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Jacob Mei
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Posted - 2009.01.04 19:27:00 -
[1]
Has anyone noticed that the subject of Slavery seems to almost be a staple of many if not all scifi stories? Be it story, show (or movie) or game, at some point the subject of the subjugation of another race in part or in whole is brought up and seems to be a long established practice in the universe that story is taking place in. Just to name a few:
Star trek (nearly every spin off has their version of this)
Star wars (as seen on tatttoine)
Firefly (this was at least talked about in one of the episodes and the context of the conversation implied that slave labor was common practice for terraforming operations)
Eve Online (The minmatar)
I could go on but you get the idea. In short has there ever been a serious debate over why slavery seems to be a staple in most scifi?
-------------------------------- To borrow a phrase:
Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
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kor anon
Amarr The Tuskers
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Posted - 2009.01.04 19:28:00 -
[2]
slavery is inevitable thats why
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Shanzem
Minmatar DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.04 19:30:00 -
[3]
As a minmatar I can confirm there is slavery in sci fi
Although the reason behind it?
I think its morals,
Good vs bad kind of thing? -------------------------------------------
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Dred 'Morte
New European Regiment R.U.R.
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Posted - 2009.01.04 19:40:00 -
[4]
Os perhaps we know that the difference between slavery and freedom, these being considerate opposites, is actually the amount of freedom. Thus, unless you are absolutly free, you are a slave. Since we don't like calling ourselves slaves, we picture extreme cases of lack of freedom, so that we can easily call them slaves, but not us.
Now im sounding like Shining.
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Arianhod
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Posted - 2009.01.04 19:43:00 -
[5]
Well, in popular culture the USA is the worst offender when it comes to slavery (even though it wasn't) and as sci-fi writers have no sense of scale most of the time they just pick up a local history book and apply new words.
"Pistols eh? Now that's Laser pistols!". "Bows and Arrows? Now that's Plasma Arrows!".
It's just writers taking contemporary views and reapplying them in a sci-fi setting.
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. Haruhiists - Supporting Linkification since 2008.
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Jacob Mei
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Posted - 2009.01.04 19:48:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Arianhod Well, in popular culture the USA is the worst offender when it comes to slavery (even though it wasn't) and as sci-fi writers have no sense of scale most of the time they just pick up a local history book and apply new words.
"Pistols eh? Now that's Laser pistols!". "Bows and Arrows? Now that's Plasma Arrows!".
It's just writers taking contemporary views and reapplying them in a sci-fi setting.
So you think its really just a retelling of past events instead of something else? -------------------------------- To borrow a phrase:
Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
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kor anon
Amarr The Tuskers
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Posted - 2009.01.04 19:50:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Jacob Mei
Originally by: Arianhod Well, in popular culture the USA is the worst offender when it comes to slavery (even though it wasn't) and as sci-fi writers have no sense of scale most of the time they just pick up a local history book and apply new words.
"Pistols eh? Now that's Laser pistols!". "Bows and Arrows? Now that's Plasma Arrows!".
It's just writers taking contemporary views and reapplying them in a sci-fi setting.
So you think its really just a retelling of past events instead of something else?
hell why not. History is alot like that, why shouldn't scifi?
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Arianhod
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Posted - 2009.01.04 19:54:00 -
[8]
Not all, but it has a fair chunk of it. And then other sci-fi writers thinking "hmm, I wonder if I did it like this....".
Sci-fi is used as a means to comment on contemporary culture indirectly (ie Battlestar Galactica) so it being used as a means to bring the past into perspective doesn't surprise me.
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. Haruhiists - Supporting Linkification since 2008.
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EnslaverOfMinmatar
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Posted - 2009.01.04 20:16:00 -
[9]
Has anyone noticed that the subject of Slavery seems to almost be a staple of many if not all history books? Be it a thin book, a thick book (a very thick book)or a not so thick book, at some point the subject of the subjugation of another race in part or in whole is brought up and seems to be a long established practice in the country that history is taking place in. Just to name a few:
Egypt
Ancient Rome
Greece
USA
I could go on but you get the idea. In short has there ever been a serious debate over why slavery seems to be a staple in most history books? uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ ƃuıpɐǝɹ ǝɹɐ noʎ
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Arianhod
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Posted - 2009.01.04 20:16:00 -
[10]
Depends, where are you getting your history books from?
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. Haruhiists - Supporting Linkification since 2008.
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goodby4u
Valor Inc.
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Posted - 2009.01.04 20:26:00 -
[11]
Edited by: goodby4u on 04/01/2009 20:26:59 Its an easy way to get the viewers to watch and say"oh wait, thats the bad guy!"
I mean how can you possibly have an evil evil badguy if hes against slavery?
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kor anon
Amarr The Tuskers
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Posted - 2009.01.04 20:30:00 -
[12]
Originally by: EnslaverOfMinmatar Has anyone noticed that the subject of Slavery seems to almost be a staple of many if not all history books? Be it a thin book, a thick book (a very thick book)or a not so thick book, at some point the subject of the subjugation of another race in part or in whole is brought up and seems to be a long established practice in the country that history is taking place in. Just to name a few:
Egypt
Ancient Rome
Greece
USA
I could go on but you get the idea. In short has there ever been a serious debate over why slavery seems to be a staple in most history books?
because its just another sub topic to dicuss. + you must read some pretty broad topic history books to see slavery all the time
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Arianhod
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Posted - 2009.01.04 20:30:00 -
[13]
Originally by: goodby4u Edited by: goodby4u on 04/01/2009 20:26:59 Its an easy way to get the viewers to watch and say"oh wait, thats the bad guy!"
I mean how can you possibly have an evil evil badguy if hes against slavery?
This approach didn't really pan out in Doctor Who - the good guys had slaves.
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. Haruhiists - Supporting Linkification since 2008.
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goodby4u
Valor Inc.
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Posted - 2009.01.04 20:35:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Arianhod
Originally by: goodby4u Edited by: goodby4u on 04/01/2009 20:26:59 Its an easy way to get the viewers to watch and say"oh wait, thats the bad guy!"
I mean how can you possibly have an evil evil badguy if hes against slavery?
This approach didn't really pan out in Doctor Who - the good guys had slaves.
The planet of ood. Is just one of the ones where the badguys had slaves, which goodguys are you talking about who had slaves?
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kor anon
Amarr The Tuskers
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Posted - 2009.01.04 20:37:00 -
[15]
Originally by: goodby4u
Originally by: Arianhod
Originally by: goodby4u Edited by: goodby4u on 04/01/2009 20:26:59 Its an easy way to get the viewers to watch and say"oh wait, thats the bad guy!"
I mean how can you possibly have an evil evil badguy if hes against slavery?
This approach didn't really pan out in Doctor Who - the good guys had slaves.
The planet of ood. Is just one of the ones where the badguys had slaves, which goodguys are you talking about who had slaves?
maybe hes talking about the satan pit episodes (by far the best Dr who episodes in the last 4 series)
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Arianhod
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Posted - 2009.01.04 20:38:00 -
[16]
Originally by: goodby4u
Originally by: Arianhod
Originally by: goodby4u Edited by: goodby4u on 04/01/2009 20:26:59 Its an easy way to get the viewers to watch and say"oh wait, thats the bad guy!"
I mean how can you possibly have an evil evil badguy if hes against slavery?
This approach didn't really pan out in Doctor Who - the good guys had slaves.
The planet of ood. Is just one of the ones where the badguys had slaves, which goodguys are you talking about who had slaves?
Oh they went back and addressed that? I couldn't stand Donna in the newest series so missed a few, my apologies I take that back
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. Haruhiists - Supporting Linkification since 2008.
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Davina Braben
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Posted - 2009.01.04 21:54:00 -
[17]
Quote: I could go on but you get the idea. In short has there ever been a serious debate over why slavery seems to be a staple in most scifi?
If it features human beings it's probably not that odd a thing to include (along with all our other greatest hits).
Why wouldn't it be in there?
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2009.01.04 22:56:00 -
[18]
Sex slaves, 'nough said.
Football? Hell yes. |
Shanzem
Minmatar DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.04 22:59:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Sakura Nihil Sex slaves, 'nough said.
Pretty much -------------------------------------------
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vostok
Minmatar Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.01.04 23:06:00 -
[20]
Originally by: goodby4u Edited by: goodby4u on 04/01/2009 20:26:59 Its an easy way to get the viewers to watch and say"oh wait, thats the bad guy!"
I mean how can you possibly have an evil evil badguy if hes against slavery?
Because good and bad are a perspective
Slavery isn't such a bad thing imo.
From some perspectives we are all slaves, for example, to money, to media, to fashions...
Just because it's not so obvious doesn't mean you're not trapped by it.
Also, I felt I needed to throw this in. - Adaptation is not an excuse for lack of ballance! -
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goodby4u
Valor Inc.
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Posted - 2009.01.05 00:13:00 -
[21]
Originally by: vostok
Originally by: goodby4u Edited by: goodby4u on 04/01/2009 20:26:59 Its an easy way to get the viewers to watch and say"oh wait, thats the bad guy!"
I mean how can you possibly have an evil evil badguy if hes against slavery?
Because good and bad are a perspective
Slavery isn't such a bad thing imo.
From some perspectives we are all slaves, for example, to money, to media, to fashions...
Just because it's not so obvious doesn't mean you're not trapped by it.
Also, I felt I needed to throw this in.
Well in our economies money means more freedom, and in America, you can quite easily go from nothing to everything and thus its not exactly slavery.
On the other hand slavery, while your fed and clothed and taken care of, you lack freedom and thus its seen as evil... I am sure you can make slavery free and base an economy on it but that hasnt been done yet and thus everybody sees it as an evil which is why all the bad guys are doin it in scifi.
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vostok
Minmatar Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.01.05 00:31:00 -
[22]
Originally by: goodby4u
Well in our economies money means more freedom, and in America, you can quite easily go from nothing to everything and thus its not exactly slavery.
On the other hand slavery, while your fed and clothed and taken care of, you lack freedom and thus its seen as evil... I am sure you can make slavery free and base an economy on it but that hasnt been done yet and thus everybody sees it as an evil which is why all the bad guys are doin it in scifi.
When you say not exactly slavery, I can't help but feel its somewhat of an illusion.
Freedom, in my mind does not exist. To me freedom means actions without consequences and I do believe america still has a legal system.
Anyway, ignoring that, since its fairly irealavent.
Lets assume the main body of the population is the slaves. If you let the people in the population decide what they want to do as their job the result is that you end up with all of the work done and none of the issues of slaves like rebellion and uprisings.
In my opinion slavery is fairly unavoidable since people will always need some for of hierarchy to function in society.
The only real difference is that now we pay the lower classes a minimum wage and give them the illusion of freedom.
But then again, I'm a little drunk, so this may have come out a bit wrong.
I guess my point is, slavery, no matter how evil you perceive it to be in your own mind, can, under some circumstances, work out beneficial to everybody. - Adaptation is not an excuse for lack of ballance! -
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2009.01.05 00:40:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Dred 'Morte Os perhaps we know that the difference between slavery and freedom, these being considerate opposites, is actually the amount of freedom. Thus, unless you are absolutly free, you are a slave. Since we don't like calling ourselves slaves, we picture extreme cases of lack of freedom, so that we can easily call them slaves, but not us.
Now im sounding like Shining.
The only way to have absolute freedom is to be omnipotent, thus a god (and either alone in the universe or the only one with free will. After all a competing will interferes with the total freedom). It can't simply be the removal of all rules and moral restrictions, because then you're a slave to necessity (the complete anarchic system, where the freedom of everyone else means that your actions are dictated, to the exclusion of all other considerations, by the need to provide security for yourself. Which means that you have no freedom of action at all).
In any case it's a flawed argument (false definition, kind of like saying that "abortion is the senseless murder of innocent children" to take a textbook example). The use of Coercion doesn't automatically qualify something as slavery, and if it did it would render the word slavery in itself empty of meaning. ______________________________________________ -My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn. |
goodby4u
Valor Inc.
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Posted - 2009.01.05 00:51:00 -
[24]
Originally by: vostok
Originally by: goodby4u
Well in our economies money means more freedom, and in America, you can quite easily go from nothing to everything and thus its not exactly slavery.
On the other hand slavery, while your fed and clothed and taken care of, you lack freedom and thus its seen as evil... I am sure you can make slavery free and base an economy on it but that hasnt been done yet and thus everybody sees it as an evil which is why all the bad guys are doin it in scifi.
When you say not exactly slavery, I can't help but feel its somewhat of an illusion.
Freedom, in my mind does not exist. To me freedom means actions without consequences and I do believe america still has a legal system.
Anyway, ignoring that, since its fairly irealavent.
Lets assume the main body of the population is the slaves. If you let the people in the population decide what they want to do as their job the result is that you end up with all of the work done and none of the issues of slaves like rebellion and uprisings.
In my opinion slavery is fairly unavoidable since people will always need some for of hierarchy to function in society.
The only real difference is that now we pay the lower classes a minimum wage and give them the illusion of freedom.
But then again, I'm a little drunk, so this may have come out a bit wrong.
I guess my point is, slavery, no matter how evil you perceive it to be in your own mind, can, under some circumstances, work out beneficial to everybody.
"Slavery is the systematic exploitation of labour".
Another words, your exploited to do as your leaders see fit, thus no freedom.
What your attempting to explain is a currency free society, which isnt slavery, not in the slightest.... But in our currency filled society the people at the bottom of the hierarchy atleast had a chance to avoid the bottom of the hierarchy whereas if your a slave(by definition)your forced into your circumstance.
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Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.01.05 07:03:00 -
[25]
Define slavery.
We are slaves to the clock that tells us when to sleep and when to wake and what time to arrive. We are slaves to the whim of our bosses at work. We are slaves to our government.
Freedom in society is an illusion, the only true freedom would be on a desert island with all the food resources nearby to allow you to live. You simply need to reach out and pick your food as you want it. Having to hunt for it would be a slave to your stomach
-- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar MasterBlasters Inc. CORPVS DELICTI
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Posted - 2009.01.05 07:21:00 -
[26]
We're all slaves here ---------------------- Putting the sensual in nonconsensual |
goodby4u
Valor Inc.
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Posted - 2009.01.05 07:29:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Dantes Revenge Define slavery.
We are slaves to the clock that tells us when to sleep and when to wake and what time to arrive. We are slaves to the whim of our bosses at work. We are slaves to our government.
Freedom in society is an illusion, the only true freedom would be on a desert island with all the food resources nearby to allow you to live. You simply need to reach out and pick your food as you want it. Having to hunt for it would be a slave to your stomach
But that is truely avoiding the origional reason behind the post, your going into the theoretical slavery stuff whereas in scifi the badguys use slavery(as defined above your post)to show the viewer that is the bad guy of the story.
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Dred 'Morte
New European Regiment R.U.R.
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Posted - 2009.01.05 12:35:00 -
[28]
A free person is a person who is able to do whatever it wants (within its means) as long as it does not infringe on the right to freedom (and propierty) of another person. For any person not to have that freedom, someone else must be controlling her, therefore, original person is a slave. A slave is someone that is controlled (and therefore owned) by another person - it can be argued there are levels of freedom and slavery.
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kor anon
Amarr The Tuskers
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Posted - 2009.01.05 12:45:00 -
[29]
Edited by: kor anon on 05/01/2009 12:45:51
Originally by: Dred 'Morte A free person is a person who is able to do whatever it wants (within its means) as long as it does not infringe on the right to freedom (and propierty) of another person. For any person not to have that freedom, someone else must be controlling her, therefore, original person is a slave. A slave is someone that is controlled (and therefore owned) by another person - it can be argued there are levels of freedom and slavery.
I disagree, i personally think freedom is the ability to say/think/do whatever you want without repurcussion, while slavery is every action/thought/word dictated by another being.
Imagine a spectrum:
freedom-----------------------------------------------------------------------slavery Uk is about 30/ 70 on the scale there
I don't think we deserve total freedom nor slavery, and i think its important to find the right balance. Maybe 60 / 40 on the scale there. Tbh i dont think there are any definates in this universe, just one grey blob. This is like trying to sort out the right balance between individual rights and the collective.
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vostok
Minmatar Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.01.05 13:23:00 -
[30]
Originally by: goodby4u
"Slavery is the systematic exploitation of labour".
Another words, your exploited to do as your leaders see fit, thus no freedom.
What your attempting to explain is a currency free society, which isnt slavery, not in the slightest.... But in our currency filled society the people at the bottom of the hierarchy atleast had a chance to avoid the bottom of the hierarchy whereas if your a slave(by definition)your forced into your circumstance.
You fail at opinions.
I gave you a decent answer, which was that by some perspectives we are all slaves anyway and since hierarchy is an integral part of most societies the bottom rung could easily be slaves.
Another take on it could be that America is constantly banging on about how important freedom is and thus is makes sense for American media to portray the bad guys as people who rob people of freedom and the good guys as people who restore their freedom.
But what you seem to be failing to grasp is that freedom is a point of view, its not confined to your limited contexts. In all honesty, we are restricted by our imaginations to the limits of freedom, what we define as freedom is only relative to another's freedom.
And back to the point of slavery, yes to a certain extent, you can choose your path in life, but ultimately, the vast majority of the population will only ever make completely insignificant choices, but hell we could go a long way on insignificance.
The bottom line is, slavery has been an integral part in almost every great empire in the world so to me its fairly obvious why scifi writers would use it.
- Adaptation is not an excuse for lack of ballance! -
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