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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.10 22:51:00 -
[1]
Originally by: royal killer Everyone got greedy, and when they found out about this exploit, nobody said anything
But, 4 whole years....that's like 1460 days and nobody said anything! absurd. (didn't know about this btw.)
Sorry to burst your bubble.
But did you have a look at dys prices BEFORE invention?
Actually there were even free dys moons because it was just not worth to harvest those moons. There were only so few t2 items built compared to the time when invention became possible that the demand for those moon production were just very low.
Invention changed the demand for these things drastically. So you only can really count from this point of time. Before invention those whole moon products were more or less unsellable and worthless.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.10 23:26:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Loa Vaporator I'm now only wondering how CCP will flatten things out ... by spawning 50 or more of dyspro moons?
Ever heard of alchemy?
No?
You do note need any of those rarity64 materials any more. They all can be replaced by rarity16 materials like platinum which is really abundant and accessable by tons of people.
So ... no, they do not need to spawn any moons.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.11 01:09:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Ion Bartzabel Some math..
4 years is 35040 hours of production of a pos. if ferrogel price was 30.000 isk / pu, and you would get 400 units per hour. 35040h x 400u = 14.016.000 units x 30.000
And there your math fails you.
Ferrogel was actually worthless most of the time because the fuel costs of the poses to run the reactors were more expensive than the revenues from selling ferrogel and all the other stuff.
No one wanted it because no one used it. Only 1/10 of t2 items were built most of the time during these 4 years. A few t2 bpo holders had the stuff, perfectly researched bpo's as well. And there was compared to now almost no demand for t2 because it was so expensive.
Your 400 bil profit for 4 years for every large pos is completely out of scale. It might be 60 bil prt pod for the last year and 0 bil for the last 3 years (because no one needed that stuff). Still a big number and quite unfair, but not nearly close to 400 bil you mentioned.
Furthermore ... everyone benefit from the cheap stuff. Except of course those big alliances who had all the control over the dys moons - they did suffer because they couldn't sell their products for the price they could have gotten.
All others, especially those who use and buy t2 items greatly profited from the cheap and abundant supply of these materials.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.11 01:24:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Virtuozzo
Originally by: Re Mi I have always wondered who was intervening in the Dysprosium market. I could always see it artificially being propped up. No matter what hit that market it always stayed artificially high. Which brings me to a VERY disturbing conclusion.
Wars may have been fought over dysprosium, not in order to sell it, but to keep it off the market so that it wouldn't crash the reaction prices.
First somewhat sensible post since a few pages ago.
LOL
So you produce 50 or 100 times the amount the moons will produce, literally flood the market with stuff and then buy off those people who flood the market in the same way you do? To finance wars to keep 1% more materials comming from a few moons off the market?
Yeah...very reasonable indeed...
But the more I think about it, the more I wonder why no one from the economic department noticed the huge amount of materials comming out of nowhere.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.11 09:22:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Miyamoto Uroki Yes, moon mining was introduced 4 years ago, so the guy who made this public says this bug had been ingame and working since introduction of POS system at all.
Makes me a very sad panda if true. Had a hard time earning my little isk to be able to buy me my little ships and CCP doesn't survey the big economy flows? What does this Mr. Economy professor do all day long at your company? At least admit that he is only working at ccp for a day per month...
I know a bit about the moon material markets including ferrogel, fermionic condensates and such.
Only the couple of last weeks there were stupidly low prices for these and big sales going on. Before that the market was quite stable and fixed to the dys (and to lesser degree prom).
A decoupling of price of produced items from the prices of materials need to build these items shows that something strange is going on. You can look at the market history and see that only in the recent weeks the price of those ferrogel etc. dropped heavily (and below production costs).
Also: the prices for moon materials/moon products before invention were so ridiculously low that even some dys moons were not harvested just because no one needed that stuff. So those 4 years are hugely exaggerated.
Because prices were more or less okay and coupled to the dys/prom prices until a few weeks ago I think that this bug is in game and abused since the alchemy introduction.
What I wonder is why no one from economic department noticed anything. They surely have numbers about production and consumption?
Also: can the economic department at least give now the numbers of pre- and post-alchemy production of ferrogel etc. Compared with usage of dys and usage of the dys-substitutes?
Better they do the basic stuff first instead of some fancy trends and correlations and what now. Just plain old production and consumption numbers, please.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.11 11:00:00 -
[6]
Originally by: hundurinn
Thats what I'm saying. CCP needs to confirm or deny the rumor that it has been going on for 4 years, the longer they wait the worse the effect will be. The only thing they have said so far is that there was an exploit but it has been fixed nothing more.
That is true. But they best investigate it completely first.
Otherwise they have to come up every few days with new facts maybe contradicting their old findings and so on.
Give them a little more time, I suppose they were themselves quite suprised and now need to root out the cheaters.
As some people already said, this might not that easy as it seems to be. There will most probably lots of alts involved and a good deal of money laundring. Of course no one wants that they ban innocents also! At least I would be more than ****ed off if they would ban my char only because my buy order in jita got filled from one of these guys.
So it needs time to give accurate details.
In the meanwhile I can only repeat myself: The numbers in Jita indicate that this cheating is going on in a big matter since only a few weeks. Before that the prices of ferrogel etc. were tightly coupled (or correlated as people say) to the dys/prom prices. But since a few weeks the prices were decoupled and ferrogel dropped and dropped, together with hypersynaptic fibers.
These "4 years" are utter nonsense. 4 years ago there was no real market for ferrogel and the likes, only few people did do that. No much money was in it then.
Also: one char got permabanned and all his shiny isk wiped out. Then he posts anonomously on a 3rd party forum and throws in numbers which are not believable as explained above. Yet everyone believes that guy and yells at CCP. Shame on the playerbase, really.
More civil manners wouldn't hurt to have. Also think a bit more about the circumstances and if that what people claim to have happend could be true and do match the numbers and realities on TQ. Only then post.
Wild accusations without any base than rumours from banned cheaters are not really something which anyone can be proud of.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.11 11:17:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Tell me, how can a limited resource increase in volume and decrease in price, even as demand for T2 stuff keeps increasing?
Many of the dys moons were monopolized. If the monopoly breaks up all these moons become available again and the supply is increased. Also it depends on how much those moons are utilized, if they can harvest constantly or if there is lots of fighting and so on.
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Weeks? We have pretty solid indications that it's been going on at least for a year.
Then show us these indications! Just babbling without any facts is completely worthless.
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Also, there was a thread in december last year complaining about how ferrogel was being sold for under manufacturing costs...
That thread was complete nonsense, sorry to say. It was nothing more than a whine that the op there couldn't earn as much money as before.
It was until recently perfectly possible to earn a good bag of isk from ferrogel reaction. Setup buy orders cheap for the materials in Jita, sell the product for good price.
No cheating involved. Of course if you direct buy the expensive dys and the peak of the market speculation and if you sell to low buy orders then your profit margings are indeed small. But so what?
Actually I remember that post because I replied in there with exactly the same argument there at that time. It was never unprofitable to produce ferrogel until recently.
Price of Dys. 64.000 Price of Prom. 18.000
Price to build ferrogel from materials bought in Jita including pos fuel costs: 16.500 Price to build fermionic condensats: 26.500 Price to build hypersynaptic fibers: 5.400
Now look at the numbers and prices in Jita and you will see that dys was much cheaper in between. The non-profit of ferrogel production is nothing than a myth to keep people off from trying it and thus decreasing the profits for the established people.
Unless is see good proof which is backed up by numbers I have no reason that this exploit is going on in a big scale for more than a few weeks! Maybe it was going on in a small scale, but who cares about small scale.
The big cheat didn't last longer than some weeks. Only since then you saw big loads of stuff dumped very cheap onto the market and the price crashed. Check yourself the price history in Jita. Very easy to see.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.11 11:44:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd
and wasn't it a "banned cheater" that exposed something about wrongly spawned t2 bpos, titan account sharing, and a number of other items? yet, that 'banned cheater' turned out to be in the right...
Does this mean now that every banned person gains a lot of credibility and is so much more believable now because he cheated? Somehow I am not sure what you mean with the above.
And especially strange it is that this person is so much more believed than the market data which strongly indicates big frauds for several weeks but not before.
But yeah ... 4 years cheating draws of course much more attention than 8 weeks (or whatever) of cheeting.
Don't trust anyone! Don't believe a word of what people say. Look at the data yourself, think about if things are resonable and if they match the existing data. Only this is the right way to approach things.
Things which we cannot confirm or reject (for example: i petitioned it 4 years ago already and they closed the petition saying it is all okay) we need to completely ignore if we want to have a sound deduction.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.11 14:23:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Mr John22ta Edited by: Mr John22ta on 11/12/2008 14:02:26
Originally by: Sma Balveda
Quote: On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy,
Nice historical allusion there....
Yeah, nice to see they have a sense of humour about this
Hmm, is this exploit really comparible to pearl harbour?
Pearl harbour??
He was referring to the assasination of Marcus Tullius Cicero on the 7th Dec 43 BC!!
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.11 14:41:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Gambuk Why the pearl Harbor reference?
I dont think an exploit in a game even comes close to being able to use that. Regardless of how serious it is..
Didn't you read my previous post?
He referred to the assiasination of Cicero on the 7th Dec 43 BC!
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.11 16:52:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Rramar Claime 4 years???
CCP reaches new levels of fail every day.
Nope, sorry not 4 years. Just a couple of weeks.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.11 17:08:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Carnal Knowledge
Originally by: Gnulpie
Originally by: Rramar Claime 4 years???
CCP reaches new levels of fail every day.
Nope, sorry not 4 years. Just a couple of weeks.
So how would you know?
So how would you know it is 4 years? Because just some dude said so? Well, now I say different. Whom to believe now?
My numbers indicate a couple of weeks. And they are based all on the trade in Jita. Easy to see that something fishy is going on there for the couple of last weeks.
There is NO indication at all that this is going on for years.
Of course there can be hidden parameters...
But at least my claim is backup by numbers. The claim of the other guy is backed up by nothing.
In the end we have to wait for CCP and their numbers. And then it is up to you if you believe them or not. But if you do not believe them, then posting here is quite pointless, right?
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.11 19:15:00 -
[13]
Originally by: James Hetfeild Getting free moon candy is bad mmmkay.
Serious question. Was the exploit only viable with ferrojello?
Nope.
I bet 100 mil isk that hypersynaptic fibers were even more produced and frauded. That material just crashed during the past weeks. Way even almost below building costs.
Why did no one of the economic team looked deeper at this? Are they only doing 'trend analysis' and fancy stuff. Don't they have even the most basic production/consumption tools?
I hope they will get better tools now so that a quick glance at the right statistics will alarm them instantly if there is something foul going on. Oh and a question. Did the economic team investigate the prices before the big bang? Are they investigating now to find out how big the damage was?
Until we get more news from CCP (which is hopefully soon) the only thing to do is to be patient.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.11 19:50:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Allanah
Originally by: C4w3 GOD blees Chribbster and eve-search, And if this is TRUE! Shame on you CCP! and Expose the moneyprinting four!!!
taken from eve-search http://eve-search.com/thread/216634/page/2#47 ...
If this has indeed been going on for 4 years as suggested by the SH forums and this eve-o post, then the whole market is completly ... i dont even know what to say. The market, the 0.0 mechanics, just about everything in the game would be VERY affected by this. This is bad...
I can't see anything about reactors there.
Only some 'pos exploits' were mentioned. That could have been everything and nothing.
It says "the corp suffered from pos exploit". I can't see how the producing materials out of thing air makes a corp suffer in any way.
Throwing some vague bit of story here and there together, ignoring the vast lack of background information and then twisting and bending it so that it fits into ones pre-occupied perception is not the right way to approach this matter.
It is good to see that people started digging and found such posts like the linked one. I hope that CCP will investigate all this. CCP should do it right and that needs time, time to follow all those links and traces. So, give them the time!
Keep digging! But be careful with incomplete information. |
Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.11 20:31:00 -
[15]
Originally by: C4w3 Ill throw something at you.... the pilot wich made the post back then are same pilot banned today as his corp¦s ..... saga continues.
No need to throw anything. The facts are known to me.
But these information are all so incomplete and piecework. Of course the leader is in charge of all these things. And if pos' are buggy he cares about it.
Do you really suggest that there was just only one bug and that is exactly that one mentioned?
And why did he say "corp suffered from exploit". Why would his corp suffer from gaining products out of thin air?
Sounds more like problems with pos shields, passwords or whatever than some exploit where you gain something out of nothing.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.11 21:22:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Mr Manufacture
Originally by: Orree
Why yes, I do. Between 75-100m for a large tower, depending upon how fitted, in sov 1+ (where the vast majority of our towers are located). We have 55 large towers in total.
I think you're confusing the cost per week, with the cost per month... doh
Erm no? Fuel for a large pos costs around 250k isk per hour. That is roughly 6 mil per day, that is 180 mil per month. If you have sources for cheap isotopes/ozone then the costs are reduced a lot. Also sov gives you some fuel bonus.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.12 07:38:00 -
[17]
I have several questions to CCP --------------------------------------
- Since what time was the exploit used?
- Which materials exactly were manufatured using the exploit?
- What amount of moon materials were created out of thin air, and how many moon materials were created legally?
- What is the maximum amount of high end materials we can produce from high end moons without using alchemy?
- What is the amount of high end moon materials we currently consume for building t2 stuff?
- What is the estimated impact on the economy of removing these extra materials?
- Are the numbers which were the foundation for invention and alchemy clean or do they includ the usage of the materials made by the exploit?
Thank you in advance.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.12 08:25:00 -
[18]
Originally by: chumbucket First alchemy in no way will make up for this.
Why not?
Please provide the numbers which back up your statement. How many units were built using the exploit? How many units we can build from high end moons? How many units can be built by alchemy?
Originally by: chumbucket
The market is completly destabialized at this point.
Maybe there are some big speculations going on and that's why the market is in uproar? You can earn easily billions if you just spread a rumour at the right time.
That's what lots of people are doing. And it is fun
Originally by: chumbucket
The addition of moons is all that will fix this or alchemy needs to be boosted
Can you provide any numbers, please?
Originally by: chumbucket
Why save dysprosium for the large powerblocks. Put more rares in low sec for other people to have a chance.
They will have a chance how? The big guys will just jump in their cap fleet with 100+ capitals and smash any resistance. Why would that be different in low sec?
Originally by: chumbucket
Alchemy,reverse engineering(make it finally work)and invention all need boosted!
Invention costs are a fixed amount of isk. Why would a chance in that help? If you pay 20 mil or 30 mil for inventing a HAC, what does it matter much? The buyer will pay it.
Alchemy will work fine. Actually currently we have the right situation to fire it up! In the past alchemy wasn't worth it because the market was flooded with cheap (and cheated) materials, now alchemy can compete - finally!! There is no need to change anything.
Originally by: chumbucket
CCP must make this right and they must do it very fast
Doing things very fast, especially difficult investigations, usually contradicts doing things right.
I am 100% confident that CCP is working as hard as they can to get this desaster sorted out. At the weekend there is already a CSM meeting and we will hopefully get more info there. This is the time for the CSM to prove themselves and to see if they are worth the hullabooh they made about the whole CSM stuff.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.12 08:56:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Mussaschi
Well, invention is broken by old t2 bpo that give any holder a 20% mineral + invention costs advantage, effectivly shuting down some markets for inventors. But your right. That has nothing to do wiht this exploit. Apart that this 20% more mineral cost will beneffit the old t2 holders even more, when mineral costs are rising. But than, who said that eve was fair.
All the same old - and wrong - argument.
In the past the t2 bpo holders could dictate the prices, but not any more.
What do you think happens if they drop cheap stuff onto the market in the attempt to squeeze everyone out of the market? They just get sold out within a few minutes!
There is absolutely NO WAY that you can build enough stuff from bpo's to saturate the current markets. I can build 10, 20, 50 times faster than any bpo simply because I can install 10, 20, 50 bpc concurrently. Sure I do not make that much profit per single run, but in the sum I make more much money than any bpo.
Additionally I can freely chose and adept to the market while when I have a bpo I am always fixed to that item and if the market turns away from certain items (aka ccp nerfs stuff) then the bpo holders are really in a misery because they cannot change their product. But I can happily switch within a very short time to the more profitable product.
So ... the advantage the bpo holders have is not really a big one, and only under special circumstances. Invention is fine and working very well.
It is the moon reactions and the resulting products which are at discussion here. And it would be good to have some numbers so that serious discussion could start.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.12 09:09:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Lord Untrustable interesting information relating to corps which have closed down (or been closed down) in the last few days:
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/corpchanges.html
Sorry, that list is complete crap and absolutely worthless.
I picked a few of the corps on the list and ... they are all alive and not closed at all!!
They only left their alliance at that date. Either their joined a new alliance then or they just are without alliance now.
But they are not closed down! Please don't post such nonsense. One could think that a smear campaign is going on. At best it is just incompetency resulting from grabbing some information out of context here and there and mixing them together, twisting them until they fit some pre-occupied perception and point of view.
Maybe now you can see why it takes some time for CCP to go through all that stuff? They have to double and triple check everything!
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.12 09:38:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Lord Untrustable
Originally by: Gnulpie
Maybe now you can see why it takes some time for CCP to go through all that stuff? They have to double and triple check everything!
LOL do you think that CCP is doing their research at this THREAD?
Lol, suggesting that someone would think so is quite funny in itself
However, the mentioned example shows that if you come up with some data you still have to double check them. And then you need to think about what you have found there and which traces to follow next.
This all takes time, a lot of time if done properly.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.12 14:27:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Typhena This is getting even more serious ...
And .. nothing from CCP yet ..
And what should they write? That they are throwing everything they have into this investigation? And that they will inform us as soon as they have new results?
Oh wait ... they already said that ...
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.12 19:53:00 -
[23]
At the moment I think that at least the whole D2 and following alliances/corps knew about this exploit. Actually it is difficult to believe that the other alliances were unaware of this exploit over such a long time.
If they used the exploit like the already revealed cheaters did is some other question.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.12 22:44:00 -
[24]
With people yelling around and screaming for the guilty people to get lynched:
Who actually got hurt by that exploit?
Certainly not the inventors and t2 bpc builders because they were provided with cheap material to build their stuff.
Also not the people who use all the t2 stuff because they had to pay less for it.
Then maybe the big alliances in 0.0 who owns all the dys moons and couldn't get the price they would have gotten without the exploit? Well, maybe yes. But they are already insane rich, so it was not really a big loss for them.
Maybe those people who fought G/D2/Evoke/MH? Well ... it seems that all the unfair and endless money didn't help those alliances a single bit. Look at the political landscape and see if these alliances are in any way important - if they still exist.
Then maybe the pirates in 0.0 were hurt because the t2 fitted ship they killed didn't give expensive loot any more? Maybe, but on the other hand people wouldn't have fitted that much t2 stuff if it would have been still very expensive.
So ... who really got hurt and had an actual loss? I don't know it, tell me.
On the other hand ... who gained and had a profit?
Well, of course first those exploiters. But then almost every person who bought a t2 item profited from cheap prices. The inventors profited also because everyone wanted cheap t2 stuff. The smaller alliances and corps profited because the dysprosium-cartell didn't dictate prices any more. Traders profited because they were able to distribute the cheap stuff all over the world. PvP people were happy because they could afford the good t2 ships now which were to expensive in the past.
So, hmm, yes ... almost everyone had some benefit, only few were at a loss. Does that justify the exploiting? No. But it shows that the exploit wasn't really as nasty as people might think.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.13 10:53:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Gamer4liff
You don't mind paying 3x for T2 goods?
Care to share your calculations with us?
A quick calculation on my side shows that with alchemy ferogel will be around 40-45k. That is roughly twice as expensive as a few weeks ago. I suspect fermionic condensates around 70k and hypersynaptic fibers at 8k.
With these numbers a rapier costs around 20-25 mil more to build with invention. That is 45% more. Not 400%.
I can understand that some people want market panic so that they can sell their stuff much overpriced, but they hysteria about insane expensive t2 mods and the end of the world is just absurd.
Ships will become 50% more expensive at worst, modules will be affected that a bit less. And that is if ONLY alchemy is used and no dys supply at all comming in on the market. With the still ongoing supply from 0.0 prices will rise even less.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.13 11:51:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Alton Jin Just destroy all the T2 BPO ingame, the world will be better.
Oh yeah, sure. And the guy who saved up all his money and paid 30 bil to buy a t2 bpo last week deserves that his gameplay gets destroyed too, right?
Besides that, what have t2 bpo's to do with exploiting moon reactions?
It is really unbelievable what sh*t people talk if there is just enough uproar made.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.13 12:20:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Zlut Gothica Why did they suddenly discovered the "exploit" we're talkin' about? Alchemy!
We may should've see it coming, but we did'nt care. Those who did got early warning to reset their POS's.
There is just one flaw in this ... sever backups.
If CCP is serious about squashing the exploiters then they need to go through their backups and look there also. Besides the market transactions will be mined for 'interesting' transactions as well I hope.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.13 13:40:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Wasdasjetzt ... The bottleneck will come.
Oh yeah .. the sky will fall ... eve will explode ...
Do the math yourself. I did it and assumed all high end reactions were replaced by alchemy. The numbers I got from that didn't worry me to much. Looks all okay to me. 30-40% higher prices for invented ships at worst, but that's all.
If you are clever, you are already planning ahead now
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.19 21:53:00 -
[29]
The last update (19th Dec) was quite good.
Good info there. Thanks about that.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.19 22:06:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Originally by: Avon News item has been updated
It seems that the disgruntled banned guy was not lying after all. Everything he posted has been confirmed except for the petition which may yet appear...
Etho, it seems that you are complaining about something. Of course such a bug shouldn't have happened but so what? Thing is, it happened. And? Should we now shot ourselves and die? Life goes on man! No one is without flaws and the real question is how to deal with the flaws.
What are you now complaining about? That CCP investigated after CCP got aware of the bug? Or do you complain that CCP keeps confirming that there was a bug and that it was exploited?
What should they do instead? Shutting down Eve, telling the players to go home and just close CCP?
The first update (the csm minutes) didn't look that promising and I posted some good deal of criticism also, but now I think that things are on the right track. They are telling us what they are doing, what they have done and what the results are so far and what they do not know yet.
Again, if you are not happy, tell us what they should do instead and what could do better. And no, full external auditing is complete nonsense and that forensic expert stuff is also just idiotic. What are the REALSITIC options they have? I think they are doing the best they can right now. But if you know better, I am all ears.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.19 23:13:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
After almost a week they still havenothing new, that alone shows the interest...
Of course if they couldn't confirm some of the rumours and refute them it is 'nothing new', right? For example are they done going through all the petitions (which wasn't easy since they were at some time outsources as far as i understood) back to 2004 and found nothing there. But "nothing new".
They investigated and checked all their staff and the csm people. But "nothing new".
They released the exact number of poses involved so far(178) but "nothing new".
It is good to be watchful and to be critical. But it is not reasonable to overdue it and ignore facts.
Quote:
Quote: I think they are doing the best they can right now. But if you know better, I am all ears.
Ok, here goes:
1) disclose the name of the banned chars 2) disclose the data about the ammounts of advanced materials sold, ISK, etc they have and the method they used to find it. 3) disclose any account that received huge amounts of assets or ISK from these accounts without giving a similar amount of resources in exchange 4) go back to 3 until all cheating accounts are linked 5) destroy those assets
And if you do not trust CCP - which is your good right - then why would you trust those names made public?
To number 2: they found 178 pos with one or two reactors. So that is equivalent to roughly 2.5 mil ferrogel per day - of course also fermionic condensates were made and probably hypersynaptics also plus intermediate products.
Yes, once the investigation is over, I would like to see the numbers of fraud materials and isk also. But at the moment the investigation is still going on. Makes no sense to do step number B before step number A.
Yes I agree with step 2 quite, it is reasonable.
Quote:
I couldn't care less about bans. But the assets must be destroyed, and the only way of knowing they really were is by disclosing this data above.
Again, if you do not trust CCP that they destroyed the assets then why would you trust them to release all the involved names and just not only a few of them? Makes not to much sense to me.
About the individual names I do not really care that much, but I would like to learn the names of the involved corps and alliances. Because I do not believe that the involved alliances did not benefit from all these illegal isk.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.20 18:33:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Avon
Either you can take CCP on faith, and hope that they have learnt the lessons from previous problems, or you can't.
If you can, great. If you can't, why are you paying them? You obviously will only accept any disclosures which suit the view of events you already have, rather than the facts that CCP may give.
Well, there I think you are mistaken Avon, though your other posts are quite fine.
There is a third option: to bug CCP enough until they change their course. That was seen in the t20 incident. First they tried to hush it up but the players made a big uproar and pushed CCP to investigate more etc. etc. In the end CCP installed the IA department, safety procedures and what not. Who knows if that all would have happened without the playerbase voicing out their concern that loudly?
This bug exploit is on a completely different level though. No inside cheating happened. No cover-up attempt happened.It was a bug, undiscovered for a long time, exploited by some people in the past and especially during the last months (with noticable impact on the market since several weeks but not longer). CCP is proceeding with the investigation, they are on a good way as far as I can see.
To those people who yell and scream at CCP: why are you still here? If you mistrust CCP that much, then why are you giving them their money/time? Get some experience from real life, then come back and be surprised that CCP is doing more than most other companies/organisations would do in such a case.
People shouldn't stop asking questions in general, but they should learn to know when it is enough.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.01.18 15:37:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Mikhalio Just posting to say the Pos exploit, for an economist was impossible to predict in much the same way subprime bubbled along totally undetected in federal data reports.
Since there were many respectable people warning for exactly this credit-crises based on fantasy prices for houses and that they warned about exactly that scenario which we now experience - do you mean that the pos exploit should have been discovered by ccp on their own and much earlier?
If not for the whistleblower I wonder how long the exploit would have been gone undetected.
Anyway ... any news from the investigation? |
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