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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:20:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Gnulpie To compile the meagre facts:
[list]The exploit was possible since Feb 2007, before the code wouldn't allow that exploit.
No, the exploit might of been possible before this data, but at this time they only are sure of its exsistance to the Feb 2007 date.
Quote: Diagoras explained that February 2007 was the earliest date they had that they are able to check the code for the exploit that hadnĘt been changed in a way that would affect this, part of the investigation will be to confirm how long it has been possible to use this exploit.
-- Chribba's LoveQuest 17:00hrs Dec. 20th (Prizes!!)
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Baske
Space-Bar
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:20:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Karille
Originally by: Baske
Full disclosure???
Proof or stfu :p
Proof there wasn't?
I didn't say that full disclosure has or has not taken place.....
I only question it, so should you, instead of being blue-eyed, trusting CCP's words as being the truth.
This is a classical case of "Who examines the doctor?"
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Tarminic
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:23:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Baske
Originally by: Karille
Originally by: Baske
Full disclosure???
Proof or stfu :p
Proof there wasn't?
I didn't say that full disclosure has or has not taken place.....
I only question it, so should you, instead of being blue-eyed, trusting CCP's words as being the truth.
This is a classical case of "Who examines the doctor?"
If you believe that CCP is lying to us now, why would you trust any proof that CCP would offer in the future? ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3) |
Farmer Kamikaze
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:24:00 -
[34]
I am working from memory here, so don't take any of this a hard fact, but I was manufacturing ferrogel for my corp in 2006 and making a killing. As a small corp we made 400mil/week profit; the markup on the reaction components was just stupidly good. We bought an obelisk bpo from the profits, which would put it after the freighter expansion. My point is that in early 2006 (real stretch, I would feel more comfortable with last quarter 2006) there was no obvious or widespread market flooding of ferrogel. Shortly after buying the obelisk bpo the bottom of the market fell out of ferrogel and it became less of an attractive profit margin, we moved on to other reactions.
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Baske
Space-Bar
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:26:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Farmer Kamikaze
Originally by: Baske
Full disclosure???
Proof or stfu :p
You choose to quote two words. The sentence reads "full disclosure of information found to date."
The economist is quite forthcoming in his answers and clearly states where his data is not adequate/mined sufficienly. The proof is in the transcripts so I am disinclined to stfu. Unless the CSM has edited the transcripts, kidnapped the guilty GMs and shot the developers to hide their evil secret?
/me pats thinfoil hat in place
full disclosure of information found to date?
proof or stfu !!
happy now?
It's still a classic of "who examines the doctor?". If you can't see any problems in that, you have to tweak your logic.
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Innocent II
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:28:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Innocent II on 15/12/2008 22:34:48
Originally by: CCP Fallout Meissa asked how they planned to go about that? There would be less of the high-end moon product, will CCP act as purveyors of those goods? EyjoG replied that if there was an absolute shortage, then CCP would use NPC market orders, but he would like to emphasize that they are not expecting that they will need to do that.
WEAK.
Except this.
NPC Dysprosium. CCP Bailout, he is new GM.
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Haakelen
Gallente Cassandra's Light Caeruleum Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:29:00 -
[37]
If I read correctly, you're fairly certain on the timing of the exploit's inclusion into TQ, but curious as to the time when it became widespread, yes? Assuming that's correct, I have to echo concerns of previous posters, in wondering about the wisdom of relying on market data to find trend data for exploits. This is not an ISK-generating exploit, this amounts to a duping exploit. If it had only been used to create extra materials for T2 production, there'd be a much smaller paper trail about it. You'd find discrepancies with regards to other materials, possibly, in that situation. Could future exploits not be hidden by avoiding the market? Or are you relying on greed to eventually expose these?
I assume you know exactly how many r64 moons there are, and in what distribution. If this accounted for 35% of the ferrogel market, were there enough underutilized resources to not make this obvious?
You say that alchemy was not involved in the genesis of this exploit, but is there a possibility that the shortages and price flux that caused you to implement it were signs of this?
Will further improvements in server technology allow for further logging and quicker auditing? I'm sure the code involved in running things like POSes and such is very complex, and the amount of data required to accurately indicate problems is large, creating a strain on things.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:29:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Fractal Eye .... No, that's not what I'm upset about. Given that this exploit was discovered on December 7th, and it's the 15th now, I'd expect more info than 'we're datamining it atm'. I personally don't work in computers or programming in anyway, so I don't personally know what work would involve. (Let the flames come.) All I know is, after waiting a week, the amount of information from CCP is lacking.
Initiating new data mining initiatives, especially on older data structures that may even have changed over time, and with the size and complexity of the EVE economic system, is usually a task that is measured in man-months and more likely man-years.
What CCP appears to be doing is not even limited to normal data mining, which is generally about deriving trends from a dataset, but is also about tracing individuals and their activities.
Anyone who has ever been involved in the data-processing of banking or commercial activities know what a huge undertaking this is. On a day-to-day average, an EVE player probably generates 10-100 times the amount of transaction data an average person generates in real life. This means that the data generated by EVE is probably comparable to the accumulated data generated for a small-medium RL country!
Getting sensible results from data mining data of that magnitude is not something you do instantly!
Of.c. this'll not satisfy the pitchfork crowd, but TBH I don't think anything would....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:29:00 -
[39]
A good start, CCP. Certainly more plausible and believable than the rumours and tripe that some of the more hysterical forum members have been posting. Of course you'll never convince those people of anything. People do so love to have their own little fantasies - ask any conspiracy fanatic.
Still - I hope we get at least one more follow up article in the next month or so. Once you have a more definitive understanding of the scale of this exploit and ramifications on the economy. It'd also be nice to know what kind of procedures you're putting in place to try and catch things like this in the future. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years)
[Brackley, UK]
My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned. |
Goberth Ludwig
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:30:00 -
[40]
Wow CCP you are shamelessly incompetent.
- Gob
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Moraguth
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:30:00 -
[41]
I'm agreeing with whoever noted that CCP should get into politics, or at least become advisors to politicians.
Thanks for the information provided, and thank you to the CSM for asking the hard questions, but please don't let all of your focus be on this one issue. You were elected before this was even an issue, please remember to get on the other topics as well.
Finally, I remember back in the day seeing CCP Wrangler post all the time. He didn't have a single thing to say the whole time? I value the opinions of the people who did speak, but he's an old timer that alot of us old players recognize and trust. Let's hear what he has to say too.
good game
Hoc filum tradit - This thread delivers.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:30:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Treelox
Originally by: Gnulpie To compile the meagre facts:
[list]The exploit was possible since Feb 2007, before the code wouldn't allow that exploit.
No, the exploit might of been possible before this data, but at this time they only are sure of its exsistance to the Feb 2007 date.
Quote: Diagoras explained that February 2007 was the earliest date they had that they are able to check the code for the exploit that hadn’t been changed in a way that would affect this, part of the investigation will be to confirm how long it has been possible to use this exploit.
Thank you for the correction. The last quoted sentence is quite horrible to understand, especially for non-native speakers. Why not talking in easy language?
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:30:00 -
[43]
Originally by: CCP Fallout Part 2: Due to the size of the EVE economy, EyjoG is expecting the market to recover quite quickly, the introduction of Alchemy will also help in that regard. However the most critical materials they are monitoring closely and will take further action if needed so that there will be no absolute shortage of the material in question.
Aside from the other points, I am somewhat curious about this statement... why exactly is a shortage of T2 materials considered a bad thing and something that may require CCPs intervention? It may be bad for the wallet of those individual players (myself included) who have got used to the idea of abundant and cheap T2 on every market, or who have fallen into the 'only newbies and cheapskates fit anything other than full T2' mindset, but why would it be bad for the game as a whole for us to see a shortage or even total (short term) absence of certain T2 modules or ships? -----------
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Ivar Strahm
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:30:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Tarminic If you believe that CCP is lying to us now, why would you trust any proof that CCP would offer in the future?
You cannot argue with conspiracy theorists. Their position is based entirely on assuming the counter-party is lying. This allows them free reign to discount every offered statement or fact as either misrepresented or completely fabricated, while at the same time allowing them to assert that for every such "fact" there are any number of other "facts" we are not being told about.
In short, arguing with someone who "wants to believe" is pointless.
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Farmer Kamikaze
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:31:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Baske
full disclosure of information found to date?
proof or stfu !!
happy now?
It's still a classic of "who examines the doctor?". If you can't see any problems in that, you have to tweak your logic.
Your point is a valid one that people in authority have struggled with for centuries. What is your quick fix solution? CSM not good enough? Are you going to offer your time free of charge and learn to code so you can watch the watchers? Who watches you? No matter what CCP says you seem to have made up your mind already. I have some hangar space ready for your stuff.
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Baske
Space-Bar
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:31:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Baske
Originally by: Karille
Originally by: Baske
Full disclosure???
Proof or stfu :p
Proof there wasn't?
I didn't say that full disclosure has or has not taken place.....
I only question it, so should you, instead of being blue-eyed, trusting CCP's words as being the truth.
This is a classical case of "Who examines the doctor?"
If you believe that CCP is lying to us now, why would you trust any proof that CCP would offer in the future?
I don't think they are lying, I don't think they are telling the truth. I really don't know what to think anymore tbh. I only know they have many reasons to lie if this exploit possibly has ANYTHING, whatsoever to do with themself. CCP's a company, a company is about making money. Profit above ethics so to speak. If you believe anything else, you are wrong, plain and simple.
(If CCP is a corporation, they could actually be sued for being ethical over profitable if telling a truth hurting profit, but that's another story).
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Caetan
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:31:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Kaijusan Total and absolute whitewash.
/sarcasm on It has to be a whitewash ! None of the "facts" so elaborately datamined from the rumourmill by the lynchmob are found to be true...
No CCP/BoB conspiracy after all ? Obvious coverup !!
"Everybody knows" this has gone on for 4 years, and now "they" are trying to hide it !!! Yeah, but what can u expect from teh ebil CCP... /sarcasm off
Sheesh, I had a good giggle reading the wild outraged speculation in the original 75-page threadnought about this issue, looks like the comments here will be equally entertaining :)
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Issler Dainze
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:31:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Thynar "Diagoras confirmed the exploit as being possible (code wise) from at least February 2007, however they are still investigating further to see exactly when it became possible."
This seems to imply that the exploit could maybe have been possible before Feb 2007.
Beat me to that, it is not yet known when the defect was introduced, I suspect that it might very well date back to the introduction of the feature since from a software engineering perspective the likelyhood of introducing a defect like this by changes in unrelated portions of the code are small. CCP has promised to continue to look into this to determine when the defect was introduced. Please be aware that depending on how their engineering processes have evolved this could be very involved and time consuming, so again, a call for some patience.
And it should be stated that the existence of the defect and the discovery and use of the defect are two different things. The date of discovery and abuse is the most important thing to determine.
CCP has found strong evidence of specific abuses beginning this year, it would seem strange that someone found out about this earlier, did it, then stopped and it only restarted again this year. So to my expectations are that once CCP retrieves and analyzes the older data that this abuse will turn out to be a recent discovery and not something widely used for 4 years. CCP could have easily taken this position and not dug deeper, I think their willingness to take on a lot more work to be sure speaks well for their commitment to let us know the full details as soon as they can.
Issler
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Heroldyn
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:34:00 -
[49]
Hi,
i was told that if ccp removed information from the minutes, it would be marked where they were removed. Since i dont see any remark like that, does that mean that no informaiton were removed from it, or was the removal not marked ?
Thanks.
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Baske
Space-Bar
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:35:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Ivar Strahm
Originally by: Tarminic If you believe that CCP is lying to us now, why would you trust any proof that CCP would offer in the future?
You cannot argue with conspiracy theorists. Their position is based entirely on assuming the counter-party is lying. This allows them free reign to discount every offered statement or fact as either misrepresented or completely fabricated, while at the same time allowing them to assert that for every such "fact" there are any number of other "facts" we are not being told about.
In short, arguing with someone who "wants to believe" is pointless.
Your logic is apparently based on CCP is telling the truth. My logic is based on that I have no idea whether they are telling the truth or not....
You are the one who made a decission to trust in something which haven't been proved to you. I am a doubter.
Spot the difference?
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Ivar Strahm
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:37:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Baske Your logic is apparently based on CCP is telling the truth. My logic is based on that I have no idea whether they are telling the truth or not....
You are the one who made a decission to trust in something which haven't been proved to you. I am a doubter.
Spot the difference?
Spot where I said I believed them? I'm only choosing to point out that people who are a few gunmen short of a grassy knoll, like yourself, are as far removed from the application of reason as you can get.
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Tarminic
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:39:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Baske
Originally by: Ivar Strahm
Originally by: Tarminic If you believe that CCP is lying to us now, why would you trust any proof that CCP would offer in the future?
You cannot argue with conspiracy theorists. Their position is based entirely on assuming the counter-party is lying. This allows them free reign to discount every offered statement or fact as either misrepresented or completely fabricated, while at the same time allowing them to assert that for every such "fact" there are any number of other "facts" we are not being told about.
In short, arguing with someone who "wants to believe" is pointless.
Your logic is apparently based on CCP is telling the truth. My logic is based on that I have no idea whether they are telling the truth or not....
You are the one who made a decission to trust in something which haven't been proved to you. I am a doubter.
Spot the difference?
By purchasing and then using an EVE account, aren't you putting your trust into CCP? It seems strange to me to trust them with your bank account information and $15 a month, but not believe they're telling the truth in this case. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3) |
Issler Dainze
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:39:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Heroldyn Hi,
i was told that if ccp removed information from the minutes, it would be marked where they were removed. Since i dont see any remark like that, does that mean that no informaiton were removed from it, or was the removal not marked ?
Thanks.
What they have done is paraphrase places that they felt needed scrubbing. When you see somthing like Issler said something about a battleship being removed you are looking at places CCP removed information they felt needed to stay private.
Issler
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Vuk Lau
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:40:00 -
[54]
Everyone who knows me, are aware I am not the biggest fan of CCP policies when it comes to petitions, handling drama bombs, GM performance and generaly how they handle relationship with community. But I would be hypocrit if I wouldnt point that I am pleasently surprised with CCP response when it comes to this "POS exploit" issue. Their stance towards CSM regarding this matter was sincere, opened and what most amazes me, promptly.
I have history with CCP in similar issues for a long time before I was elected as delegate and this is drastic improvement in their aproach to the community.
PERSONAL NOTE TO CCP WRANGLER (Others pls dont read this): Wrangler I want my rattlesnakes delivered in WH-JCA Rod Of Happiness station KTNXBYE
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:40:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Ghoest on 15/12/2008 22:41:10
If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:40:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Caetan Sheesh, I had a good giggle reading the wild outraged speculation in the original 75-page threadnought about this issue, looks like the comments here will be equally entertaining :)
Then where are the exact numbers to refute all these speculations?
How many r64 moons exist? How much dys, pro, ferrogel etc. was produced using the exploit? How far reach their so far investigated data back? How many people are involved into the investigation? What assets and how much isk was destroyed? What are CCPs methods of investigation?
etc. etc.
Ah well, hopefully we will get more data and exact numbers with the next report ...
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Metal Dude
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:40:00 -
[57]
So after CCP digs thru their data, we can expect the same response as always. 'We see nothing in our logs'. What a joke.
The truth will set you free
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Baske
Space-Bar
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:41:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Ivar Strahm
Originally by: Baske Your logic is apparently based on CCP is telling the truth. My logic is based on that I have no idea whether they are telling the truth or not....
You are the one who made a decission to trust in something which haven't been proved to you. I am a doubter.
Spot the difference?
Spot where I said I believed them? I'm only choosing to point out that people who are a few gunmen short of a grassy knoll, like yourself, are as far removed from the application of reason as you can get.
You are implying that it is wrong not to trust them.
Why is that, has history proved that CCP devs are worth trusting, or not?
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Heroldyn
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:42:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Issler Dainze
Originally by: Heroldyn Hi,
i was told that if ccp removed information from the minutes, it would be marked where they were removed. Since i dont see any remark like that, does that mean that no informaiton were removed from it, or was the removal not marked ?
Thanks.
What they have done is paraphrase places that they felt needed scrubbing. When you see somthing like Issler said something about a battleship being removed you are looking at places CCP removed information they felt needed to stay private.
Issler
Are we going to get a version of the minutes that have thoose sections where ccp paraphrased or removed information highlighted ? i was under the impression that this would be the case.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2008.12.15 22:43:00 -
[60]
Why dont they make a public announcment as to which corps had their POS removed? That is not at adds with the policy.
If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.
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