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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2009.01.16 18:13:00 -
[151]
Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 16/01/2009 18:13:03 ah another one ... there's at least one in GD and one in S&M ... not to forget the 2-3 fix ideas in F&I ...
--- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |
Vilidra
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Posted - 2009.01.16 20:19:00 -
[152]
Q: If you are AFK and undocked shoudl everyone not run teh risk of being blown up?
Why is it that the only ones that have to accept the risk of being in 0.0 ar eteh miners and other easy pickings?
And so what if every fleet from now on woudl have an anti-cloaker role in it. Great, adds some diversity, yet another role and brings it yet cloaser to the closest thing currently available to us and that is teh ASW role in current surface flets.
Realism only counts so long as it's not affecting the wolves in the hen house I spose.
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Niskin
Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
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Posted - 2009.01.16 21:26:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Vilidra Why is it that the only ones that have to accept the risk of being in 0.0 ar eteh miners and other easy pickings?
A well organized corp won't leave their miners out in the cold to fend for themselves, that is the point here. If people want that POS to be there the next time they warp to it, maybe they should spend some time on overwatch for the miners who harvest the fuel. Or if they want ships built at home instead of hauling from Jita it's the same thing. The point of being in a corp is to work together to achieve a common goal. If people don't work together then they will never reach the goal. I call that working as intended... ------------- I am the n00b that time forgot. |
Vilidra
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Posted - 2009.01.16 23:26:00 -
[154]
Edited by: Vilidra on 16/01/2009 23:31:55 And our point is that AFK play shouldn't be encouraged as it is via the invulnerability afforded by a cloaking device.
And before you regurgitate "What's teh difference if he's docked or cloaked"... We can watch for him to undock.
And seriously if there was probe with a 3 minute scan time on it, if you were at teh keys you could still avoid being found if you kept on the move. |
Sedious Bloke
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Posted - 2009.01.17 10:26:00 -
[155]
Edited by: Sedious Bloke on 17/01/2009 10:48:08 If they aren't at their computer then they aren't doing anything. What you are really *****ing about is stealth ships evading your fighters and popping your mining ships. It's called hit and run and it's the only reason stealth ships are in the game to start with. If you can't kill a couple of ships then the problem isn't the game the problem is you guys suck.
Yes they zip off when trouble comes, yes they hit and run it's what stealth ships were built for. If two or three ships have your entire corp shaking in their boots you might want to rethink being out there.
One more time just for you If a few people afk cloaked in ships can bring your entire corp to a grinding hault you have much bigger problems than cloaking mechanics to worry about. What happens when someone with real ships shows up? You going to come whine about them not letting you undock? It's not the game thats the problem here ;)
Pirates In Mie EvE?!?!!! |
Sir Ibex
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Posted - 2009.01.17 15:54:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Napoleon Bismarck Edited by: Napoleon Bismarck on 27/12/2008 15:58:03 Edited by: Napoleon Bismarck on 27/12/2008 15:57:21 Cry me a river. Why don't you protect your 0.0 miners? If you had a good security gang sitting by them, you would quickly find this wasn't an issue, if you don't have the resources to protect a 0.0 mining op, you clearly don't belong there. The LAST thing EVE needs now is another nerf. This is an abuse of cloaking? Are you taking the ****? Seriously, mate, get a grip of yourself.
A harsh reply but this guy is right. I joined many corps in the past that needed miners, but they never bothered to protect their miners or make the whole mining experience in any way pleasant. The philosophy was like this. "You are a miner, we provide 0.0 space for you, so go and mine for us..." Well... Sorry guys, but there are hostiles and rats in the belts! Who is going to tank the belt for me? Who is going to make sure I don't get attacked by hostiles while mining? After all, I am mining FOR THE CORP, not for myself! It makes sense that favorable conditions should be provided for me. Otherwise what's the point of inviting a miner into your corp? |
Niskin
Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
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Posted - 2009.01.19 18:42:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Vilidra Edited by: Vilidra on 16/01/2009 23:31:55 And our point is that AFK play shouldn't be encouraged as it is via the invulnerability afforded by a cloaking device.
And before you regurgitate "What's teh difference if he's docked or cloaked"... We can watch for him to undock.
And seriously if there was probe with a 3 minute scan time on it, if you were at teh keys you could still avoid being found if you kept on the move.
What you are saying: "We can watch for him to undock."
What I am hearing: "Stopping him before he warps to the belt is the only good option."
What I am trying to make you understand: "The best option is being prepared to stop him when he lands at the belt."
The cloak isn't your problem, the guy trying to kill your miners is. Do you really want to post scouts on every gate and have another person scanning for cloakers and also a team camping the station (assuming NPC 0.0)? If all those people were at the belt in a mix of ECM, DPS and tackle it wouldn't matter where the pilot came from. All that would matter is that when he landed at the belt he would have a very bad day. ------------- I am the n00b that time forgot. |
Telryn Rae
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Posted - 2009.01.19 19:42:00 -
[158]
Why is it there are armies of people defending their right to abuse other people because it's how the game was designed but they whine like Babies when someone finds a way to defend themselves. There are plenty of cans to flip, afk autopiloted ships in Hi Sec ext to go around. I'm not sure but I wouldn't think it should be all the big of a deal to have a few targets you have to work a little harder to kill while they fly around helpless in ships waiting to deliver value to people willing and eager to take it from them.
Apparently the Devs added miners to the game as content for griefers and their ilk. Apparently now they've added Covert opps in order to frustrate the Griefers ext. I'd say it's basicly a vicious circle that rotates around the Griefer and his or her ilk.
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Shadow Vincentius
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Posted - 2009.01.19 20:23:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Every Carebear In Eve
Waaa
Waaaaaaa
Waaaaaaaaaaa!!
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Lefevre
Caldari The Glenn Quagmire Finishing School for Young Ladies
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Posted - 2009.01.19 22:10:00 -
[160]
>.>
speed nerf = we cant run from the blobs, so we have to sit and wait for you to stop blobbing. Cloak nerf = Loggin off ftw = less action. and more pro alliance bears - -
Mind controlled by Chode Rizoum Killboard
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Niskin
Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
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Posted - 2009.01.20 15:10:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Telryn Rae Why is it there are armies of people defending their right to abuse other people because it's how the game was designed but they whine like Babies when someone finds a way to defend themselves. There are plenty of cans to flip, afk autopiloted ships in Hi Sec ext to go around. I'm not sure but I wouldn't think it should be all the big of a deal to have a few targets you have to work a little harder to kill while they fly around helpless in ships waiting to deliver value to people willing and eager to take it from them.
Apparently the Devs added miners to the game as content for griefers and their ilk. Apparently now they've added Covert opps in order to frustrate the Griefers ext. I'd say it's basicly a vicious circle that rotates around the Griefer and his or her ilk.
I think you posted in the wrong thread or at least completely missed the point of this one. Nobody is whining about people finding ways to defend themselves. In fact I've spent most of this thread suggesting ways for people to defend themselves. I've been the victim of these kinds of attacks and I've been involved in making these kinds of attacks. I think there is plenty of risk on both sides and that it's decently balanced.
What has happened in this thread is that people have disregarded the suggestions that have been made to use current game mechanics. They think that cloaking needs to be nerfed so they can mine under the "local is clear so it's safe" mentality. That's a high sec mentality and it's not even always true there. Once you go to 0.4 or below the mentality changes to a much simpler one, "if you aren't covering your ass, somebody will be along eventually to shoot it off". All I'm saying is to cover your ass and don't expect CCP to nerf a decently balanced portion of the game because your corp won't protect it's miners. |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2009.01.20 16:13:00 -
[162]
Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 20/01/2009 16:13:05
Originally by: Niskin
Originally by: Vilidra Edited by: Vilidra on 16/01/2009 23:31:55 And our point is that AFK play shouldn't be encouraged as it is via the invulnerability afforded by a cloaking device.
And before you regurgitate "What's teh difference if he's docked or cloaked"... We can watch for him to undock.
And seriously if there was probe with a 3 minute scan time on it, if you were at teh keys you could still avoid being found if you kept on the move.
What you are saying: "We can watch for him to undock."
What I am hearing: "Stopping him before he warps to the belt is the only good option."
What I am trying to make you understand: "The best option is being prepared to stop him when he lands at the belt."
The cloak isn't your problem, the guy trying to kill your miners is. Do you really want to post scouts on every gate and have another person scanning for cloakers and also a team camping the station (assuming NPC 0.0)? If all those people were at the belt in a mix of ECM, DPS and tackle it wouldn't matter where the pilot came from. All that would matter is that when he landed at the belt he would have a very bad day.
Gandalf voice: So Be It ! |
Bethor Invictus
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Posted - 2009.01.21 11:39:00 -
[163]
Just wondering,
If you could somehow track down a cloaked ship. Wouldnt that actually defeat the purpose of the cloak. As the purpose of the cloak is that you cant be tracked.
Personally when ratting low sec i tend to cloak my ship when i have to go afk. Reasons why i have to go afk are for example that my daughter is crying.
since i want to limit the risk of beeing shot to little pieces while undocking from a station, dockin in a station isnt really something i want to do when i go afk (since i wont know what happend in the time i was afk)
That a side effect of my beeing afk cloaked (and thus no treat whatsoever, couse i am afk, if i wasnt afk and cloaked i could be a potential thread but this topic is about afk cloaked ships) that some miner might be really really scared, that is not really my problem is it.
So actually same goes for the situation described here. If the cloaked ship is afk, than well he is afk and he cant harm anyone.
So the only actual person who can kill someone is someone who isnt afk. The afk cloaked pilot cant kill anyone. Even if he spooks you while you are mining ratting or dooing whatever.
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Navicerts
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Posted - 2009.01.21 14:44:00 -
[164]
Edited by: Navicerts on 21/01/2009 14:44:42
Originally by: Delks My Corp bases it's operations in (0.0). We have 2 POSs and primarily mine, secondarily rat. Over the past few months hostiles sit in the zone cloaked. They will not engage fighters, only miners.
Now, I understand and fully agree with these tactics and I have no problem with fighters engaging the mining operation of opposing Corps/Alliances. This makes perfect sense.
My problem is that they can sit cloaked in this system and there is absolutely no way we can track them down. They are able to hamper, if not completely disrupt our mining operations while they aren't even playing the game. They sit claoked in this system for HOURS on end. They're not playing, just using their presence to disrupt mining and there's absolutely no counter. To me, this is an abuse of cloaking. Cloaking is a stealthy way to move around, sneak up on a foe, or evade persuers. It should NOT be able to be used as a weapon to wield while you are not even at the computer.
We really need a way to reduce this problem. Idle time limits or interaction with your cloaking device to maintain cloak could be used, but both have easy workarounds. I would like to see a method to actually scan and track down cloakers. They can make it expensive, skill intensive, and very time intensive, but there needs to be a way. It's really unfair that someone can restrict my ability to play when they are not even at their computers.
I would go the other direction... I think people should be allowed to turn on and off their avatar in the "local channel". In a sense, this would solve your problem...
"I would like to see a method to actually scan and track down cloakers."
This doesn't seem to me like an unreasonable request, but it would be difficult to implement with out totally nerfing cloaking unless you have a suggestion. |
AleRiperKilt
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Posted - 2009.01.21 17:27:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk I don't know the exact criteria and CCP probably doesn't want us to know - but I have multiple accounts and if I don't pay attention to them all - they usually get logged out on me. When that guy gets logged out - his screen won't show that he is logged out but he will disappear from local.
Yeah, mine started doing that after QR 1.1 patch. Pretty annoying since I leave my research alt afk cloaked scouting incoming hostiles.
I found out that joining a high traffic channel such as eve radio takes care of it, thought. --- "I live in Los Angeles, where driving is non-consensual pvp" - Arric Rohr |
Tchulen
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Posted - 2009.01.22 18:10:00 -
[166]
IÆve read 5 out of the pages from this thread and the last 2 or so pages were just repetition of the same arguments for and against nerfing cloaks (and yes, altering the way that cloaks work to the detriment of those that use them is a nerf, whatever mechanic you use) and IÆve got to say, grow some b***s. My corp is a carebear corp in high sec. IÆve gone solo into 0.0, predominantly to mine. I donÆt have a corp or alliance to back me up (well, our corp is in an alliance but theyÆre mainly German speaking and I donÆt get any support from corp or alliance) but still make my way in 0.0. If any of you can check kills, this is my main and youÆll see I have none, yes, thatÆs correct, ZERO. However, IÆve been killed a whole lot.
I love 0.0. ItÆs blinkinÆ dangerous and I wouldnÆt have it any other way. When I manage to do a successful mining op and get the ore back to a station I whoop for joy and that last couple of systems to the nearest station my heartÆs going like the clappers. Losing the hauler full of lovely ore is almost as much fun as getting it through as whatever happens it makes my pulse race and all those lovely brain juices flow.
Cloaks work. In my opinion EvE has the least number of serious issues of any MMO IÆve played and is definitely the most engaging due to the danger, most of which (as previously mentioned) is imaginary. ItÆs RPing, itÆs fun and as several people have mentioned; itÆs the game we play.
For every combat module there is a counter and for every tactic there is a counter tactic. If people stopped trying to find fault and actually used their brains to come up with counters to the attack/grief tactics youÆd be having as much fun in 0.0 as IÆm having.
Sorry for the wall of text and this is merely an opinion, not absolute truth.
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Solomunio Kzenig
Amarr SPORADIC MOVEMENT FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2009.01.22 20:39:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Napoleon Bismarck Edited by: Napoleon Bismarck on 27/12/2008 15:58:03 Edited by: Napoleon Bismarck on 27/12/2008 15:57:21 Cry me a river. Why don't you protect your 0.0 miners? If you had a good security gang sitting by them, you would quickly find this wasn't an issue, if you don't have the resources to protect a 0.0 mining op, you clearly don't belong there. The LAST thing EVE needs now is another nerf. This is an abuse of cloaking? Are you taking the ****? Seriously, mate, get a grip of yourself.
^^ This. No need for any more discussion etc. |
permion
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Posted - 2009.01.22 21:20:00 -
[168]
Lets make a POS module that can dectect cloakers.
If you truely own the system then you have a counter to the dreaded cloak. This also means you either keep the module up for 23/7 and cost fuel or you wait 10 mins. To make it even less powerful make it so that every pilot in the system recieves a notification that the module was activated(after all we're talking about insanely powerful whatever being sent out to dectect stuff).
If you want to cloak in the system you have a counter via killing the module.
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Niskin
Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
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Posted - 2009.01.23 17:26:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Solomunio Kzenig
Originally by: Napoleon Bismarck Edited by: Napoleon Bismarck on 27/12/2008 15:58:03 Edited by: Napoleon Bismarck on 27/12/2008 15:57:21 Cry me a river. Why don't you protect your 0.0 miners? If you had a good security gang sitting by them, you would quickly find this wasn't an issue, if you don't have the resources to protect a 0.0 mining op, you clearly don't belong there. The LAST thing EVE needs now is another nerf. This is an abuse of cloaking? Are you taking the ****? Seriously, mate, get a grip of yourself.
^^ This. No need for any more discussion etc.
I agree, however I was trying to put it less bluntly. Since that didn't work so well in this thread I'll just give up and go with the direct approach. :) ------------- I am the n00b that time forgot. |
Metalcali
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.23 18:33:00 -
[170]
Let's recap really fast. A cloaked ship has two options, sit somewhere cloaked not doing anything or uncloak and attack something. Seeing as if he is cloaked he can't do anything but watch, go afk, etc. and if he attacks you have the chance to fight back. Sounds like you don't want to fight back when he does decide to make a move. Seeing as you are in 0.0, you should expect this and realize that cloaking is good as is. |
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente Noir.
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Posted - 2009.01.23 18:44:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Napoleon Bismarck Edited by: Napoleon Bismarck on 27/12/2008 15:58:03 Edited by: Napoleon Bismarck on 27/12/2008 15:57:21 Cry me a river. Why don't you protect your 0.0 miners? If you had a good security gang sitting by them, you would quickly find this wasn't an issue, if you don't have the resources to protect a 0.0 mining op, you clearly don't belong there. The LAST thing EVE needs now is another nerf. This is an abuse of cloaking? Are you taking the ****? Seriously, mate, get a grip of yourself.
This god damnit. Stupid ***gots, if you can't protect your miners getting the good stuff, you don't deserve getting any of it. |
Xzar Fyrarr
Minmatar Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2009.01.23 21:04:00 -
[172]
My Corp bases it's operations in (0.0). ^ Is this the problem? Can't defend against people attacking miners, then you don't have the proper defense procedures, imo. How will you defend against people who fight without cloaks?
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Xarkon
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Posted - 2009.01.24 00:19:00 -
[173]
Edited by: Xarkon on 24/01/2009 00:21:46 6 pages of posts and most still don't get that CCP fixed the cloaking issue the day they launched the game? (Was there even cloaking back then? If not, then CCP fixed the cloaking issue even before they invented cloaking). I think we should all give CCP a hearty applause for foresight on this one to fix a "bug" before it even became a bug. Impressive. The fix is known as ships that can mount guns and missiles. On any typical day, there are at least 10,000 of these available online. Are people that play this game in any system 0.4 and less truly that unintuitive to not be capable of putting 2 and 2 together? And we rip on people that play Warcraft as being stupid. |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.01.24 00:30:00 -
[174]
I believe that local chat nerf would solve the AFK cloaking issue.
Local chat nerf would of course come with some kind of boost to active scanning. But the main thing is that people won't be stressing over some unknown face in local chat - simply cause they won't see it and it won't see them.
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Darwin Duck
A Quest Millitia
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Posted - 2009.01.24 03:17:00 -
[175]
Perhaps its this guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns9oAGnK9CU
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Schalac
Caldari Apocalypse Reign
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Posted - 2009.01.24 05:57:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Delks My Corp bases it's operations in (0.0). We have 2 POSs and primarily mine, secondarily rat. Over the past few months hostiles sit in the zone cloaked. They will not engage fighters, only miners.
Now, I understand and fully agree with these tactics and I have no problem with fighters engaging the mining operation of opposing Corps/Alliances. This makes perfect sense.
My problem is that they can sit cloaked in this system and there is absolutely no way we can track them down. They are able to hamper, if not completely disrupt our mining operations while they aren't even playing the game. They sit claoked in this system for HOURS on end. They're not playing, just using their presence to disrupt mining and there's absolutely no counter. To me, this is an abuse of cloaking. Cloaking is a stealthy way to move around, sneak up on a foe, or evade persuers. It should NOT be able to be used as a weapon to wield while you are not even at the computer.
We really need a way to reduce this problem. Idle time limits or interaction with your cloaking device to maintain cloak could be used, but both have easy workarounds. I would like to see a method to actually scan and track down cloakers. They can make it expensive, skill intensive, and very time intensive, but there needs to be a way. It's really unfair that someone can restrict my ability to play when they are not even at their computers.
Maybe try bringing in a support fleet of tackle/DPS and then when you mine and the target attacks his prey you kill him.
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Lokia Enroch
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Posted - 2009.01.24 15:48:00 -
[177]
So basically, one guy afk gets to safely make it a requirement that any miner have at lest one other ship doing nothing but running overwatch, lest that miner run the risk of losing his ship once the afk cloaker come back to his keyboard.
And I have to laugh at all the people that are saying "If hes afk hes not hurting anything" because only the people that do nothing but push f1-f8 for their game would assume anyone knows hes afk. The people that state that "If hes cloaked his not hurting anything" miss the point that you can scan while cloaked take your 30 seconds sensor re-calculate time while aligning and warping to your lone target. Its not like a smart person would be sitting right in a belt waiting, lol.
Replace the phrase "AFK cloaked" with "Unseen Hostile" Its the same complaint.
Although to be honest, probes won't counter it. Why? Because all they have to do is move really really fast in a direction not aligned with anything. Heck an inty doing 5km/s is about impossible to catch and you can already scan those down.
So in reality, roaming gangs, Rats, and the like ALREADY require an over watch. So whats the point in worrying about it. |
Shaka Quatuic
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Posted - 2009.01.25 00:26:00 -
[178]
Edited by: Shaka Quatuic on 25/01/2009 00:35:01 Edited by: Shaka Quatuic on 25/01/2009 00:32:53 Edited by: Shaka Quatuic on 25/01/2009 00:28:48 Edited by: Shaka Quatuic on 25/01/2009 00:26:23 most of the arguments here are not taking onto account another possibility...
there needs to be a probe (preferably a standard Grav probe) that can locate the non-covops cloaks. 'Why?' you ask...
cloaked ships are to eve what submarines (of the WW2 variety) are to RL history. even modern day SSNs are not invulnerable to detection, and they spend every moment at sea doing their damndest to NOT be detected - a far cry from the non-existent level of involvement a cloaker in eve has to have to remain invisible when off-grid.
all the players who want a means to at least get on the same grid as a cloaker they are hunting have the same aim: to make the cloaker actually have to make an effort to stay hidden until he chooses to do otherwise. if the cloaker is afk, or otherwise incompetent at doing the job he is performing, he should incur a risk of being discovered - just like the submariners of old who had to make a serious effort to not make any noise lest a destroyer with a decent sonarman at the headphones hear them and get a bearing for the depthcharges to be dropped on. if there is nobody around to hunt the cloaker/submarine, then and only then can the player/crew relax.
it is all about equalizing the level of effort a cloaker has vs those who arent cloaked, and giving those who might want to hunt those who cloak a means to do so without using passive baiting tactics. do you guys have any clue how many grav quests it would take to cover a system for the purpose of hunting a cloaked HAS or BS? let me tell you - it would take many more than it would to explore for a grav belt, as the prober would have to place probes in interplanetary space in an effort to cover all the possible safespots. it would be alot like a modern ASW helicopter or P-3 Orion dropping hundreds of sonobouys. it takes time, skill, and makes no guarantees of success if the cloaker is actually doing his due diligence of actively trying to NOT be found.
I am speaking as a dedicated cloaker here BTW... I fly all the minmatar T2 cloakers and in the past have run 50+ man gatecamps in prototype fitted cruisers - for me there is no greater sense of accomplishment in this game than crawling my way through such a net, and in fact I find the prospect of being actively hunted even when I am out in the middle of nowhere cloaked at a safespot to be a highly appealing challenge.
all you afk cloakers and other 'dont nerf my cloak' people just want your 'I PWN by being lazy' buttons left alone. pathetic.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.25 01:34:00 -
[179]
Edited by: Goumindong on 25/01/2009 01:36:16
Originally by: Schalac
Maybe try bringing in a support fleet of tackle/DPS and then when you mine and the target attacks his prey you kill him.
This is a great idea, we can have 3-5 guys sitting ready constantly in space aligned to the mining gang while the mining gang is mining...
Because those 3-5 guys couldn't be mining themselves?
The entire outfit, if relatively small, could up and move to empire and make more profits because its never profitable to protect mining ops in that way. Especially since its so easy to kill miners, haulers, and their cans that anyone over 1-2 guys is likely to do his damage before you can land and lock.
It really does produce undue costs on 0.0 individual(and corp based) production.
Originally by: Shaka Quatuic
cloaked ships are to eve what submarines (of the WW2 variety) are to RL history.
Eve is a game, stop bringing stupid real life comparisons in. |
Shaka Quatuic
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Posted - 2009.01.25 02:06:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 25/01/2009 01:36:16
Originally by: Shaka Quatuic
cloaked ships are to eve what submarines (of the WW2 variety) are to RL history.
Eve is a game, stop bringing stupid real life comparisons in.
you make me laugh... that argument is even more pathetic than wanting to keep the 'I PWN through laziness' button known as the cloak unchanged just because you like them that way. you are going to have to do much better than that - perhaps by elaborating on exactly why my comparison is not applicable in proper detail...
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