE client is stupidly CPU limited. Concurrently, the UI is one of the biggest CPU drains in the game, and for whatever reason that seems even more the case on the Mac client. Speeding up the UI (read: making it burn less CPU time) will directly translate in to higher Mac client performance. ---- FREE Explorer Lead Megalomanic EVE Null-Sec Player Influence Map http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Veritefw/FWinf |
Maria Kalista
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Posted - 2008.12.09 16:05:00 -
[13]
Then why do they make it look like its only a windows platform boost patch? I would happily jump up & down for any bone they can trow at us. But it just looks like, again, and again, that they have gone silent on us, again.
I'm getting so tired of this after 1+ year. Then again I shouldn't complaining the Linux dudes get even *less* attention.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal You put a bear in your tea???
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Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.12.09 20:41:00 -
[14]
Indeed. Looking at the patch notes there is no mention of anything other than Windows issues that are specifically being fixed. General Eve fixes do affect us others too, but it's always clear that there are those + win specific. In the past they even "oh, we forgot to add the mac details on the patch". That's saying a lot.
But...I guess that's how it will work. Others get boosts and we don't even get fixes.
At the moment the only think I can do is AFK on Eve and hope the keyboard works. I have enough GTC's untill the 20th and after that... no point in AFKing and paying for a game that's at the moment impossible for me to play as it should. Stop whining. |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.12.09 22:51:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 09/12/2008 22:54:34 I'm not concerned about anything financial concerning my account with EVE Online.
As I play both Mac and Windows versions... sometimes simultaneously.
It is disturbing to see that they are taking there sweet time in getting it done.
What the blithering hell is the hold up? I mean seriously.
how could they afford NOT to finish this up?
And top that off with the fact my little bit of research indicates that the "Mac Client" is really not a "Mac Client" but a Windows Classic Client slapped in a metaphorical WINE bottle/virtual environment.
I will say this much.... its obvious someone is taking interest as they are dumping a ton of data on transgaming... this firm that was mentioned some time ago about finishing up the premium content of EVE. Which is likely a very good thing... at least someone cares enough to track it. So long as they don't breech privacy : O P
Personally I have one thing to say to all the whiners and complainers....
Shut UP
Seriously.... get it through your thick skull... its obvious its not finished... so throwing a fit won't help.
Stop asking for something that your not going to get.... you won't get anything from CCP. They will give it to you when they want it.
You chose to pay for this subscription.... you can just as easily cut it off.
You won't get any refunds either.... your paying for a service.... not for the client.
The client is FREE.... I'm able to freely move between the dreaded winblows world and the mac without hassel.. you can too.
What about your lost time you say? You chose to invest it... they aren't liable for that. So don't waste your breath.
Sorry to be so "Terse" but thats a fact.
If you wan't to play eve that a badly... go get a windows tower and use it strictly for gaming.
Don't fool yourself.... we windows clients also have our share of troubles too.
CCP isn't cursing the Mac's exsistance.... they are likely more concerned with other issues right now. Keep in mind the Mac has come a long long ways in the last 5 years... what used to be a daunting grand canyon leap.. is now a trench.
You need to be patient.... and you need to give it time. People who stick around for the long haul and help CCP with the debuging and beta testing of this client... so to speak... will likely gain a great deal of respect and pride over the effort spent in getting it this far.
It's also very possible they will yank it.... bad move IMHO... but we can't control it.
honestly I'm betting they will come through... so I'm gonna stick around.
My EVE Client on my Macbook Pro runs fine.... to a point. I wouldn't rely on it in a heavy fight for sure.... but it works to my needs for now.
There's my 02 ISK And an apple on the table for yah. Have faith.... things are looking up.
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Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.12.10 06:09:00 -
[16]
At least I'm not so upset about the lack of premium, i'm just amazed how we don't even get fixes for working keyboards and Eve voice. We still have the same frigging bugs that cause problems to the gameplay...that we had last year!
I know not all these issues are CCP's fault, but some of these issues can be worked around and they haven't. They are just waiting for a 3rd party miracle. Thus it seems it's not going to happen anytime soon. Stop whining. |
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