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Rutoo
Gallente Interstellar eXodus
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Posted - 2009.01.06 19:55:00 -
[1]
I'm thinking we need this skill added to the game.
Jammers have skills that increase their jamming ability. Why is there not a skill that increases your ships sensor strength also?
Most Falcons can perma-jam anything that has a Sensor Strength lower than 14. And while there is Backup Arrays and ECCM's.
Even a small bonus of 10% per level would be enough.
_________________________________________________________ My Second EvE Video Club Seals Not Sandwichs
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Hesperius
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Posted - 2009.01.06 20:02:00 -
[2]
No. Think of the effects for every ship in the game of what you are suggesting and see if you would stand by your original post.
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Rutoo
Gallente Interstellar eXodus
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Posted - 2009.01.06 20:43:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Hesperius No. Think of the effects for every ship in the game of what you are suggesting and see if you would stand by your original post.
Ummmm I think I already did that, Yes, it would make every ship in game a little more stronger and less able to jam.
Maybe read and understand the post before you jump ahead _________________________________________________________ My Second EvE Video Club Seals Not Sandwichs
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Hesperius
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Posted - 2009.01.06 20:52:00 -
[4]
I did read it, even enough to notice you are not using complete sentences. Did you do the math? There are plenty of counters to ECM out there, sometimes things take a little bit of intelligence with the person sitting at the computer. I like how there are things in this game you need some IQ for and can't just toss SP at.
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Rutoo
Gallente Interstellar eXodus
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Posted - 2009.01.06 21:00:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Hesperius I did read it, even enough to notice you are not using complete sentences. Did you do the math? There are plenty of counters to ECM out there, sometimes things take a little bit of intelligence with the person sitting at the computer. I like how there are things in this game you need some IQ for and can't just toss SP at.
Yes,
Figures a Caldari Pilot would be against something that decreases their ability to jam. I did read, I have played way longer than you and understand the game alot more. Theres skills that enhance almost everything in the game except that.
Yes - There is counter measures to use, however, like the module used to jam, there are skills to increase it's effectiveness. There are skills to increase speed, agility, turrets, module fittings. Why is there not a skill that increases sensor strength?
As well- theres no need for you to be totally rude about the itea, I've spoken to other people about this as well and they think it's a great idea - _________________________________________________________ My Second EvE Video Club Seals Not Sandwichs
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Straight Chillen
Gallente Solar Wind
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Posted - 2009.01.06 21:05:00 -
[6]
The OP indeed has merit.
Ignore the falcon alt whiner.
There is skills to counter RSD, that increase scan res (signal acq.) and targeting range (long range targetting).
As well as skills that counter Tracking disrupters, that increase tracking (motion prediction) and optimal range (sharp shooter)
So it makes perfect sense that there should be some sort of skill that can increase the sensor strength of your ship. Tho I feel 10% maybe a little bit too much, I will leave it to CCP to figure out the right balanced numbers. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Rutoo
Gallente Interstellar eXodus
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Posted - 2009.01.06 21:11:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Hesperius Did you do the math?
And yes, I did the Math.
Most Falcons have a Jamming Strength of 13.5 Which means they can jam HACs - 100% of the time, fitting a backup Array reduces that to 80% and a ECCM to about 60% However - how many people 'actually' fit these. Unless you know your going up against jamming.
Having a skill that increases that by 10% per level (or even 7.5%) does give that little bit of bonus, but not as good as the modules . _________________________________________________________ My Second EvE Video Club Seals Not Sandwichs
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Hesperius
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Posted - 2009.01.06 21:52:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Rutoo I did read, I have played way longer than you and understand the game alot more.
I would probably find it fascinating to know how you know what I know and don't know and how you compared the two to know that you know more about the game than I do. Maybe try not to have your back up quite so much. If I thought your idea was a dead end I would have passed this thread up.
Really I think a possible 50% bonus to battleships and capital ships is a bit much. I would prefer alternatives that would make PVP more interesting and not just toss SP at everything in the game.
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d3vo
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Posted - 2009.01.06 21:57:00 -
[9]
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=964479
Exactly what I'm saying... __________ \(^.^)/ |
Hesperius
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Posted - 2009.01.06 22:07:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Hesperius on 06/01/2009 22:07:58
Originally by: d3vo This may be redundant but still... There is no skill to increase ship sensor strength, yet there is a skill to increase ECM jamming strength. Every other type of E-War has a counter skill. -Sensor Dampening can be countered with training Long Range Targeting and Signature Analysis. -Tracking Disruption can be countered with training up Motion Prediction and Sharp Shooter.
I could be totally wrong here but I do not think that those skills were implemented as counters to ewar. Even if they were, comparing one thing to another does not equal game balance.
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shamai
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Posted - 2009.01.06 22:07:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Rutoo
Originally by: Hesperius Did you do the math?
And yes, I did the Math.
Most Falcons have a Jamming Strength of 13.5 Which means they can jam HACs - 100% of the time, fitting a backup Array reduces that to 80% and a ECCM to about 60% However - how many people 'actually' fit these. Unless you know your going up against jamming.
Having a skill that increases that by 10% per level (or even 7.5%) does give that little bit of bonus, but not as good as the modules .
Clearly you did not do the math. Achieving 100% jam is actually mathmatically impossible, and that jamming strength is based on using racials (not very versatile, and if you know your targets race, they probably know to fit eccm). Talk about overcooking the facts man.
While i can appreciate the idea having some merit on its own (your observation is indeed correct about the lack of skill) maybe you should have just asked for the nerfing of falcons...
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Rutoo
Gallente Interstellar eXodus
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Posted - 2009.01.06 22:48:00 -
[12]
Originally by: shamai
Clearly you did not do the math. Achieving 100% jam is actually mathmatically impossible, and that jamming strength is based on using racials (not very versatile, and if you know your targets race, they probably know to fit eccm). Talk about overcooking the facts man.
While I man be "overcooking the facts" we all should know that almost every falcon/Scorp fleet setup has at least 1 of each racial.
As for the Math - Look for yourself lets use these stats as base (since because i fly mostly Minmatar) Claw - 8 Ladar Vaga - 14 Ladar Tempest - 19 Ladar
And lets say the the Scorpion has a jamming racial strength of 10. (again most falcons are 13.5)+
The forumla for jamming is C = J/S * 100% Where J is the jamming strength of your jammer, S the sensor strength of the target ship and C the jamming chance in %. Claw - 125% jammed (perma jammed) Vaga - 71% jammed Tempest - 52%
_________________________________________________________ My Second EvE Video Club Seals Not Sandwichs
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shamai
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Posted - 2009.01.06 23:10:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Rutoo
Originally by: shamai
Clearly you did not do the math. Achieving 100% jam is actually mathmatically impossible, and that jamming strength is based on using racials (not very versatile, and if you know your targets race, they probably know to fit eccm). Talk about overcooking the facts man.
While I man be "overcooking the facts" we all should know that almost every falcon/Scorp fleet setup has at least 1 of each racial.
As for the Math - Look for yourself lets use these stats as base (since because i fly mostly Minmatar) Claw - 8 Ladar Vaga - 14 Ladar Tempest - 19 Ladar
And lets say the the Scorpion has a jamming racial strength of 10. (again most falcons are 13.5)+
The forumla for jamming is C = J/S * 100% Where J is the jamming strength of your jammer, S the sensor strength of the target ship and C the jamming chance in %. Claw - 125% jammed (perma jammed) Vaga - 71% jammed Tempest - 52%
No they all dont, thats where your wrong. A general pvp fit "might" include a full rack of racials + one hypnos, but then your kinda screwed if you dont get the jam as the others aint going to offer you much in the way of choice. Also note that limits you to one target of each race...not exactly good in most situations. Personally I fly with 5 multis mostly, and just accept the fact that I need to use more than one jammer most of the time. If im faction fighting I will fit racials, but its normally very limited. Also note that fitting racials increases the difficulty in targetting and engaging speed for the player, we only have a few seconds to get a jam off else we 1) are toast or 2) are jammed/damped to hell and then toasted.
As for your careful choice of ships. Yeah an interceptor/frigate can be perma jammed with a racial and maybe a well skilled pilot using a multi. Thats it. Anything else that has a sensor stregth over (your numbers here) 13.5 (8-9 to the rest of us) cannot be 100%. Also note that the interceptor COULD fit an ECCM to counter that very real threat and reduce the chance from that magic number.
But thats every persons blind spot that hates ECM, they refuse to fit ECCM and then complain about it. I might support the addition of a skill that boosts ECCM modules even if it just got people using the damned things.
Problem is they are already pretty effective.
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Hesperius
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Posted - 2009.01.07 00:04:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Rutoo Ummmm I think I already did that, Yes, it would make every ship in game a little more stronger and less able to jam.
Maybe read and understand the post before you jump ahead
Ok I took your equation and plugged a couple more ships into it.
Thanatos = 18% Hyperion = 58% Falcon = 48%
Thanatos + ECCM = 9% Hyperion + ECCM = 30% Falcon + ECCM = 24%
Thanatos + ECCM + level 5 sensor bonus = 6% chance Hyperion + ECCM + level 5 sensor bonus = 20% chance Falcon + ECCM + level 5 sensor bonus = 16% chance
You really stand by those figures?
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Rutoo
Gallente Interstellar eXodus
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Posted - 2009.01.07 00:22:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Hesperius
Originally by: Rutoo Ummmm I think I already did that, Yes, it would make every ship in game a little more stronger and less able to jam.
Maybe read and understand the post before you jump ahead
Ok I took your equation and plugged a couple more ships into it.
Thanatos = 18% Hyperion = 58% Falcon = 48%
Thanatos + ECCM = 9% Hyperion + ECCM = 30% Falcon + ECCM = 24%
Thanatos + ECCM + level 5 sensor bonus = 6% chance Hyperion + ECCM + level 5 sensor bonus = 20% chance Falcon + ECCM + level 5 sensor bonus = 16% chance
You really stand by those figures?
Yes.
_________________________________________________________ My Second EvE Video Club Seals Not Sandwichs
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Hesperius
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Posted - 2009.01.07 00:35:00 -
[16]
Well I personally think that would not be a good direction for Eve to go. We will see if you get what you are asking for.
Thumbs down
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ScienceOfficer Aracelli
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Posted - 2009.01.07 01:51:00 -
[17]
maybe a 3% or 5% bonus per level would be a a decent boost 10% way to much.
think maybe the better thing would be a 5% per level reduction in effected time.
to explain that you are better skilled with sencors so you can better adjust your ships scaners to find a way to quickly regian controle
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Nicoli Voldkif
Caelli-Merced INC. Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2009.01.07 02:45:00 -
[18]
Problem with the idea is that it becomes a "Must Train" skill... Those are bad. Its like the original warp to 0 idea was a skill that ended up just being one more thing for people to "must" train. For that reason alone as a Base skill to add to sensor strength I consider it a Extremely bad idea, a skill to boost the effectiveness of ECCm That I could see work.
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Letifer Deus
A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.01.07 02:49:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 07/01/2009 02:57:13
Originally by: Hesperius
Ok I took your equation and plugged a couple more ships into it.
...
You really stand by those figures?
Most of the falcons that run in the gangs I am in run 2 multispecs 4 racials and 3 amps in the lows. Assuming 1 multispec and 1 racial on target that's ~23.5 jam strength. Redo the math with that.
PS: I agree that it should affect ECCMs not the base sensor strength, at least not at +10% per level. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
shamai
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Posted - 2009.01.07 11:16:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 07/01/2009 03:15:42
Originally by: Hesperius
Ok I took your equation and plugged a couple more ships into it.
...
You really stand by those figures?
Most of the falcons that run in the gangs I am in run 2 multispecs 4 racials and 3 amps in the lows. Assuming 1 multispec and 1 racial on target that's ~23.5 jam strength. Redo the math with that.
Personally I would like to see ECCM boosted by 25% and a +5% sensor strength skill added.
Or (and this is a distant second for me) ECCM boosted by 15% and a skill put in that improves ECCM effectiveness by 7.5% per level.
Using multiple jammers is not calculated by adding all the strengths together.
Read this to better understand it
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shamai
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Posted - 2009.01.07 11:20:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 07/01/2009 03:15:42
Originally by: Hesperius
Ok I took your equation and plugged a couple more ships into it.
...
You really stand by those figures?
Most of the falcons that run in the gangs I am in run 2 multispecs 4 racials and 3 amps in the lows. Assuming 1 multispec and 1 racial on target that's ~23.5 jam strength. Redo the math with that.
Personally I would like to see ECCM boosted by 25% and a +5% sensor strength skill added.
Or (and this is a distant second for me) ECCM boosted by 15% and a skill put in that improves ECCM effectiveness by 7.5% per level.
So basically, whatever way you figure it, ECM needs halving in stregth....a good way to remove ECM from the game, since nobody would bother with such **** odds
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Rutoo
Gallente Interstellar eXodus
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Posted - 2009.01.07 15:28:00 -
[22]
Originally by: ScienceOfficer Aracelli maybe a 3% or 5% bonus per level would be a a decent boost 10% way to much.
think maybe the better thing would be a 5% per level reduction in effected time.
to explain that you are better skilled with sencors so you can better adjust your ships scaners to find a way to quickly regian controle
Agree - After looking into it more - even a 3% would be good enough for a skill, or 5% to counter the effects of Signal Dispersion skill, as for length that should be an idea to look at also.
Hesperius - A skill is a bad direction to go? We've already established that your a Caldari Jammer, hence what you say is biased already.
Nicoli Voldkif - As for a 'must train' skill I partially agree. The thing about EVE is also choice, Possible making a Prerequisite Electronics Warfare 5 and others
_________________________________________________________ My Second EvE Video Club Seals Not Sandwichs
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shamai
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Posted - 2009.01.07 15:53:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Rutoo
Originally by: ScienceOfficer Aracelli maybe a 3% or 5% bonus per level would be a a decent boost 10% way to much.
think maybe the better thing would be a 5% per level reduction in effected time.
to explain that you are better skilled with sencors so you can better adjust your ships scaners to find a way to quickly regian controle
Agree - After looking into it more - even a 3% would be good enough for a skill, or 5% to counter the effects of Signal Dispersion skill, as for length that should be an idea to look at also.
Hesperius - A skill is a bad direction to go? We've already established that your a Caldari Jammer, hence what you say is biased already.
Nicoli Voldkif - As for a 'must train' skill I partially agree. The thing about EVE is also choice, Possible making a Prerequisite Electronics Warfare 5 and others
Newsflash!
Everyones opinion in this game is biased.
The ECM pilot does not want to see his ship nerfed into uselessness, and the non ECCM pilot wants just that.
Yes im a falcon pilot, and ofc my opinion is biased.
/endrant
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