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Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2008.12.24 10:13:00 - [61] Originally by: Dasfry Edited by: Dasfry on 24/12/2008 09:46:48 Instead of trying to modify the way the game works... why not try to modify your tactics? get someone to probe out the damn falcon from off grid, warp in a small suicide gank squad point blank and tear the falcon a new one... continue singling out the falcon first soon enough falcon pilot hates life What you are proposing is: "if someone brings falcon be sure to bring 3+ people to counter it". Yeh most people are smart enough to outblob falcon users - problem is: it doesnt give you fights. Most people will run as soon as you outblob them. Also i can modify your tactics so its way easier to pull off: "bring your own falcon". Why play "probes + suicide gang" when you can have your own falcon? Also it is EXACTLY same thing which i heard against nano battleships. "bring more people to tackle it" "bring your own nano battleship". Rings a bell?
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.24 10:29:00 - [62] I could bring a bunch of arazus against a lot of the gang setups i see ppl claiming that falcons destroy on here and wipe them out, as most of them are close range fits that could be easily made impotent by damps. TBH i think falcons serve a purpose, now this may make them annoying against a solo ship or very small gang but thems the breaks when you pvp as a small squad has plenty of similarly sized gang that DO NOT include a falcon they would lose to....
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2008.12.24 10:31:00 - [63] Last i heard arazus dont damp that good at 200ish km.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.24 10:41:00 - [64] Edited by: maralt on 24/12/2008 10:44:59 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Last i heard arazus dont damp that good at 200ish km. That is ok cos most of the ppl on here crying about falcons are flying short range setups anyway let alone carry multiple sensor booster with range scripts..... Falcons do not jam 100% guaranteed in their optimal range (or any range for that matter), while damps always reduce targeting range or speed in theirs..
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2008.12.24 11:00:00 - [65] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 24/12/2008 11:02:46 1. most falcons DO have 200km range fits (sensor + range rig(s)) 2. at 200km your arazu wont do anything to them. And this is NOT because you can not LOCK that far but because dampeners have SHORT range (unless you get very lucky with dampener faloff roll) 3. using lock time reduction instead of lock range reduction on 200km falcon is ******ed 4. maybe your falcon cant permajam anything. Mine does use overheat + sometimes eos so can even permajam low tier battleships. And even without eos i get nice 14 str on racials which can permajam most HACs
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.24 11:09:00 - [66] Edited by: maralt on 24/12/2008 11:10:07 Originally by: Deva Blackfire 1. most falcons DO have 200km range fits (sensor + range rig(s)) I know, i never said they do not, learn how to read. Originally by: Deva Blackfire 2. at 200km your arazu wont do anything to them. I never said it would, learn how to read. Originally by: Deva Blackfire 3. using lock time reduction instead of lock range reduction on 200km falcon is ****ed I did not say anything about using lock time reduction against falcons at any range let alone 200km, learn how to read. Originally by:** Deva Blackfire 4. maybe your falcon cant permajam anything. Mine does use overheat..... You can perma-overheat? I think you and others need to look up what PERMA means and learn how to read.
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2008.12.24 11:18:00 - [67] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 24/12/2008 11:21:36 I think you are trolling like always instead posting about the subject. So gtfo back to your "i need 60km blasters" thread.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.24 11:26:00 - [68] Edited by: maralt on 24/12/2008 11:26:57 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Learn to write so people can understand what you are trying to say. Putting words in random order doesnt make proper sentence out of it. 1. Learn how to read. Originally by: Deva Blackfire You 1st imply that falcons "not always" jam 2. They do not always jam. Originally by: Deva Blackfire then you imply that dampeners "always work". And i already shown you that dampeners do not always work outside of 45km (maxskilled optimal) range. 3. I clearly mentioned i was talking about inside damp range, learn how to read. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Also if you want to bring "random useless knowledge" go to other threads. Plus i already shown you that falcons DO permajam depending on what their target is. I also never specified certain ships, so falcons cannot perma jam every ship type. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Oh yes i can overheat them too long enough for the fight to actually finish before i need to bother with module damage. Wrong, a fight lasts as long as it lasts. You cannot overheat indefinitely so in longer fights you will need to turn off over heat or burn out your mods. Stop lying. Originally by: Deva Blackfire So either you post on topic or **** off, troll. I am on topic you just a emo troll who did not read my posts properly.
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2008.12.24 11:29:00 - [69] So how is your "knowledge" at all useful to someone who flies in small gangs? Back to your previous post: Quote: That is ok cos most of the ppl on here crying about falcons are flying short range setups anyway let alone carry multiple sensor booster with range scripts..... So which ships will be able to counter falcon by fitting multiple sensor boosters? And im talking SMALL ROAMING GANG stuff here. And which of those ships will be able to actually fend off 200km falcon?
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.24 11:30:00 - [70] Edited by: maralt on 24/12/2008 11:30:21 Learn how to read.
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2008.12.24 11:31:00 - [71] Originally by: maralt Learn how to read. Me be not understand yoo. Yoo translate. Or GTFO like i said. Asked specific question: how is your "knowledge" useful to small gangs. You fail to deliever.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.24 11:33:00 - [72] Edited by: maralt on 24/12/2008 11:36:07 Originally by: Deva Blackfire angry illiterate rant Calm down read from the start or gtfo fool, your emo is clouding your judgment and your ability to read.
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2008.12.24 11:35:00 - [73] You are still trolling and STILL not replying to my question. What would you change? Or what gang fits do you propose for small roaming gangs to actively defend themselves from falcons? Or you just dont know? Then why are you still here?
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.24 11:44:00 - [74] Originally by: Deva Blackfire more emo ranting I made a few very useful and clear posts earlier but your emo rage for some reason made you misread them and start ranting and even making stupid claims that i am asking for 60km blasters on another thread. Now as far as your questions are concerned i do not think its a good idea to encourage your emo rage, although i do think that a small gang without ecm that engages another small gang that not only has ecm but has it setup at long range SHOULD lose.
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2008.12.24 11:48:00 - [75] Quote: i do think that a small gang without ecm that engages another small gang that not only has ecm but has it setup at long range SHOULD lose. So what you exactly are saying is: "if enemy has falcon bring your own falcon". Yup - its perfect reason for a nerf - exactly same as with nanophoons. Good to know your opinion on it tho - at least someone confirming the system is broken.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.24 11:51:00 - [76] Edited by: maralt on 24/12/2008 11:52:31 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Quote: i do think that a small gang without ecm that engages another small gang that not only has ecm but has it setup at long range SHOULD lose. More emo range and deliberate misinterpretation Fixed. See i told you it was a waste of time talking to you and replying to your questions, your emo is too strong and it clouds your reason.
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2008.12.24 11:57:00 - [77] Quote: i do think that a small gang without ecm that engages another small gang that not only has ecm but has it setup at long range SHOULD lose. here - ill do interpretation for small kids - like you do in primary school: "small gang" - gang of 5-10 people "without ecm" - not bringing falcon/rook/other ECM boats "another small gang" - another gang of 5-10 people " not only has ecm but has it setup at long range" - thus falcon or rook (or maybe scorp) sitting at 200km Thus you are saying that gang without ECM should lose to gang with long range ECM. And this is broken. because its exactly "gang without nanophoon should lose to gang with nanophoon". Thus you are still confirming what was said in this thread: ECM impact on combat is TOO heavy. No other ship class/module can imbalance small gang fight on the level ECM does. You cant say "side with more webs should win" neither "side with more dampeners should win". But you said "side with more ECM should win". Why am i ignoring "long range setup ECM"? Because counter ECM is also long range. Defauls ECM boat is falcon which is long range ECM boat by itself. You want to add something else? Or only thing left is insults like you did thru half of this page?
Laevateinn	Posted - 2008.12.24 12:04:00 - [78] If the system is such that you can only fight fire with fire, then we've lost the sandbox nature of things. If there is a ship that can disable large portions of gangs, has the advantages of being cloaked with none of its drawbacks, be out of range of all but the best sniper fits yet still be effective, and if the best counter I hear is to 'bring one of your own' then ladies and gentlemen, get training those Falcons. I can think of no better way to encourage change really, when small gang warfare is determined by how good your Falcon pilot is, or how many you can bring. Because the alternative is blob warfare, which creates server load, which is something that directly affects everyone else (lag), and as such, will grab the attention of CCP.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.24 12:12:00 - [79] Edited by: maralt on 24/12/2008 12:14:12 Originally by: Deva Blackfire "small gang" - gang of 5-10 people "without ecm" - not bringing falcon/rook/other ECM boats "another small gang" - another gang of 5-10 people " not only has ecm but has it setup at long range" - thus falcon or rook (or maybe scorp) sitting at 200km Ok kiddies mr emo did ok up to here. Now as things are the gang without ewar has to be considered rather out of position (maybe just jumped into a setup camp) and rather poorly setup as a gang considering the available options in eve. Now if the non ecm gang is sniper fitted the falcon not only must jam all 5-10 (its imposable to jam 10 with 1 falcon and even jamming 5 would require the exactly correct racials) or either die/warp off. While also its true that if the falcon/ecm gang is jumping into the camp that the ewar ship must cloak (if a falcon) and spend a lot of time repositioning (by witch time a 5-10 man gang fight would be close to over tbh), or be called instantly primary and melted. The moral of the story is that its always better to be in a versatile gang and also to dictate the terms and range of the engagement to suit you, these are called basic tactics. Bombers with damps make okish scouts and are very effective at neutering falcons.
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2008.12.24 12:28:00 - [80] Originally by: maralt Now as things are the gang without ewar has to be considered rather out of position (maybe just jumped into a setup camp) and rather poorly setup as a gang considering the available options in eve. I would assume that most gatecamps are badly prepared (usually with mix of this-and-that so everyone can get on killmail) and gatebreaking gangs are ones that know what to expect (especially if they are created to break particular gatecamp). But we can assume both sides are equally-well-fit. Quote: Now if the non ecm gang is sniper fitted the falcon not only must jam all 5-10 (its imposable to jam 10 with 1 falcon and even jamming 5 would require the exactly correct racials) or either die/warp off. We are still talking about small gangs. And in small gangs the ONLY 200km "snipers" are eagle, cerb and falcon. You will rarely see battleships inside 5-10 man gangs and especially sniper battleships. Even if you include them this only adds up: rokh, raven and apocalypse (mega/hyperion is just on edge of range, ill ignore em this time). And you are saying that falcon needs to jam 5-10 ships to stay on field thus enemy gang should have 5-10 "snipers". Thats the whole size of said gang (note: small gang) which means that its quite easily disposed. Snipers arent known for their resilence. Quote: While also its true that if the falcon/ecm gang is jumping into the camp that the ewar ship must cloak (if a falcon) and spend a lot of time repositioning (by witch time a 5-10 man gang fight would be close to over tbh), or be called instantly primary and melted. It is quite possible (and oten used) to jump in falcons 1st and let them prepare around gate. With new larger gates its very hard to catch them before they warp off. Quote: The moral of the story is that its always better to be in a versatile gang and also to dictate the terms and range of the engagement to suit you, these are called basic tactics. Which still doesnt say anything about why falcons are used around 80% of the time in gangs instead of other ships. And this was the point of this thread. Falcons being too good compared to other ECM boats (which turned into ECM whine - but ECM system being buggered is entirely another thing). Quote: Bombers with damps make okish scouts and are very effective at neutering falcons. They die way too fast to anything that looks at them funny and after falcon repositions they still need to crawl to new location. Thus they are one trick pony, good when you know where falcon sits or if falcon pilots lacks spots to warp around.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.24 12:52:00 - [81] Originally by: Deva Blackfire But we can assume both sides are equally-well-fit. Id say that a gang without ewar is badly setup tbh but ok. Originally by: Deva Blackfire We are still talking about small gangs. And in small gangs the ONLY 200km "snipers" are eagle, cerb and falcon. You will rarely see battleships inside 5-10 man gangs and especially sniper battleships. Even if you include them this only adds up: rokh, raven and apocalypse (mega/hyperion is just on edge of range, ill ignore em this time). And scorp. Small gangs does not necessarily mean small (non BS) ships. Originally by: Deva Blackfire It is quite possible (and often used) to jump in falcons 1st and let them prepare around gate. With new larger gates its very hard to catch them before they warp off. That applies to the bombers i mention, as well as the fact that both sides should be allowed prepared bookmarks if your giving your falcon them... Originally by: Deva Blackfire Which still doesnt say anything about why falcons are used around 80% of the time in gangs instead of other ships. Falcons are used in gangs cos they are a good and useful gang ship when flown correctly, but other ecm ships are better in certain circumstances, as well as other recons are better in certain circumstances as well. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Falcons being too good compared to other ECM boats. Horses for courses tbh, if i was in a situation against a gang that could hit at range or if i was in a RR gang id prefer a scorp as fitted correctly it could engage immediately on jumpin (instead of needing to reposition) and stay/tank and jam a lot longer in combat than the falcon.
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2008.12.24 13:10:00 - [82] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Deva Blackfire Which still doesnt say anything about why falcons are used around 80% of the time in gangs instead of other ships. Falcons are used in gangs cos they are a good and useful gang ship when flown correctly, but other ecm ships are better in certain circumstances, as well as other recons are better in certain circumstances as well. So when is rook better than falcon? Scorpion is better sometimes when you play RR gangs/jump into camp but in this situation falcon will still be able to jump 1st and get to spot, wheras scorpion will be primaried and there is almost no chance for RR gangs to save scorps because to their small HP buffer. This or fleet fight jammers because they are much cheaper than falcons. But except for fleets (where jamming is mediciore/bad idea anyways) falcon is MUCH better ship than scorpion. Which is back to start: falcon is way better than other EWar ships. And where i still say what was said before: remove their range bonus. Close cloaky or long range non-cloaky (rook) exactly like pilgrim/curse duo works.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.24 13:18:00 - [83] Edited by: maralt on 24/12/2008 13:24:24 Originally by: Deva Blackfire So when is rook better than falcon? When is Lachesis better than a arazu?. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Which is back to start: falcon is way better than other EWar ships. At jamming yes..but at webbing, or putting a point on summat or nueting or just general solo pvp?. It can be considered good at its jamming, even great at jamming but it also can be considered utterly useless at everything apart from jamming.
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2008.12.24 13:46:00 - [84] Quote: Which is back to start: falcon is way better than other EWar ships. At jamming yes..but at webbing, or putting a point on summat or nueting or just general solo pvp?. Yes i am talking about ECM boats and not comparing them to all EW boats. My mistake, but you perfectly knew what i meant. Playing with words doesnt make you look smart, you know?
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.24 13:54:00 - [85] Edited by: maralt on 24/12/2008 13:56:08 Edited by: maralt on 24/12/2008 13:55:37 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Quote: Which is back to start: falcon is way better than other EWar ships. At jamming yes..but at webbing, or putting a point on summat or nueting or just general solo pvp?. Yes i am talking about ECM boats and not comparing them to all EW boats. My mistake, but you perfectly knew what i meant. Playing with words doesnt make you look smart, you know? Actually if you look at the bottom of post 81 you actually use the phrase "ECM ships" as the referance for them so i thought you were referring to all ewar ships when you used the term "ewar ships" and not "ECM ships" tbh. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Falcons being too good compared to other ECM boats. See... You should really be less emo, i believe i mentioned that before...
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2008.12.24 14:03:00 - [86] If you were following what i said in this thread (i sure do hope you read everything instead of jumping straight to last page) you would know i was talking only about ECM ships. Thus use of EWar boats was as a synonym to ECM ship in this particular case. Its obvious to someone who reads and understands what he is reading isnt it? As for emo part - i have no clue what you are talking about. Googling for "emo" gives me pictures of some gay/homosexual looking people. Maybe you are trying just to tell me you are accustomed to this culture/subculture but you dont need to drag me down to their level. So i dont judge who you are or how ya look like, neither i care. But if you want to post make it readable instead of playing smartass which you do.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.24 14:13:00 - [87] Edited by: maralt on 24/12/2008 14:13:44 Originally by: Deva Blackfire If you were following what i said in this thread (i sure do hope you read everything instead of jumping straight to last page) you would know i was talking only about ECM ships. Thus use of EWar boats was as a synonym to ECM ship in this particular case. Its obvious to someone who reads and understands what he is reading isnt it? Maybe you should stick to one terminology when referring to ECM ships pal, as for me personally a ewar ship is a much broader reference than just falcons and ecm bonused ships. Originally by: Deva Blackfire As for emo part - i have no clue what you are talking about. Googling for "emo" gives me pictures of some gay/homosexual looking people. Really when i google "emo" it gives me this: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22emo%22&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3DVFA_enGB240GB243&aq=t Maybe its your past use of the search engine and personal preferences that are swaying the results towards a personal inclination of yours?.
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2008.12.24 14:15:00 - [88] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 24/12/2008 14:15:28 Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 24/12/2008 14:13:44 Originally by: Deva Blackfire If you were following what i said in this thread (i sure do hope you read everything instead of jumping straight to last page) you would know i was talking only about ECM ships. Thus use of EWar boats was as a synonym to ECM ship in this particular case. Its obvious to someone who reads and understands what he is reading isnt it? Maybe you should stick to one terminology when referring to ECM ships pal, as for me personally a ewar ship is a much broader reference than just falcons and ecm bonused ships.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.24 14:32:00 - [89] Originally by: Deva Blackfire And like i said earlier (actually the post you quoted): in this particular case (this thread!) im referring to ECM as EW because this is what we were discussing here. If you can not understand this there is not much i can do to help you. Does that mean that arazus are "damp ships" and are also "ewar ships" (although not ECM/ewar ships???)as they did get a mention in a post of mine earlier?. I would suggest you stick to "ECM ships" in regards to blackbirds, falcons, ect ect......and use "ewar ships" as a generalization when referring to any ship of any race with a bonus to ewar systems/modules, it will be considerably less confusing.

CCP Fallout	Posted - 2008.12.24 14:33:00 - [90] the devolution of this thread has no resulted in it being locked. please do not reopen the thread, and please... don't troll. thanks! Fallout Associate Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online


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