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NupetietVer Neuro Cartographic Services	Posted - 2008.12.04 13:43:00 - [1] Why do people feel the need to sell/buy over me by 1 cent when it takes 100 ISK to modify an order?
Niedar MASS	Posted - 2008.12.04 13:56:00 - [2] Because they can.
Juyfne	Posted - 2008.12.04 13:56:00 - [3] Depends... 1. They can make that 100isk back easily if it's a high volume item, like trit. Sell 10k units at .01isk less and they paid for the modification. 2. They just want to move the item. Money wrapped up in an item that isn't moving is money going to waste. 3. Because tradertears fuel their market orders. Some people like to fight in space, some prefer market pvp. It's not about the money, it's about keeping you from selling your goods.
Jonas DaVerde	Posted - 2008.12.04 13:57:00 - [4] And spending 101 isk to modify order is better than spending 102 isk.
Daelin Felagund Caldari Radikus Industries	Posted - 2008.12.04 14:15:00 - [5] Originally by: NupetietVer Why do people feel the need to sell/buy over me by 1 cent when it takes 100 ISK to modify an order? Yeah, it's a real PITA ... but you have to think of it in terms of your profit. Any quantity you manage to buy or sell at price +.01 / -.01 is material YOU have bought or sold, and thus profited off of, instead of your opponent - and it's better profit for you than if you had done it at price +x / -x (where x > .01).
Callista Omenswarm Astronautical Engineering	Posted - 2008.12.04 14:29:00 - [6] Short answer: People are dumb. This is a topic that comes up a lot, do a search through the forum and you'll find plenty of regulars here who happily offer forth their defence for such tactics. You have to remember that New Eden's market is entirely driven by other pod pilots and only a very small number of them look beyond the bottom line and factor in things like time stock sits on the market, time wasted having to check market orders to make sure you are the highest/lowest, etc into their profit calculations. Rejoice, it just makes your life easier when you dump your orders onto the market and mark up/down for a good percentage as you'll quickly complete the order and be ready to rapidly reinvest elsewhere.
Mara Silver Gallente Dragon and Phoenix	Posted - 2008.12.04 14:47:00 - [7] You don't see the benefits of it because your math is flawed. You need to account for time and profit in your calculations. If something is sitting on the market for a long time then it's not making any isk and so I would want to sell my stuff as fast as possible with the most profit. If I change my sale order by more then I will make much less from the sale. Also, when selling something that is sold/bought in bulk or high priced things my profit more then covers the 100 isk sales order change while the .01 isk change still keeps it high enough to make it worth the change when it sells fast enough for me to turn the money around and sell/buy more things. And most people, probably like you, complain about the .01 isk game because it's annoying not because you don't understand it. Jump Clone Service
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.12.04 15:05:00 - [8] Because they feel their time is worth nothing
Azlor	Posted - 2008.12.04 15:15:00 - [9] Why isn't the 1 cent buy order business banned entirely? Am I correct that a 100,000.01 buy order will get all the business over a 100,000 order? Shouldn't there be a minimum increase to get rid of this ridiculousness?
Artanixir Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.12.04 15:18:00 - [10] Originally by: Azlor Why isn't the 1 cent buy order business banned entirely? Am I correct that a 100,000.01 buy order will get all the business over a 100,000 order? Shouldn't there be a minimum increase to get rid of this ridiculousness? wouldn't matter, whatever the minimum increase is, people will use it, whether it be 0.01 isk, 0.1 isk or 1.00isk. --- If Common sense is so common, why is it so rare
Yarod Cool Team JAVELIN	Posted - 2008.12.04 15:48:00 - [11] Edited by: Yarod Cool on 04/12/2008 15:48:20 I want to sell my product for the highest price I can. That price is often .01 ISK lower than the lowest sell order for that item in that station. Why would I sell my product for anything other than the best price I can get? Edit: And the same goes for buy orders. Why would I want to pay more than necessary?
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.12.04 16:46:00 - [12] Originally by: NupetietVer Why do people feel the need to sell/buy over me by 1 cent when it takes 100 ISK to modify an order? Yes this has always bugged me to be honest. So one day i stopped doing it, Now I'm Broke
K'uata Sayus	Posted - 2008.12.04 18:05:00 - [13] Edited by: K''uata Sayus on 04/12/2008 18:08:01 I prefer the 1.00 Isk undercut, as it is easier and faster than the .01 Isk. When checking a lot of sell orders and adjusting them, .01 changes are too time consuming. The 100 Isk cost of adjustment hasn't got any bearing on making sure you have the lowest price in the station. EVERYONE SEEMS NORMAL UNTIL YOU GET TO KNOW THEM.
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.12.04 18:19:00 - [14] NupetietVer, I don't like your question for several reasons. First, the question was easy to answer in two ways. You could have searched for it in Eve forum posts. Or you could have taken a few isk and bought and sold something in game (eg, a few trit in a trade hub). Then you'd see how the market actually works. From there, it'd be easy to see why 0.01 outbidding occurs. Second, you asked the question with a negative connotation. It's better to ask why people "do" something rather than why they "feel the need". Maybe it's something utterly stupid, but you don't know that beforehand. Now, here's my main point. Third, you missed an opportunity to figure out something for yourself. That is an extremely useful skill for a trade-based player to cultivate. You'll see a lot of odd stuff going on. If you can understand why it happens, you might seize a profitable opportunity (or dodge an isk-losing opportunity!). Even if it turns out due to player stupidity, stupidity isn't random. There's some reason why the player is stupid in this way rather than that way. If you find something bizarre and first post a question on the forums, you let the cat out of the bag. Smart people will figure out what's going on (assuming they don't already know). And someone else gets the profit making. Having said that, a classic move is to "wonder" what's going on after you've made the big purchases. Ie, figure it out, buy what's going to be valuable, then go to the forums and talk about how "puzzled" you are by what's going on. The herd buys in and you sell your stuff at a big, instant profit. I'd say about 90% of the threads on moon minerals and reaction productions start this way.
inVictu5 Caldari Universal-Corp Nexus-Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.04 21:18:00 - [15] Its simple. If the 1 cent trade was banned or nerfed I would be out of business. I am that guy...
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.12.04 21:22:00 - [16] Originally by: Tasko Pal I'd say about 90% of the threads on moon minerals and reaction productions start this way. And even when we are truthful about our predictions people still fail to listen
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.12.04 21:26:00 - [17] There is no suck thing as '0.01 ISK wars'. It's really a 'Friendly Market Sharing' scheme. -Lasse usually not participating
Kwint Sommer Caldari XERCORE	Posted - 2008.12.04 21:46:00 - [18] Originally by: K'uata Sayus Edited by: K''uata Sayus on 04/12/2008 18:08:01 I prefer the 1.00 Isk undercut, as it is easier and faster than the .01 Isk. When checking a lot of sell orders and adjusting them, .01 changes are too time consuming. The 100 Isk cost of adjustment hasn't got any bearing on making sure you have the lowest price in the station. This exactly. Having the lowest sell order can make you billions, the 100 ISK cost, even if paid a few thousand times is trivial in comparison.
Cheopis Amarr One Stop Mining Shop	Posted - 2008.12.05 05:33:00 - [19] Edited by: Cheopis on 05/12/2008 05:34:07 Originally by: NupetietVer Why do people feel the need to sell/buy over me by 1 cent when it takes 100 ISK to modify an order? You are considering only the cost, not the income over time. If someone sells their items twice as fast because they paid 100 extra isk to modify their order, they can almost certainly make up those 100 isk spent by having the extra time to reinvest in something else. The larger the amount of funds, the more meaningless 100 isk becomes. It doesn't take much at all in the way of a transaction to make that 100 isk nearly irrelevant.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.12.05 05:52:00 - [20] See the old locked topic in my sig for my thoughts on the issue. TL;DR the market would be so much more interesting and strategic if the adjustment fee was a % of the value you set it to, not a static 100 isk fee. Improve Market Competition!
Darin Raltin Amarr Two Brothers Mining Corp. Kraftwerk.	Posted - 2008.12.05 06:12:00 - [21] Edited by: Darin Raltin on 05/12/2008 06:13:36 Edited by: Darin Raltin on 05/12/2008 06:12:53 I do a slight twist on the .01 isk undercut. I've been a lurker on the MD forums and one of the big things I learned was indexing your orders - yes it makes you identifiable, but it also saves a huge amount of time. All of my sell orders end in .XY (except for stuff like mins and other low cost items). This way, when I check my prices I just have to look for the .XY - I don't have to remember if that item is a .98 .99 .whatever. I have 109 market orders and I can scan and update my ENTIRE wallet in 5 minutes thanks to sufficient daytrading, doing 1 isk undercuts while I'm chatting, missioning, whatever. Why 1 isk? For the items I sell 100 isk is nothing and the constant updating fatigues my competitors who can't be bothered to compete with me. For me, its a question of "did I sell the item, or did someone else sell the item instead". Another factor that some people might be forgetting is that some people, like myself, make their entire living off hauling and arbitrage. You might be able to build an item for 1 million and sell it for 10 million so the thought of doing a .01 isk undercut is merely annoying, but for people who like me who retail bulk at 6 million isk and relist at 10 million, I can't afford to engage in a bidding war where large chunks of my profit are lost in each shift.
Jade Grimpkin Trader's Academy Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2008.12.05 06:22:00 - [22] 0.01 isk undercutting is the future of free market economy, the world just needs to catch on. Would love to know who the indexers are in my region, but not going to buy from them to find out :-) I just to copy their decimals as it creates some (lame and) mild entertainment during those order update times.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.12.05 08:46:00 - [23] Quote: 0.01 isk undercutting is the future of free market economy, the world just needs to catch on. Psht Improve Market Competition!
jonnus ursidae	Posted - 2008.12.05 11:28:00 - [24] As a new trader I've just come across this 0.1 increase/decrease tactic, all of a sudden my items aren't moving, isk isn't flowing and I'm logging on 3 times a day to correct my orders against their changes. Very annoying!
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.05 11:42:00 - [25] Edited by: Robacz on 05/12/2008 11:43:20 0.01 cutting and market camping are two different things. Market camping = adjusting orders several times a day, effectively stopping all other traders from getting/selling anything. This is often made via 0.01 cutting, because a lot of updates per day would change price too quickly if higher steps were used. I agree this is very annoying, but then again - if the other person is willing to spend much more time with trading than me, then this person deserves to win and I deserve to lose. 0.01 cutting, when not combined with market camping, is a method of market sharing, as someone else already pointed out. If I know there is another trader on same market, I can either try to fight him, crash the price, eventually force him to leave.... and watch him come back when price recovers, and so on until the end of all days. OR I can attempt to share the market with him - by 0.01 cutting. If I do updates in some reasonable time frame (+/- same as my competitor), I will be able to keep current price and share market with the other person. I find this strategy better, more profitable and less time consuming than aggressive pricing wars. Of course it requires cooperation from the other trader, if he refuses to join this price-keeping "pact", traditional war begins. However on markets with few players it often works very well. edit: typos
Feronia Gallente Magma Industries	Posted - 2008.12.05 12:51:00 - [26] The ultimate solution to 0.01 Isk wars would be to NOT allow order modifications any more. Changing your price would be only possible by deleting your order, create a new one and pay a broker fee again. This is already the case with contracts. People will think twice before updating their prices again and it would result in a more dynamic price setting.
SonOfAGhost Minmatar Minmatar Munitions and Tactical Assets Repository Zzz	Posted - 2008.12.05 13:30:00 - [27] Edited by: SonO*host on 05/12/2008 13:34:16 Originally by: Juyfne 3. Because tradertears fuel their market orders. Some people like to fight in space, some prefer market pvp. It's not about the money, it's about keeping you from selling your goods. Originally by: jonnus ursidae As a new trader I've just come across this 0.1 increase/decrease tactic, all of a sudden my items aren't moving, isk isn't flowing and I'm logging on 3 times a day to correct my orders against their changes. Very annoying! See! It works! Originally by: Feronia People will think twice before updating their prices again and it would result in a more dynamic price setting. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means ----- Originally by: kedoremos EVE's economy is **** for CPAs, Annuities, and Stock Brokers.
flakeys Tier 3 Technologies Inc Lazy is our middle name	Posted - 2008.12.05 15:22:00 - [28] Because the more isk and profit you make the more gready you become?
Chi Quan Perkone	Posted - 2008.12.05 15:41:00 - [29] Edited by: Chi Quan on 05/12/2008 15:41:56 the market works in a way that it ALWAYS takes the lowest order, regardless of the one you clicked, if you want to buy. broken game mechanic imho. still GMs say it's ok. ---- Ceterum censeo blasters need some tracking love
Astorothe Aperture Science Industries	Posted - 2008.12.05 16:29:00 - [30] I personally can't be bothered undercutting by 0.01 ISK thanks to the Eve GUI - but it all comes down to having the lowest order which will net you much more than you are paying in fee's for adjusting your order - if not you're doing it wrong :) RPGN.net Gaming Network - Eve Gaming News, Forums & Blog Nutwork Web Design - Designing Websites for Eve Online

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