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Kyr Evotorin
Psycho Tech Industries Interstellar Hobos
6
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Posted - 2012.04.14 16:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, I've read a fair amount about the economic noms... and one particular subject continually has me asking the question, "You're joking right?"
On a few occasions in the devblog threads and some here in market discussion, I've witnessed people complaining (or even just mentioning) about the exhumer prices, and how they will drive people to use lesser mining ships to get the job done.
This is me hoping I'm just wrong, because, should I be correct, there would be a lot of misleading posts about this.
Prices of ships go up with mineral prices. with mineral prices rising, one can make more ISK/h(Assuming you are a miner). With more ISK/h, one could afford the more expensive ship hull that is caused due to the increased mineral prices. Basically, I'm saying the prices should actually not be, in any way, negatively affecting (effect?) miners. This is just me thinking generally. I have no real math to back it up, but even if I'm wrong about pricing of the ships, I should be right, because profit per hour is watched by certain people and this would change the amount of ships in production, thus balancing the hulk's pricing from time to time.
So, I'm thinking that the only thing that contributes to a Miner's actual losses is their incapability to stay safe. The current economy can only really affect (e?) their positive wallets. Those who can't stay safe probably deserve to believe their exhumers aren't worth the ISK... right?
Past: A loss of a hulk - (Rough math) 200m... isk/h of veld - ~80 Few days back: Lost Hulk - ~320m... isk/h of veld - ~180
(At work, can't really contribute decent numbers of minerals, t2 components, etc. apologies.) |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
568
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Posted - 2012.04.14 17:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
You have to factor in the fact that mining is hostile to attention. It's not just the inability of miners to super-tank the ships or staying glued to the screen 23/7, but the completely bland and boring mechanic that works against them.
A selected elite (those posting on the forums, mostly ) say they spam directional scan, use 32K EHP ships and so on and only in a RR + Orca fleet.
All the remaining 99% don't give a crap, max cargo expand, puts enough cheap tank to deal with rats while not enticing gankers to pick them (gankers will prefer the T2+ fitted miner for the drops pay off) and AFK their way into low wealth. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Kyr Evotorin
Psycho Tech Industries Interstellar Hobos
6
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Posted - 2012.04.14 18:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
well my point is directed towards those on the forums that have complained about the prices. I'm trying to point out (but not entirely sure if it is correct, because it seems obvious to me) that ISK/hour and ship costs are proportionately more helpful to miners than anyone else. increased mineral prices atm don't really help people making set amounts of isk... so with the increased hull prices it hurts everyone except miners. at least the way that I'm looking at it.
I could care less as to whether people are too lazy to mine in a fashionable manner, or eat chips and watch tv... There are people saying it isn't worth buying Hulks because of pricing... I think they're wrong. Whereas, the need to use cheaper pvp fleets sounds more like a legitimate complaint (even considering that I think the pricing bumps are reasonable, removal of many bots and projected 'nerfs' (Which cause buffs to indy) were asked for... and now the players have to deal with the executive decision... No reason to complain if you are getting the best part of an economical change...
Hope that made sense... I'm running 3 hours of sleep per day for the last week... |
Rengerel en Distel
Khanid Research Corporation
40
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Posted - 2012.04.14 19:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
The people complaining about the cost of the hulk are complaining from the view of replacing the hulk repeatedly. The hulk itself doesn't cost that much, until you have to replace it 3 or 4 times a month. The posts i believe you were refering to are people basically saying it makes more sense to fly a covetor, because it's cheaper, and overall, if you get popped a lot, you come out ahead.
Don't assume bad intent, when stupidity is the much more likely cause. |
Kyr Evotorin
Psycho Tech Industries Interstellar Hobos
6
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Posted - 2012.04.14 19:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
I think you missed my point, no offense.
Those people complaining, were complaining about newer prices. proportionally, they are making and losing the same amounts (if they are losing Mining ships*edit*...).
I'm trying to say, miner's shouldn't be affected (e?) by the pricing of Mining Ships*edit* today in comparison to beforehand.
What I'm NOT trying to say is "Hulks are/n't worth the ISK for the amount they are blown up."
Just as replacing other hulls like covetors.... they are proportionally replacing the same amount if their income is from selling minerals.
I don't have access to math tools from my work computer... but covetors cost more now too. nuff said. |
Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
482
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Posted - 2012.04.14 21:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
you make 180mil an hour in a hulk? mining veld? |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
868
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Posted - 2012.04.15 01:02:00 -
[7] - Quote
ISK/m3 of Veld is 30 x Tritanium price. So it's about 160-180 ISK/m3 right now. Solo hulk mines 80-95k m3/hr depending on skills and how efficient you are at mining alone.
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Tay Silvermoon
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
0
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Posted - 2012.04.15 05:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
You can mine around 7 can's of veldspar in an hour in 1 hulk, each can currently has a value of around 5 mil ~ so 35 mil an hour mining veldspar would be a good turn around. (Cerlestes Ore Chart/ That's uninterrupted mining. A new hulk is running 300/350 mil atm (not counting fittings). |
Kyr Evotorin
Psycho Tech Industries Interstellar Hobos
7
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Posted - 2012.04.15 06:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
Herping yourDerp wrote:you make 180mil an hour in a hulk? mining veld?
a. You don't seem to care about the goal here... I'm trying to gain confirmation / make people more aware about this. People have been confusingly complaining about this specific issue.
b. the numbers weren't in millions of isk/h. obviously. go grab a calculator, instead of reading 1/3rd of someone's post and making comments that contribute very little, and can be interpreted in multitudes of ways.
Tay Silvermoon wrote:You can mine around 7 can's of veldspar in an hour in 1 hulk, each can currently has a value of around 5 mil ~ so 35 mil an hour mining veldspar would be a good turn around. (Cerlestes Ore Chart/ That's uninterrupted mining. A new hulk is running 300/350 mil atm (not counting fittings).
Expanding upon this - 2 months ago, this would be ~half the value ISK-wise. (~20 million an hour) But also, 2 months ago, the price to replace a hulk was also only 190-210 million.
So... with cheap, inefficient math, the 4th grade version: 315m GÇóGÇóGÇóGÇó 200m --------- = --------- 35m/h GÇóGÇóGÇóGÇó 20m/h
315m/35m/h=9 hours to replace 200m/20m/h=10 hours to replace
Lol. it takes, approximately 9 hours to replace your hulks now. whereas, 2 months ago, it took approximately 10 hours. Miners have absolutely no reason to complain at all about the current market changes. This is all subject to whether or not I'm missing something.
GÇóThe main reason I think this is the case is because minerals are more expensive and the T2 components to make the hull aren't really changing much in price. So it all seems valid to me. |
qDoctor Strangelove
Beware of the Red Fox
8
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Posted - 2012.04.15 13:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
1 HULK used to cost the same as 4 PLEX. Now you get 2 HULK for 1 PLEX
There is nothing wrong with the price of HULKS, but it should probably go up somewhat to around 400Mill, as I expect that is were PLEX is heading |
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Mookie Quantico
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
19
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Posted - 2012.04.15 15:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
All the bitching... and HULKAGEDDON hasn't even started yet...
Afraid you'll get ganked ? Use a damn Covetor for awhile... 10-15% the cost of a Hulk, and really, you'll be just as bored -- which is the real issue, but hey, that's "risk versus reward".
Mook |
Kyr Evotorin
Psycho Tech Industries Interstellar Hobos
7
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Posted - 2012.04.15 20:29:00 -
[12] - Quote
qDoctor, the price of plex doesn't matter in correlation to what I'm talking about at all. please read before commenting.
Mookie, do you even know what this topic is about? There is no mention of hulkageddon here. I'm merely constructing information publicly to try to make sure I'm not incorrect. The standard amount of high sec ganking is what is reference. Sure, hulkageddon could be brought up, but I really just care about making sure people understand that, economically, miners are in the green light, if there ever was one.
I mean, I get it. You're an idiot. You don't need to represent that in a thread you're not willing to read. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3343
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Posted - 2012.04.15 22:33:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kyr Evotorin wrote: Lol. it takes, approximately 9 hours to replace your hulks now. whereas, 2 months ago, it took approximately 10 hours. Miners have absolutely no reason to complain at all about the current market changes.
Let me explain something to you about EVE players by way of an analogy:
Imagine you were a powerful wizard, kind and wise, able to change reality, and you saw a lowly convenience store clerk, working at minimum wage to pay the rent on his horrible bed-sit apartment. You decide to make him King Of The Fairey World, and magic him away to a palace made of white marble and gold, full of beauty and wealth.
If the clerk immediately complains that you cost him his clerk job and his apartment, then you know you've just found an EVE player. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Ildryn
The Inf1dels GIANTSBANE.
45
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Posted - 2012.04.15 23:10:00 -
[14] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Kyr Evotorin wrote: Lol. it takes, approximately 9 hours to replace your hulks now. whereas, 2 months ago, it took approximately 10 hours. Miners have absolutely no reason to complain at all about the current market changes.
Let me explain something to you about EVE players by way of an analogy: Imagine you were a powerful wizard, kind and wise, able to change reality, and you saw a lowly convenience store clerk, working at minimum wage to pay the rent on his horrible bed-sit apartment. You decide to make him King Of The Fairey World, and magic him away to a palace made of white marble and gold, full of beauty and wealth. If the clerk immediately complains that you cost him his clerk job and his apartment, then you know you've just found an EVE player.
^^ QFT |
Dr Silkworth
Two Geezers in Space
13
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Posted - 2012.04.16 03:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
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Breezly Brewin
World's Best Dad
0
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Posted - 2012.04.16 08:55:00 -
[16] - Quote
I gladly sold my 2 Hulks and now fly 2 Covetors. Got me a plex and feel rather confident in that the current increase in exhumer prices is a temporary speculative deal and when they go back down i will just by new hulks. I actually think the 50M loss of a covetor far outweighs the 350m loss of a hulk for the time being, especially for a player that doesn't always give his mining op 100% attention. Here is a miner that actually enjoyed the increase as it allowed me to sell my hulks for a much needed plex! Now i'm sitting pretty in covetors and could give a flying crap about gankers. Full Stabbed/Tanked my Orca tho. |
Mookie Quantico
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2012.04.16 12:38:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kyr Evotorin wrote:
I mean, I get it. You're an idiot. You don't need to represent that in a thread you're not willing to read.
Oh, get over yourself muffykins... you might even have fun.
Mook
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Kyr Evotorin
Psycho Tech Industries Interstellar Hobos
8
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Posted - 2012.04.16 13:53:00 -
[18] - Quote
Yes, mook, What matters here is that YOU think you're cool. not the information given in a forum for information. trolling is hard. being mildly intelligent is easy. |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
197
|
Posted - 2012.04.16 14:28:00 -
[19] - Quote
Breezly Brewin wrote:I gladly sold my 2 Hulks and now fly 2 Covetors. Got me a plex and feel rather confident in that the current increase in exhumer prices is a temporary speculative deal and when they go back down i will just by new hulks. I actually think the 50M loss of a covetor far outweighs the 350m loss of a hulk for the time being, especially for a player that doesn't always give his mining op 100% attention. Here is a miner that actually enjoyed the increase as it allowed me to sell my hulks for a much needed plex! Now i'm sitting pretty in covetors and could give a flying crap about gankers. Full Stabbed/Tanked my Orca tho.
Smart carebears FTW!
Though I don't think anyone bothers going after an Orca. Trying to break a +200k EHP tank is not easy. http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Tobiaz/sig_complaints.gif
How about fixing image-linking on the forums, CCP? I want to see signatures! |
Dirk Decibel
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
24
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Posted - 2012.04.16 17:01:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tobiaz wrote:Breezly Brewin wrote:I gladly sold my 2 Hulks and now fly 2 Covetors. Got me a plex and feel rather confident in that the current increase in exhumer prices is a temporary speculative deal and when they go back down i will just by new hulks. I actually think the 50M loss of a covetor far outweighs the 350m loss of a hulk for the time being, especially for a player that doesn't always give his mining op 100% attention. Here is a miner that actually enjoyed the increase as it allowed me to sell my hulks for a much needed plex! Now i'm sitting pretty in covetors and could give a flying crap about gankers. Full Stabbed/Tanked my Orca tho. Smart carebears FTW! Though I don't think anyone bothers going after an Orca. Trying to break a +200k EHP tank is not easy. They bother during Hulkageddon they do. Specially the non/poorly tanked orca's can expect their share of attention. |
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Kairos Antilles
United Systems Nautical Service
12
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Posted - 2012.04.16 19:54:00 -
[21] - Quote
Kyr Evotorin wrote: 315m/35m/h=9 hours to replace 200m/20m/h=10 hours to replace
Lol. it takes, approximately 9 hours to replace your hulks now. whereas, 2 months ago, it took approximately 10 hours. Miners have absolutely no reason to complain at all about the current market changes. This is all subject to whether or not I'm missing something.
Missing one important point: Hulks are becoming increasingly popular gank targets. One hour less to replace a Hulk is meaningless when the frequency of replacement nullifies the time savings per Hulk.
Oversimplification for illustration: "Last month, I spent 20 hours replacing two Hulks that got popped. This month, with higher mineral prices meaning quicker replacement, I spent 36 hours replacing four Hulks that got popped. Somehow, I'm not happier spending 16 more hours mining to replace blown up ships, no matter how much less per ship it requires."
Catch my drift? |
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
559
|
Posted - 2012.04.16 22:19:00 -
[22] - Quote
Reduce all mining frigates, mining cruisers, Barges, and Exhumers into slag. And don't forget, the party never ends so continue hulkageddon until the end of the year!
Problem solved, every mining vessel will raise in price. They won't even want to mine, because covetor / rettys are even cheaper to destroyer then a hulk you will always win! |
Jorma Amatin
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.17 01:17:00 -
[23] - Quote
I have to admit that covetors while cheaper are far easier to kill than a hulk. So whereas a hulk can attempt to tank, a covetor pretty much has to just die in a glorious blaze. |
Ned Black
Driders
13
|
Posted - 2012.04.17 06:04:00 -
[24] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Kyr Evotorin wrote: Lol. it takes, approximately 9 hours to replace your hulks now. whereas, 2 months ago, it took approximately 10 hours. Miners have absolutely no reason to complain at all about the current market changes.
Let me explain something to you about EVE players by way of an analogy: Imagine you were a powerful wizard, kind and wise, able to change reality, and you saw a lowly convenience store clerk, working at minimum wage to pay the rent on his horrible bed-sit apartment. You decide to make him King Of The Fairey World, and magic him away to a palace made of white marble and gold, full of beauty and wealth. If the clerk immediately complains that you cost him his clerk job and his apartment, then you know you've just found an EVE player.
Naa, your analogy is limping a bit.
You forgot about the gazillion warlocks out there that loves nothing better than to blow that marble and gold palace up... and because the wizard had made a crappy job out of it and that so called castle out of painted wet cardboard and tin foil could come with $1 kitchen knife to bring it down.
So now you have a clerk without a job, and no castle... which of course is a bonus to the warlocks for their bravery of destroying an expensive wet paper bag for they knew that they would lose the kitchen knife in the process... when they saw the clerks sad eyes they laughed told him to suck it up because it was a hostile kingdom.
If that wizard would have made that castle out of good solid rocks as it should have been, the warlocks would have actually had to pay a lot of gold and work hard to bring that castle down... and to the warlocks that would be unacceptable with a flood of tears as a result.
The end |
Nomad I
University of Caille Gallente Federation
59
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Posted - 2012.04.17 08:57:00 -
[25] - Quote
A production of a hulk from ground cost something about 230million. A hulk not fittet for maximum output is a waste of ISK. So basically a Hulk in empire is meaningless.
Ganking hulks in Empire will buff the 0.0 Thank you wanabee pirates You will grief until my concurrents in Empire are extinguisht. Mining will be like before 2006, when a miner in 0.0 was generating 1b per day in his pocket. Now the trend is showing upwards. It should be possible soon to mine with one Hulk 2b per day.
In the end, it's destroying the game, because the income from missioning, ratting etc. is not raising. Poeple don't take the risk of PVP. |
Kyr Evotorin
Psycho Tech Industries Interstellar Hobos
9
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Posted - 2012.04.17 11:40:00 -
[26] - Quote
no challenge for a miner is a game won by default. that's their problem (The miners who complain). I take it as a challenge to not be blown up by tards that think theyre good at the game. |
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