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The Tzar
Malicious Intentions The Church.
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Posted - 2008.12.19 13:01:00 -
[31]
10 minutes permajammed...., I do hope this is not another exaggeration to make a point.
10 minutes = 600 seconds = 30 jam cycles
You're telling me that with no better than 25% chance of jamming per cycle the falcon had you jammed every single time?
My own experience when flying a falcon does not share the same results... __________________________________________
'Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear intelligent until they speak' __________________________________________ |
maralt
Minmatar The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.19 13:17:00 -
[32]
Originally by: The Tzar 10 minutes permajammed...., I do hope this is not another exaggeration to make a point.
10 minutes = 600 seconds = 30 jam cycles
You're telling me that with no better than 25% chance of jamming per cycle the falcon had you jammed every single time?
My own experience when flying a falcon does not share the same results...
My personal favorite was the carrier pilot that fitted racks of ECCM modules so he had like 500+ or summat sig str them claimed a single falcon "perma-jammed" him.......
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Venomae
Thundercats RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.19 13:21:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Prev T'ck How on earth do I do it?
I was running in a cane with backup ladar II +96% ladar, took me to 31 signal strength. 1 falcon kept me jammed for about 6 minutes without a single fail. I thought that maybe my sensor was still too low, so I fitted a phoon with 2 ladar II's, 57.5 sensor strength, came across the same gang, and again the one falcon kept me jammed for 10 minutes while their group of frigs and cruisers chewed me up. What is it I can do to counter this? If i could get 15 seconds locked on the jammer he would be done.
Any help?
So you died as solo to group of other ships. And now you cry that you couldn't solo them all.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2008.12.19 13:33:00 -
[34]
don't backup ladars go into low slot? - putting the gist back into logistics |
sdthujfg
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Posted - 2008.12.19 14:09:00 -
[35]
Originally by: The Tzar 10 minutes permajammed...., I do hope this is not another exaggeration to make a point.
10 minutes = 600 seconds = 30 jam cycles
You're telling me that with no better than 25% chance of jamming per cycle the falcon had you jammed every single time?
My own experience when flying a falcon does not share the same results...
One single falcon can actually easily perma jam a BC for a long long time. I've done it several times even perma jammed BS for a really really long time.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.12.19 14:47:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Jack Dant Either you've been really unlucky, or I'm very lucky.
Lately, I've been using a hurricane with 2 best named eccms when I know falcons are likely. That fit has so far killed a rook, a falcon, and forced 2 others to warp away in structure.
Of course, in all cases they were poor pilots who either let me get into range, or jumped/undocked into me.
Well isnt that the way the cookie crumbles?
In most cases I reckon.
The situations which tend to be most often mentioned in falconwhines tend to be the ideal situation for a falcon where it has multiple warp points in a circle around an area and it and its gang is ambushing their opponents and thereby dictating the terms of the engagement.
With preplaced warp points on the grid and its gang in the center a falcon becomes a rather nasty bugger is the general concencus. But is that the situation that is most commonly seen? "Subtlety is a thing for philosophy, not combat. If you're going to kill someone, you might as well kill them a whole lot." - Vulcan Raven, The Last Days Of Foxhound |
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2008.12.19 15:03:00 -
[37]
Originally by: sdthujfg One single falcon can actually easily perma jam a BC for a long long time.
What do you think perma means?
And to the OP - as has been said, a single Falcon will have a ridiculously good chance to jam a single ship as he can dedicate all his jammers to it. ECCM is very effective at reducing the Falcon's effectiveness as he will generally need to use more jammers to acheive the same effect, and so it can be great in fleets of battleships; but given that a Falcon can deal with multiple un-ECCMed ships effectively, fitting multiple mods yourself is not likely to materially change matters (the quick calculations above where the Falcon still has a 91% chance to jam you per cycle feel about right).
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maralt
Minmatar The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.19 15:12:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Gartel Reiman
Originally by: sdthujfg One single falcon can actually easily perma jam a BC for a long long time.
What do you think perma means?
I suppose it means jammed until your dead although its rather misleading as you could die in under 20 secs very easily in a gang fight......
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Beltantis Torrence
Steel Soldier's NEXUS ALLIANCE
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Posted - 2008.12.19 15:18:00 -
[39]
Fly around in a blackbird or scorpion for a couple weeks then come back and ask this question again.
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Prev T'ck
Minmatar James Edward Glover
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Posted - 2008.12.19 17:11:00 -
[40]
In the cases I stated in the first post the gang of ships were poor pilots at best with some very crippled fittings from what I could tell. Their damage to me was laughable for a gang of their size.
Just to be clear, I did not post this to cry about falcons, the ship has its job and it does it well. I am just curious if a normal ship can feasably counter the ECM on it, and if so whats the best way to go about it. I'm not hurt over losing a couple ships to a gang, life goes on.
And the 6 mins and 10 mins are not an exaggeration, like I said, their damage was laughable to the cane and even worse to a dual rep phoon.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.12.19 17:36:00 -
[41]
Well in a 1 for 1 there are only a few caldari vessels that can neutralize the falcons in a 1v1.
But the basic premises tend to be this due to its ammount of slots a falcon will rarely fit more than 2 racial modules for the same race. That means if you have a ship with a high base sensor strenght and you add 2 ECCM modules to it the falcon will struggle , if you overheat the ECCMs it should make it even harder. "Subtlety is a thing for philosophy, not combat. If you're going to kill someone, you might as well kill them a whole lot." - Vulcan Raven, The Last Days Of Foxhound |
Jodie Amille
Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.12.19 17:57:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Prev T'ck I am just curious if a normal ship can feasably counter the ECM on it, and if so whats the best way to go about it.
Easiest way? Fit 1-2 sensor boosters with scan res scripts and jump through the gate. When the falcon comes after you, make sure to to get drones on it asap. If the rest of the gang comes through first, re-approach, get a quick gank then degress and jump back out. Obviously not always successful depending what else you're fighting as well, but there's not much else to do solo. --------
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Apoctasy
Fluffy Muffins
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Posted - 2008.12.19 19:14:00 -
[43]
Any falcon can keep you 99.9 % jammed if you're the only target he has. Having 5-6 jammers all concentrated on one target will shut that target down for good.
And he probably wasn't perma jamming you the entire time with a single jammer. As soon as one fails, he probably switched to the next and kept cycling them.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2008.12.19 19:17:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Prev T'ck So am I just unlucky? Surely the odds of jamming for 10 minutes without fail on a ship with 57 sensor have to be astronomical right?
Maybe the falcon pilot knew you were the only ship he needed to jam and refitted all minmatar racials to increase his odds?
Still, being permanently jammed by a falcon for 10 minutes (30 cycles) without failing a single cycle is highly unlikely, if I were you I'd not go outside the house anymore, chances are you'd die from lightning strike
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Corstaad
Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.12.19 19:23:00 -
[45]
This post is ******ed. You lost a BC to a BC, two Recons, and Frig. Then lost a BS to a BS, two BC, one recon, ceptor, and a frig. Your trying to troll or just a nub.
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VoiceInTheDesert
Gallente Diplomatic Disruption
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Posted - 2008.12.19 19:30:00 -
[46]
Edited by: VoiceInTheDesert on 19/12/2008 19:30:35
Originally by: OffBeaT Edited by: OffBeaT on 19/12/2008 05:50:22 what about damps if you have high skills in electronic warfare?
would they be effective?
No. Despite what Falcon pilots tell you...it's impossible in a real combat situation.
I'm an arazu/lachesis pilot and I speak from experience.
But looking at your story, I think the falcon was the least of your worries.
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Poast Warrior
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.12.19 20:08:00 -
[47]
It's obvious ECCM needs a boost.
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Cade Morrigan
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.12.19 20:15:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Poast Warrior It's obvious ECCM needs a boost.
Because one very expensive ship, totally dedicated to one purpose, can't be countered by one cheap ship which isn't dedicated to defending itself against these attacks? |
Wardeneo
DEATHFUNK Doctrine.
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Posted - 2008.12.19 20:34:00 -
[49]
ECCM
wardeneo
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Poast Warrior
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.12.19 20:42:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Cade Morrigan
Originally by: Poast Warrior It's obvious ECCM needs a boost.
Because one very expensive ship, totally dedicated to one purpose, can't be countered by one cheap ship which isn't dedicated to defending itself against these attacks?
Really not he point (and I have a maxed falcon alt btw).
Using a *very* expensive low slot module and a *very* expensive mid slot module, should offer near immunity to a single form of EWAR, especially since it offers not a single other benefit.
It's called balance and making trade offs.
That's my opinion on it anyways.
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Cade Morrigan
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.12.19 21:11:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Poast Warrior
Originally by: Cade Morrigan
Originally by: Poast Warrior It's obvious ECCM needs a boost.
Because one very expensive ship, totally dedicated to one purpose, can't be countered by one cheap ship which isn't dedicated to defending itself against these attacks?
Really not he point (and I have a maxed falcon alt btw).
Using a *very* expensive low slot module and a *very* expensive mid slot module, should offer near immunity to a single form of EWAR, especially since it offers not a single other benefit.
It's called balance and making trade offs.
I guess I don't see 2 defensive modules as a significant tradeoff when the falcon is using, probably, 2 lows and 5 or 6 mids to do that job. --
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Mysteriax
Scoopex
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Posted - 2008.12.20 00:50:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Cade Morrigan
Originally by: Poast Warrior
Originally by: Cade Morrigan
Originally by: Poast Warrior It's obvious ECCM needs a boost.
Because one very expensive ship, totally dedicated to one purpose, can't be countered by one cheap ship which isn't dedicated to defending itself against these attacks?
Really not he point (and I have a maxed falcon alt btw).
Using a *very* expensive low slot module and a *very* expensive mid slot module, should offer near immunity to a single form of EWAR, especially since it offers not a single other benefit.
It's called balance and making trade offs.
I guess I don't see 2 defensive modules as a significant tradeoff when the falcon is using, probably, 2 lows and 5 or 6 mids to do that job.
If i cant fully stop 3 battleships from 200km with my rapier? Why can you do it with a falcon? I dont mind trading all its tank and all its dps and other slots for it, sounds fair right against a rapier they still will be able to shoot aswell.
Somehow i think the calamari would whine there asses off if that happened yet you think its fair to do even better with a falcon. Might be good for Minmatar all of our cruiser sized ships or bigger are so crap noone trains Minmatar anymore (besides me).
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Brother Nightfall
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.12.20 01:48:00 -
[53]
Against 57 sensor strength, a good Falcon pilot would be jamming it 83% of the time, but only if he was fitting a full rack of six appropriate racial jammers.
A more normal situation would be the Falcon fitting 2 appropriate racial jammers and 4 inappropriate. At this stage, he'd be jamming your 'Cane about 57% of the time. Hardly seems overpowered to me, considering he wouldn't be packing any tank, and probably would have no weapons either.
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Poast Warrior
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.12.20 02:35:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Brother Nightfall
A more normal situation would be the Falcon fitting 2 appropriate racial jammers and 4 inappropriate. At this stage, he'd be jamming your 'Cane about 57% of the time. Hardly seems overpowered to me, considering he wouldn't be packing any tank, and probably would have no weapons either.
I don't think the solo aspect is the question here.
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Prev T'ck
Minmatar James Edward Glover
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Posted - 2008.12.20 04:26:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Brother Nightfall Against 57 sensor strength, a good Falcon pilot would be jamming it 83% of the time, but only if he was fitting a full rack of six appropriate racial jammers.
A more normal situation would be the Falcon fitting 2 appropriate racial jammers and 4 inappropriate. At this stage, he'd be jamming your 'Cane about 57% of the time. Hardly seems overpowered to me, considering he wouldn't be packing any tank, and probably would have no weapons either.
Thanks I was hoping someone had the numbers!
The 57% is what he would have hit using the racial jammer for me right? I guess the other ones would have a chance of about 1/3rd of that, almost 20%.
Does anyone know about the backup array's? Does each mod need to be individually jammed or do the just add to you current str?
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.12.20 04:51:00 -
[56]
Originally by: sdthujfg
Originally by: The Tzar 10 minutes permajammed...., I do hope this is not another exaggeration to make a point.
10 minutes = 600 seconds = 30 jam cycles
You're telling me that with no better than 25% chance of jamming per cycle the falcon had you jammed every single time?
My own experience when flying a falcon does not share the same results...
One single falcon can actually easily perma jam a BC for a long long time. I've done it several times even perma jammed BS for a really really long time.
Perma jamming by default implies you jammed them for a really long time. From a literal standpoint, it's rare for any ship to be truly perma jammed as that requires the falcon to have higher strength jammers than the target has in sensor strength, and at a bit over 14 with maxed skills on the falcon's jammers that means the only things that can literally be perma jammed are cruisers and frigates (and even then many T2 cruisers and frigates have substantially higher sensor strengths than 14).
In game terms, one can achieve a perma jam even without this by getting lucky enough to jam for several cycles in a row, keeping the target jammed long enough for the gang to destroy it.
Unless one of these two scenarios is what you experience, you did not achieve or suffer a perma jam and are simply using inflammatory rhetoric that is only effective on the people who agree with you and do nothing more than alienate those who happen to sit on the other side of the falcon debate.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.12.20 04:58:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Poast Warrior
Originally by: Cade Morrigan
Originally by: Poast Warrior It's obvious ECCM needs a boost.
Because one very expensive ship, totally dedicated to one purpose, can't be countered by one cheap ship which isn't dedicated to defending itself against these attacks?
Really not he point (and I have a maxed falcon alt btw).
Using a *very* expensive low slot module and a *very* expensive mid slot module, should offer near immunity to a single form of EWAR, especially since it offers not a single other benefit.
It's called balance and making trade offs.
That's my opinion on it anyways.
This is indeed the crux of the ECCM debate is it not? Does ECCM exist to defend any and all ships in a gang against ECM or does it exist in order to build specialized anti-ECM ships?
If The case is the former, perhaps there is a solution to the logic of using the stupidly expensive, ultra specialized falcon problem by introducing a new stupidly expensive ultra specialized counter. Something on the order of a breed of ships that exist more or less to project an "immunity to EWAR (web, point, ecm, damp, etc) in a smallish (say 10km radius) around the ship. Such a ship would have no legitimate offensive potential, no legitimate ability to tank and would become one of the biggest bullet magnets in the game.
If the case is the latter, then a simple boost to ECCM strength and/or making it a sensor booster script (as sensor boosters are needed in most any anti-ecm platform anyway) is an excellent solution.
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Aleus Stygian
Failed Diplomacy Collidable Objects
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Posted - 2008.12.20 06:00:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Cade Morrigan
Originally by: Poast Warrior
Originally by: Cade Morrigan
Originally by: Poast Warrior It's obvious ECCM needs a boost.
Because one very expensive ship, totally dedicated to one purpose, can't be countered by one cheap ship which isn't dedicated to defending itself against these attacks?
Really not he point (and I have a maxed falcon alt btw).
Using a *very* expensive low slot module and a *very* expensive mid slot module, should offer near immunity to a single form of EWAR, especially since it offers not a single other benefit.
It's called balance and making trade offs.
I guess I don't see 2 defensive modules as a significant tradeoff when the falcon is using, probably, 2 lows and 5 or 6 mids to do that job.
Yada yada yada. Look, it's like this... Falcons do have counters, but there's not a damn thing that works well enough, and so few things that can actually kill the *****es swiftly and surely enough that it should matter. If the Falcon problem were comparable to cancer, with participating in PvP and being jammed to death the equivalent of being near chemicals and radiation and running the risk of catching it, and the alternative of not participating in PvP were something like living in a cave or a cottage way out somewhere, and cancer cures were comparably effective to the current counters... I think we'd consider euthanasia a lot more humane. _________________________________________________________
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.12.20 06:22:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Prev T'ck So am I just unlucky? Surely the odds of jamming for 10 minutes without fail on a ship with 57 sensor have to be astronomical right?
Maybe the falcon pilot knew you were the only ship he needed to jam and refitted all minmatar racials to increase his odds?
Still, being permanently jammed by a falcon for 10 minutes (30 cycles) without failing a single cycle is highly unlikely, if I were you I'd not go outside the house anymore, chances are you'd die from lightning strike
well if he is using 5 jammers he only needs to be successful on 30/150 cycles. (hell only hitting 25 would still make it seem like a perma jam if he spaces them out a little)
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.12.20 07:01:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Mysteriax
If i cant fully stop 3 battleships from 200km with my rapier? Why can you do it with a falcon? I dont mind trading all its tank and all its dps and other slots for it, sounds fair right against a rapier they still will be able to shoot aswell.
Somehow i think the calamari would whine there asses off if that happened yet you think its fair to do even better with a falcon. Might be good for Minmatar all of our cruiser sized ships or bigger are so crap noone trains Minmatar anymore (besides me).
no, but rather than have a 60-80% chance to jam (on a bs), you get a 100% successful 60% slow. although it only works out to 40km (52km over load, 55.5km with claymore in gang, and 72km with overload and claymore). personally I think the other recons should be stronger.
and no you cant fully jam 3 bs from 200km in a falcon, it is just more likely that you will than you wont.
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