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Vaurion Infara
Gallente Cloak and Daggers
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Posted - 2008.12.05 02:08:00 -
[1]
That's right, I said it. It seems recently, unless you have a cruiser fitted with 5 medium ECM drones, you might as well not bother trying to solo another cruiser, because they sure as hell have it. They take away any semblance of a competitive fight, and unless you have friends, there is absolutely NO way you can win, because they can and will permajam you every time. Falcons and Blackbirds are ridiculously overpowered. One Falcon or BB can permajam 5 people? And you can't kill them, because guess what, you're jammed? It seems the only way to combat ECM is with more ECM, because it truly is the largest factor in a fight, not speed, not DPS, not playing skill, not skillpoints. ECM. And I'm very very tired of it.
Southside OMS yo'. |
Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.12.05 02:10:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 05/12/2008 02:10:13 Smartbomb?
That takes care fo drones ^^.
Besides ECM is ok as is, I went up against 5 med EC-600 drones, I was jammed about 10% of the cycles or so, thats not overpower, just annyoing. So deal with it.
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EFT Warrior
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Posted - 2008.12.05 02:12:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Vaurion Infara That's right, I said it. It seems recently, unless you have a cruiser fitted with 5 speed mods, you might as well not bother trying to solo another cruiser, because they sure as hell have it. They take away any semblance of a competitive fight, and unless you have friends, there is absolutely NO way you can win, because they can and will outrun you every time. Vagabonds and Curses are ridiculously overpowered. One Curse or vaga can speed tank 5 people? And you can't kill them, because guess what, you're slow? It seems the only way to combat nano is with more nano, because it truly is the largest factor in a fight, not ECM, not DPS, not playing skill, not skillpoints. nano. And I'm very very tired of it.
This sound familiar to anyone?
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.12.05 02:14:00 -
[4]
Originally by: EFT Warrior
Originally by: Vaurion Infara That's right, I said it. It seems recently, unless you have a cruiser fitted with 5 speed mods, you might as well not bother trying to solo another cruiser, because they sure as hell have it. They take away any semblance of a competitive fight, and unless you have friends, there is absolutely NO way you can win, because they can and will outrun you every time. Vagabonds and Curses are ridiculously overpowered. One Curse or vaga can speed tank 5 people? And you can't kill them, because guess what, you're slow? It seems the only way to combat nano is with more nano, because it truly is the largest factor in a fight, not ECM, not DPS, not playing skill, not skillpoints. nano. And I'm very very tired of it.
This sound familiar to anyone?
Yeah, trolls out of the box again. And tehy like to overdo it, BB perma jamming five?? must be marauders then :P
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Vanthropy
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.12.05 02:25:00 -
[5]
or cruisers... you know... like.. the same sensor str.
um so ya.. ecm drones are overpowered.. true, but they have hardly any hp.. next time Vaurion.. have an overview tab that shows only drones. when you engage the enemy, if he unleashes ecm drones. Immediately put your drones on his drones. they'll eat em like cake, even if you get jammed. and you know what? you're not gimping yourself at all by doing it.. because guess what.. your opponent doesnt have dps drones.
ecm from blackbirds and falcons however... is a different story. enlist an eagle pilot to shoot em down? it sux cus say you're engaged with a dude.. and he's got you scramed and you've got him scrammed and webed in your rax.. then BAMM falcon.. and ur jammed.. you no longer have any range control ability because you cannot counter web or scram.
idk.. I watched you escape a vaga in your deimos while jammed the other day :) "SPEED + GANK = SPANK... Spank that ***** up" |
Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.12.05 02:42:00 -
[6]
True its annoying. But you are talking about a 2v1 situation. So its as it should be. You vs a flacon? you can get out ^^, or falcon gets out.
Falcon is also a T2 ship, and farily expaencive wiht the sole role of jamming (the other recons have two bonuses, falcon ony one). So yeah, it should be good. Also ECM is a pure caldari strenght, if you take it away you take away part of the whole races strenght.
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Vaurion Infara
Gallente Cloak and Daggers
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Posted - 2008.12.05 02:52:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs True its annoying. But you are talking about a 2v1 situation. So its as it should be. You vs a flacon? you can get out ^^, or falcon gets out.
Falcon is also a T2 ship, and farily expaencive wiht the sole role of jamming (the other recons have two bonuses, falcon ony one). So yeah, it should be good. Also ECM is a pure caldari strenght, if you take it away you take away part of the whole races strenght.
I never said take it away, just make it so permajamming doesn't happen so often. I'm happy if I get killed with at least a fighting chance of winning.
Southside OMS yo'. |
BiggestT
Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.12.05 03:11:00 -
[8]
Fail.
A falcon cannot permajam 5 targets. Maybe if their frigates, but your almost guarenteed to miss a jam for cruiser+ (with typical lev 4 support skills).
Oh and remembver that the falcon wld be pretty lucky to score a perfect race match-up with each racial ecm.
In short, stfu untill you know what your talking about. EVE history
t2 precisions |
FT Diomedes
Gallente Ductus Exemplo
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Posted - 2008.12.05 03:20:00 -
[9]
Originally by: BiggestT Fail.
A falcon cannot permajam 5 targets. Maybe if their frigates, but your almost guarenteed to miss a jam for cruiser+ (with typical lev 4 support skills).
Oh and remembver that the falcon wld be pretty lucky to score a perfect race match-up with each racial ecm.
In short, stfu untill you know what your talking about.
This. ------------ Improvize. Adapt. Overcome. |
E Vile
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Posted - 2008.12.05 05:04:00 -
[10]
FoF missles and watch the drones pop like bubbles.
Smartbombs also a sure drone death.
Nothing works for everything. Stop crying nerfs just because you can't figure out PVP
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Adaera
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Posted - 2008.12.05 06:43:00 -
[11]
Originally by: FT Diomedes
Originally by: BiggestT Fail.
A falcon cannot permajam 5 targets. Maybe if their frigates, but your almost guarenteed to miss a jam for cruiser+ (with typical lev 4 support skills).
Oh and remembver that the falcon wld be pretty lucky to score a perfect race match-up with each racial ecm.
In short, stfu untill you know what your talking about.
This.
Seconded.
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Mag's
MASS
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Posted - 2008.12.05 06:53:00 -
[12]
This thread needs more waaaaaaaa tbh
Mag's
Originally by: Avernus One of these days, the realization that MASS is no longer significant will catch up with you. |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2008.12.05 07:23:00 -
[13]
Originally by: BiggestT Fail.
A falcon cannot permajam 5 targets. Maybe if their frigates, but your almost guarenteed to miss a jam for cruiser+ (with typical lev 4 support skills).
Oh and remembver that the falcon wld be pretty lucky to score a perfect race match-up with each racial ecm.
In short, stfu untill you know what your talking about.
Sure it can. I do so all the time. All ECM skills to 5 now, Recon 5 etc. When I miss a jam on something that's hard to jam- like a battleship, it takes the target so long to re-lock anything that by the time it has locked something and started to fire again, poof, it's jammed again.
Anything BC sized and smaller is laughably easy to jam. In short, stfu until you know what you're talking about.
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Burn Mac
Minmatar The Tuskers
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Posted - 2008.12.05 08:00:00 -
[14]
For everyone that says "smartbombs GO!" how long does it take to pop med ecm drones with medium smartbombs? Cause if it is a viable solution i sure as hell will look into it, ecm drones has screwed me over each damn time i engage a thorax in my rupture if it will solve my ecm drone issues to use those two utility slots for smartbombs instead i will do it without a doubt.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.12.05 11:14:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: BiggestT Fail.
A falcon cannot permajam 5 targets. Maybe if their frigates, but your almost guarenteed to miss a jam for cruiser+ (with typical lev 4 support skills).
Oh and remembver that the falcon wld be pretty lucky to score a perfect race match-up with each racial ecm.
In short, stfu untill you know what your talking about.
Sure it can. I do so all the time. All ECM skills to 5 now, Recon 5 etc. When I miss a jam on something that's hard to jam- like a battleship, it takes the target so long to re-lock anything that by the time it has locked something and started to fire again, poof, it's jammed again.
Anything BC sized and smaller is laughably easy to jam. In short, stfu until you know what you're talking about.
This. You can basically excluse 5 battleships generally with 5 racials. I can do that too in my falcon. It is utterly redicilously overpowered.
And no, we are not making it up. We both use falcons. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise |
baltec1
R.U.S.T. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.12.05 11:48:00 -
[16]
Had a rook and a falcon fail to jam my geddon for an entire fight.
They should have but they were very very unlucky so perma jamming 5 battleships set up correctly is possible but unlikely.
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maralt
Minmatar The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.05 11:57:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
This. You can basically excluse 5 battleships generally with 5 racials. I can do that too in my falcon. It is utterly redicilously overpowered.
And no, we are not making it up. We both use falcons.
perma jamming 5 bs?, lol i have perfect skills in falcon and i have never managed that ever.
The falcon works well but its not the awesome ship of death ppl claim it to be, its just the frustration ppl get from being jammed even for one cycle that makes them post threads about it that is the real issue.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.12.05 11:58:00 -
[18]
two or three cycles of a medium smartbomb ii to kill medium ecm drones depending on the owners drone skills..
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.12.05 12:18:00 -
[19]
Originally by: baltec1 Had a rook and a falcon fail to jam my geddon for an entire fight.
They should have but they were very very unlucky so perma jamming 5 battleships set up correctly is possible but unlikely.
That doesn't prove anything.
-Pilot might have multispecs and is out of range or in fall off -Pilot might have the wrong racials -Pilot might have very low skills
You also do know that you do not need to PERMA jam a BS to keep it effectively out of combat. It has long lock time, if you nail every other cycle on it it is enough to keep it out of the battle. And yes, you CAN do that with 5 correct racials even on battleships unless they back eccm wich they don't always do and not all ships are even battleships either. Falcons are stupid, end of story. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story |
Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.12.05 12:21:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer bla bla bla
Actually your posts doesnt prove anything. Cry more about ecm and ccp will nerf your pulses+beams as those weapons weren't checked for nano nerf yet :P
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maralt
Minmatar The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.05 12:23:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer bla bla bla
Actually your posts doesnt prove anything. Cry more about ecm and ccp will nerf your pulses+beams as those weapons weren't checked for nano nerf yet :P
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.12.05 12:27:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 05/12/2008 12:28:20
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer bla bla bla
Actually your posts doesnt prove anything. Cry more about ecm and ccp will nerf your pulses+beams as those weapons weren't checked for nano nerf yet :P
And your post does? Ask any skilled pvper, they know falcons are OP in low sec small gang/solo warfare. And no, emo all you like. CCP isn't going to nerf a race/ship they've boosted few months ago. It is also nothing new that amarr dominate MID range. You like mid range? Wth didn't you train amarr? They will however adjust other ships to the new QR speeds. Wich means at some point falcons operation range will be looked at. At that point all the noobs will cry because they can't use their falcons in easy mode anymore. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story |
Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.12.05 12:40:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
And your post does? Ask any skilled pvper, they know falcons are OP in low sec small gang/solo warfare. And no, emo all you like. CCP isn't going to nerf a race/ship they've boosted few months ago. It is also nothing new that amarr dominate MID range. You like mid range? Wth didn't you train amarr? They will however adjust other ships to the new QR speeds. Wich means at some point falcons operation range will be looked at. At that point all the noobs will cry because they can't use their falcons in easy mode anymore.
Your logic is fail too , if you say amarr dominate mid range and it is fine . Than a caldari ship like a falcon should dominate long range , and no need for any nerf in its operation range as that would make it good in mid range which is for amarr and therefore it is eighter an amarr ship or not good in mid range. So following this caldari rail ships needs a boost to dominate long range, able to shot at long range and doing lol dmg is not dominating.
So pls come to caldari railboat boost topic and give us a thumbs up , thx Lyria.
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TheEndofTheWorld
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.12.05 12:48:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
And your post does? Ask any skilled pvper, they know falcons are OP in low sec small gang/solo warfare. And no, emo all you like. CCP isn't going to nerf a race/ship they've boosted few months ago. It is also nothing new that amarr dominate MID range. You like mid range? Wth didn't you train amarr? They will however adjust other ships to the new QR speeds. Wich means at some point falcons operation range will be looked at. At that point all the noobs will cry because they can't use their falcons in easy mode anymore.
Your logic is fail too , if you say amarr dominate mid range and it is fine . Than a caldari ship like a falcon should dominate long range , and no need for any nerf in its operation range as that would make it good in mid range which is for amarr and therefore it is eighter an amarr ship or not good in mid range. So following this caldari rail ships needs a boost to dominate long range, able to shot at long range and doing lol dmg is not dominating.
So pls come to caldari railboat boost topic and give us a thumbs up , thx Lyria.
nanos
Why were nanos nerfed
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The Tzar
Malicious Intentions
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Posted - 2008.12.05 12:57:00 -
[25]
Originally by: baltec1 Had a rook and a falcon fail to jam my geddon for an entire fight.
They should have but they were very very unlucky so perma jamming 5 battleships set up correctly is possible but unlikely.
Thankyou baltec1 for posting this.
Just like addicted gamblers, you never hear of their losses only the wins. This creates a hysteria of success which is totally unrepresentive of the whole.
To the earlier posters... Five BS permajammed for an entire fight? I don't believe it tbh.
Either the battle was over so quickly due to overwhelming dps that the ECM only needed one jam to jam the ships for the entire fight or yet again BS pilots refuse to fit ECCM.
Both examples are not completely due to the ECM.
__________________________________________
'Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear intelligent until they speak' __________________________________________ |
baltec1
R.U.S.T. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.12.05 13:02:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: baltec1 Had a rook and a falcon fail to jam my geddon for an entire fight.
They should have but they were very very unlucky so perma jamming 5 battleships set up correctly is possible but unlikely.
That doesn't prove anything.
-Pilot might have multispecs and is out of range or in fall off -Pilot might have the wrong racials -Pilot might have very low skills
You also do know that you do not need to PERMA jam a BS to keep it effectively out of combat. It has long lock time, if you nail every other cycle on it it is enough to keep it out of the battle. And yes, you CAN do that with 5 correct racials even on battleships unless they back eccm wich they don't always do and not all ships are even battleships either. Falcons are stupid, end of story.
People are stupid, not the ship.
I fit an ECCM and a sensor booster on all gang battleships. These two simple steps mean I am hard to keep locked down with a single racial ECM.
I fit counters and use my brain in a fight. Because of this I dont find falcons overpowered. My comments are based off experience and hold as much merrit as yours so if mine don't prove anything neither do yours.
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Soi Mala
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Posted - 2008.12.05 13:28:00 -
[27]
Ever flown a falcon? Doesn't sound like it...
TBH i think the falcon is fine, and the past 6months of wahwah threads had me worried that the remaining usefull ewar was gonna be nerfed into the ground too. However it seems the majority of the population feel they're fine. :D
Its little problems with the falcon that people just don't realise until you fly them. Things like targetting range being shorter than your optimal etc... All of a sudden you find yourself flying an uninsurable, expensive, rigged ship with no tank or damage, and you think they should be in the fray?
In small gangs they're annoying, i hate being jammed as much as the next guy. However if i'm sat there with a full rack of neutrons flashing, and I get jammed instead of my myrm friend, i just see that as a wise move on my opponents part rather than getting bitter and running to the forums about it. In fleet fights you can pretty much be assured death, the numbers are too overwhelming and you can't do your job half as effectively as you whiners would imagine. Lag makes it almost impossible to uncloak, lock, jam and recloak without being locked by one of the 200+ people that have just been told "KILL THAT F**KIN FALCON!"
Bottom line is, there are plenty of counters to ecm, and if not one ship in your gang has fitted any of them, then you deserve everything you get. Stop whining just because it doesn't fit into your knuckle-dragging slugfest fighting principle. Go play with your Rock'em Sock'em Robots, seems more suited to your level of intellect.
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Amarr'd
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.12.05 13:42:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Amarr''d on 05/12/2008 13:42:22 Please give me a caldari recon that can solo remotely well.
Thanks
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Keitaro Baka
Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project
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Posted - 2008.12.05 14:04:00 -
[29]
There's a lot of annoying semantics flying around here, so let's get a few things straight:
- keeping a ship out of the fight is basically the same as permajamming it, forcing it to warp out, etc. With the 20sec jam cycle and the pretty high lock times on a battleship (like 9 seconds on a well skilled char without any gang/mod boni to target another BS) a single succesful jam cycle takes out a BS effectively for 1.5 jam cycle time. If the BS takes even longer to lock this goes up pretty fast. If you jam a BS 50% of the time while it has a 10s lock time you're effectively taking it out of combat 75% of the time you're jamming it.
- One falcon can permajam 5 people (if it brings 5 ecm mods). If only because the whole ecm system is chancebased these days. If you've been permajammed in a fight, it can easily mean there was more than one ecm mod/drone on you. Or that there was a bit of luck in your enemy's favour.
- Usually the effective racial jam strength for a falcon is like 12 (at optimal 150km), meaning with a ship strength of 24 you're about at the 50% jam chance per racial mod. Most cruisers have a sensor strength of around 12, amarr and minmatar 13 or lower, gallente and caldari 13 or higher. Highlights: zealot: 13, ishtar 16, falcon 28 (yeah caldari are harder to jam). And how about BC? Harbinger, Hurricane: 16, myrmidon 18 and drake 19. An armageddon has sensor strength 17. In fact most battleships have less than 24 sensor strength, only 2 have 24.
- The OP has some stuff about not being able to solo a cruiser with a cruiser without 5 med ECM drones. That is greatly dependant on the ships tbh, I know quite a few people who fit eccm on their solo cruiser, take out the ecm drones and then use their greatly enhanced dps to just wtfpwn the enemy. But it's certainly a lot easier and efficient to bring your own ecm drones.
Point? I too believe ECM is overpowered. I don't believe it's an iWIN, I do believe you can buff your chances by fitting your ship with falcons in mind.
Right now ecm is a bit too chaotically random. If you're in a small ship (that's not a specific eccm boat itself) you're pretty much screwed since good ecm pilots (who pump out 14 strength) can jam you with a ~90-100% jam chance. If you're fitting ECCM you'd do well to check your sensor strength after.. armageddon + eccm II = 33.3 sensor strength which means a good ecm pilot will get a jam chance of about 40% per white noise II.. Even if you fit multiple ECCM (sniper pest with 2 eccm = 68.3 sensor strength) on a BS a good ecm pilot gets like 20% jam chance per module.
Nerf it a bit, make it scripted, lower jam cycle a bit. As it is now, it's just as overpowered as the old sensor damps.
All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me.. Drone guide.. |
Lauri Andromedae
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Posted - 2008.12.05 14:15:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Vaurion Infara That's right, I said it. It seems recently, unless you have a cruiser fitted with 5 medium ECM drones, you might as well not bother trying to solo another cruiser, because they sure as hell have it. They take away any semblance of a competitive fight, and unless you have friends, there is absolutely NO way you can win, because they can and will permajam you every time. Falcons and Blackbirds are ridiculously overpowered. One Falcon or BB can permajam 5 people? And you can't kill them, because guess what, you're jammed? It seems the only way to combat ECM is with more ECM, because it truly is the largest factor in a fight, not speed, not DPS, not playing skill, not skillpoints. ECM. And I'm very very tired of it.
Bring your own falcon. Problem solved. Period.
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