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Quinn Korgaran
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Posted - 2008.12.14 06:24:00 -
[1]
I'm about 3 weeks in, learned enough about the game that isk is not an issue. I currently fly different types of frigates running agent missions and am experimenting w/ different loadouts- I think this alone taught me alot about the different ship components and what skills i need to learn.
My concern is that while I could train up and get a cruiser w/ enough isk to replace when i get shot down,but im finding that i dont want to. I like flying frigs and i kind of want to keep training in them, at least until i can get reasonably good w/ them and/or bored w/ them. am i gimping myself and missing out? just wondering, because i noticed that outside of the new player birthing systems, i'm the only one flying a frig. Also, will be looking for a corps after the holidays and would like to get some experience in PvP, am i gonna get turned away if i stick w/ frigs? Can i be relevant in a PvP encounter? I know a vet would be, but does a newb + frig + PvP= disaster/ high-comedy?
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Kazuma Saruwatari
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.12.14 06:43:00 -
[2]
No, you're not "gimping" yourself by sticking to small ships.
In fact, some of the T2 variants of frigates are invaluable in bigger/badder fights, like the Assault Frigates (Assault Ship skill + lvl5 of chosen frigate racial) are basically heavy frigates with the meat and teeth to match, and the cheetah-like Interceptor frigates (Interceptor skill + lvl5 frigate skill) which are invaluable in getting to a target like a bloody bullet to warp-scramble em and hold them there for the bigger boys to blow it apart.
In fact, the original T1 ships can do the tackle role (warp scramble + stasis web) very well, even if in a disposable ship. The role these ships can do is invaluable to any force. It makes sure the other guy cant run away from the hammer and anvil beating he/she is about to recieve.
Assault Frigates lately have seen a resurgence in usage in both PvE and PvP, as they can work very well with afterburners and under-10km fighting with bigger targets. They have enough survivability to get under "the sweet spot" of bigger ships so that they're so close, their angular velocity becomes too high for the bigger guns to track them.
Interceptors are basically what they say on the tin: they intercept potential targets and hold them down long enough for someone else to pound them to smithereens.
Also, if you are into more "special ops" kinds of things in EVE, you have more options on the frigate level. For example, the Electronics Attack Frigates are great, small, force multipliers (Kitsune for Caldari shipping, btw, is a ECM boat, which is very valued), the Covert Ops frigates are perfect scouts, and the Stealth Bomber frigates, in small groups, can spell death to bigger ships, especially when they perform a pants-wetting mass-uncloak on a target out of nowhere.
So no, you're not gimping yourself if you stick to the small ships. -
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Gojyu
Ever Flow Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.12.14 06:46:00 -
[3]
Quote: So no, you're not gimping yourself if you stick to the small ships.
Yes and no. Frigates are fantastic ships, and have at least some role in probably 90% of eve pvp. However, those shiny interceptors and assault ships take isk to buy. By sticking to frigates, you'll need to find a supplemental source of income that isn't missions in order to purchase said ships, and that's not particularly easy to do without branching out into industry (which requires skills, which you could better spend on more pvp/mission relevant skills anyway)
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Cipher7
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Posted - 2008.12.14 07:30:00 -
[4]
Easier to make money in big ships.
If money is not an issue, your fighting style is your fighting style. ---
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.12.14 09:24:00 -
[5]
cons:
- can't run higher lvl missions fast - can't rat is 0.0 fast - limits your possible targets
pros:
- works great for high sec piracy (decent income while fun) - cheap ships to replace - they're fun - some specialisations are quite useful in big fleets (Covops, inties)
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Calduin
Caldari Association of Commonwealth Enterprises B.L.A.C.K.
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Posted - 2008.12.14 10:56:00 -
[6]
newb + frig + PvP=awesome fun time. some of my funnest fights in 0.0 are in frig gangs. But with small ships it means more teamwork to take on bigger ships, dont expect to go 1v1 vrs a BS or BC, but in groups they absolutely pwn. especially vrs t2 cruisers, every falcon kill from a frig swarm is worth like 20 frig deaths. Don't under estimate the damage frigs can dish out, from 130dps incursus to 220dps ishkur. three or four can take down a bs pretty quickly. using frigs you'll most likely want to spec in the gallente ones or matar ones, gallente for the synenergy their frigs get with blasters(highest dps small weapons), and matar ships for their extreme flexibility.
frigs may be unappreciated in some fleets but they're invaluable, especially in the falcon age. without 4km/s frigs to burn to falcons a fight can get really bad even if you outnumber the opponent. after the nano nerf there's almost nothing else that can approach frigate speeds. and when the enemy have support that can sit 70km like logistics, or 200km like falcons, every fleet really needs a dedicated antisupport frigate wing.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.12.14 11:58:00 -
[7]
Tackling frigs are invaluable in PVP, much less skill intensive for new players, and dirt cheap to replace.
Plus frigates lead to interceptors and covert ops. -----------
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Vele Nori
Amarr Dakinii
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Posted - 2008.12.14 12:57:00 -
[8]
As noted by other posted the only way you'll be gimping yourself is in how much ISK you can earn from missions as well as in variety of targets. To progress up the missions you will need at least a battlecruiser eventually. There are just some ships you should avoid flying T1 or T2 frigates when pvping. And others whose tank you will not be able to break.
However, no one said that the only way to make ISK in this game is by killing NPCs. There are other ways of generating income that do not relate to how big a ship you can fly.
In pvp when trying to take down larger targets you can fly as part of a gang. As a scout/tackler you will find and catch targets for them and let other members of your gang who like flying heavy ships do the actual killing.
If you like frigates I would also recommend that you attend Agony Unleashed PVP-basic class. During this class you will get into a 50-frigate/light ship blob and go through 0.0 killing anything your scouts find. So if you wanna see your frig kill some hacs and command ships this will probably be a very fun experience for you.
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2008.12.14 13:36:00 -
[9]
Yes. You are gimping yourself financially IF you stay with Frigates and don't move on to other ships - in the long run.
Now - if you have some alternate source of funds such that you really don't need to make any money with this character - then you can mess around with Frigates all you want. But if you do need to make money - Frigates isn't necessarily where it's at.
There are two common ways of making money that anyone can do - industrial activity (such as mining) and mission running. Those aren't the only ways to make money but they are the most common if only because they are easy to do. If you're not going to go down the industrial path - then - unless you take up one of the less common professions - and there are a number - then missions is what you need to be doing.
Running missions pretty much requires certain size ships at certain levels to effectively make money - the reason you are running missions in the first place.
Level I - Frigates and Destroyers. Level II - Destroyers and Cruisers. Level III - Battle Cruisers. Level IV - Battleships.
Mostly, you don't really need to move up to a larger ship than your mission level requires. First off you're risking a bigger (i.e. more expensive) ship than need be to do the job. Secondly, you really should have your support skills up before moving on to larger ships. If you don't have your support skills up then all you'll be doing is flying ships you can't properly man - and hence getting them blown up more often.
Actually, right now - you're gimping yourself by not moving on to Destroyers for running your Level I missions. It's just faster. The faster you can get through the mission the sooner you can run another one. Fit out one Destroyer as your mission ship then another as a Salvager. If you aren't salvaging your wrecks you're passing up a potentially large source of income.
Now - none of the above means you can't still fly frigates. It just means that when you are flying a frigate - you aren't making as much ISK as you could flying something else. There are ways to make money doing PVP but there are ways to lose a lot of ships doing PVP too ... So - PVP isn't really about making money - it's more about having fun.
One thing you can do - is to gradually move up the mission level ladder getting bigger ships along the way and fitting them out to run your missions with lots of nice stuff. Then - NEVER - willingly take that ship into combat with another player. At the same time - you can fly cheaper, smaller ships for PVP so that it doesn't matter as much if they get blown up. Once you get to the point where flying a specific size ship isn't going to be a big deal if you lose it - then you can start fitting one of those type ships for PVP - which can be a completely different fit than what you'd use for missions. Putting a lot of really expensive stuff on a PVP ship won't necessarily help it survive any longer if someone declares it primary - which if it is really powerful - it's more likely they will do.
Mission ships are a long term tool that you can develop into money making machines. If you're careful you may never lose a ship to a mission.
PVP ships are expendables. If you use it - you will lose it.
Once you get more experienced at the game - you might want to consider one or more of those alternate careers and you may well be able to prosper in them using Frigates. But until you are more experienced it's going to be a lot easier to make money using larger ships.
For now, less than a month into the game - for missions - get in a destroyer and concentrate on building your support skills. If you want to PVP - use a Frigate for that as Frigates are cheaper than destroyers to replace.
Once you get to the point where you are running Level II missions - then - move on up to a Cruiser. Hopefully, by that time, you'll have your support skills up to a level that will keep you from losing it to a mission.
Faction Schools Orbiting vs. Kiting |
Nareg Maxence
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.12.14 14:08:00 -
[10]
Lots of valid points have been posted already.
If you want to get into learning about using frigs in PVP then I can warmly recommend that you check out the corporation Agony Unleashed. They are experts in frigate PVP and hold regular classes where for a few million ISK you can hop in your cheap T1 frig and learn all the basics of PVP and take a 'safari'-trip to 0.0 sec and apply the theory with other students, lead by experienced Agony fleet commanders.
Go to the in game channel AU_PVP_UNIVERSITY to find out more or visit their web site.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.12.14 15:04:00 -
[11]
My first three months in the game I spent in a Rifter, it was a great time.
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Arkadrell
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Posted - 2008.12.14 17:11:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Estel Arador My first three months in the game I spent in a Rifter, it was a great time.
!!! this!
the rifter is just crazy fun! :D my favorite frigate by far (work up passive shield tanking skills works great on Frigates-cruisers-battlecruisers(some not all)).
Highly recammend people try this and the Kassie (caldari missile one).
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.12.14 17:24:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 14/12/2008 17:26:33 AFs aren't bad for moneymaking. AFs are perfect for running lowsec profession sites or cosmic anomalies, both of which can give you quite a bit of ISK. In theory a BS cosmic anomalies (but not profession sites, really) faster...but neither of them take a lot of time anyway, and you don't want to be flying a solo BS around lowsec.
Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
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Sigul Siento
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Posted - 2008.12.14 22:45:00 -
[14]
A ninja salvager (probing out other peoples missions to salvage the wrecks) doesn't need anything above frigates. I'm just saying :)
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.12.15 00:37:00 -
[15]
That's actually a very good point. Ninjasalvaging is one of the more profitable professions out there, as well, if you're good at it.
Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
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Kessiaan
Minmatar Army of One
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Posted - 2008.12.15 03:37:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Kessiaan on 15/12/2008 03:39:02 As someone who primarily flies frigs, I can say with 100% certainty you can make decent ISK (enough to pay for AFs, at least) by ratting in 0.1 systems (250K BC spawns are common and easy to take down) and doing the odd exploration plex.
It's not *great* money but it's enough. AFs can also do lv. 3s without too many issues and once you can fly an AF decently you're pretty close to a HAC which can do lv. 4s. It's not the fastest mission progression but it does keep your SPs focused, which means when you go pvp you won't have millions of useless SPs in BS-specific support skills you can't use (as pvp BS's aren't very solo-friendly and pvp BS's are much, much more SP intensive than mission BS's) ... besides, I've said all I'm going to say. You're reading my sig now! Bwa!
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Gojyu
Ever Flow Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.12.15 05:17:00 -
[17]
Quote: BS-specific support skills you can't use
Out of curiosity, what do you mean by bs specific support? Off the top of my head, you've got racial large turret, racial bs skill and possibly large/sentry drones if you're gallente. Near as I can figure, taking a character with good learning and no other skills, it'd take just shy of 2 weeks to take these three skills to level 4, perfectly capable of handling level 4's and vastly multiplying the cash you're going to get from dropping 250k rats with a frigate. Near as I can figure it, every single other combat related skill in the game will help you out with your frigate goal, only difference is you've got maybe 500k skillpoints in non-frigate related skills
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Kessiaan
Minmatar Army of One
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Posted - 2008.12.15 08:19:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Gojyu
Quote: BS-specific support skills you can't use
Out of curiosity, what do you mean by bs specific support?
BS V Large Racial Turret V 2x Large Racial Turret Specs IV
That's about 3 months right there, for truly BS-specific stuff.
Other long skills you'll need you'll pick up along the way, but aren't really as needed for cruiser & frig hulls.
Drone Interfacing V Advanced Weapon Upgrades V All Gunnery support skills V Heavy Drone Operation V Sentry Drone Operation V
.. I could go on but you get the idea. A good BS is just really, really SP intensive, much moreso than a smaller hull, even the T2 varients. ... besides, I've said all I'm going to say. You're reading my sig now! Bwa!
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Allahs Warrior
Gallente Justified Hedonism And Dualism
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Posted - 2008.12.15 08:53:00 -
[19]
my friend and I have (in less than 21 days of trial accountage(not this account)) ransomed for millions upon millions, solo'd year old pilots in battlecruisers, our 2 frigs took on 2 cruisers and won (with no losses), solo'd destroyers and cruisers and assault t2 frigs, all for victories. Yes we lost a bunch of frigs on the way (less than we've killed) but we've had a lot of fun at the expense of only about 3mil. Take advantage of the logarithmic (which means 10 days of training has more advantage over 0 days of training than 1000 days of training has over 950 days of training, and similar examples) advancement and use your frig till you can easily afford to lose a cruiser.
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Gojyu
Ever Flow Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.12.15 09:33:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Kessiaan
Originally by: Gojyu
Quote: BS-specific support skills you can't use
Out of curiosity, what do you mean by bs specific support?
BS V Large Racial Turret V 2x Large Racial Turret Specs IV
That's about 3 months right there, for truly BS-specific stuff.
Other long skills you'll need you'll pick up along the way, but aren't really as needed for cruiser & frig hulls.
Drone Interfacing V Advanced Weapon Upgrades V All Gunnery support skills V Heavy Drone Operation V Sentry Drone Operation V
.. I could go on but you get the idea. A good BS is just really, really SP intensive, much moreso than a smaller hull, even the T2 varients.
I see where you're coming from, but I think we've got two different plans in mind. I wasn't suggesting launching a one man invasion of NOL, I was advising him to consider skilling up in battleships to the point where running level 4's is a good source of income. The skills you listed there are beyond unnecessary. Hell, I don't even have half the skills on that list and I'm yet to meet a mission I can't afk. You can run level 4's with 2mil skillpoints, you can't run them fast, but they're still a viable source of income. What I was suggesting is that with bs 4, turret 4 and decent drone skills depending on race, he'd be more than capable of running level 4's, as the skills that make him better at running missions after that are the same skills he'd be wanting to take to level 5 as a frigate pilot anyway
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.12.15 18:08:00 -
[21]
Why do people think that level 4 missions in hisec are the only form of income for a combat pilot?
He was referring to the ability to fly a BS competently. You aren't going to be flying a BS competently with 2 million SP.
Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
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Dal Thrax
Multiverse Corporation
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Posted - 2008.12.15 20:00:00 -
[22]
If you're going to stick with frigates, and are interested in 0.0, I would recommend training Interdictors (the classic not the heavy model). Seems you always need more dictors then you have in a fight.
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