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Tac Ginaz
Gallente Coalition of Nations
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Posted - 2008.12.13 20:14:00 -
[1]
Will EVE work on these drives?
Im thinking of setting up a SSD 128gb as my OS/App drive.. win64bitXP, EVE and other games in the SSD and the rest of my data and stuff will remain on my old hard disk (set as 'd' drive).
So, CCP, will EVE run ok in an SSD internal disk or do you guys not recomend this be done? -------------------------------------------------
Re-Design Stealth Bomber Weapons! |
Johann Callasan
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Posted - 2008.12.13 20:20:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Tac Ginaz Will EVE work on these drives?
Im thinking of setting up a SSD 128gb as my OS/App drive.. win64bitXP, EVE and other games in the SSD and the rest of my data and stuff will remain on my old hard disk (set as 'd' drive).
So, CCP, will EVE run ok in an SSD internal disk or do you guys not recomend this be done?
Um..
You DO know, of course, that the EvE SERVER FARM uses SSD technology in order to keep up with all the database requests, right?
The client should not even care if the disk is solid-state or a actual disk, as long as everything's there. Especially as the server runs on 'em.
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Karille
Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.12.13 20:22:00 -
[3]
They are functionally identical to spinny platter hard drives.
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Mashie Saldana
Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.12.13 20:25:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Tac Ginaz Will EVE work on these drives?
You might suffer from improved performance, but except for that I can't think of any issues.
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Rifter Drifter
Minmatar You're Doing It Wrong
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Posted - 2008.12.13 20:58:00 -
[5]
i recently upgraded to 2x 120gb SSD's (got em cheap thru work) and i must say they are amazing, biggest boost in performance in pretty much every task.
Vista64 - 4gb Ram Q6600 9800 Gt
... but my favourite pieces.. those OCZ 120gb SSD's
Boot time is around 15 seconds as opposed to a minute.. everything loads so fast.. yummy basically! BUY THEM! :D:D:D
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Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2008.12.13 21:06:00 -
[6]
EVE will work just fine. Just don't expect miracle performance improvements. Typical homeuser doesn't play to SSD's strenghts.
If you buy it, buy it because they're quieter and more reliable.
If you want speed, buy a 300gb velociraptor and put OS and EVE in the first partition, sized as small as possible. That places it on the outside at the platter. This has the highest I/O, and shortest seek/read/write times.
Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
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Amber Coldheart
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.12.13 21:06:00 -
[7]
Generally speaking, SSD is vastly superior for read operations, and vastly inferior in write operations. The only series of home market SSD's that even approach acceptable standards is the Intel X-25, and thats quite pricy (personally, i'll probably wait at least another year before considering SSD drives).
I'd advice to read around on the net for some tests, and unless you have already bought an SSD drive, check up on the brands available, and avoid SSD's with a JMicron JMF602 controller like the plague (horrible horrible performance)
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Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.12.13 22:32:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Dantes Revenge on 13/12/2008 22:35:15
Install Eve to a ramdisk and ask that question again.
Clarified: Ramdisk and solid state drives are different in only one way, Ramdisk is volatile memory and will lose data when you shut down, solid state drives don't. Other than that, there is no real difference. -- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again |
Skyr
Black Plague.
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Posted - 2008.12.13 23:58:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Dantes Revenge Edited by: Dantes Revenge on 13/12/2008 22:35:15
Install Eve to a ramdisk and ask that question again.
Clarified: Ramdisk and solid state drives are different in only one way, Ramdisk is volatile memory and will lose data when you shut down, solid state drives don't. Other than that, there is no real difference.
Except for that RamDisk uses your system memory which has about (pulling it from air here) 100x the performance of any SSD/HDD so yeah... no difference...
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.12.14 00:12:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Kerfira on 14/12/2008 00:16:41
Originally by: Skyr Except for that RamDisk uses your system memory which has about (pulling it from air here) 100x the performance of any SSD/HDD so yeah... no difference...
If you want to go REALLY fast and not use system memory, get one of these (once they're out): Gigabyte I-RAM Box Chassis
I've seen it demonstrated on video, and it literally boots Windows XP in 2 seconds flat! That is 2 seconds going from the end of the POST bios test until Windows is functional! It'll work equally well for EVE.
As for SSD's, there is a problem with most of them, one which is not good news for their EVE use. Most SSD's are optimised for sequential read of large(r) pieces of data, and suffer a severe degradation in speed when making small random-access reads. Some (most/all) are affected to the point where read speed can be as low as an average of 5MB/s (yes, 5 megabyte per second) if the pieces of data you want to read are really small (like a few KB) and randomly placed. Unfortunately, EVE is doing its file access in exactly that way both in its internal data files files (graphics and other stuff), and in the cached files. The next generation SDD's may overcome this problem, but most/all of the current ones suffer from it.
If you want fast HDD access for EVE, either use a Ramdisk using system memory, an external Ramdisk like the above, or a specialised high-speed conventional HDD like a VelociRaptor (which is what I use).
If going the Ramdisk way (either) you'll have to some way backup the data when you shut your computer down, and reload when you start again. Some system memory Ramdisks do this for you, and the Gigabyte one above keeps your data for 10+ hours (internal battery).
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Mashie Saldana
Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.12.14 00:17:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Kerfira If you want to go REALLY fast and not use system memory, get one of these (once they're out): Gigabyte I-RAM Box Chassis
They have been out for years and never became much of a hit because they were, tbh, quite rubbish. I'm surprised they are still for sale.
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Robdon
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Posted - 2008.12.14 01:32:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Robdon on 14/12/2008 01:33:10 I have one of these... http://www.mtron.net/English/Product/ProductDetail.asp?itemcode=MSP-SATA7535
Boots windows in about 5 seconds.
Eve runs lovely and quick.
Would highly recommend one of these, bit on the low side for capacity, but runs fast :)
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.12.14 02:06:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Tac Ginaz Will EVE work on these drives?
Im thinking of setting up a SSD 128gb as my OS/App drive.. win64bitXP, EVE and other games in the SSD and the rest of my data and stuff will remain on my old hard disk (set as 'd' drive).
So, CCP, will EVE run ok in an SSD internal disk or do you guys not recomend this be done?
What you hardware consists of is a non issue as long as you got the appropiate OS's.
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Xianthar
STK Scientific The Initiative.
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Posted - 2008.12.14 02:07:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Johann Callasan
You DO know, of course, that the EvE SERVER FARM uses SSD technology in order to keep up with all the database requests, right?
The client should not even care if the disk is solid-state or a actual disk, as long as everything's there. Especially as the server runs on 'em.
actually no it doesn't, an SSD is not a RAMSAN and they in fact have nothing to do with each other. but nice attempt at making him look dumb
in general be aware that the current crop of SSD drives that are on the market have terrible write performance, this will manifest itself many ways and will be amplified by an OS that likes to use its page file (windows loves to). If i were you i would wait a few months until the new lines from Intel and Samsung reach market as they have drastically better write performance.
If you do jump the gun put your page file on the mechanical drive with your data.
cheers,
x
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Tac Ginaz
Gallente Coalition of Nations
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Posted - 2008.12.14 04:24:00 -
[15]
well thats the idea.
set the SSD drive as the boot OS and running the game and have it write the swap file and cache crap into the mechanical drive.
Other games like WW2OL have severe performance issues due to the hard disk taking too long to load objects from the hard disk into the ram (so most people use ramdrive to compensate)... but games very rarely will write to the hard disk and then retrieve data from there for real-time game stuff (that I know of at least).
Hence, SSD for OS/run the game .. the OS having the swap file and cache on the mechanical hard disk .. and the game 'calling' the data insanely fast from the SSD.
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Re-Design Stealth Bomber Weapons! |
Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.12.14 11:49:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Kerfira If you want to go REALLY fast and not use system memory, get one of these (once they're out): Gigabyte I-RAM Box Chassis
They have been out for years and never became much of a hit because they were, tbh, quite rubbish. I'm surprised they are still for sale.
The previous incarnation of this was a PCI card, and never sold well as it required people to open their PC and put it in.
It is of.c. a niche product, but REALLY delivers for that niche. If you want a Ramdisk, but don't want to use system ram, this is an excellent choice.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Oku Kee'lus
Unknown Soldiers
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Posted - 2008.12.14 11:57:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Tac Ginaz Hence, SSD for OS/run the game .. the OS having the swap file and cache on the mechanical hard disk .. and the game 'calling' the data insanely fast from the SSD.
Better yet, OS + EVE on SSD, write cache files to RAM via a RAMDRIVE.
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Minny Sky
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Posted - 2008.12.14 12:20:00 -
[18]
Of course it will. If you have to ask, maybe stick with what you have.
Yeah, I said it
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.12.14 12:46:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Lord Fitz on 14/12/2008 12:46:17
Originally by: Dantes Revenge Edited by: Dantes Revenge on 13/12/2008 22:35:15
Install Eve to a ramdisk and ask that question again.
Clarified: Ramdisk and solid state drives are different in only one way, Ramdisk is volatile memory and will lose data when you shut down, solid state drives don't. Other than that, there is no real difference.
There is a huge difference, RAM in addition to being volatile, is one hell of alot faster, it also doesn't suffer the write penalty that your SSD's do (Some people will refer to ram drives as a type of SSD, but for this explantion I'm talking about the non-volatile ones). The reason SSD's are slower to write, is because of just 'how' they are non volatile. In RAM the data is stored as an electrical charge, which means no time is taken to write, just access. SSD's use flash memory, which requires longer to erase and store new data. It also means they suffer a limited number of write-cycles, however modern write-levelling algorithms mean this shouldn't be an issue.
The RAMSAN that CCP uses, requires power to keep data. However in modern server environments, this is not an issue. It will also be backed up to regular disks with only a slight delay.
Eve itself of course doesn't care what media you have it installed to, it only cares about how fast it can read and write. The real question is of course, how much is it reading, and how much is it writing. It will possibly be slower for writing out chatlogs and gamelogs etc, but for most of what it is doing (reading) it will be much faster. The better (read more expensive) SSD's are still very good on their writes, even if not as fast.
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Kerfira If you want to go REALLY fast and not use system memory, get one of these (once they're out): Gigabyte I-RAM Box Chassis
They have been out for years and never became much of a hit because they were, tbh, quite rubbish. I'm surprised they are still for sale.
The reasons they were no good - Original model required a PCI slot (for power only ! ) - Low storage space (4gb max per unit) - Expensive - Uses DDR 1
On the other hand in terms of performance, you can get no better in a consumer device. They wipe the floor with anything you can get for a 'reasonable' price in terms of performance. For most people that is still too much money for too little storage, even enthusiasts.
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Gershomea Raphael
PURE Legion Pure.
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Posted - 2008.12.14 14:28:00 -
[20]
Just go the cheaper route - used Adaptec SCSI card and a refurb 15k SCSI drive. That's what I'm using, a 73GB Fujitsu 15k drive I got for buttons off EBay.
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Tammaria Snegallja
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Posted - 2008.12.16 18:49:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Tammaria Snegallja on 16/12/2008 18:49:41
Originally by: Lord Fitz On the other hand in terms of performance, you can get no better in a consumer device. They wipe the floor with anything you can get for a 'reasonable' price in terms of performance. For most people that is still too much money for too little storage, even enthusiasts.
Sure you can. The I-Ram only supports 1.5 Gbps, you can get 6.0 Gbps (using an controller that support striping, else 3.0 Gbps) with the ANS-9010. (And 64GB or space, if you're willing to buy the extremely expensive 8GB modules. Buying 2 ANS-9010 with 32GB each would be much cheaper, btw.)
PS: If someone sees them sold to consumers in Europe, tell me, please...
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Dr Ouspensky
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Posted - 2008.12.16 19:13:00 -
[22]
I heard that if you put your Temp or cache on a solidstate, or even try to defrag it (Lol, yeah), it can seriously decrease the lifetime of your SSD. Something about transistors only being able to change so many times.
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MinSebsis
Minmatar Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.12.16 19:29:00 -
[23]
Edited by: MinSebsis on 16/12/2008 19:30:17 www.tomshardware.com review of the SSD X25-M
Its a great write up, You can learn a great deal as they go over the Intel x25-m SSD. Great drive too.
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Karille
Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.12.16 20:18:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Dr Ouspensky I heard that if you put your Temp or cache on a solidstate, or even try to defrag it (Lol, yeah), it can seriously decrease the lifetime of your SSD. Something about transistors only being able to change so many times.
This is true, but the lifetime is actually quite long in the first place. Also they usually have some spare hidden space to compensate for dying bits.
Vote for Karille next CSM cycle. Forum players need a voice too. |
Tammaria Snegallja
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Posted - 2008.12.16 23:04:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Karille This is true, but the lifetime is actually quite long in the first place. Also they usually have some spare hidden space to compensate for dying bits.
Not only that, but they are re-distributing the written blocks around the physical cells on each write. So even if it looks like you are writing to the same block over and over, in reality the writes are distributed evenly over all cells.
BTW: A German computer magazine tried to kill a flash card by writing to it in an infinite loop for a week or two. They didn't succeed.
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Khlitouris RegusII
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Posted - 2008.12.16 23:08:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Dantes Revenge Edited by: Dantes Revenge on 13/12/2008 22:35:15
Install Eve to a ramdisk and ask that question again.
Clarified: Ramdisk and solid state drives are different in only one way, Ramdisk is volatile memory and will lose data when you shut down, solid state drives don't. Other than that, there is no real difference.
and the fact that nand ram is hugely slower than dram ram so yeah only one difference lol.
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insulubria
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Posted - 2008.12.17 01:48:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Tammaria Snegallja
Originally by: Karille This is true, but the lifetime is actually quite long in the first place. Also they usually have some spare hidden space to compensate for dying bits.
Not only that, but they are re-distributing the written blocks around the physical cells on each write. So even if it looks like you are writing to the same block over and over, in reality the writes are distributed evenly over all cells.
BTW: A German computer magazine tried to kill a flash card by writing to it in an infinite loop for a week or two. They didn't succeed.
and yet if you install an operating system to a thumb drive (same technology) you fry it inside of a few days of operation due to burning out cells in same spot..
if they really do use the same flash cell tech on ssd's that actually distribute the read-writes then thats good, really good.
I'd rather see a really big (double A battery) on one of those ram stick pci cards..
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Armoured C
Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.12.17 01:51:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Johann Callasan
Originally by: Tac Ginaz Will EVE work on these drives?
Im thinking of setting up a SSD 128gb as my OS/App drive.. win64bitXP, EVE and other games in the SSD and the rest of my data and stuff will remain on my old hard disk (set as 'd' drive).
So, CCP, will EVE run ok in an SSD internal disk or do you guys not recomend this be done?
Um..
You DO know, of course, that the EvE SERVER FARM uses SSD technology in order to keep up with all the database requests, right?
The client should not even care if the disk is solid-state or a actual disk, as long as everything's there. Especially as the server runs on 'em.
CCP old server farm used spinny harddrive ?
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Daniel Jackson
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.12.17 03:21:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Daniel Jackson on 17/12/2008 03:21:10 ill say the only feature current solid state drives that overcomes the poor white speeds, is that they last longer then actual disks in normal HDD's ___________________
Someone please tell CCP to make the Veldsphar asteroids [ |
Taua Roqa
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.12.17 03:53:00 -
[30]
ITT the difference between going 'sloooowwww' and 'REALLY FAST' is a few seconds here and there.
I think some people are just desperate to burn money on shiney things.
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