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Traderjoh
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Posted - 2009.01.03 23:58:00 -
[1]
Well I have Minmatar and Amarr BS to 5 and I'm rather close to fly marauders so I had a quick look on EFT.
My first surprise was when I was trying to fit tachys on the paladin vs fitting 1400mm on the Vargur.
The Vargur definatly doesn't like t2 artys and even tho it's a shield boat there isn't franky much room left for damage mods and the cap usage looks horrible. The Paladins cap looks far better.
I am a bit cheap tho and am only looking at t2 fittings atm (I want a marauder to make isk not to spend isk on  atm atleast)
After a more or less quick look I couldn't find any arty vargur setups or find out if a pulse paladin would be better.
As it stands now I favour a mega beam paladin over a vargur with whatever guns.
Any ideas on how to simply fit each of the two and why I should favour such a setup up and basically what ship to go for.
One last note on how I noramly do my missions, I favour non perma tank setups and rely on my ability to kill off the incomming dps quick enough normally useing my armor as a buffer which is slowly giving way. I never really shield tanked in missions befor but my shield and armor skills are equally high/maxed out.
PS: I've not looked into rigs yet to increase tank, grid or cap as this really is defined by the actually setup in the end
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yrknat
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Posted - 2009.01.04 00:03:00 -
[2]
Against angels AC vargur is alright. Unimpressive against any other npc. Train Paladin, or just fly nightmare.
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wheeeee
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Posted - 2009.01.04 00:19:00 -
[3]
The nightmare gives me a hardon but I'd need caldari BS skills for it sadly.
Any clue if I should go pulse or beam on the Paladin?
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arbiter reformed
Minmatar
Darkstorm Command
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.01.04 00:24:00 -
[4]
vargur is just really really cool looking, guess it depends who you do missions for, ac's with barrage ftw
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TimMc
Gallente
Brutal Deliverance
OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.04 00:38:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: wheeeee
The nightmare gives me a hardon but I'd need caldari BS skills for it sadly.
Any clue if I should go pulse or beam on the Paladin?
For every person who says beam, there seems to be another who says pulse.
Advantage of beam is massive damage from good range. Pulse means you can fit an AB, and better tracking at close range. Beam setups usually have the web instead for when they get close.
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Grek Forto
Truth And Rage
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Posted - 2009.01.04 02:22:00 -
[6]
Originally by: arbiter reformed
vargur is just really really cool looking, guess it depends who you do missions for, ac's with barrage ftw
The Paladin is even more "good looking".
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Rainhailer
Gallente
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.01.04 18:22:00 -
[7]
The Paladin is very effective versus all types of NPCs except Angels.
Even then, it is faster and tanks them better than my CNR.
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Leandro Salazar
Better Dead Then Smeg
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Posted - 2009.01.04 22:10:00 -
[8]
Originally by: TimMc
Originally by: wheeeee
The nightmare gives me a hardon but I'd need caldari BS skills for it sadly.
Any clue if I should go pulse or beam on the Paladin?
For every person who says beam, there seems to be another who says pulse.
Advantage of beam is massive damage from good range. Pulse means you can fit an AB, and better tracking at close range. Beam setups usually have the web instead for when they get close.
Both pulse and beams tbh. Most missions you will want beams for the better ranged damage (though tachys > megabeams, I use 2+2 personally since I don't want fitting mods), but some like Damsel are pwnt by pulses. With scorch you can get some decent range out of pulses too, but thats just 44 base damage from your crystal compared to 55.2 from navy MF, so in the end dps is less than that from beams. Not to mention that instapopping power of Tachys...
And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
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Sila Fang
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.01.04 22:16:00 -
[9]
for gods sake,
WHY DOES EVERYONE WANT TO USE ARTIES ON A BOAT WITH A FALLOFF BONUS?
every other minmatar ship with a falloff bonus is used with ACs, and the vargur is deigned as an AC ship.
With falloff rigs, you have a falloff of 60km, which is huge. If you run some graphs, at standard tracking and distance a vargur can outdmage a pally.
don't call if a ship crap if you are not doing it right.
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FT Diomedes
Gallente
Ductus Exemplo
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Posted - 2009.01.04 22:23:00 -
[10]
I have found the Paladin to be amazingly effective with Tachyons. My Vargur is an excellent ship, whether I fit it with T2 ACs or RF 1200mms.
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Improvize. Adapt. Overcome. |
Leandro Salazar
Better Dead Then Smeg
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Posted - 2009.01.05 11:32:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Sila Fang
With falloff rigs, you have a falloff of 60km, which is huge. If you run some graphs, at standard tracking and distance a vargur can outdmage a pally.
Vargur with 800mm-IIs @ repfleet EMP and 3 faction gyros does 851 dps with all lvl5. Pally with 2* Tachy-II and 2* Megabeam-II @ ANMF does 881 dps. Standard tracking and distance for missions is around 30-40 km and transversal low enough that my Tachys hit with every shot. And EMP ammo loses a lot of raw dps to the silly damage type mix. So no, a Vargur does not outdamage a Paladin under standard conditions.
Only when stuff gets under 15 km it will (and if you are in a position to use hail, it will seriously so), which should not happen much unless you run for Minmatar, in which case the Vargur blows the Paladin out of the water anyway due to damage types.
Still, Vargur is not as bad as it is made out to be, but it DOES fall a bit short of the other Marauders. It can do both short and long(ish) range decently, but Paladin beats it at long range, and Golem beats it at close range. Jack of all trades, master of non. And those types always have it rough in EVE.
And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
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Ruffles
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Posted - 2009.01.05 12:06:00 -
[12]
Vargur is pretty hard to fit out with arties at a resonable price. To get a fit often involves using very expensive products like Republic Fleet/Domination items, not cheap and easy T2 solutions like you will fit on most caldeasy ships. I'm pretty sure I remember completely T2'ing a Golem on the test server, whilst struggling like anything to get a viable T2 Vargur that would do any sufficient damage to warrant replacing a T2 maelstrom with.
The problem with this comparison you are making is that the Paladin is pretty much limited to EM and Thermal damage output, making it very weak against targets whose weakness is more Kinetic or Explosive. The advantage with the Vargur is the wider choice of damage types with the ammunition, but in this case comes with a pretty high price in terms of items required to make even a semi-sufficient 1200mm artie loadout.
I would run tests on the test-server if you can, or do the maths if you are good with it. 
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Jessica Fyers
Gallente
Azure Horizon
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Posted - 2009.01.05 12:17:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Jessica Fyers on 05/01/2009 12:24:02
Originally by: Sila Fang
for gods sake,
WHY DOES EVERYONE WANT TO USE ARTIES ON A BOAT WITH A FALLOFF BONUS?
every other minmatar ship with a falloff bonus is used with ACs, and the vargur is deigned as an AC ship.
With falloff rigs, you have a falloff of 60km, which is huge. If you run some graphs, at standard tracking and distance a vargur can outdmage a pally.
don't call if a ship crap if you are not doing it right.
What the lady said! I fly a Vargur and i havent even thought about fitting artilleries, which - needless to say, whould take up valuable moduule/ rig slots just for fitting stuff 
I got 4x 800mm t2 ACs, and for tank dual Pithi A-type small boosters and 2x t2 inv fields, along with a single boost amp and a webber. This is complemented by a Damage Control II, a Tracking Enhancer II and 3x t2 gyros. ACs hit out to 40km thanks to the ship bonus and the 2 fallof rigs i've fitted. Runs missions exceptionally fast. And i find that projectile ammo is right after missiles and drones in terms of damage selection: fighting drones/ sanshas? use EMP; fighting angels? use Fusion; Blood Raiders/ Amarr/ Mercs? Phased Plasma; Serps/ Guristas/ Caldari? Titanium Sabot is your friend!
And no, the argument that you kite them with the achy-Paladin from great distance is not good: you fly a marauder coz you want to salvage on the go, meaning you start shooting when they get to the 40km mark, otherwise fly an Abaddon/ Nightmare.
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Some people say you should fight fire with fire... Nonsense of course; you should fight everything with fire! |
Leandro Salazar
Better Dead Then Smeg
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Posted - 2009.01.05 13:36:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Jessica Fyers
And no, the argument that you kite them with the achy-Paladin from great distance is not good: you fly a marauder coz you want to salvage on the go, meaning you start shooting when they get to the 40km mark, otherwise fly an Abaddon/ Nightmare.
Well many people fly a marauder because they wanna make wreck balls and then salvage in Hurricane after the mission, but same difference. But at 40km a Pally still outdamages a Vargur by a decent margin, and often you want to nail the small fries that are not so salvageworthy in the first place while they are still as far out as possible. And then you don't need to buy and carry 637K shots of expensive faction ammo for a Pally. And you cannot use officer guns coz you need to be able to use barrage for very long orbiting ships.
Again, Vargur is not BAD, but it does fall some ways short of the Paladin and Golem.
And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
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baltec1
R.U.S.T.
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.05 15:32:00 -
[15]
Im wondering which is the better out of the nightmare or a paladin.
The nightmare I know is fantastic but can the pilgrim be just as good at tanking and firepower?
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Pry Maraai
Amarr
Unknown but Ancient
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Posted - 2009.01.05 15:40:00 -
[16]
Originally by: baltec1
The nightmare I know is fantastic but can the pilgrim be just as good at tanking and firepower?
The nightmare will out tank the pilgrim any day, but the pilgrim can warp cloaked... 
Originally by: baltec1
Im wondering which is the better out of the nightmare or a paladin.
The nightmare is a little more effective at just killing npcs. The Paladin is a lot more effective at killing and looting/salvaging at the same time. Both can tank any mission without any problems.
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Emily Spankratchet
Minmatar
Pragmatics
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Posted - 2009.01.05 15:47:00 -
[17]
Originally by: TimMc
Advantage of beam is massive damage from good range. Pulse means you can fit an AB, and better tracking at close range. Beam setups usually have the web instead for when they get close.
I mostly use beams. Pulse are good, but a lot of Blood BS rats orbit at 50km, and that means using Scorch (not that this is necessarily a problem). I can still fit an AB with my beam fit (4xTachy II, 3xTractor, 2xCap recharger II, AB II, Domi web, Amarr Navy large rep, 3xHards, CPRII, 2xAN HS; adjust tank/HS balance to fit mission), and this perma-runs with my skills and implants.
Tracking can be a problem, but with good skills I don't have a problem with most cruiser rats. Some that orbit at 15-20km are a bit of a pain - although I have a Domi web fitted, it still doesn't reach them and I'm not prepared to pay for an officer web. Against NPCs that tracking disrupt it gets worse, so I have light and medium drones.
On the Nightmare vs. Paladin question, Nightmare wins for DPS. But Paladin wins for looting/salvaging. It depends what floats your boat.
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Nice Devil
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.05 16:32:00 -
[18]
\O hello guys
nice discussion here. if you run against sanshas / bloodraiders or thing that aren't equal to angels the paladin is the better choice! some would say the nightmare is the way you have to go for missions but it is the same ship as the paladin with a shield tank and tracking bonus
=> fit a tracking computer and you will have apromimately the same trackingbonus on the paladin without geting into trouble with your cap!
don't fit mega beams on the paladin => tachyon will go very well! fit amarr navy if you have cap probs! yeah you will see that you haven't got enough Powergrid for t2 tachyon / amarr navy tachyon => use the PG8 imp and they will fit :)
the damage is awesome on range... remember that the pulse lasers have a good tracking but can't hit on long range with good dps like tachyons => yeah there are Scorch L... but they are expensive
If I would be able to fly the paladin i would fit it like this
4x Amarr Navy Tachyons (Amarr Navy MF, Xray)
1x Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor (or Gallente if you can afford it)
1x Tracking Computer II (or faction)
2x Cap Recharger II
1x LAR II
3x ratspecific Hardener
3x Heat Sinks II (or faction)
2x Capacitor Control Circuit II
some ratspecific drones
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Aarin Wrath
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.01.05 17:10:00 -
[19]
Originally by: baltec1
Im wondering which is the better out of the nightmare or a paladin.
The nightmare I know is fantastic but can the pilgrim be just as good at tanking and firepower?
Kind of a derail, but whatever ...
Having had both a Paladin and a Nightmare (faction fit), I must say I like the Paladin better. The two ships are pretty much the same and as other have stated in other Nightmare vs. Paly threads it really comes down to personal preference and how much you salvage.
IMHO:
The nightmare is easier to fit, and the tracking bonus is nice. But ... the shield tank is a problem when going up against EM dealing rats.
The Paly is just as good tracking wise if you fit a tracking computer, and the tank is far superior due to the rep bonus and higher base EM resists). It makes salvaging a heck of allot easier. I find its a bit more cap stable as well.
But yeah when I hade both, they kinda felt like the same boat. The better tank and salvaging sold me on the paly however. YMMV of course.
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Jessica Fyers
Gallente
Azure Horizon
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Posted - 2009.01.05 17:14:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: Jessica Fyers
And no, the argument that you kite them with the achy-Paladin from great distance is not good: you fly a marauder coz you want to salvage on the go, meaning you start shooting when they get to the 40km mark, otherwise fly an Abaddon/ Nightmare.
Well many people fly a marauder because they wanna make wreck balls and then salvage in Hurricane after the mission, but same difference. But at 40km a Pally still outdamages a Vargur by a decent margin, and often you want to nail the small fries that are not so salvageworthy in the first place while they are still as far out as possible. And then you don't need to buy and carry 637K shots of expensive faction ammo for a Pally. And you cannot use officer guns coz you need to be able to use barrage for very long orbiting ships.
Again, Vargur is not BAD, but it does fall some ways short of the Paladin and Golem.
True, thats why when i know that there are going to be rats orbiting beyond 40-45km i just bring in the Maelstrom (tho tbh, i rarely get this, most notably with Core Admirals). And no, i dont use faction/ t2 ammo, i consider it more profitable to buy faction ammo and sell it than shoot it
----------------------------------------------
Some people say you should fight fire with fire... Nonsense of course; you should fight everything with fire! |
Aarin Wrath
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.01.05 17:19:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Traderjoh
Any ideas on how to simply fit each of the two and why I should favour such a setup up and basically what ship to go for.
<SNIP>
One last note on how I noramly do my missions, I favour non perma tank setups and rely on my ability to kill off the incomming dps quick enough normally useing my armor as a buffer which is slowly giving way. I never really shield tanked in missions befor but my shield and armor skills are equally high/maxed out.
From that last bit of your post, I would say the Paladin is probably what you are looking for. Specifically a T2-Tach based Paly with three heatsinks in the lows.
I have a three heatsink pally and its basically setup with the philosophy of "dead ships have 0 dps". i.e hit hard, hit fast, tank only if you have to.
Here is my setup: (might give you some ideas)
High:
4 x T2 Tachyons
2 x Tractor Beams
1 x Salvager
Medium:
1 x T2 Tracking Computer
1 x Target Painter
2 x Cap Recharger 2
Low:
1 x Faction LAR
3 x Rat Specific Hardeners
3 x T2 Heat Sink
Rig:
2 x CCC
Drones:
5 x medium
5 x light
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Nice Devil
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.05 17:58:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Aarin Wrath
Medium:
1 x T2 Tracking Computer
1 x Target Painter
2 x Cap Recharger 2
mhhh dunno right, always i asked some guys out there they never give me reason why i should fit a target painter. i thought that they will only increase the damage on ships that have a smaller signature than the signature of your weapon => especially missiles.
so no use for laser? am i right or not?
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Traderjoh
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Posted - 2009.01.05 18:07:00 -
[23]
@Sila
TBH I didn't take the falloff bonus into account for the vargur, thing with arties is just that I'm tired chasing rats that like to be 100km+ away from me at all times but then I use to mission with a pulse geddon.
I'm prolly going for a Pulse Paladin, not too worried about the limited damage type as I can naturally tank angels better so if it takes a bit longer that's not a big problem.
And let's face it the projectile ammo damage type versatility is more of a joke (granted less of a joke in missions but eve is more then just that)
Can a vargur tank good/long enough in the more dps heavy missions? Never flown a maelstrom as I like the pest or phoon more.
Derailing my own thread here how do you normally micromanage shield tanking, drop to 50%-ish and give single boosts with a buffer up to 30%-ish to manage cap befor it gets critical. And how viable are cap power relays or cap flux coils since one nerfs the shield boosting (bonus) and the other cap amount (projectiles don't use cap but minnie cap amount ain't that great)
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Traderjoh
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Posted - 2009.01.05 18:15:00 -
[24]
Painters basically give you a higher chance of hitting/getting a better hit then normal.
If a gun fires multiple times at a target you could draw it like a shotgun hit, some near the center some further off and some might miss. Instead of increasing the accuracy of your gun you increase the target so to speak (or you increase you accuracy by giving better info to your guns etc but that's a moot point in a game with dogey phisics )
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TheEndofTheWorld
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.01.05 18:23:00 -
[25]
vargur, fotms will get nerfed soon
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Aarin Wrath
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.01.05 19:26:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Nice Devil
mhhh dunno right, always i asked some guys out there they never give me reason why i should fit a target painter. i thought that they will only increase the damage on ships that have a smaller signature than the signature of your weapon => especially missiles.
so no use for laser? am i right or not?
Originally by: Traderjoh
Painters basically give you a higher chance of hitting/getting a better hit then normal.
If a gun fires multiple times at a target you could draw it like a shotgun hit, some near the center some further off and some might miss. Instead of increasing the accuracy of your gun you increase the target so to speak (or you increase you accuracy by giving better info to your guns etc but that's a moot point in a game with dogey phisics )
Yeah Traderjob has it right. Good analogy.
Although I would emphasize that a painted target (that is normally smaller than the guns signature radius) will take a harder hit from the weapon than if it was not painted.
So for example a Battlecruiser rat, which would normally have a hit damage reduction when shot at with battleship guns, will take more damage if not full damage.
I just love bieng able to 2 volley Sansha Battlecruisers in stead of 3-4 volleys. But yeah its not a required module by any means.
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Kurull Skullsplitter
Minmatar
Citizens of E.A.R.T.H.
E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2009.01.05 21:37:00 -
[27]
I've flown both ships in missions. IMO the Paladin is the better mission ship. |
Qui Shon
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Posted - 2009.01.05 22:48:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Qui Shon on 05/01/2009 22:52:27
Originally by: Aarin Wrath
The Paly is just as good tracking wise if you fit a tracking computer, and the tank is far superior due to the rep bonus and higher base EM resists).
Uhh, until you fit a TC to the Nightmare as well. Or a TC and one or two TE's.
And you can't fit Tachs, repper + Hwy cap booster (Unless you go cosmos but that lowers effectivity a bit) which means you will have far more cap problems in Pally then in Nightmare, where you can fit those items just fine.
Edit: Without fitting mods I mean, which is a little like wasting a slot for the most part.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2009.01.05 23:01:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Qui Shon on 05/01/2009 23:05:04
Originally by: Aarin Wrath
So for example a Battlecruiser rat, which would normally have a hit damage reduction when shot at with battleship guns, will take more damage if not full damage.
I just love bieng able to 2 volley Sansha Battlecruisers in stead of 3-4 volleys. But yeah its not a required module by any means.
As I understand it, with turrets there is no damage reduction per se, just a reduction in hit chance, which does affect hit quality, i.e. damage, as well. BUT, if transversal is already very low, i.e. hit chance without painter is very good, such as when the BC is approaching and not yet close to it's orbit range, the painter will have a negligeable effect.
You use Pulse? If I'm not one volleying all BC's with tachs I get very annoyed. Which is another hit against using a painter on smaller targets. Painters have a duration of 10 seconds, Tachs less then 7 seconds with 3 BCUs. When all smaller targets except HAC's die from one volley or less, down to one round from a single gun for most frigs, you only get to use your painter on a fraction of your targets, and so most of it's potential is wasted. A TC affects all your targets, and works at all ranges too, benefitting either range or tracking as you choose.
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Nice Devil
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.06 07:46:00 -
[30]
first, ty for the information about the TP for turret ships :)
=> in my apoc i hit cruiser very well on ranges 20km+ also with tachs (tracking computer is fitted)
=> the only problem are the cruiser / hacs that orbit my apoc on less then 20km
=> there the stasis web (gallente one with 14km range) on the pala would help :)
Originally by: Qui Shon
Edited by: Qui Shon on 05/01/2009 22:52:27
Originally by: Aarin Wrath
The Paly is just as good tracking wise if you fit a tracking computer, and the tank is far superior due to the rep bonus and higher base EM resists).
Uhh, until you fit a TC to the Nightmare as well. Or a TC and one or two TE's.
And you can't fit Tachs, repper + Hwy cap booster (Unless you go cosmos but that lowers effectivity a bit) which means you will have far more cap problems in Pally then in Nightmare, where you can fit those items just fine.
Edit: Without fitting mods I mean, which is a little like wasting a slot for the most part.
i played around in EFT with the nightmare... it is an awesome ship, sure. but i can't get it realy capstable also with the expensive shield booster Gist X-Type X-Large... and i need at least one cap recharger II in the meds... there is no space for a tracking comp on the nightmare imho
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