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Vitrael Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2008.12.08 04:44:00 - [1] "Uh oh, Hictor's got me and dreads are cynoing in... looks like this is the end!" 04:15:32 Notify Your Nyx will self-destruct in 2 Minutes Don't you think it's about time we revisited this feature? It may have been implemented for any number of reasons, but nowadays it is by and large used by capital and super-capital pilots to prevent an embarrassing loss mail. Hey, yeah, I'm whining- we had three capitals deny us killmails in three separate incidences today (including a Nyx). Personally, I think this behavior is an exploit, albeit an annoying, not a game-breaking one. The only other use for self-destruct I can think of is podding yourself to a home station when stuck somewhere far away. As is such I propose a number of options that will fix the cowardly self-destructing capital issue, but allow the feature to retain its usefulness: 1. No Insurance for Self-destruction A simple and elegant solution- if you self destruct, there is no insurance payout. Capital pilots will have to consider the price of the lossmail against their insurance. If they're willing to lose the insurance, then I suppose they've bought their "dignity". The only flip-side to this would be that people who want to self destruct their ships in peace to collect insurance would be out of luck- oh well, I say. If they really must they could just have corpmate shoot them. 2. All-systems Shutdown Initiating self-destruct offlines all of your modules, and/or sets capacitor to 0, and/or sets all resistances to 0. This would make it much easier to finish off capitals that are trying to save themselves the killmail, and would not cause any particular problem for anyone using self-destruct to travel or get insurance. 3. Self-destruction generates Killmails Another perfectly merciless solution. Travel/insurance-picking self destructors are not hampered and capital pilots can't worm their way out of a lossmail at all. Why would changing this mechanic be better for Eve? Killmails are the social capital of Eve. PVPers love the pew, and they love to have hard recognition of their victories. That's why killmails were introduced in the first place. That's why people who self-destruct should not be able to avoid lossmails. When a gang pins some capitals and they self-destruct, no one is happy: the killers feel cheated out of their bragging rights, and their victims are still out of their ships. I propose we make at least one party happy. As the Soviets once said, NO MERCY FOR COWARDS! -----
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.08 04:46:00 - [2] Mothership kills are the new carrier kills. So who really cares anymore? You should've just said your epeen shriveled, or some other pubbie crap and this thread would've been better. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
motomysz Militek Industries Integrity Respect Selflessness	Posted - 2008.12.08 04:47:00 - [3] I agree with implementation of any or all of the above.
GeneralNukeEm Free Collective Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2008.12.08 04:49:00 - [4] Edited by: GeneralNukeEm on 08/12/2008 04:49:14 Just make it like losses where NPC's get the final blow; if a player actually touched your ship earlier then they get the mail. Self destructing supercapitals aren't going to be clearing their aggro by jumping to a different system anytime soon.
Meg Lee Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.12.08 04:52:00 - [5] Signed.
Verx Interis Amarr Modicus Dementis	Posted - 2008.12.08 04:54:00 - [6] Edited by: Verx Interis on 08/12/2008 04:55:03 Agreed Also, people selfdestruct to deny the enemy loot. Should be changed. As for the people collecting insurance on ships they don't want, you can always just go get CONCORDed ---- Logins required for this post: 11404 Modicus Dementis is recruiting, join the channel Internet Cafe
Fredrick Trudeau	Posted - 2008.12.08 04:55:00 - [7] Self-destruct is fine the way it is. Go down fighting. Deny your enemy any reward or glory.
DoctorDanny Exotic Dancers Club	Posted - 2008.12.08 04:59:00 - [8] Posts like this make me cry. You've gotten to kill 3 supercapitals in the last week and instead of being happy and playing with your new loot you come here crying about that you did not get your precious killmail. I'd be so very happy if CCP just removed the entire killmail at all. That way we'd be freed of all the immature little killmail collectors too.
Kovid Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2008.12.08 04:59:00 - [9] Self destruct encourages blobbing to make sure you get the kill. Small gang warfare is penalized when a capital ship self destructs as they can do nothing and get no loot.
Ticondrius Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.08 05:02:00 - [10] Boohoo, you didn't get a killmail. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- PROPOSAL: Chaos Incarnate's Face MMORPG: Many Men Online Role Playing Girls

motomysz Militek Industries Integrity Respect Selflessness	Posted - 2008.12.08 05:05:00 - [11] Originally by: DoctorDanny playing with your new loot Why don't you learn about something before you post about it? You get no loot at all from a self destructed ship. Loser.
Steel Tigeress Gallente M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.12.08 05:06:00 - [12] Originally by: motomysz Originally by: DoctorDanny playing with your new loot Why don't you learn about something before you post about it? You get no loot at all from a self destructed ship. Loser. Beat me too it. Folks shouldnt open their mouth and prove there is nothing behind their nose but fingerprints.
FunzzeR Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.12.08 05:06:00 - [13] interesting ideas, why not move it to the Assembly Hall section of the forums so people can formally support it?
Kirra Liu Gemini Industries Inc Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.08 05:09:00 - [14] Edited by: Kirra Liu on 08/12/2008 05:11:01 Originally by: DoctorDanny Posts like this make me cry. You've gotten to kill 3 supercapitals in the last week and instead of being happy and playing with your new loot you come here crying about that you did not get your precious killmail. I'd be so very happy if CCP just removed the entire killmail at all. That way we'd be freed of all the immature little killmail collectors too. It's already been said here that self destructing also blows up the fittings, so no loot. I do think that self destructing should deny folks a killmail, but only if the idea about when a ship begins the countdown, cap is taken to zero and everything is offlined. I think this would make it alittle more interesting and more of a rish for everyone involved. edit: Also, why is there so much talk about the insurance. A mothership can't dock thus can not be insured.
Vitrael Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2008.12.08 05:11:00 - [15] Originally by: DoctorDanny Posts like this make me cry. You've gotten to kill 3 supercapitals in the last week and instead of being happy and playing with your new loot you come here crying about that you did not get your precious killmail. I'd be so very happy if CCP just removed the entire killmail at all. That way we'd be freed of all the immature little killmail collectors too. What loot? Self destruct = no loot. -----
Fredrick Trudeau	Posted - 2008.12.08 05:12:00 - [16] Edited by: Fredrick Trudeau on 08/12/2008 05:12:43 You did not kill the ship, its pilot did. So you don't get any loot or mail. It works as intended. It is the final fy to a gate camper. A bit of grief for them.
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.08 05:13:00 - [17] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Mothership kills are the new carrier kills. So who really cares anymore? You should've just said your epeen shriveled, or some other pubbie crap and this thread would've been better. Originally by: DoctorDanny Posts like this make me cry. stfu donnie your out of your element. OP: they are all decent ideas except the ability not to self destruct at all, should be an option but i agree as with anything in eve it should come with a price (and no, losing you ship isn't a price if you are going to lose it anyways :P). I like the insurance thing. I think insurance should be reexamined across the board. We should see lower payouts on t1, higher payouts on t2 and NO payouts on self destruct or concord related deaths (just my opinion) I'm not sure i like the idea of modules going offline... but I would probably be more interested if the destruction of a ship gave an AoE damage burst based off ship size. Say... 500 damage off a frig, 1000 off a cruiser... 25000 off a carrier (just throwing rough figures out there). Add in variable times for these ship's destructions (30seconds/frig, 3minutes/carrier) and you see a whole different combat element forming instead of 'oh noes, lets deny loss mail' examples: victim pilot has to decide, am i dead anyways and do i have time to self destruct and damaging enemy to help rest of my gang? aggressing gang see's notification, do you have time to kill it? if so press on, if not do we back off and avoid the damage? i'd want to see something like that also come w/ the offlined modules as if ppl back off, your only chance if you deactivate self dest. is to warp out. nothing else. ------------------------------ everybody be cool this is a threadjack! just lay face down on the ground and no one will get hurt!
Kayosoni Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.08 05:14:00 - [18] more like motherships need to be un-****ted. -----------------------------------
Janet Marshall Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.08 05:18:00 - [19] Edited by: Janet Marshall on 08/12/2008 05:19:59 Its just fine, they weren't doing it to deny you your kill mail they were doing it to prevent you from getting the loot. Witch is a very logical thing to do if you know your going to die and you have billions of officer mods on board. Also Learn to adapt. Hint: Kill it faster edit: speeeeeeeling
Kovid Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2008.12.08 05:24:00 - [20] Killing it faster argument is a problem for CCP wanting to promote small gang warfare though. It also an incentive to blob when it's not necessary for the kill, only for the speed versus the scorched earth policy. Killmails are a separate issue.

Talic Xeron Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.08 05:39:00 - [21] I fully support no insurance for self-destructing. It's not like you get insurance money in RL if you burn your house down.... that is provided they can prove YOU did it.
Ruges	Posted - 2008.12.08 05:43:00 - [22] Self destructing your ship so it will not fall into enemy hands makes sence. This tactic has been used threw out history. So if a player can survive long enough to destroy his ships so others do not get the lewt sounds right to me. However those who forced him to self destruct should recieve a kill mail stating that they forced him to self destruct. Just make it somthing like who ever had the person targeted at time of the player activating self destruct gets the kill mail.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.12.08 05:50:00 - [23] I see no problem in self-destruction generating killmails as if you got killed by NPCs. Afterall, the main reason for the suicide isn't the killmail, it's denying the enemy your loot. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
gordon cain Minmatar x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.08 05:51:00 - [24] Just do as everyone else in eve does atm. Bring more people... G Never argue with idiots, they will just drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
NickSuccorso Divine Obscenity	Posted - 2008.12.08 05:52:00 - [25] Edited by: NickSuccorso on 08/12/2008 05:52:44 Quote: Killing it faster argument is a problem for CCP wanting to promote small gang warfare though. Small gangs should be able to kill Motherships? Either way, it sounds like he wasn't getting away, so he did the right thing - Final act of defiance, screwing you potentially out of several billion isk in loot, and the pride of having that piece of paper to say that you've killed the thing. edit: Also, super capital pilots don't really worry about how much they're getting back in insurance money.
Bloody Rabbit Jita Miners	Posted - 2008.12.08 05:57:00 - [26] I think to fix this problem CCP needs to get stop using the kill mail system. Just drop it completely and let those that run around 0.0 and low sec kill things to kill things and not for point whoring. I can't think of another system that gets Eve players more in the mind set of Wow players. So CCP I am asking you to just stop the kill mail system.
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.12.08 05:59:00 - [27] OP needs to look at the meaning of the word 'exploit' in terms of an MMORPG. --- Originally by: CCP Mitnal I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.
Mad Martyr Caldari Kiith Paktu	Posted - 2008.12.08 06:00:00 - [28] I agree about the shutting systems down, if your suiciding you don't need them turned on and giving everyone 2mins clean shooting at you might help nerf km avoiders..
Meg Lee Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.12.08 06:02:00 - [29] Originally by: HankMurphy I'm not sure i like the idea of modules going offline... but I would probably be more interested if the destruction of a ship gave an AoE damage burst based off ship size. Say... 500 damage off a frig, 1000 off a cruiser... 25000 off a carrier (just throwing rough figures out there). Add in variable times for these ship's destructions (30seconds/frig, 3minutes/carrier) and you see a whole different combat element forming instead of 'oh noes, lets deny loss mail' I LOVE this idea, but i think 3 minutes is a bit too short.
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.08 06:06:00 - [30] Originally by: Bloody Rabbit I think to fix this problem CCP needs to get stop using the kill mail system. Just drop it completely and let those that run around 0.0 and low sec kill things to kill things and not for point whoring. I can't think of another system that gets Eve players more in the mind set of Wow players. So CCP I am asking you to just stop the kill mail system. god i hope your just trolling. if not, i'm sure CCP will respect the wishes of the Jita miners corp. suggesting removal of the entire system is silly and childish. what? someone isn't playing eve the way you think it should be played? they induce competition for pvp groups. for some its the only way to really compare/measure how you are doing against an enemy (especially if you aren't interested in capturing space). either way, for many it makes the game more fun. too bad if that ***es on your parade. ------------------------------ everybody be cool this is a threadjack! just lay face down on the ground and no one will get hurt!*

DoU Copy	Posted - 2008.12.08 06:27:00 - [31] Edited by: DoU Copy on 08/12/2008 06:27:26 Edit:
Kaylis Tzu Multiversal Enterprise Inc. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.12.08 06:28:00 - [32] I like the ideas in the OP. I think a 4th option would be not allow self destruct will in combat. This would allow all other options that people use self destruct for intended reasons and still prevent people from screwing people out of a well earned killmail. Ultimately the killmail issue is a minor one compared to the risk and generally losses the pilots attacking the MS take and there isn't even loot to reimburse the effort. All three Cap kills the OP referenced were attacked in subcaps only. CCP keeps paying lip service to reducing the advantages of blobs but this function of the self-destruct feature flys in the face of this effort.
Xori Ruscuv Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.12.08 06:33:00 - [33] How about "*Notify: You can not self-destruct because you are being targeted.*" Or, just remove the mechanic for everything but a pod.
tarin adur Gallente Corp 1 Allstars	Posted - 2008.12.08 07:43:00 - [34] Lol
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.12.08 07:46:00 - [35] New mod, honor scramblers, if used by target they remove aggressors killmail. If used by aggressor, they ensure your killmail even in the event of self-destruct. Tadaa? My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Solomon XI Hoist The Colors. Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.12.08 07:49:00 - [36] Self-Destruct needs to be fixed for all capital class ships, period.
Broken Rose Minmatar Malum Crusis IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.12.08 09:07:00 - [37] Originally by: Vitrael "Uh oh, Hictor's got me and dreads are cynoing in... looks like this is the end!" 04:15:32 Notify Your Nyx will self-destruct in 2 Minutes Don't you think it's about time we revisited this feature? It may have been implemented for any number of reasons, but nowadays it is by and large used by capital and super-capital pilots to prevent an embarrassing loss mail. Hey, yeah, I'm whining- we had three capitals deny us killmails in three separate incidences today (including a Nyx). Personally, I think this behavior is an exploit, albeit an annoying, not a game-breaking one. The only other use for self-destruct I can think of is podding yourself to a home station when stuck somewhere far away. As is such I propose a number of options that will fix the cowardly self-destructing capital issue, but allow the feature to retain its usefulness: 1. No Insurance for Self-destruction A simple and elegant solution- if you self destruct, there is no insurance payout. Capital pilots will have to consider the price of the lossmail against their insurance. If they're willing to lose the insurance, then I suppose they've bought their "dignity". The only flip-side to this would be that people who want to self destruct their ships in peace to collect insurance would be out of luck- oh well, I say. If they really must they could just have corpmate shoot them. 2. All-systems Shutdown Initiating self-destruct offlines all of your modules, and/or sets capacitor to 0, and/or sets all resistances to 0. This would make it much easier to finish off capitals that are trying to save themselves the killmail, and would not cause any particular problem for anyone using self-destruct to travel or get insurance. 3. Self-destruction generates Killmails Another perfectly merciless solution. Travel/insurance-picking self destructors are not hampered and capital pilots can't worm their way out of a lossmail at all. Why would changing this mechanic be better for Eve? Killmails are the social capital of Eve. PVPers love the pew, and they love to have hard recognition of their victories. That's why killmails were introduced in the first place. That's why people who self-destruct should not be able to avoid lossmails. When a gang pins some capitals and they self-destruct, no one is happy: the killers feel cheated out of their bragging rights, and their victims are still out of their ships. I propose we make at least one party happy. As the Soviets once said, NO MERCY FOR COWARDS! Well if you did not bring the dps to finish off the carrier before the timer ended then I'm afraid its your loss not your intended victim. Here is my opinion of why your suggestions will not work. 1, Negating insurance hurts no one but the little guy's, alliances would just suck up the costs and move on. Carriers are the new battleships, most larger alliances would just buy a new one and people would still just self destruct to deny the kill. 2, Not sure what this would resolve except perhaps to allow you a chance to destroy the vessel when all its defensive modules go offline. But if you take into account that the self destruct actually requires the pilot to overload their powercore and the fact you have two minutes to offload as much damage as possible I still dont see this as being much use. 3, ok so generates an killmail, to who the attacker or the person who actually destroyed the ship, the pilot who initiated the self destruct. The reason this would not work is because why should the pirate get the kill when the effort has been purely lacking and they were unable to get the killshot in, where as if the pilot of the ship gets the killmail, he is unlikely to pass the information to those who caused him to self destruct his ship. At the end of the day, self destruct is a mechanic and its working as intended. Suck it up, bring more DPS.
Captain Hack Caldari The Eye.	Posted - 2008.12.08 09:34:00 - [38] cry more baby Then the bears came and started yelling and screaming at me, there were nothing I could do about it, like you cannot help but read my signature.
Ivorr Bigun	Posted - 2008.12.08 09:50:00 - [39] No. Works fine as it is no changes needed.
Azrael Dinn 19th Star Logistics	Posted - 2008.12.08 10:25:00 - [40] Now no offence to the pvp population who cares about the killmails but what is wrong with you??? The point is that the ship gets blown up and how it does that realy doesn't matter honestly. So get a grip of your selfs and try to think the whole picture and not a stupid killmail. I vote the selfdestruction stays. Everyone should have the option to blow them selfs up if they whish to do so. No point removing something that sometimes might ease your trip to empire - Azrael -

Chimii Lecto Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.08 10:31:00 - [41] Can agree with 1# but 2# & 3# is fine as they are. The ship exploded right? So you pretty much succeded in killing it. ---------- /Pretty Posting.
Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.08 11:12:00 - [42] Originally by: DoctorDanny I'd be so very happy if CCP just removed the entire killmail at all. That way we'd be freed of all the immature little killmail collectors too. /signed I do think that the killmails kill the immersion. If you kill, then so be it, if you don't you don't. Having a system in place that allows nothing but epeen stroking generates people who have nothing of value to offer the game with respect to roleplay. This is supposed to be a different universe filled with corporations and factions that sometimes don't get on with each other, pirates that ransom and plunder loot, bounty hunters that hunt pirates and so on. This isn't supposed to be a dogfighting contest to see who can rack up the most kills. If you want that, Go back to playing games like Tachyon or such where killboards were the main feature of the game. I got fed up with Tachyon and that sort of game long ago because I wanted some sort of storyline type game where killmails were less important than the reason to kill. Eve was once that game and yet still with a high degree of PVP, but there was a reason to kill that stayed within the parameters of the gameplay. Now, it's filled with epeen stroking killmail seekers that play for no reason other than to collect killmails. -- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again
Vesta Uaelb	Posted - 2008.12.08 11:26:00 - [43] So your whine is because you didn't get a kill mail? Not that you didn't kill it, or that you didn't "conquor" you victim, but that you didn't get something so show someone else that you did. I don't think the problem is with the killmail system to be honest
Murasaki Midori	Posted - 2008.12.08 11:36:00 - [44] Originally by: Vitrael 1. No Insurance for Self-destruction A simple and elegant solution- if you self destruct, there is no insurance payout. Capital pilots will have to consider the price of the lossmail against their insurance. If they're willing to lose the insurance, then I suppose they've bought their "dignity". The only flip-side to this would be that people who want to self destruct their ships in peace to collect insurance would be out of luck- oh well, I say. If they really must they could just have corpmate shoot them. This is really the only sensible option of the lot. Originally by: Vitrael 2. All-systems Shutdown Initiating self-destruct offlines all of your modules, and/or sets capacitor to 0, and/or sets all resistances to 0. This would make it much easier to finish off capitals that are trying to save themselves the killmail, and would not cause any particular problem for anyone using self-destruct to travel or get insurance. Nope. Why have all your modules shut down? It means you die faster, so why even use it? What's the point of self-destruct then? Originally by: Vitrael 3. Self-destruction generates Killmails Another perfectly merciless solution. Travel/insurance-picking self destructors are not hampered and capital pilots can't worm their way out of a lossmail at all. It should only generate a loss mail. The agressors wouldn't deserve the killmail if they couldn't kill a carrier fast enough. It makes you think about tactics and strategy, not just pew pew (which is fine for small gang warfare - but NOT for capital fleets). Originally by: Vitrael Why would changing this mechanic be better for Eve? Killmails are the social capital of Eve. PVPers love the pew, and they love to have hard recognition of their victories. That's why killmails were introduced in the first place. That's why people who self-destruct should not be able to avoid lossmails. When a gang pins some capitals and they self-destruct, no one is happy: the killers feel cheated out of their bragging rights, and their victims are still out of their ships. Killmail were introduced as statistics. It's a shame they've become such 'social capital'. Then again if you and your gang can't kill a carrier within two minutes, you have no claim to bragging rights whatsoever. You'd be bragging about beating a crippled kid in a 100m race if that's the case. Originally by: Vitrael As the Soviets once said, NO MERCY FOR COWARDS! That's probably one of the reasons the USSR collapsed in the first place.
Nyu Shin	Posted - 2008.12.08 11:36:00 - [45] Edited by: Nyu Shin on 08/12/2008 11:36:49 Vitrael, QR introduced medals to Eve. Create one and award yourself. Maybe "Medal for heroic acts of killwhoring under NO enemy fire." would fit.
Pr1ncess Alia Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.12.08 11:57:00 - [46] Originally by: Murasaki Midori Killmail were introduced as statistics. It's a shame they've become such 'social capital'. Then again if you and your gang can't kill a carrier within two minutes, you have no claim to bragging rights whatsoever. You'd be bragging about beating a crippled kid in a 100m race if that's the case. Mr. ~~Madison~~ Midori, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Lord Zoran House of Tempers	Posted - 2008.12.08 12:06:00 - [47] let people be cowards if they want, at the end of the day they will get a reputation for it.
JabJabVVV Total Mayhem. Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2008.12.08 12:32:00 - [48] Originally by: Dantes Revenge Originally by: DoctorDanny I'd be so very happy if CCP just removed the entire killmail at all. That way we'd be freed of all the immature little killmail collectors too. I got fed up with Tachyon and that sort of game long ago because I wanted some sort of storyline type game where killmails were less important than the reason to kill. Eve was once that game and yet still with a high degree of PVP, but there was a reason to kill that stayed within the parameters of the gameplay. Now, it's filled with epeen stroking killmail seekers that play for no reason other than to collect killmails. /signed It's like being at war, we've all seen the films: Pilot: I've shot down another jerry plane, that makes 3 this week, hurrah. Squadron Leader: lol, stfu, gb2wow; no one's counting. Oh wait, it wasn't like that at all was it... this game nurtures peoples competitive nature and the killmail system is integral to encouraging competition for certain game play styles. Just like a winning fleet battles, successful social engineering, taking stations, having a bigger wallet than someone else are integral to other game play styles. Just because someone isn't playing your way, doesn't mean they're playing badly. As for the ops suggestions; I'd support no insurance for self destruct (along with no insurance for concord kills) and no self destruct with aggression (your crew should be too busy fighting to arrange the scuttling of your ship). ----------- When I was a n00b, I spake as a n00b, I understood as a n00b, I thought as a n00b: but when I became pr0, I put away n00bish things.
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.12.08 12:37:00 - [49] Originally by: Verx Interis Also, people selfdestruct to deny the enemy loot. Should be changed. With respect I disagree. This is a perfectly valid tactic. Scorched earth should remain an option. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
Akiba Penrose Power Seed Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.08 12:55:00 - [50] Originally by: Bloody Rabbit I think to fix this problem CCP needs to get stop using the kill mail system. Just drop it completely and let those that run around 0.0 and low sec kill things to kill things and not for point whoring. I can't think of another system that gets Eve players more in the mind set of Wow players. So CCP I am asking you to just stop the kill mail system. QFT

Josef Odinssen	Posted - 2008.12.08 13:55:00 - [51] RL Naval General Report: "we scored a fine victory today on the field of battle, we cornered a mothership with overwhelming force and after a sustained barrage with its armor heavily defeated the captain was forced to scuttle her, our enemy has been greatly weakened by the loss of a flagship and the war will now turn in our favor". Eve Naval General Report: "Mommy, Mommy, coward player blew up his own ship and now i doesnt get to brag on interwebs that i has killed it! and now i dont get all the hawt officer lootz which is mine! MINE! I wants it! i wants the PREEEEEEEEECIOUS! waaaaaaaaah!"
Noriko Rei	Posted - 2008.12.08 14:02:00 - [52] Scuttling the ship to prevent the enemy from getting any functional gratification (loot) or psychological satisfaction (killmail) should earn you a medal, not a nerf. ...and the idea that small gangs should be able to take out capitals and supercapitals at will is preposterous.
Odessima Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.12.08 14:05:00 - [53] What I dont get is why people seem to think that a small gang should be able to kill a capital or supercapital quickly, killing one should be an accomplishment not an everday thing. I guess it really is about the kill mail.
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.12.08 14:09:00 - [54] Originally by: Lord Zoran let people be cowards if they want, at the end of the day they will get a reputation for it. What was the name of that BoB CEO that chickened out in Delve of all places? Delenda est achura.
JabJabVVV Total Mayhem. Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2008.12.08 14:31:00 - [55] Originally by: Josef Odinssen RL Naval General Report: "we scored a fine victory today on the field of battle, we cornered a mothership with overwhelming force and after a sustained barrage with its armor heavily defeated the captain was forced to scuttle her, our enemy has been greatly weakened by the loss of a flagship and the war will now turn in our favor". Eve Naval General Report: "Mommy, Mommy, coward player blew up his own ship and now i doesnt get to brag on interwebs that i has killed it! and now i dont get all the hawt officer lootz which is mine! MINE! I wants it! i wants the PREEEEEEEEECIOUS! waaaaaaaaah!" Originally by: Vice-Admiral Sir Sydney Fremantle after the scuttling of the German High Seas Fleet at Scapa Flow [You have] violated common honour and the honourable traditions of seamen of all nations. With an armistice in full operation, you commenced hostilities without notice. By your conduct, you have added one more to the breaches of faith and honour of which Germany has been guilty in this war. You have proved to the few who doubted it that the word of the New Germany is no more to be trusted than that of the old. Translated into **** for you: waah, waah the nasty man asploded his ships now we donts getz the lootz. If it's ****ed leet speak you are complaining about then you need to start a thread about it, however, if you think your comparison is, in some way, valid then you are, as I hope I have proved with that quote, wrong. ----------- When I was a n00b, I spake as a n00b, I understood as a n00b, I thought as a n00b: but when I became pr0, I put away n00bish things.
Tippia Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.12.08 14:59:00 - [56] If you didn't get the kill, you didn't deserve the kill. Suck it up and be happy the enemy is dead. No sig for me, thankyouverymuch.
Rainhailer Gallente Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.12.08 18:00:00 - [57] Originally by: tarin adur Lol Tarin, hush.
Gantor Tesla	Posted - 2008.12.08 18:50:00 - [58] Scuttling a ship is a real life tactic to stop your enemy from getting their hands on your equipment.... sounds familiar doesn't it? If you have a problem, kill the ship faster.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.08 19:13:00 - [59] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 08/12/2008 19:17:14 Originally by: Vitrael 1. No Insurance for Self-destruction I strongly agree. It would remove the mineral cap on these ships and realistcly speaking, irl noone would be reimbursed if he'd ever selfmade the accident by purpose (irl I work on mainframes for an insurance compagny atm). Originally by: Vitrael 2. All-systems Shutdown Not needed imo, especially if you push the wrong button by mistake. Right clicking the ship blah blah blah. If you saw some of my topics, I can't bear right clicking menus. Originally by: Vitrael 3. Self-destruction generates Killmails I'd prefer "having a module activated less than 10 seconds berfore and after the initialisation of a self-detruction generates a special killmails named after 'made this player in this ship selfdestruct' ". Originally by: Vitrael Why would changing this mechanic be better for Eve? NO MERCY FOR COWARDS! Fully agree, but, as a french, I prefer "SHAME ON COWARDS" oneoneone :) Fetchez la vache !
Madius	Posted - 2008.12.08 19:24:00 - [60] Originally by: Gantor Tesla Scuttling a ship is a real life tactic to stop your enemy from getting their hands on your equipment.... sounds familiar doesn't it? If you have a problem, kill the ship faster. Indeed. Funny how EVE players talk about it being a "cold harsh place" and then turn around and bawl for nerfs when they don't get loot/killmails/whatever.

Tarron Sarek Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities	Posted - 2008.12.08 19:25:00 - [61] First off I'd like to say it's a bit saddening to read all the chest-beating and name-calling. Would be nice if features & ideas discussions don't turn into a CAOD side track. Now on topic. Basically the self-destruct game mechanics are fair, since everybody can do it, and next time it might work in your own favour. That being said, a slight drawback for self-destruct might not be a bad idea. After all EVE is supposed to be all about decision-making, and all about a harsh world. I guess it only makes sense if that results in difficult decisions. Currently it's more of a no-brainer. If you're stuck and you know you'll go down, self-destruct is the best option. So in order to make it a difficult, yet balanced, decision, self-destruct should either lose one of it's advantages, or gain a new disadcantage. I disagree with making it completely the opposite, so that self-destructing yields almost only disadvantages, because then nobody would do it and the game would lose depth by losing one of it's crucial decisions and combat options. ___________________________________ Balance is power, ~~guard~~ hide it well "Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam"
Wrangler Al	Posted - 2008.12.08 19:33:00 - [62] I concur.. if a capital is bogged down in nothing but small ships that CCP see fit for capitals to be unable to kill, and there is no help available to save your sorry ass... then self destruction is a valid option. As for the kill mail, I dont think they deserve one, but you could implement a Scuttle option which just destroys the Modules & cargo and reduces your structure to 1, there-by allowing them to finish off the smoking hulk. and get a token kill mail. Signature pic exceeds the size limit. ~WeatherMan
Furriian	Posted - 2008.12.08 20:17:00 - [63] Edited by: Furriian on 08/12/2008 20:17:21 Self Destruct is a valid tactical option used to deny your enemy access to your modules/cargo/etc. its fair, its legit
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.08 20:24:00 - [64] Originally by: Gantor Tesla Scuttling a ship is a real life tactic to stop your enemy from getting their hands on your equipment.... sounds familiar doesn't it? If you have a problem, kill the ship faster. irl no insurance compagny would reimburse you if you self destruct an insured good. Fetchez la vache !
Madius	Posted - 2008.12.08 20:32:00 - [65] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: Gantor Tesla Scuttling a ship is a real life tactic to stop your enemy from getting their hands on your equipment.... sounds familiar doesn't it? If you have a problem, kill the ship faster. irl no insurance compagny would reimburse you if you self destruct an insured good. A RL insurance company would outright turn down just about any EVE player due to the risk, so I fail to see your point.
Noriko Rei	Posted - 2008.12.08 20:34:00 - [66] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: Gantor Tesla Scuttling a ship is a real life tactic to stop your enemy from getting their hands on your equipment.... sounds familiar doesn't it? If you have a problem, kill the ship faster. irl no insurance compagny would reimburse you if you self destruct an insured good. In the real world, no insurance company would insure privateer warships. ...and on a related note, I've got no problem with insurance being entirely removed from the game.
Dr Karsun Gallente Integrity.	Posted - 2008.12.08 21:11:00 - [67] Well, I don't really see the problem. Two minutes is a hell lot of time to kill a ship. Far more than you need. He won't self-destruct untill he sees he'll lose. Make it fast, blob up and kill the bastard, or take ransom for his ship. Personally, I will NEVER give ransom to anyone, paid it once, got podded a sec after. It just doesn't work right. So, back to the topic. Just blob the capital. I'm surprised about one thing though. I've never seen a nyx in action, ever. But it's desription says it's immune to all forms of EW... So, it's also immune to warp disruptors and scramblers, right? At least it should be, it's electronic warfare after all... So it -should- be able to just fly off, right? But that's just a bonus question for you. ------------------------ My Deviantart profile
Mistress Suffering Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.12.08 21:26:00 - [68] EVE should not be pushing people to fly larger gangs simply to avoid having the target self-destruct. That's bad for gameplay. The heroic struggle where each side of the engagement is perfectly matched and one wins by inches should be the end goal that we're shooting for. As such, the mechanics should reward that. Currently if you want a killmail and loot, EVE tells you you need to overkill. I contend that is undesirable. I like two of the proposed options: 1. Self-destruction generates a killmail on exactly the same rules that NPC kills do (if an NPC gets final blow on you, km is generated and sent to the highest human participant). If no humans have put damage against you, then no km is generated. This is a trivial change for CCP since they already have this exact code in place for NPCs. 2. Self-destruct switches off if the ship is locked. Less importantly, I'd also say skip nuking all modules for a self-destruct. Sorry to those of you who haven't spent much time killing capitals with small ships, but its actually completely trivial to tank for 2 minutes against a small gang with capitals or supercapitals. I'm glad CCP finally removed DD through POS shields. That was a hugely overdue change. I'd say KMs generated for self-destruct would be another one that's been overdue for ages.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.08 21:47:00 - [69] Originally by: Madius Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: Gantor Tesla Scuttling a ship is a real life tactic to stop your enemy from getting their hands on your equipment.... sounds familiar doesn't it? If you have a problem, kill the ship faster. irl no insurance compagny would reimburse you if you self destruct an insured good. A RL insurance company would outright turn down just about any EVE player due to the risk, so I fail to see your point. irl pewpew in spaceships don't exist if you want to go that way Fetchez la vache !
Madius	Posted - 2008.12.08 22:24:00 - [70] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn irl pewpew in spaceships don't exist if you want to go that way Congratulations on figuring that out, have a gold star.



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