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Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.31 17:45:00 - [31] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Qui Shon Freedom is won with blood, and lost with the stroke of a pen. -Unknown Is an old quote I like. Also, OP has a great sig. I have another one for you: "Those who would give up an Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Thomas Jefferson Franklin, not Jefferson. A very good quote, however. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.12.31 21:01:00 - [32] Originally by: Slade Trillgon Originally by: HankMurphy stuff The thing is that Jefferson was living in a time where the most destructive weapon known to man in the obvious sence was the canon. His idea of destroying a city would have been months if not years of siege followed by a storming, looting, pillaging and burning of the city with heavy casualities on both sides. Today we have weapons of mass destruction capable, and have been used, to level entire cities with the attacker not even having to be anywhere near the attacked. If say for a moment a dictator were to assume power in the US and launch a nuclear missile that wiped out a major city like LA, Chicago or whatever tickles your fancy, in short if he had the power to kill his own citizens by the millions, do you really think you would find people willing to overthrow him? We live in a time where its an army numbering in the thousands, tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands that decides the course of things but who has control over the multi billion dollar weapon system capable of destroying millions of lives in a single shot. -------------------------------- To borrow a phrase: Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2009.01.01 01:55:00 - [33] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Sokratesz "Those who would give up an Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Thomas Jefferson Franklin, not Jefferson. A very good quote, however. They say it's not quite a quote by old Ben either, even though it is usually attributed to him. In any case, I support the sentiment it conveys wholeheartedly. Doesn't matter who came up with it. The time for revolutions in the western world is indeed coming to a close, or so I fear. It's not because of WMD's, those would only be counterproductive for maintaining power for more then a short while (because you create more enemies if you use them, as former allies realize you're a total nutcase that cannot be trusted with power.) No, it's surveillance techonology that will make challenging "the man" impossible, if it has not already done so. A lot of Americans go on about their 2nd amendment, but small arms are useless when your enemy (who will always outgun you if he can find you) has control over information and communication, on a level magnitudes greater then ever before. Growing every day to boot.
Xen Gin Universal Mining Inc Forged Dominion	Posted - 2009.01.01 15:10:00 - [34] It is nigh on impossible for a small organisation to watch the daily activities of everybody. Getting to that precise Orwellian stage would require something like 25-33% of the population watching the rest without living their own lives. ------ Originally by: Rifter Drifter News just in.. Games are a pastime.. not a way of life. If your not enjoying, stop playing, and don't post about it.
Polkageist Minmatar No Limit Productions OWN Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.01 15:13:00 - [35] Originally by: Xen Gin It is nigh on impossible for a small organisation to watch the daily activities of everybody. Getting to that precise Orwellian stage would require something like 25-33% of the population watching the rest without living their own lives. thats why you have computers. And Echelon is no theory...
David Kang	Posted - 2009.01.01 15:28:00 - [36] Edited by: David Kang on 01/01/2009 15:33:56 Edited by: David Kang on 01/01/2009 15:28:36 Originally by: Xen Gin It is nigh on impossible for a small organisation to watch the daily activities of everybody. Getting to that precise Orwellian stage would require something like 25-33% of the population watching the rest without living their own lives. Computers remove the need for people. For an example of this is in London. In the city center of London there are hundreds of CCTV cameras watching all the cars coming in and out of London. Once a car is detected entering the city that has been reported stolen (Number plate resignation) Within minutes you will be pulled up. and that system does not require a human. only a machine relying an order to the police. It wont belong before facial resignation has the same impact. your face has been put onto a large database (you stole some sweets when you was younger). you goto a new different town with your girl friend or wife (lets say you go shopping in Nottingham) During that time a CCTV camera pick you up. Now the database has picked up a known criminal in the town center. The town my opt in to pass this information to all police services. and could see you getting targeted by police or even having an office trail you. Better yet you could be blocked or even denied access to a selection of shops, (Opt in not to serve known criminals)
Xen Gin Universal Mining Inc Forged Dominion	Posted - 2009.01.01 15:49:00 - [37] Originally by: David Kang Edited by: David Kang on 01/01/2009 15:33:56 Edited by: David Kang on 01/01/2009 15:28:36 Originally by: Xen Gin It is nigh on impossible for a small organisation to watch the daily activities of everybody. Getting to that precise Orwellian stage would require something like 25-33% of the population watching the rest without living their own lives. Computers remove the need for people. For an example of this is in London. In the city center of London there are hundreds of CCTV cameras watching all the cars coming in and out of London. Once a car is detected entering the city that has been reported stolen (Number plate resignation) Within minutes you will be pulled up. and that system does not require a human. only a machine relying an order to the police. It wont belong before facial resignation has the same impact. your face has been put onto a large database (you stole some sweets when you was younger). you goto a new different town with your girl friend or wife (lets say you go shopping in Nottingham) During that time a CCTV camera pick you up. Now the database has picked up a known criminal in the town center. The town my opt in to pass this information to all police services. and could see you getting targeted by police or even having an office trail you. Better yet you could be blocked or even denied access to a selection of shops, (Opt in not to serve known criminals) My friend is working on facial recognition for tracking in real time, but the amount of computer power needed, and the need of AI to monitor what everybody in the UK are actually doing (not just where they are) is virtually unobtainable, and not even remotely feasible. Add in the fact that the society is actually little Brother, where unlike spooks, Bourne films, and other spy thrillers, CCTV is not all networked. Most of it is independent shop systems, and the rest is motorway and major shopping centres. It still takes Police and Security services time to going in to those locations and request the recordings. Then there are these databases, that people seem to think are the authorities super weapon of choice. The damned things are never and can never be secured enough to be properly usable nationwide. If a local Policeman can access the data, the system will be viable to attack and infiltration. Of course, if they really were out to get you, everybody and every newborn would have a sub dermal tacking and monitoring implant. That would greet you when you got to a shop and automatically open the door. ------ Originally by: Rifter Drifter News just in.. Games are a pastime.. not a way of life. If your not enjoying, stop playing, and don't post about it.
Polkageist Minmatar No Limit Productions OWN Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.01 16:03:00 - [38] Originally by: Xen Gin Originally by: David Kang Edited by: David Kang on 01/01/2009 15:33:56 Edited by: David Kang on 01/01/2009 15:28:36 Originally by: Xen Gin It is nigh on impossible for a small organisation to watch the daily activities of everybody. Getting to that precise Orwellian stage would require something like 25-33% of the population watching the rest without living their own lives. Computers remove the need for people. For an example of this is in London. In the city center of London there are hundreds of CCTV cameras watching all the cars coming in and out of London. Once a car is detected entering the city that has been reported stolen (Number plate resignation) Within minutes you will be pulled up. and that system does not require a human. only a machine relying an order to the police. It wont belong before facial resignation has the same impact. your face has been put onto a large database (you stole some sweets when you was younger). you goto a new different town with your girl friend or wife (lets say you go shopping in Nottingham) During that time a CCTV camera pick you up. Now the database has picked up a known criminal in the town center. The town my opt in to pass this information to all police services. and could see you getting targeted by police or even having an office trail you. Better yet you could be blocked or even denied access to a selection of shops, (Opt in not to serve known criminals) My friend is working on facial recognition for tracking in real time, but the amount of computer power needed, and the need of AI to monitor what everybody in the UK are actually doing (not just where they are) is virtually unobtainable, and not even remotely feasible. Add in the fact that the society is actually little Brother, where unlike spooks, Bourne films, and other spy thrillers, CCTV is not all networked. Most of it is independent shop systems, and the rest is motorway and major shopping centres. It still takes Police and Security services time to going in to those locations and request the recordings. Then there are these databases, that people seem to think are the authorities super weapon of choice. The damned things are never and can never be secured enough to be properly usable nationwide. If a local Policeman can access the data, the system will be viable to attack and infiltration. Of course, if they really were out to get you, everybody and every newborn would have a sub dermal tacking and monitoring implant. That would greet you when you got to a shop and automatically open the door. power doesn't care how long it takes! Everything happens in increments. False flag attacks must be great to speed up such processes as the people brought down the path of "fear" will demand the false "protection".
Xen Gin Universal Mining Inc Forged Dominion	Posted - 2009.01.01 16:19:00 - [39] Originally by: Polkageist power doesn't care how long it takes! Everything happens in increments. False flag attacks must be great to speed up such processes as the people brought down the path of "fear" will demand the false "protection". Power does need money though, and it needs enough people to support it's activity and methods. ------ Originally by: Rifter Drifter News just in.. Games are a pastime.. not a way of life. If your not enjoying, stop playing, and don't post about it.
David Kang	Posted - 2009.01.01 16:21:00 - [40] Originally by: Xen Gin Originally by: Polkageist power doesn't care how long it takes! Everything happens in increments. False flag attacks must be great to speed up such processes as the people brought down the path of "fear" will demand the false "protection". Power does need money though, and it needs enough people to support it's activity and methods. are you could just get deeper in debt.
Scoop de'Woop Emino Concepts	Posted - 2009.01.01 16:23:00 - [41] Edited by: Scoop de''Woop on 01/01/2009 16:25:29 Originally by: TimMc snip What would we rebel with? We have no guns, those were taken away a long time ago. If the Labour government has its way, we won't even have knives or pointy objects. The only way I see our government being destroyed is from 1) the military answering the peoples cries 2) Foreign nations responding to the governments harsh responses to ALL of our protests. snip As much as I hate to say it because it is a fictional movie, think V for Vendetta. That movie absolutely inspires me. My favorite line has to be the one that goes something along the line of "The people should not be scared of their government, it is the government that should be scared of its people." On a tangent, look at the US and the government giving money to the automakers even though every poll that I saw said the people didn't want it. These same politicians will be elected to their next term I am sure. Look at Obama's support of the bailout plans while seriously considering cuts to NASA's funding. This is the reason I laughed when I saw people crying and jumping around celebrating when Obama won acting like the US would become this utopia just because he was elected. Edit: Also, he was strongly against retroactive immunity for the telecoms and yet voted for it anyways. <disclaimer>I am not saying McCain would have been any better, but he lost so it doesn't matter. :-D </disclaimer>
Xen Gin Universal Mining Inc Forged Dominion	Posted - 2009.01.01 16:24:00 - [42] Originally by: David Kang Originally by: Xen Gin Originally by: Polkageist power doesn't care how long it takes! Everything happens in increments. False flag attacks must be great to speed up such processes as the people brought down the path of "fear" will demand the false "protection". Power does need money though, and it needs enough people to support it's activity and methods. are you could just get deeper in debt. Why haven't you left England yet? It costs about ú8 to get a plane ticket and leave to France. Surely England is bad enough for you to leave all your possessions you've accumulated there and just leave! ------ Originally by: Rifter Drifter News just in.. Games are a pastime.. not a way of life. If your not enjoying, stop playing, and don't post about it.
David Kang	Posted - 2009.01.01 16:27:00 - [43] Originally by: Xen Gin Originally by: David Kang Originally by: Xen Gin Originally by: Polkageist power doesn't care how long it takes! Everything happens in increments. False flag attacks must be great to speed up such processes as the people brought down the path of "fear" will demand the false "protection". Power does need money though, and it needs enough people to support it's activity and methods. are you could just get deeper in debt. Why haven't you left England yet? It costs about ú8 to get a plane ticket and leave to France. Surely England is bad enough for you to leave all your possessions you've accumulated there and just leave! what!? With the Euro stronger then the pound? are you crazy? it would cost far too much to do anything now, besides i am saving
Xen Gin Universal Mining Inc Forged Dominion	Posted - 2009.01.01 16:31:00 - [44] Originally by: David Kang what!? With the Euro stronger then the pound? are you crazy? it would cost far too much to do anything now, besides i am saving Yes, that's obviously what is keeping you. ------ Originally by: Rifter Drifter News just in.. Games are a pastime.. not a way of life. If your not enjoying, stop playing, and don't post about it.
David Kang	Posted - 2009.01.01 16:45:00 - [45] Originally by: Xen Gin Originally by: David Kang what!? With the Euro stronger then the pound? are you crazy? it would cost far too much to do anything now, besides i am saving Yes, that's obviously what is keeping you. Technically yes, it is
Qui Shon	Posted - 2009.01.01 19:24:00 - [46] Originally by: Xen Gin Of course, if they really were out to get you, everybody and every newborn would have a sub dermal tacking and monitoring implant. That would greet you when you got to a shop and automatically open the door. That'll happen within 50 years for sure, maybe 20. It'll start as voluntary program, or rather, in a way it already has, as I read some snippet of a prototype program already in place. After all, there's lost of pretty nifty "benevolent" applications for that. It's just that, those aren't the only applications. But there's also plans to end anonymous purchasing, by putting rfid chips in all notes, dunno if it'll happen though. "They" are not out to "get me" per se, nor do I think our (yours or mine) politicians want a police state, but they are slowly facilitating at least the possibility/capability of a real concentration of power. Not overt power, though. And the thing with power, as we all know, is not if it will be abused, but when.
Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.01 22:02:00 - [47] Originally by: David Kang it would cost far too much to do anything now, besides i am saving Th eproblem is, that's where you fall into the same trap that everyone else does. Have you not realised in all this time that it is not possible to save money in the UK? You are paid peanuts, you are taxed to death and you spend a fortune just to exist on the essentials. Savings? A penny a week isn't going to get you out very soon. I have already decided what I'm doing. Car to Dover, cross to France and from there to... Wherever but I'll keep going generally South toward warmer climates (I hate the cold). If I decide from there to cross to the USA or somewhere else, so be it. New Mexico, New Delhi, I don't care as long as it's not here. I am single, I have no family and consequently have the freedom to just go. I have enough to keep me for a couple of weeks until I find temporary work so I don't care any more. At 49, I don't give a **** any more if it doesn't pan out but I will die of starvation rather than come back to be the governments slave again, working for their monetary gain. -- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again
David Kang	Posted - 2009.01.01 22:18:00 - [48] Originally by: Dantes Revenge Originally by: David Kang it would cost far too much to do anything now, besides i am saving Th eproblem is, that's where you fall into the same trap that everyone else does. Have you not realised in all this time that it is not possible to save money in the UK? You are paid peanuts, you are taxed to death and you spend a fortune just to exist on the essentials. Savings? A penny a week isn't going to get you out very soon. I have already decided what I'm doing. Car to Dover, cross to France and from there to... Wherever but I'll keep going generally South toward warmer climates (I hate the cold). If I decide from there to cross to the USA or somewhere else, so be it. New Mexico, New Delhi, I don't care as long as it's not here. I am single, I have no family and consequently have the freedom to just go. I have enough to keep me for a couple of weeks until I find temporary work so I don't care any more. At 49, I don't give a ** any more if it doesn't pan out but I will die of starvation rather than come back to be the governments slave again, working for their monetary gain. Welcome to england motherer. Stop moaning because you don't fit in with the Englishman's dream of a drunken ****.
Poreuomai Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.02 11:35:00 - [49] The UK is very slowling drifting into an authocratic state. Have a look at the PACE laws and what they allow the cops to do. Originally by: Xen Gin Of course, if they really were out to get you, everybody and every newborn would have a sub dermal tacking and monitoring implant. That would greet you when you got to a shop and automatically open the door. That has already started, in various forms, partly voluntary in factories, partly enforced via tags for suspected terrorists. *Let My People Go*
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.02 12:04:00 - [50] Edited by: TimMc on 02/01/2009 12:04:58 Originally by: Poreuomai The UK is very slowling drifting into an authocratic state. Have a look at the PACE laws and what they allow the cops to do. Originally by: Xen Gin Of course, if they really were out to get you, everybody and every newborn would have a sub dermal tacking and monitoring implant. That would greet you when you got to a shop and automatically open the door. That has already started, in various forms, partly voluntary in factories, partly enforced via tags for suspected terrorists. If they make national ID cards... and make me pay for them... I will puke in the face of the police they send to my door and leave the country. I mean seriously.... wtf... why would you actively pay taxes AND pay for your civil rights to be taken away.
kor anon Amarr The Tuskers	Posted - 2009.01.02 12:29:00 - [51] It seems the general consensus of the brtish is to get out as soon as possible, even my immediate family is thinking of emmigrating to australia. Personally, im going to stay and going to try and change things, with everythin going down the pan, its only a matter of time before people lash out. I want to be there to pick up the pieces.
Nuala Reece Caldari Starlancers	Posted - 2009.01.02 12:51:00 - [52] Originally by: TimMc Edited by: TimMc on 02/01/2009 12:04:58 Originally by: Poreuomai The UK is very slowling drifting into an authocratic state. Have a look at the PACE laws and what they allow the cops to do. Originally by: Xen Gin Of course, if they really were out to get you, everybody and every newborn would have a sub dermal tacking and monitoring implant. That would greet you when you got to a shop and automatically open the door. That has already started, in various forms, partly voluntary in factories, partly enforced via tags for suspected terrorists. If they make national ID cards... and make me pay for them... I will puke in the face of the police they send to my door and leave the country. I mean seriously.... wtf... why would you actively pay taxes AND pay for your civil rights to be taken away. Indeed - it was only last year, Xen Gin, that government ministers were seriously suggesting a near future where all newborns could have their DNA screened for anti-social and anti-authoritarian tendencies in order that those infants identified as potential risks could be given special educational programs to weed this out. Channel 4 News pointed out that a tendency to question and challenge authority is actually quite a useful trait for anyone planning on a life as, for eg, a journalist, scientist, politician, or a self-directing intelligent human being, so it was quite concerning that people in positions of power thought this was a reasonable idea.
Atnal	Posted - 2009.01.02 14:35:00 - [53] Go to China and protest against their their gov't and go to US and protest against their gov't and let's see who lasts longer. Enough said.
Xen Gin Universal Mining Inc Forged Dominion	Posted - 2009.01.02 15:02:00 - [54] Originally by: Nuala Reece Indeed - it was only last year, Xen Gin, that government ministers were seriously suggesting a near future where all newborns could have their DNA screened for anti-social and anti-authoritarian tendencies in order that those infants identified as potential risks could be given special educational programs to weed this out. Channel 4 News pointed out that a tendency to question and challenge authority is actually quite a useful trait for anyone planning on a life as, for eg, a journalist, scientist, politician, or a self-directing intelligent human being, so it was quite concerning that people in positions of power thought this was a reasonable idea. The government research throws all sorts of crap about. You get white papers on this and that, then the media gets a sniff of something someone may have suggested, and then we're told it's happening next year, that MP's are voting on it. ------ Originally by: Rifter Drifter News just in.. Games are a pastime.. not a way of life. If your not enjoying, stop playing, and don't post about it.
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.02 15:20:00 - [55] Originally by: Atnal Go to China and protest against their their gov't and go to US and protest against their gov't and let's see who lasts longer. Enough said. You shouldn't wait for it to get as bad as China.
Nuala Reece Caldari Starlancers	Posted - 2009.01.02 15:23:00 - [56] Edited by: Nuala Reece on 02/01/2009 15:26:00 Originally by: Xen Gin The government research throws all sorts of crap about. You get white papers on this and that, then the media gets a sniff of something someone may have suggested, and then we're told it's happening next year, that MP's are voting on it. Well, C4 News picked up on it, not as a report of something that was about to happen, but as an issue of the current mindset of the government towards the people it's meant to be serving. That senior government ministers were comfortable putting the idea forward at all (see the OP's linked video at 46:24) could be taken to say a lot about their desire for control and the kind of things they'd be happy to implement to maintain it. The notion that our government feels justified in talking about a desire to have this kind of ability to assume guilt before there's even a crime is a little disturbing to say the least.
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.02 15:28:00 - [57] Originally by: Nuala Reece Edited by: Nuala Reece on 02/01/2009 15:26:00 Originally by: Xen Gin The government research throws all sorts of crap about. You get white papers on this and that, then the media gets a sniff of something someone may have suggested, and then we're told it's happening next year, that MP's are voting on it. Well, C4 News picked up on it, not as a report of something that was about to happen, but as an issue of the current mindset of the government towards the people it's meant to be serving. That senior government ministers were comfortable putting the idea forward at all (see the OP's linked video at 46:24) could be taken to say a lot about their desire for control and the kind of things they'd be happy to implement to maintain it. The notion that our government feels justified in talking about a desire to have this kind of ability to assume guilt before there's even a crime is a little disturbing to say the least. This. The government serves the people.
Poreuomai Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.02 17:24:00 - [58] Edited by: Poreuomai on 02/01/2009 17:23:59 Originally by: Atnal Go to China and protest against their their gov't and go to US and protest against their gov't and let's see who lasts longer. Enough said. Protesting against the governemt of china is not always that easy in the UK either: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/734667.stm *Let My People Go*
Haldane IV Einstein's Dreams	Posted - 2009.01.02 23:54:00 - [59] Well, watching that cheered me up (sarcasm). IÆm not really so sure things are in practice that much different to what they have always been, ôbehind the scenesö; the big difference now is that over the past 50 years a lot more people have had the means to be more vocal about these things û e.g. making films like this, publicising them on the internet etc. Thomas Jeffereson doesnÆt have a monopoly on libertarian quotes. This is what Lord Hoffman said when in 2004 the House of Lords held the Act the Government relied upon in the Bellmarsh detainment case (which the 2005 Terrorism Act ôcorrectedö) would not be upheld in that case, and I still vividly remember reading the Judgements on that The Times devoted a whole page to and thinking at the time (naively maybe) that at least one Judge had principals:- "The real threat to the life of the nation, in the sense of a people living in accordance with its traditional laws and political values, comes not from terrorism but from laws such as these. That is the true measure of what terrorism may achieve. It is for Parliament to decide whether to give the terrorists such a victory."
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.03 00:27:00 - [60] Originally by: Poreuomai Edited by: Poreuomai on 02/01/2009 17:23:59 Originally by: Atnal Go to China and protest against their their gov't and go to US and protest against their gov't and let's see who lasts longer. Enough said. Protesting against the governemt of china is not always that easy in the UK either: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/734667.stm They should arrest the police officers responsible imo... what better way for them to be scared off being heavy handed again?

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