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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Technovar
Gallente Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.12.17 09:42:00 -
[2251]
Originally by: Callib Gor'Karrithe
Have you ever even worked in the IT Industry? This is actually the way things are done. Most notably up here in the icy arctic of Canada. These positions are known as "System Testers." Where the first requirement is an innate understanding of the code you're testing.
Hmm. Yes. White box testers, who are paid something from 50-75% what a good dev makes. It's not a good situation, but sadly, it's the case.
Originally by: Callib Gor'Karrithe
Tell you what, try working in the IT field for a few years in a REAL shop, in stead of some smoke-and-mirrors shop like you've been working in. Some developers prefer to find the holes in other peoples' code rather than write their own code. Seeing as how testing is this surprisingly integral part of the development process, you actually do get paid as much as if you were an actual developer. My shop in point, where developers of ALL KINDS (including testers) are qualified by one of six "Systems Officer" titles, ranging from one through six inclusively. This is actually the way shops run.
Sorry to impugn your e-peen, dude. I've only been in this business 15 years. Note, *I* don't look down on testers or devs that choose to work in test. Perhaps in Canada the pay scales and intangibles are similar, but there's also likely a reason why most of the good Canadian devs I know are here in the States. I like many things about Canada, not least of which being that it's not the US politically, but there are certainly more opportunities here.
Originally by: Callib Gor'Karrithe
Here's a quick breakdown of the percentage of time (and importance) placed on each portion of the Systems Development Lifecycle (SDLC):
10% - Analysis and Requirements Gathering (this role is often played by a programmer hired under the title of an "Analyst" and is notably a position involving NO CODE, but instead talking between the client and the Development Team... it notably pays a salary equivalent to that of developers)
"Well-well look. I already told you: I deal with the goddamn customers so the engineers don't have to! I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?"
Originally by: Callib Gor'Karrithe
So on whatever messed up planet you live in, they need to discover how programmers work... or more aptly: a programmer is what you are not. Please don't try to masquerade as someone you're not. It will be pointed out.
Ahh. Financial IT or in-house business code? Fine, Mel. You're a "real programmer". Code that has to be delivered on schedule to consumers that act like the crowds here in the forums? There's a different story there.
Originally by: Callib Gor'Karrithe
More to the point, testing is actually the backbone of a properly designed application. Whatever messed up shop you're in that pays testers less than developers needs to get their head on straight and start paying their employees what they're worth. It's either that, or take one look at the IT industry and then leave. There are enough ****ty players of the game like CCP and Microslop... we actually don't have room for more.
Hint: I agree strongly with you, but no matter how much King Canute orders back the tide, it still comes in, and guess what happens when your gold-plated "pays everyone what they're worth" shop mentions how much that'll cost?
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Technovar
Gallente Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.12.17 09:55:00 -
[2252]
Originally by: Technovar
Originally by: Callib Gor'Karrithe
So on whatever messed up planet you live in, they need to discover how programmers work... or more aptly: a programmer is what you are not. Please don't try to masquerade as someone you're not. It will be pointed out.
Ahh. Financial IT or in-house business code? Fine, Mel. You're a "real programmer". Code that has to be delivered on schedule to consumers that act like the crowds here in the forums? There's a different story there.
Ahh, upon reading further down the thread, I was close. Government bureaucracy coding, and for health care no less. It's much easier when you have public funds to play with and the big stick of "people will DIE" to wield. It's not so great when you have to stand in front of the CFO or the board to justify the cost of that testing department that isn't adding the new flashy features that sales and marketing demand. Seriously, it's a whole different world outside of government where deadlines and costs actually matter.
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Technovar
Gallente Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.12.17 10:04:00 -
[2253]
Originally by: Callib Gor'Karrithe
It doesn't really shock me... when you think about it, the kind of organisational requirements to bring a company up to the expected bar of IT standards, I guess it's understandable that they'd try to avoid such work. It's pathetic and no excuse... but I mean... I am kind of lazy, so I can understand the lack of drive to fix the mechanisms of terrible problems.
I'm not too shocked that CCP is willing to risk that. They actually let things slide for so long that it already happened. I've taken the courtesy of sending you an EVE-mail to identify said product, just for entertainment sake. Knowing the forum rules, I'm not going to advertise said product here, lest the forum mods censor it. So I mean... having already let it slip for that far, what do they still have to lose? Sure, the product I'm talking about isn't an exact clone, and might lack the whole "One world, one server" approach... but a lot of details are still foggy.
Interesting. I'm curious about the timeline and price point that this supposed new product will meet, if they're working to government/medical/banking CYA standards rather than the usual standards in computer game coding. I know of a few games that are written by programmers that write code for the military/government. One of them is in the neighborhood of $250 per seat (with a dongle to lock it down), and unsurprisingly it's not exactly the most popular product out there. It's beautiful and accurate, though. I bought it.
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Zeul
Caldari PLYT Center of Research and Development
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Posted - 2008.12.17 12:38:00 -
[2254]
LOL...CCP you are noobs
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AncientLord
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Posted - 2008.12.17 14:13:00 -
[2255]
Edited by: AncientLord on 17/12/2008 14:14:51
For those who didnt belived that this exploit was here for so long time.
Post from 2005
Linkage
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Karille
Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.12.17 14:37:00 -
[2256]
Edited by: Karille on 17/12/2008 14:52:13
Originally by: AncientLord Edited by: AncientLord on 17/12/2008 14:14:51
For those who didnt belived that this exploit was here for so long time.
Post from 2005
Linkage
I'm going to punt you back to 2005. (ingame)
Did you even read the post you linked to?
A post in a thread about ship reimbursement that states someone "suffered" from an exploit and was "frustrated" when the solution provided doesn't work is hardly evidence of a free reaction exploit. Taken in context of the tread and the events in game around that time in game, the post you linked is most likely about shooting through starbase forcefields.
And if they do have video proof let them pull that crap out. I'll be convinced and join the rabble then.
Vote for Karille next CSM cycle. Forum players need a voice too. |
AncientLord
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Posted - 2008.12.17 14:38:00 -
[2257]
Originally by: Karille
Originally by: AncientLord Edited by: AncientLord on 17/12/2008 14:14:51
For those who didnt belived that this exploit was here for so long time.
Post from 2005
Linkage
I'm going to punt you back to 2005. (ingame)
Did you even read the post you linked to?
A post in a thread about ship reimbursement that states someone "suffered" from an exploit and was "frustrated" when the solution provided doesn't work is hardly evidence of a free reaction exploit. Taken in context of the tread and the events in game around that time in game, the post you linked is most likely about shooting through starbase forcefields.
I wont even comment on your....
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Millenia Fallenwing
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Posted - 2008.12.17 17:25:00 -
[2258]
Edited by: Millenia Fallenwing on 17/12/2008 17:28:25 Just out of interest,
Does the recent sales of T2 BPOs from: Manticore, Huginn, Hulk and others. Other mod prints are also being sold in other threads who have direct links to the same place.
Aswell as 60-80 Million Skillpointed Supercapital spec chars by Band of Brothers have anything to do with BoB with a high negative wallet due to recent EVOL directors being banned?
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Millenia Fallenwing
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Posted - 2008.12.17 17:34:00 -
[2259]
Selling Dirty BPOs for clean Isk.
BoB Directly http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=943877
A BoB Broker http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=946885
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Justice Starcatcher
H A V O C
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Posted - 2008.12.17 18:16:00 -
[2260]
Originally by: Karille Edited by: Karille on 17/12/2008 14:52:13
Originally by: AncientLord Edited by: AncientLord on 17/12/2008 14:14:51
For those who didnt belived that this exploit was here for so long time.
Post from 2005
Linkage
I'm going to punt you back to 2005. (ingame)
Did you even read the post you linked to?
I'm with Karille on this one. That link is just troll bait . And, stinky troll bait too.
What the... |
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Jinx Barker
Caldari GFB Scientific
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Posted - 2008.12.17 22:35:00 -
[2261]
Originally by: Millenia Fallenwing Edited by: Millenia Fallenwing on 17/12/2008 17:28:25 Just out of interest,
Does the recent sales of T2 BPOs from: Manticore, Huginn, Hulk and others. Other mod prints are also being sold in other threads who have direct links to the same place.
Aswell as 60-80 Million Skillpointed Supercapital spec chars by Band of Brothers have anything to do with BoB with a high negative wallet due to recent EVOL directors being banned?
Not that I did not notice recent sell by members of BoB of their T2 BPOs, but there is no way to know the personal reasons behind it. However, I am curious, where did you dig up that EVOL directors being banned or BoB negative wallets.
As of till now, Ev0ke are the only ones implicated....
Care to provide the source of your statement, or is it pure conjecture?
::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
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GunnerC
Bessemer Inc Silent Requiem
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Posted - 2008.12.18 08:42:00 -
[2262]
Edited by: GunnerC on 18/12/2008 08:42:53 A purely personal statement, my final post and I will not be responding to replies:
I have two accounts I pay for and one I use GTC for. I have been a player for over two years. During the next 12 hours I will be discontinuing them all.
The aspects of this that have particularly got to me are:
1. As someone who enjoyed the financial/market side of the game, this has totally skewed the playing field, by so much as to make all efforts put in to acquire isk by 'legitimate' routes almost meaningless. 2. The volume of isk likely to be involved (my estimate from the 'facts' that are available) means that the economy will be stained by this illicit isk for months/years to come. 3. CCPs response to this seems better than to previous issues, though time will tell if enough info comes out (and yes I can see they do need time to dig), but the fact that 'issues' is a plural is enough to sway me. 4. Whilst it appears not to be a factor this time I am strongly opposed to game developers playing in the game itself, unless they are specifically identified as GMs and do not concern themselves with the affairs of other players. As I understand it CCP are still allowing developers to be actively involved in major alliances - not cool!
Good luck to all those that remain. I suspect you may need it.
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.18 10:20:00 -
[2263]
Edited by: Glengrant on 18/12/2008 10:21:35
Originally by: GunnerC
A purely personal statement, my final post and I will not be responding to replies:
I have two accounts I pay for and one I use GTC for. I have been a player for over two years. During the next 12 hours I will be discontinuing them all.
That's your choice and I'm sorry you don't enjoy EVE anymore. See you in a year when you are back. :-)
But ...
Originally by: GunnerC 1. As someone who enjoyed the financial/market side of the game, this has totally skewed the playing field, by so much as to make all efforts put in to acquire isk by 'legitimate' routes almost meaningless.
Pff - that part makes no sense. Every time a big patch changes some features or new features get introduced (just think invention as an obvious big example) the market moves by as much and more as this exploit has done.
A few people made a lot of money by cheating. A part of that money just vanished again by closing those accounts. But to the rest of the economy it's just a bit of supply changes in some T2 input materials. It doesn't change any meaning for the rest of the market at all. Prices fluctuate all the time. Sometimes due to patches, sometimes due to wars and disruptions in logistics.
Originally by: GunnerC 2. The volume of isk likely to be involved (my estimate from the 'facts' that are available) means that the economy will be stained by this illicit isk for months/years to come.
Nope. The total amount of money didn't actually change by this - it will just distribute a bit differently again. The effects on the economy as a while will actually be small and not matter at all soon. T2 products might appreciate in price for quite a while - but that's part of the market and not such a big deal. They won't be nearly as high as pre-invention. If current information is correct and the exploit was only used widely in most recent months then prices will just roughly go back to where they were before big scale abuse happened.
Originally by: GunnerC 3. CCPs response to this seems better than to previous issues, though time will tell if enough info comes out (and yes I can see they do need time to dig), but the fact that 'issues' is a plural is enough to sway me.
Then don't bother to ever again play any MMOG. With your expectations you will be disapointed. Realistic expectations lead to less frustration. :-)
Originally by: GunnerC 4. Whilst it appears not to be a factor this time I am strongly opposed to game developers playing in the game itself, unless they are specifically identified as GMs and do not concern themselves with the affairs of other players. As I understand it CCP are still allowing developers to be actively involved in major alliances - not cool!
You said it yourself - wasn't a factor this time. Was a factor just that one time and I'm sure CCP has better monitoring now.
OTOH devs being involved in the game does have advantages for us players: 1) They understand the game better 2) It makes a big diff whether the game is just a way to make money or something you personally love and have a stake in. See what SOE did with a game like SWG (http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html). That's what you get when beancounters make all the decisions and there is no personal connection.
I'd rather have a dev scandal every 5 years then a company who doesn't love its game and just sees it as a product to milk for money, use it up and then sell the sequel or something else.
Originally by: GunnerC Good luck to all those that remain. I suspect you may need it.
Perhaps - but not for the reasons you have given here. ;-)
Have fun --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.18 10:30:00 -
[2264]
Originally by: Zeul LOL...CCP you are noobs
Go - make a MMOG, keep it successfully running and expanding for over 5 years while some of your players will complain whatever you do or don't do and then come back and tell me you had no issues. Fat chance.
As you probably haven't ever done anything like this it's fair to say the noob is you (and the rest of us too of course).
Oh the difficulties of sitting at home and imagining everything you would have done so much better while not actually having to risk or prove anything.
Silly troll. :-) --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
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Azuraito
Caldari Villains
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Posted - 2008.12.18 12:03:00 -
[2265]
Originally by: GunnerC Edited by: GunnerC on 18/12/2008 08:42:53 A purely personal statement, my final post and I will not be responding to replies:
I have two accounts I pay for and one I use GTC for. I have been a player for over two years. During the next 12 hours I will be discontinuing them all.
The aspects of this that have particularly got to me are:
1. As someone who enjoyed the financial/market side of the game, this has totally skewed the playing field, by so much as to make all efforts put in to acquire isk by 'legitimate' routes almost meaningless. 2. The volume of isk likely to be involved (my estimate from the 'facts' that are available) means that the economy will be stained by this illicit isk for months/years to come. 3. CCPs response to this seems better than to previous issues, though time will tell if enough info comes out (and yes I can see they do need time to dig), but the fact that 'issues' is a plural is enough to sway me. 4. Whilst it appears not to be a factor this time I am strongly opposed to game developers playing in the game itself, unless they are specifically identified as GMs and do not concern themselves with the affairs of other players. As I understand it CCP are still allowing developers to be actively involved in major alliances - not cool!
Good luck to all those that remain. I suspect you may need it.
I will be remaining
We dont want cry baby's like you anyhow, you could always try Angels Online
LaVista Vista for president! .
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CyberGh0st
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.12.18 13:21:00 -
[2266]
Originally by: Phillipx Ok, I've quietly watched and read what is going on and here is my take on it
Some guy said he noticed it 4 years and petitioned it. It was never fixed. periodically throughout the past few years have gone unheeded. Now all of a sudden, it goes public and all hell breaks loose.
The original outing of the guy on the "other forum" stated that it was somewhere int he neighborhood of 2500 to 3000 BILLION isk worth of cheating.
so 400m isk for a 60 day gtc at $14.95 US is $9343.00 and change. Now I pay every month for my game since I cant seem to make enough isk to buy a gtc every month, so the cash comes out of the bank. But this guy didn't have to do that, he just set up his reactions and came home to pay dirt every day.
and I used the low end number, someone check my math, but I'm pretty sure I'm right.
sorry guys, i think ccp owes all of us something in addition to everything else. this isn't a dev giving out some bpo's, this is economy subversion on a grand scale. I for one am very upset about all of this, Why don't we all just buy some isk, this was even worse than that, at least the isk buyers and sellers were actually using the mechanics to sell thier isk. but nooooo ccp say dont buy isk but lets this a55hole get away with free isk for 4 years. sorry im not buying it, they are trying to appease the populace
flame on and i dont care about the typos...
Actually, the guy that posted this post that got everything out in the open was banned 1st. So what actually happened was that this guy may have known for this bug for 4 years ( he could ofc also been stretching the truth, and it may have been only 3 years or whatever ), he send some bug report ( probably not in the correct way, but still he did ), then after abusing this for maybe 2 years, he gets banned. So from my perspective, CCP started banning people 1ST and only AFTER this, it gots out to the public. Honestly, this is the way it should go. It only took way too long ofc.
Greetz Cyberwiz aka CyberGh0st aka Mentakh Active @ EvE Online Favorites : DAoC-SI/SWG Pre CU-NGE/Ryzom Retired @ WoW/LOTRO/WAR/Planetside/Entropia/UO/Lineage/GW/EQ/Jumpgate/Dofus/AoC |
Zorash Xanten
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Posted - 2008.12.18 18:26:00 -
[2267]
Originally by: GunnerC Edited by: GunnerC on 18/12/2008 08:42:53 A purely personal statement, my final post and I will not be responding to replies:
I have two accounts I pay for and one I use GTC for. I have been a player for over two years. During the next 12 hours I will be discontinuing them all.
The aspects of this that have particularly got to me are:
1. As someone who enjoyed the financial/market side of the game, this has totally skewed the playing field, by so much as to make all efforts put in to acquire isk by 'legitimate' routes almost meaningless. 2. The volume of isk likely to be involved (my estimate from the 'facts' that are available) means that the economy will be stained by this illicit isk for months/years to come. 3. CCPs response to this seems better than to previous issues, though time will tell if enough info comes out (and yes I can see they do need time to dig), but the fact that 'issues' is a plural is enough to sway me. 4. Whilst it appears not to be a factor this time I am strongly opposed to game developers playing in the game itself, unless they are specifically identified as GMs and do not concern themselves with the affairs of other players. As I understand it CCP are still allowing developers to be actively involved in major alliances - not cool!
Good luck to all those that remain. I suspect you may need it.
Can I haz ur stuffz?
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.12.18 22:05:00 -
[2268]
Originally by: Glengrant
Go - make a MMOG, keep it successfully running and expanding for over 5 years while some of your players will complain whatever you do or don't do and then come back and tell me you had no issues. Fat chance.
As you probably haven't ever done anything like this it's fair to say the noob is you (and the rest of us too of course).
Oh the difficulties of sitting at home and imagining everything you would have done so much better while not actually having to risk or prove anything.
Silly troll. :-)
Because to criticize the incompetence of someone in a field you have to be good in that field right? I hope you never find an incompetent medic in your life, because by your logic you just have to accept you are worse than him and let him do his job as he sees fit...
Oh, and please check the thread bellow, and post your opinions. Whatever they may be, support it or not, it is a matter worth discussion, in my opinion.
Lack of transparency =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.19 01:34:00 -
[2269]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Because to criticize the incompetence of someone in a field you have to be good in that field right?
Nope - you don't have to be good at it. This forum clearly shows that everybody can have an opinion without putting much thought into it by just making things up and demand whatever comes to mind first.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel I hope you never find an incompetent medic in your life, because by your logic you just have to accept you are worse than him and let him do his job as he sees fit...
Nope. But IMHO you didn't get the example right. Taken your medic this is more like patients showing up and accusing the medic that he allowed the patient to get a cold and then not fix it in 5 minutes.
CCP is accused of being incompetent because a very big and complex game doesn't work perfectly all the time and not being able to go through a mountain of data and provide detailed answers within hours.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel Oh, and please check the thread bellow, and post your opinions.
Already done. Another thread the world doesn't need. sigh
Originally by: Etho Demerzel Whatever they may be, support it or not, it is a matter worth discussion, in my opinion.
Not everything is worth discussing without end.
Unrealistic expectation leading to frustration. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.12.19 02:54:00 -
[2270]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 19/12/2008 02:55:25
Originally by: Etho Demerzel Nope. But IMHO you didn't get the example right. Taken your medic this is more like patients showing up and accusing the medic that he allowed the patient to get a cold and then not fix it in 5 minutes.
CCP is accused of being incompetent because a very big and complex game doesn't work perfectly all the time and not being able to go through a mountain of data and provide detailed answers within hours.
CCP is accused of being incompetent because in these last 5 years it has:
- lied to its customers multiple times; - been negligent regarding its employees manipulations in game; - banned innocent people because this people exposed its lies; - been negligent towards its own petition system allowing things like this to happen; - been negligent towards its own game failign to realize an exploit of these propotions;
If a medic behaved like this he wouldn't only lose his license but go to the jail as well.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Already done. Another thread the world doesn't need.
sigh
Yeah, because any opinion that differs from your own is uneeded in your world right?
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Not everything is worth discussing without end.
Unrealistic expectation leading to frustration.
I reckon that 3 days is "without end" for impatient people like you. Fortunately you don't HAVE to discuss about anything you don't want, do you?
And by the sighs in your post and the bitterness, you seem to be the frustrated one. Maybe you should let go of all these things that stress you to much and leave the discussion for those who enjoy it, like me. I am quite happy abot it, I can assure you. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
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XxHey BabyxX
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.12.19 10:18:00 -
[2271]
Look at the pathetic attempt of Damage Control by (former) Ev0ke/G Members.
It's even worse on the German Eve online Forum.
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.19 10:57:00 -
[2272]
Edited by: Glengrant on 19/12/2008 11:01:05
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
CCP is accused of being incompetent because in these last 5 years it has:
- lied to its customers multiple times;
I've been around since the beginning and don't remember a single one. A bit of marketing spin here and there - sure - no saints in the real world. People claiming they lied ain't making it true.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel - been negligent regarding its employees manipulations in game;
I guess they were a bit naive in the beginning in that they trusted their colleagues not to be as stupid as t20 behaved. I'm sure they have better checks now. Plus the whole affaoir will have been a warning to potential cheats. One case - get over it already.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel - banned innocent people because these people exposed its lies;
Again - I don't know of a single case where that happened. A banned user spinning his own version is to me not automatically more credible than CCP.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel - been negligent towards its own petition system allowing things like this to happen;
I'm sure some stuff fell through the cracks here. Would be surprised if otherwise actually. I guess in your mind there are a few petitions per day, well written and easily handled. In my mind I see a deluge of silly stuff and people whining about every little thing they misunderstood or didn't like. The GMs handling that will try to get through their daily load as fast as possible - partly because players otherwise whine about how their petitions weren't resolved right away. And of course you hire or rent out that work - or would you expect devs and menagement to handle petitions? So there will be miscommunications. Again - your benchmark seems to be perfection while mine is the real world. Some low level of **** up is unavoidable (and you can't know which little thing later turns out to be a big deal). Your requirements only mean that every company is incompetent - but then the label is meaningless.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel - been negligent towards its own game failing to realize an exploit of these proportions;
Depends on what really happened - which neither of us really knows at this time. Difference is that I don't believe every self-proclaimed recently banned whistle-blower and I don't assume that everything that CCP does is a coverup.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Yeah, because any opinion that differs from your own is uneeded in your world right?
How did you you know? ;-)
No - I have no problem with people having different opinions. I enjoy the occasional debate - obviously. :-)
But it is my opinion that these threads get blown out of all proportion. This whole material creation thing for example - according to some people here it's soemthing that somehow damaged the market permanently - while actually it will have very little effect. Players who just start now will not know what we're talking about - market is working fine. Invention had had a vastly bigger effect on the economy.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Fortunately you don't HAVE to discuss about anything you don't want, do you?
Right. But I have to go through all the drivel to find the occasional worthwhile stuff on the forum. Plus the whole pitchfork and torch mob thing here does annoy me. Enough to try to stand in the way.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
And by the sighs in your post and the bitterness, you seem to be the frustrated one.
Yup - my unrealistic expectation of people here behaving more reasonable lead to me getting frustrated. Agreed. :-)
--- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
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Mothercare
Elite D.I.S Organisation
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Posted - 2008.12.19 14:40:00 -
[2273]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel CCP is accused of being incompetent because in these last 5 years it has:
- lied to its customers multiple times; - been negligent regarding its employees manipulations in game; - banned innocent people because these people exposed its lies; - been negligent towards its own petition system allowing things like this to happen; - been negligent towards its own game failing to realize an exploit of these proportions;
With almost a quarter of a million player as player base, I would be surprised to see if not at least some few moron did actually believe this to be true as well.
However the vast majority of player donĘt buy this conspiracy crap. So if your are not a moron, I then wonder: For who do you work? Why do you try to hurt CCP business and our game? What is your hidden agenda with posting this type of crap?
Did you post this because you a are moron?
As I see it, your are either a moron and do actually believe in this crap that been repeated over and over again till all the morons start believe it was true or your are not. Then you likely have a hidden agenda with your bull talk. And what is that? Did they not reimbursed your lost ship? Did they not act to the minute as it pleased your whims? Did your mother not breast feed you when you was a kid?
WHAT is wrong with you?
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Demonos Silentium
Caldari Nictus Astartes Harmonious Ascent
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Posted - 2008.12.19 14:54:00 -
[2274]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Update: This matter will be brought up at a CSM and CCP meeting this upcoming weekend.
damn long weekend.
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Karille
Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.12.19 15:10:00 -
[2275]
Originally by: Demonos Silentium
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Update: This matter will be brought up at a CSM and CCP meeting this upcoming weekend.
damn long weekend.
Damn bad at forums.
Vote for Karille next CSM cycle. Forum players need a voice too. |
Demonos Silentium
Caldari Nictus Astartes Harmonious Ascent
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Posted - 2008.12.19 15:33:00 -
[2276]
yeah. both topics. this and that had no real conclusions. only lots of talk. which is sad
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.12.19 17:14:00 -
[2277]
Originally by: Glengrant
I've been around since the beginning and don't remember a single one. A bit of marketing spin here and there - sure - no saints in the real world. People claiming they lied ain't making it true.
Go to the ghost trainign thread and you will see the most recent one. Several others came before. In the T20 incident, in the ISD reporter incident and so on.
I know you are a fanboy and won't accept any argument against your idols, but any attempt of defending them from this is silly, really.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
I guess they were a bit naive in the beginning in that they trusted their colleagues not to be as stupid as t20 behaved. I'm sure they have better checks now. Plus the whole affaoir will have been a warning to potential cheats. One case - get over it already.
T20 was the one who was caught. Wherever there are people caught it is likley there are smarter people doing the same that are not. But even so, this was the result of their policy, which generates conflicts fo interest, and was negligent in policing those conflicts. It still is as IA is just a figure head department.
Quote:
Again - I don't know of a single case where that happened. A banned user spinning his own version is to me not automatically more credible than CCP.
This version was confirmed by CCP. Kieron himself had multiple posts about the subject trying to damage control. They didn't manage to point a single motive for the ban. The real motive was that he showed their dirty.
And he was not the only one. There was an ISD reporter who suffered the same fate.
This while they let SirMolle post real life information about people in this forum without consequences. Nice isn't it?
Quote:
I'm sure some stuff fell through the cracks here. Would be surprised if otherwise actually. I guess in your mind there are a few petitions per day, well written and easily handled. In my mind I see a deluge of silly stuff and people whining about every little thing they misunderstood or didn't like. The GMs handling that will try to get through their daily load as fast as possible - partly because players otherwise whine about how their petitions weren't resolved right away. And of course you hire or rent out that work - or would you expect devs and menagement to handle petitions? So there will be miscommunications. Again - your benchmark seems to be perfection while mine is the real world. Some low level of **** up is unavoidable (and you can't know which little thing later turns out to be a big deal). Your requirements only mean that every company is incompetent - but then the label is meaningless.
I work in development, in a big company. We subcontract, we give support, and I can assure you that even though we are far from being perfect we would never simply igbnore a complaint and bury it. There are a lot of mechanisms to avoid this from happening because it is the negligent action most likely to result in a sue.
Overload of the GMs means undercontracting which is not a justification or an excuse, it is the negligence itself...
Quote:
Depends on what really happened - which neither of us really knows at this time. Difference is that I don't believe every self-proclaimed recently banned whistle-blower and I don't assume that everything that CCP does is a coverup
No, you believe that everything CCP says is the absolute and inconditional truth. And we know part of what happened and the part we know is already enough to conclude that they slacked off. Badly.
The Economist afirmed that they didn't detected it before because it was not in the market, and they would have to be looking for it to find it. Meaning they only used to check the amrket and nothing else. I don't know about you, but I would make periodic scans for duping checking exactly this, from time to time if I was in charge. It is the single most common exploit in any online game. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.12.19 17:21:00 -
[2278]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 19/12/2008 17:21:30
Quote:
No - I have no problem with people having different opinions. I enjoy the occasional debate - obviously. :-)
But it is my opinion that these threads get blown out of all proportion. This whole material creation thing for example - according to some people here it's soemthing that somehow damaged the market permanently - while actually it will have very little effect. Players who just start now will not know what we're talking about - market is working fine. Invention had had a vastly bigger effect on the economy.
If it is growing without proportion, it is in part because some people feel so offended by it, I don't have a clue why, that they feel compelled to attack those that are rightfully demanding transparency about a service they pay for and complainign about the quality of this service to the company that sells it. Which is very within their rights.
And if the said company decides to ignore them, it is also within their rights to quit, to make bad PR about them, and even sue them. CCPs lucky is that it is based on Iceland, if it was in US it would be flooded by lawsuits by now...
Quote:
Right. But I have to go through all the drivel to find the occasional worthwhile stuff on the forum. Plus the whole pitchfork and torch mob thing here does annoy me. Enough to try to stand in the way.
So if you are opting to discuss, don't complain about it.
Quote:
Yup - my unrealistic expectation of people here behaving more reasonable lead to me getting frustrated. Agreed. :-)
As is my unrealistic expectation of people behaviours, which you prove incorrect. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.12.19 17:27:00 -
[2279]
Originally by: Mothercare
With almost a quarter of a million player as player base, I would be surprised to see if not at least some few moron did actually believe this to be true as well.
However the vast majority of player don’t buy this conspiracy crap. So if your are not a moron, I then wonder: For who do you work? Why do you try to hurt CCP business and our game? What is your hidden agenda with posting this type of crap?
Did you post this because you a are moron?
As I see it, your are either a moron and do actually believe in this crap that been repeated over and over again till all the morons start believe it was true or your are not. Then you likely have a hidden agenda with your bull talk. And what is that? Did they not reimbursed your lost ship? Did they not act to the minute as it pleased your whims? Did your mother not breast feed you when you was a kid?
WHAT is wrong with you?
Maybe what you should ask yourself is what is wrong with you. To make an useless post, attacking another poster instead of challenging his ideas in any reasonable way. But I know how to make ad hominem arguments too, which are about the only answer your post deserves. Wanna see?
You are either:
- An outraged CCP employee; - One of the cheaters trying to cover his ass; - A CCP fanboy trying to keep his illusions;
In either case, I fear I have to tell you you are very bad at what you are trying to do... =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Squirrrel
Gallente Squirrrel Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.19 17:31:00 -
[2280]
And after reading the minutes again, I still find it off that EyjoG was the CCP employee to respond to most of the CSM questions, even the non-economic ones...
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