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Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Frigateers Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2008.12.05 16:23:00 -
[1]
CCP should look at the two least-flown ships in the Amarr line, the Augoror and the Prophecy.
For the Augoror, I propose that they give it a mining bonus (like its Osprey or Scythe counterparts) and take away the mining bonus of the Arbitrator, which is already a damn fine ship. With its thick armor, the Augoror might then have a role as a serious lowsec ninja-mining ship.
The Prophecy is generally considered worse than the Harbinger in every way, but it does have a nice tank. I propose that CCP add a range bonus to medium lasers to this ship. With a combination of a strong tank and long-range weapons, the Prophecy may become a preference for mission-running over its big brother.
............. Now recruiting like-minded pilots. |
Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2008.12.05 18:24:00 -
[2]
Imho the one unnecessary difference between the Prophecy and the Harbinger is the drone bay. If the Prophecy had the (slightly) larger drone bay and the Harbinger the smaller one, both ships would be a lot more balanced. Apart from that the powergrid difference is huge, which doesn't even let the Prophecy fulfil it's 'tank' role. 1500 vs. 1300. Now compare that to Brutix (1150) vs. Myrm. (1175) or Cyclone (1210) vs. Hurricane (1350). The latter two even being shield tank vs. armor tank. I think the Prophecy should at least get 1375 MW.
In general tier 1 and tier 2 battlecruisers should be better balanced against each other. Especially if the roles are similar.
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Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
Glach Duwat
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Posted - 2008.12.05 19:20:00 -
[3]
I don't think any balance is super needed personally. The Augorer is a Great Support ship on low budget, like the Exequeror.
and I've seen the Prophecy do quite well with the right skills.
I'd like the Cyclone to be better, but it has a role, even if the Hurricane does seem better in every imaginable way.
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Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Frigateers Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2008.12.05 21:11:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Joe Starbreaker on 05/12/2008 21:11:27 I have never, ever seen anyone come up with a good use for an Augoror, except maybe as bait. Capacitor transfer? Who needs that? It sucks to have a whole ship with no use.
The Scythe and Osprey are T1 logistics ships primarily useful as mining cruisers. The other two mining cruisers, the Arbitrator and Vexor, are very popular for other uses, so I think it'd make sense to give mining bonuses instead to the Exequror and Augoror... then at least all four T1 logistics ships would have a role.
Failing that, here's another idea. Give the Augoror a bonus to all modules that require Energy Emission Systems -- including energy vampires and destabilizers. Now then you'd have a useful little cruiser.
............. Now recruiting like-minded pilots. |
Su27frogfoot
Caldari Warped Mining
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Posted - 2008.12.05 21:22:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Su27frogfoot on 05/12/2008 21:22:29 I can agre with you on that Augoror could need the mining bonus as could the Exequror the later one has a nice cargo bay why not let us use it fully. But to say that a cap transfer ship is no good is abit hard on the poor thing if you ask me (witch you don't), but haveing all energy mods get a boost on it would just overpowere it for a none faction T1 cruiser, that is easy to fly too. PS try captransfer to a dual rep tacyon Abaddon and you'll see that it works true not great but it does the job for some time. Prophecy I have never used that mutch and did use artys on it to fit tank so have to agre needs more powergrid (extra cap to maby)
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Smelts
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Posted - 2008.12.05 22:30:00 -
[6]
I agree with the prophecy comment. It lacks any sense to use it when the harbinger carrier more punch and can pretty much fit a tank that is just as potent as the prophecy (for pve).
Range boost would be nice but I would prefer something different.
I would like to ask the Prophecy be changed into a Khanid ship.
That is, give it the option of lasers or launchers, the nice tank and the range boost to the lasers (but no cap reduction) and an extra highslot.
Then the prophecy could be become an excellent long range + tank ship that would not have a stellar dps but is very flexible.
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Cletus Graeme
Caldari COLD-Wing
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Posted - 2008.12.05 22:34:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 05/12/2008 22:36:28
The Amarr and Minmatar BCs both suffer from a similar problem which is that the newer BCs (Harbinger and Hurricane) can do everything that the older BCs (Prophecy and Cyclone) did, but EVEN BETTER.
In contrast, the Caldari got a missile boat (Drake) to complement their existing rail sniper (Ferox) while the Gallente got a drone boat (Myrmidon) to complement their existing blaster boat (Brutix).
It's therefore obvious how to improve both the Prophecy and the Cyclone.
The Prophecy already tanks very well so give it missiles and paint it black - the same should be done with the Maller tbh :)
The Cyclone will never be as good with autocannons as the Hurricane, so tweak it by swapping some missile slots for turret slots then give it enough grid and the right bonuses to artillery usage so that it (slightly) outperforms the cane at this role.
Fixed!
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Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Frigateers Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2008.12.05 23:01:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Cletus Graeme The Prophecy already tanks very well so give it missiles and paint it black - the same should be done with the Maller tbh :)
They did this... it's called the T2 versions of both ships. What you're asking for are T1 Amarr ships that shoot missiles... I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with that.
You made a good observation that the caldari have two main weapons systems, missiles and rails, and the Gallente have two, drones and blasters, and that's a good way to differentiate the battlecruisers. The Amarr definitely do use drones as a common backup weapon, so they could try making the prophecy into a droneboat. Energy war is another secondary Amarr strength, and I wouldn't complain if they bonused the prophecy for that, somehow.
What about the Cyclone? The main difference between it and the Hurricane is the tank, right? I really like the look of the Cyclone as it matches the Thrasher, and I wish there was something cool it could do. Maybe make it speedier or give it more drones or make it a missileboat?
............. Now recruiting like-minded pilots. |
Grarr Dexx
Amarr Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2008.12.06 01:48:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Originally by: Cletus Graeme The Prophecy already tanks very well so give it missiles and paint it black - the same should be done with the Maller tbh :)
They did this... it's called the T2 versions of both ships. What you're asking for are T1 Amarr ships that shoot missiles... I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with that.
You made a good observation that the caldari have two main weapons systems, missiles and rails, and the Gallente have two, drones and blasters, and that's a good way to differentiate the battlecruisers. The Amarr definitely do use drones as a common backup weapon, so they could try making the prophecy into a droneboat. Energy war is another secondary Amarr strength, and I wouldn't complain if they bonused the prophecy for that, somehow.
What about the Cyclone? The main difference between it and the Hurricane is the tank, right? I really like the look of the Cyclone as it matches the Thrasher, and I wish there was something cool it could do. Maybe make it speedier or give it more drones or make it a missileboat?
Well, there's the Inquisitor. |
Icarus Flame
Amarr Van Ness Pet Hospital
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Posted - 2008.12.06 02:18:00 -
[10]
Hehe wtf is the OP smoking? Mining bonus on the arbitrator? Lulz... Oh, except for mining drones.
Here's what needs to happen to the useless Amarr T1 ships. Don't give me any **** about Amarr already being overpowered - it's lasers that are overpowered, and there are only two T1 sub BS Amarr ships that effectively use lasers - punisher and harbinger.
The useless ships (pvp) are as follows:
Omen. Boost its PG, PLEASE. It's nigh impossible to fit a decent tank and 5 medium guns at the same time. I just want a mini harbinger, please.
Maller. Make this a missile ship. Like the inquisitor. That would be so totally kickass. The new maller needs to keep its armor resist bonus, while getting a heavy missile launcher RoF bonus of 5% per level. Or, if necessary, an EM missile damage bonus, a la the inquisitor.
Prophecy. This also should be a missile ship. The problem with it now is that there is no reason to fly it over a Harbinger. It doesn't have EHP that's significantly better than the Harbinger, unless you set it up for a full tank. Who the hell does that, anyway? If the Proph MUST be a tanking ship, for whatever crazy reason, at least give it another lowslot and the CPU to fit more resists.
The auguror does not need a fix. I've never flown one, but notice that all the other races have a logistics cruiser in their line up. So should Amarr. The craziness with Amarr cruiser sized pvp is that an arbitrator, using not its races primary (lasers) or secondary (missiles) weapon system, is able to completely wtfpwn both of its races intended combat T1 cruisers.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2008.12.06 02:42:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx Well, there's the Inquisitor.
One frigate out of six is something else than one battlecruiser out of two.
Some of you made a good point in saying that Amarr's second weapon system is drones, missiles and cap warfare, but in essence not exactly one particular thing, more like a bit of everything. And I actually think it's ok that way, because it emphasizes Lasers and thus fits the Amarr attitude. For me Amarr are very straightforward and tenacious. Lasers come first and everything else takes the backseat.
So personally I think the Prophecy could be modified to fit this. Basically retain the 'holy lazors!' emphasis, but make it more flexible. It could get the mentioned powergrid boost and in addition to that more missile hardpoints and a slightly larger drone bay, however not the correlating bonuses, so it neither becomes a drone boat, nor a missile boat. I'm thinking about something like: 1375 MW 4 missile hardpoints 40m¦ drone bandwidth and 60m¦ drone bay
Of course it's not a huge boost, but it's meant to be exactly that, a slight modification. Newbie mission runners would probably love it, and in PvP it would definitely not perform worse.
___________________________________
Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2008.12.06 02:44:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Icarus Flame Don't give me any **** about Amarr already being overpowered - it's lasers that are overpowered
Oh I so wish I could go back in time. Like.. 1 or even better 2 years.
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Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.12.06 04:12:00 -
[13]
Not too sure there's a huge issue with the cyclone, really. It uses an active shield tank which makes it rather unpopular, but I don't see how that makes it really underpowered.
Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
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Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Frigateers Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2008.12.06 06:02:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Icarus Flame Hehe wtf is the OP smoking? Mining bonus on the arbitrator? Lulz... Oh, except for mining drones.
Yes, the Arbitrator has a mining bonus. The four mining bonused cruisers are the Osprey, Scythe, Arbitrator, and Vexor. People who mine in exequrors are noobs.
Originally by: Icarus Flame The useless ships (pvp) are as follows... Omen... Maller...Prophecy...
While I grant you that all of those could use a boost, they are not the most useless Amarr ships. All can fit a goodly number of T2 lasers and do significant damage at range. Not extraordinary but at least better than the Moa. They are far less useless than the Augoror and the Inquisitor.
Originally by: Icarus Flame The auguror does not need a fix. I've never flown one, but notice that all the other races have a logistics cruiser in their line up. So should Amarr.
I never said the Augoror should lose its logistics cruiser, nor did I suggest that Minmatar or Caldari lose theirs. Both of those races have a logistics-bonused cruiser that also has a mining bonus. When was the last time you used the Scythe for its tracking link bonus, by the way? Probably about the last time you used an Augoror for its cap transfer. I'm just asking CCP to give the poor thing a use so that we might see one around from time to time.
............. Now recruiting like-minded pilots. |
Cletus Graeme
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.12.06 06:04:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden Not too sure there's a huge issue with the cyclone, really. It uses an active shield tank which makes it rather unpopular, but I don't see how that makes it really underpowered.
OK, give me a situation where you would use a cyclone instead of a Hurricane.
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Cletus Graeme
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.12.06 06:22:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 06/12/2008 06:25:20
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Originally by: Cletus Graeme The Prophecy already tanks very well so give it missiles and paint it black - the same should be done with the Maller tbh :)
They did this... it's called the T2 versions of both ships. What you're asking for are T1 Amarr ships that shoot missiles... I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with that.
I think you missed my point.
Now take the BC (T1) to CS (T2) ship class (and ignore for now the fact that both CS have the same hull, which ideally ALSO needs changing)
Both cal and gal have distinct ships with distinct roles and progression.
Caldari: Drake -> Nighthawk, Ferox -> Vulture Gallente: Mymridon -> Eos, Brutix -> Astarte
In contrast those for amarr and min are not as well defined
Amarr: Harbinger -> Absolution, Prophecy -> Damnation (!) Minmatar: Cyclone -> Sleipnir/Claymore, Hurricane -> ????
Leaving aside Minmatar for now, Amarr clearly don't have a logical progression anymore because the T2 Khanid ships have no T1 equivalents (when they SHOULD).
With the introduction of Armor tanking missile boats, Amarr now have a secondary weapon type - MISSILES!
Hence, the Prophecy needs to be a T1 version of the Damnation - i.e. a missile boat
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2008.12.06 12:03:00 -
[17]
I don't see the need for a 'logical progression' on all races to be honest. As long as all/most ships are useful, there's no problem. If you want a 'logical progression' you should train the races which have one.
I like the fact that not all races are structured the same.
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Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2008.12.06 12:36:00 -
[18]
It would be pretty sweet if all the T1 hulls of the Logistics cruisers had the remote repairer range bonus, like the Osprey currently. That would make them all a lot more valuable and they'd see far more use than they do now. There must be billions of HP worth of POS modules being repped every week, T1 cruisers would increase the pool of available reppers significantly and leave more time for Pew.
As for the Prophecy; all the tier 2 BCs are superior to the tier 1's, but I must admit the Prophecy stands out in its inability to much besides tank like a mofo. Then again, it's the same for the Ferox .. leftovers from the time when Caldari and Amarr were the whipping boys of the universe I guess.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.12.06 15:49:00 -
[19]
What all tier 1 BCs need is a specific different role than their tier 2 counterparts which they fulfill better than the tier 2s. That way they will become more viable to use without compromising the diversity the tier system is providing.
The Ferox is a turret boat, the Drake is a missile boat, so here we already have different roles that work quite well.
Only thing to make both ships more different could be in dropping the Shield Resistance bonus from the Ferox and adding a Damage bonus to increase on the alpha ability of its sniping, making it a stronger anti-support sniper.
The Prophecy is a tank, but a tank without anything else is rather pointless apart from bait, so it needs something different.
According to the description its purpose is artillery support, so dropping the Energy Weapon Capacitor Use bonus for a 7.5 optimal bonus could work in making it a sniper itself.
Another option could be giving it a tracking bonus to defend the snipers from small ships running below the sniper's tracking and compromising the sniper position.
The Brutix is a turret heavy boat compared to the drone heavy Myrmidon. While the difference may be there it is not significant enough really, as both have basically the same bonus set, damage and tank.
Dropping the Brutix' repair bonus for something else might improve on the discernibility. I'd propose either a RoF or Tracking bonus to signify on the 'hard hitting' part in the description or give it a MWD bonus to make it a big Thorax.
The Cyclone is the tanking variety of the Minmatar BCs and while a strong active tank can be achieved, it can't do much else.
Making it more missile heavy by switching a turret for a launcher hardpoint and the Projectile bonus for a Missile bonus could make it more different than the Hurricane.
Or putting more emphasis on the 'powerful thrusters' in the description, giving it more speed and agility, maybe even dropping the tanking bonus for a 5% Velocity bonus. Right now it has the same Max. Velocity, Mass and Inertia Mod as the Hurricane, making it neither the more agile or faster BC.
From the description, the Cyclone is supposed to add muscle to frigate detachments and a greater speed and agility would help it keeping up with them, making the cyclone more of an option for fast moving roaming gangs than the Hurricane.
The Augoror could use a 4th turret hardpoint, increasing both the damage and mining capability of it. The Energy Transfer bonuses are good, imho, as it makes it different from the other T1 'logistic' cruisers.
Even if it's not generally used as a mobile cap booster, it is still a nice and cheap option to top off capital ships after a jump.
The Maller is one of those 'tank but not much else' ships. It could profit from dropping the Energy Weapon Cap Use bonus and adding a damage bonus instead, making it a small Abaddon. Though that could infringe on the glass cannon approach of the omen.
I don't like giving T1 Amarr ships more missile boats as that isn't the Amarr way but more the Khanid way of combat. Maybe have Khanid Navy ships in the LP Stores that are missile specialized. This would also increase the diversity of LP Stores overall, which imho is something that needs to be worked upon.
If things get changed, a emphasis on greater diversity should be laid. This would make EVE more interesting to play, really.
-------- Ideas for: Mining
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Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2008.12.06 16:37:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 06/12/2008 16:38:41 make the prophecy a khanid t1 ham ship (that is what amarr lacks I think, a t1 ham platform).
-take the useless laser bonus away, give it a ham 5% rof bonus per lvl -6-7 missile hardpoints (7 main weapon hardpoints like the brutix) -bit more cpu -paint it black
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Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Frigateers Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2008.12.06 18:23:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Cpt Cosmic Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 06/12/2008 16:38:41 make the prophecy a khanid t1 ham ship (that is what amarr lacks I think, a t1 ham platform).
-take the useless laser bonus away, give it a ham 5% rof bonus per lvl -6-7 missile hardpoints (7 main weapon hardpoints like the brutix) -bit more cpu -paint it black
I absolutely oppose this idea. Khanid ships are Amarr T2. Amarr are all about lasers and tank, with a side dish of drones. If every race gets one of everything, then they have no character. Training for T2 ships takes a while and there should be a reward at the end of the tunnel, that being the treat of a different style of weapon and tactic that you can use.
The Prophecy should have something to differentiate it from the Harbinger, but it should not be a shortcut to bypass T2 training or to cheapen others' investment in the Damnation.
............. Now recruiting like-minded pilots. |
Icarus Flame
Amarr Van Ness Pet Hospital
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Posted - 2008.12.06 18:24:00 -
[22]
@ OP - Didn't realize the other tier 1 cruisers had a mining bonus. I'm not too educated with regard to those ships.
I like the ideas in this thread. The omen is a good glass cannon ship, with decent damage for a cruiser, but it's nothing like the laser-sporting equivalent of the thorax/rupture it ought to be. The maller takes this spot, being totally useless, without a damage bonus. So give it a damage bonus instead of the cap use bonus, to make it a mini-abaddon, or make it a t1 sacrilege.
The posters in this thread have it right - the problem with the prophecy is the same as the problem with the omen. A pure tanking ship is completely useless. Make it a missile boat like the maller.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2008.12.06 19:51:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 06/12/2008 19:52:35
Originally by: Icarus Flame The maller takes this spot, being totally useless, without a damage bonus.
The Apocalypse is not totally useless, even without a damage bonus. Imho the problem with the Maller is that it can't fit a proper tank and big caliber guns. Since turrets are all the dps the Maller has (no drone bay), I think it would be perfectly ok if it was possible to fit heavy beam or pulse lasers on it. At least with Advanced Weapon Upgrades 4 or 5.
Apart from that I, too, oppose the idea of more Amarr missile ships. Meh, it was kinda foreseeable to get these kind of suggestions after Khanid MKII, but Amarr is still a laser-focused race. Maybe give some of their ships more missile hardpoints, similar to what I've suggested above, but no real Amarr T1 missile boats, please. And no pure drone boats, either. After all the Arbitrator's description says it's an exception.
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Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
Cletus Graeme
Caldari Duty.
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Posted - 2008.12.11 12:21:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 11/12/2008 12:24:11
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Apart from that I, too, oppose the idea of more Amarr missile ships. Meh, it was kinda foreseeable to get these kind of suggestions after Khanid MKII, but Amarr is still a laser-focused race. Maybe give some of their ships more missile hardpoints, similar to what I've suggested above, but no real Amarr T1 missile boats, please. And no pure drone boats, either. After all the Arbitrator's description says it's an exception.
Arbitrator -> Curse/Pilgrim :) Logical progression ftw, especially where T1 to T2 is concerned!
The objections people have to making the Prophecy/Maller missile boats are not well thought arguments based on achieving game balance.
Having said that, the backstory does support the lack of T1 Khanid ships.
The Khanid Kinngdom is a breakaway from the Amarr Empire (just as the Caldari State brokeaway from the Gallente Federation). Perhaps because of sharing a similar history they developed close ties with the Caldari and used their technology to improve on the orginal Amarr designs to produce the unique abilities of the Khanid ships. This all ties in nicely with the idea of ALL Khanid ships being T2 (i.e improved versions of an Amarr T1 design).
To get back on topic, the REAL problem with the Maller and Prophecy is indeed the lack of a distinct role. Making them missile boats is only one of several possible solutions. Making them better beams snipers is another and no doubt there are more.
At the very least the Grid/CPU/Bonuses need tweaking so that they can do SOMETHING useful.
I fit autocannons on my Prophecy - things are that bad :D
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2008.12.11 14:25:00 -
[25]
Well Prophecy and Maller do have a role: heavy tank.
But only tank and nothing else doesn't make for a very useful ship, except for baiting.
In general I agree that fitting the highest tier guns on a ship should be problematic. On those two ships though, I'd like to see an exception, becauee they don't really have anything else besides tank. Since EVE gameplay largely revolves around specialists, they will have the low slots filled with tanking mods, anyway, to make use of their bonus. This means that Dps won't be too high, even with biggest caliber guns. And since both ships don't have a damage bonus, they aren't well suited for max dmg fittings in the first place. You'd choose an Omen or Harbinger for that.
So all in all more powergrid would simply allow Maller and Prophecy to do a reasonable amount of damage besides tanking. Or tank really really well, but with pityful dps.
___________________________________
Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
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