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CarbonFury
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.12.16 00:17:00 -
[1]
Edited by: CarbonFury on 16/12/2008 00:17:30 Numerous times in the past week ships caught in 0.0 and low-sec, finding themselves doomed with no chance of escape or survival have self destructed. A mothership, various carriers, and even an onyx that we could've killed but were so busy killing his fighter support that we didn't notice the brief self destruct notification. When a ship self destructs it leaves no loot and it no one receives a killmail so it totally screws over the aggressors that worked so hard to get a kill. As well, most of the time the the losers that self destruct then go on to blab about how awesome they are and some 'haha, nananananana' follows in local chat.
So I have a few questions for CCP:
1. Why does self destruct even exist? 2. If it needs to exist for some reason, then why aren't mechanics in place that make it so these losers can't exploit the "feature" to screw over the successful attackers? i.e. all mods and hardeners turn off, your resists drop to zero, you still leave a wreck with loot and produce a killmail (last dmg dealer gets the mail), can't self destruct when scrambled, etc.
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sanGreAzuL
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Posted - 2008.12.16 00:39:00 -
[2]
Originally by: CarbonFury Edited by: CarbonFury on 16/12/2008 00:17:30 Numerous times in the past week ships caught in 0.0 and low-sec, finding themselves doomed with no chance of escape or survival have self destructed. A mothership, various carriers, and even an onyx that we could've killed but were so busy killing his fighter support that we didn't notice the brief self destruct notification. When a ship self destructs it leaves no loot and it no one receives a killmail so it totally screws over the aggressors that worked so hard to get a kill. As well, most of the time the the losers that self destruct then go on to blab about how awesome they are and some 'haha, nananananana' follows in local chat.
So I have a few questions for CCP:
1. Why does self destruct even exist? 2. If it needs to exist for some reason, then why aren't mechanics in place that make it so these losers can't exploit the "feature" to screw over the successful attackers? i.e. all mods and hardeners turn off, your resists drop to zero, you still leave a wreck with loot and produce a killmail (last dmg dealer gets the mail), can't self destruct when scrambled, etc.
I would imagine that the purpose of Self-Destruct is to do, exactly what happened to you. I haven't personally done it, but if I had the time, I probably would.
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CarbonFury
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.12.16 01:26:00 -
[3]
It's the Eve equivalent of throwing the Checkers board when you lose, only in this case the game maker practically encourages it.
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Lars Erlkonig
Caldari Discrete Solutions Ltd.
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Posted - 2008.12.16 01:38:00 -
[4]
I think self destruct exists for the reasons you stated and more. It's a way to get back at the people that have trapped you. EVE's a cruel harsh reality, get over the lack of a KM and loot the wreck.
It also prevents people from holding a ship scrammed indefinitely and not getting around to killing the hauler, new player, etc. as a way of griefing and making the game unplayable for someone.
Originally by: TWD We suck and Goonswarm are PvP gods.
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CarbonFury
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.12.16 02:07:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Lars Erlkonig I think self destruct exists for the reasons you stated and more. It's a way to get back at the people that have trapped you. EVE's a cruel harsh reality, get over the lack of a KM and loot the wreck.
It also prevents people from holding a ship scrammed indefinitely and not getting around to killing the hauler, new player, etc. as a way of griefing and making the game unplayable for someone.
There's no wreck with loot, only drones drop.
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Mika Meroko
Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc
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Posted - 2008.12.16 02:18:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Mika Meroko on 16/12/2008 02:19:29 pretty much...
to give the loser SOME form of satisfaction/control..
lets face it... if the loser cant do anything as he is getting **ped ... the loser will feel without control.... which makes the loser more likely to not subscribe anymore...
is psychology XD
and yeah... bring more DPS XD
edit:
and yeah, you just have to take in the satisfaction of popping (and making someone lose) a 1 billion + isk ship...
Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
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Halock
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Posted - 2008.12.16 03:41:00 -
[7]
Quote: leaves no loot and it no one receives a killmail so it totally screws over the aggressors that worked so hard to get a kill.
There's the answer to question no.1, which, also takes care of question no.2
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Yolo
Caldari Dark Knights of Deneb
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Posted - 2008.12.16 03:56:00 -
[8]
Self-Destruct owns.
its a big 'in your face' to any hostile attacker that does not have the DPS to take you down fast enough. the time is 120 seconds, and that is a very long time in Eve-Online.
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Inara Subaka
Caldari the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2008.12.16 04:36:00 -
[9]
If it took you more than the 2 minutes to kill the onyx after he hit the SD button... there were other issues at hand tbh.
And let's look at this from a logistical perspective, let's say you're at war with someone and you're flying a capital/plex fit Mom. Assuming half those modules drop that's a good payday for whoever kills you... Do you really want to give your opponent more resources to gather equipment to fight you with?
If I was in naval warfare, jumping into a lifeboat to gtfo irl, you better damn well believe I'm going to set charges all over the place to sink the ship I'm abandoning. Even if it's just enough to make the useful stuff useless (blow up the motor, weapons, information logs, nav/comm systems, etc...).
The purpose is to deny your enemy the satisfaction of the KM, and prevent them from acquiring more resources at your expense. Basic. Warfare. Tactics.
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Cactus Mack
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Posted - 2008.12.16 04:53:00 -
[10]
Originally by: CarbonFury When a ship self destructs it leaves no loot and it no one receives a killmail so it totally screws over the aggressors that worked so hard to get a kill.
So I have a few questions for CCP:
1. Why does self destruct even exist?
See what you wrote above.
Quote:
2. If it needs to exist for some reason, then why aren't mechanics in place that make it so these losers can't exploit the "feature" to screw over the successful attackers?
The real losers are the ones who couldn't finish off their target in under 2 minutes.
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Rivqua
Caldari Omega Wing R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.12.16 06:19:00 -
[11]
Why should the defender pat the wallets of his agressors? Fine, you kill me, you win, but why should I feed you with my loot? It actually IS my stuff, I bought it, I should totally be able to destroy it if I want to.
I don't agree you don't get a killmail, cuz that's a proof of job well done, and in my line of work, that's important, but otherwise, why would the defender give you loot, it's his stuffz. It's your job to keel him before he gets to the self destruct button so to speak.
/Riv
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Terra Mikael
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2008.12.16 09:26:00 -
[12]
I thought it was for getting insurance money back... ________________________________
Originally by: Korovyov You WIN! And by win, I mean suck horse manure.
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2008.12.16 11:14:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Rivqua Why should the defender pat the wallets of his agressors? Fine, you kill me, you win, but why should I feed you with my loot? It actually IS my stuff, I bought it, I should totally be able to destroy it if I want to.
I don't agree you don't get a killmail, cuz that's a proof of job well done, and in my line of work, that's important, but otherwise, why would the defender give you loot, it's his stuffz. It's your job to keel him before he gets to the self destruct button so to speak.
/Riv
I'm in agreement of this guy. Killmails should be awarded, only with the self-popper getting the final blow :D But no lewt.
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
Mirei Jun
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Posted - 2008.12.16 13:12:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Rivqua Why should the defender pat the wallets of his agressors? Fine, you kill me, you win, but why should I feed you with my loot? It actually IS my stuff, I bought it, I should totally be able to destroy it if I want to.
/Riv
What is "yours" is relative. Once we blow your ship up the loot is "ours", and the person that ganks me makes it "theirs". However it is generally agreed upon that self-destruct is needed to stop perma griefing.
This conversation has been covered before. I will restate some of the general purposed fixes again:
- Loot should remian just as though the target was destroyed by an external force. - No insurance payment for self-destruct. (This would solve some other issues, too) - All modules go offline at some point in the destruct sequence. (I don't agree with this but it has been brought up.)
I agree with the top two, but I doubt such trivial things will ever be a priority for CCP.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.12.16 13:56:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Mirei Jun
Originally by: Rivqua Why should the defender pat the wallets of his agressors? Fine, you kill me, you win, but why should I feed you with my loot? It actually IS my stuff, I bought it, I should totally be able to destroy it if I want to.
/Riv
What is "yours" is relative. Once we blow your ship up the loot is "ours", and the person that ganks me makes it "theirs". However it is generally agreed upon that self-destruct is needed to stop perma griefing.
This conversation has been covered before. I will restate some of the general purposed fixes again:
- Loot should remian just as though the target was destroyed by an external force. - No insurance payment for self-destruct. (This would solve some other issues, too) - All modules go offline at some point in the destruct sequence. (I don't agree with this but it has been brought up.)
I agree with the top two, but I doubt such trivial things will ever be a priority for CCP.
cool who insures t2 ship ?:D
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Vitelius
Decorum Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.12.16 14:57:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Mirei Jun
What is "yours" is relative. Once we blow your ship up the loot is "ours", and the person that ganks me makes it "theirs". However it is generally agreed upon that self-destruct is needed to stop perma griefing.
This conversation has been covered before. I will restate some of the general purposed fixes again:
- Loot should remian just as though the target was destroyed by an external force. - No insurance payment for self-destruct. (This would solve some other issues, too) - All modules go offline at some point in the destruct sequence. (I don't agree with this but it has been brought up.)
I agree with the top two, but I doubt such trivial things will ever be a priority for CCP.
The loot is of course "yours" after you have blown up the ship. If it doesn't die from your hand... tough luck. I see no problem with self-destruct. Sure it sucks when you don't get fat loot but like said, Eve universe is a harsh place. Carebears get ganked, precious targets self-destruct. He's just denying you his loot and the killmail, just like a pirate is denying a carebear access to lowsec. That's Eve.
---
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Inara Subaka
Caldari the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2008.12.16 22:26:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Vitelius The loot is of course "yours" after you have blown up the ship. If it doesn't die from your hand... tough luck.
QFT. If you can't kill your target in under 2 minutes (usually more because most people won't hit SD instantly) you need to work on something.
I see the reason for destroying loot with a SD, in fact, I support it. I would like to see the insurance payment for a SD removed... seriously, if you go intentionally wreck your car into a telephone pole, the insurance company isn't going to pay you. As for the modules going offline; meh, I haven't really thought about it tbh.
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Endless Subversion
The Accursed
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Posted - 2008.12.17 04:00:00 -
[18]
THE ANSWER IS NOT 'THEY NEED MORE DPS'
We want to encourage non-blob options. Solo cap-warfare boats or small ships utilizing ewar or transversing bigger ships should not be denied their kills because it takes over 2 min.
I've had this discussion before HERE
It's broken, has been broken, and shows no sign of ever being fixed. Along with aggression timers, logging off and ecm*. Welcome to eve.
*Falcons are at least in for some balancing, even if ECM as a whole might not be.
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Dasfry
Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.17 04:47:00 -
[19]
Would you still complain if Self destruct was a 10 minute timer? *********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation
Military Tactics |
Karenzi
No Trademark Notoriety Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.17 06:03:00 -
[20]
this is a big deal to me when it comes to capital ships and the fact they can still fire back at you.
self destruct should either be 1) instant or 2) modules turn off
also no loot but killmail + lossmail (for record and efficiency, this is a PVP game...)
i really cant see anyone coming up with a valid counter argument to these two ideas.
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ghost st
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Posted - 2008.12.17 06:25:00 -
[21]
Self destruct is fine
If you cant kill him within a certain window, then you dont deserve the phat lootz. I think killmails should be given (just to the loser, for purpose of his corpmates loling at him, and keeping track of stats)
Insurance shouldnt change either, if your ships gonna die either way, i really dont think they give a damn.
As far as caps are concerned sd needs a little tweaking, maybe it should take a little longer.
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.12.17 09:18:00 -
[22]
I'm not bothering with reading the thread.
Purpose of self destruct:
You're dieing.. if you just plain die.. you drop modules and such. If you self destruct no modules survive. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
space bully
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2008.12.17 10:49:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Karenzi
(for record and efficiency, this is a PVP game...)
WRONG!
This is not a PVP game! This is a mmorpg! Yes there is the element of pvp in the game, but you'd better damn well not just think that it only is a pvp just becuse you fail to agree with the topic owner or if you agree!
That is only an attempt to grief turn the thread into something that is a lie, based on the wishes on one small little insignificant person like you!
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Keitaro Baka
Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project
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Posted - 2008.12.17 11:15:00 -
[24]
self destruct is fine
-Bring more dps. If think this is a blob incentive it shows more about you than about us. Learn to fly dps ships, bring more of them, also bring neuts to drop a cap's cap hence it's tank in a mere minute.
-If you think you're entitled to loot you didn't actually make drop, you're in the wrong game. Same goes for killmail tbfh.
As for the 'solutions' to the 'problem' that some people have stated: - no insurance: sure, but then no insurance for pirates, criminal acts etc either. There, that should get that 'solution' sorted. - killmail. Well .. did you kill anything? I would love to have killmails for everything I shot but didn't kill.. Same with loot. - turning off mods/dropping cap/whatever: you have 2 minutes. The one you are shooting will lose his/her ship anyway. Why should you be given any more ease to kill someone who has given up, but wants to deny you the kill + perks? 2 Minutes, bring friends/more dps.
All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me.. Drone guide.. |
Kiva Aharan
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Posted - 2008.12.17 12:36:00 -
[25]
I think self destruct is working just fine. In the situations you describe where we can't finish off the target and they self-destruct it is simply making PvP two way for them. They quite obviously have no choice otherwise, so they can at least thumb their noses at us as they go down. It gives our targets the chance to deliver to us a little of the anger and frustration we give them on a daily basis as pirates, and perhaps persuades us to be a bit more clever with ransoming attempts instead of simply going for kills every time.
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Guerillakrieg
Gunz 4 Hire
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Posted - 2008.12.17 14:15:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Keitaro Baka
-If you think you're entitled to loot you didn't actually make drop, you're in the wrong game. Same goes for killmail tbfh. quote]
/signed
WOW is that way
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Inara Subaka
Caldari the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2008.12.17 21:24:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Keitaro Baka self destruct is fine
-Bring more dps. If think this is a blob incentive it shows more about you than about us. Learn to fly dps ships, bring more of them, also bring neuts to drop a cap's cap hence it's tank in a mere minute.
-If you think you're entitled to loot you didn't actually make drop, you're in the wrong game. Same goes for killmail tbfh.
Finally, another voice of reason. You don't have to blob to bring more DPS, I don't know how much clearer it can be made.
And if in the 2 minutes of SD timer + however long the fight was going before they hit the button isn't enough time for you to kill them, you did NOT kill them so why would you get a KM?
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Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.18 20:31:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 18/12/2008 20:34:15
a deliberate selfdestruct has the advantage of targeting every single useable system in the ship leaving no useful loot.. that's what it's about. Attacker = wants loot; shoots to make a lootable wreak. self destructer = doesn't want there to be loot; blows the ship to hades from the inside out..
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BiggestT
Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.12.19 16:04:00 -
[29]
I like the option to stick it to ur aggressors.
But I think its unfair that cap pilots can do it, as they take a v. long time to kill, and it means small gangs find it hard to get "Proper" carrier kills. So I think self-destruct should still produce a km if its cap/supercap.
Oh and Im not sure if any1 pointed this out but...
Self destruct is what fuels insurance fraud \o/ (get the isk back before insurance runs out). EVE history
t2 precisions |
Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.12.19 16:55:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Matrix Skye on 19/12/2008 17:02:51
Originally by: Vitelius The loot is of course "yours" after you have blown up the ship. If it doesn't die from your hand... tough luck. I see no problem with self-destruct. Sure it sucks when you don't get fat loot but like said, Eve universe is a harsh place. Carebears get ganked, precious targets self-destruct. He's just denying you his loot and the killmail, just like a pirate is denying a carebear access to lowsec. That's Eve.
QFT
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