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Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1116
|
Posted - 2012.04.16 21:12:00 -
[31] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:Yeah - HACs need some love - however everyone flying a ship above anything else is not a sign of something working properly, it's a sign of something being overpowered, too easily accessible etc... If Tengus make up 60% of the entire T3 population (according to CCP), there's something wrong.
The Tengu not only outclasses its supposedly 'more specialized' T2 Cruiser counterparts (not sure about the Falcon - never flew one as that is against my e-honoure), it also vastly outshines T2 Battlecruisers (ok - bad example - CS could need some love too), and even T2 Battleships (Tengu pretty much replaced Golems as a carebear vessel which used to be really popular a couple of years ago).
Years ago, new pilots rushed for their races BSs to make some money - now they all rush for the Tengu.
This is the main reason why I can't agree with people stating Tengu is overpowered, just because there's not a single valid reference to confirm it. We know all other T3's are in need of buffs, but it's so much easy to say Tengu is overpowered rather than point out to CCP what they are doing wrong that makes SOME setups be ridiculously effective.
Assault ships that should be the dps reference for T3's are such a joke, unbalanced, ridiculous to fly/fit and that is a fact. Sure some are less than others and some we could almost say they're good. As long as assault ships are the joke they are and completely unbalanced to each other no one on it's right mind and objectively can say Tengu is overpowered because of so many factors exterior to the ship it self, just like HAM's or HM being ridiculous ammo and mechanics behind those.
Being able to fit oversized modules it's not a problem for everyone until some guy fly a 3Billion setup Tengu with 1k dps and 5000m/s -of course with an off grid boost, implants and boosters etc., does this means the ship is overpowered? For me just means CCP failed to do the right thing and limit size modules like they did to rigs, suddenly your 5k/s is not that overpowered.
I can continue but I'm very sure you understand right now my point of view what's wrong with Tengu and what it can make it look like an overpowered tool needing all skills level 5 (including specs) to get the quintessence from it.
Now I'm still waiting to see someone post 1k dps and 5k/s T2 Tengu fit using med size mods and I guess I'll wait for a long time because it's just impossible. What some players fail to understand is that many mechanics in eve are from primordial age, are full of exploitable bugs some smart players use to their benefit and without a clean base we can't just spit "this" is op and "that" is not. We can only talk about roles and what we could expect from those, once again Tiers system head shots latin.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1539
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Posted - 2012.04.16 21:19:00 -
[32] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:Will not even waste time on trying because if an officer dead space fit Tengu seems normal a Cerberus on the other hand would look "lol fit". You are EFT warrior enough to know exactly what I meant but you want to play with words, so go ahead I'm done with words games.
I do care on the other hand that my T2 fitted Cerberus does more dps than my T2 fitted Tengu: op success
My Proteus can go above 1k dps but not my Deimos, so is my Proteus also in need of nerf bat?
My Loki does better dps than my vaga, so also needs the nerfbat, right?
Now I'd really like to see that T2 1K Tengu dps fit.
Getting that kind of DPS out of a Tengu isn't that hard, and for a long time it was considered the "standard" mission Tengu fit. It obviously isn't officer fit.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1116
|
Posted - 2012.04.16 21:39:00 -
[33] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Tanya Powers wrote:Will not even waste time on trying because if an officer dead space fit Tengu seems normal a Cerberus on the other hand would look "lol fit". You are EFT warrior enough to know exactly what I meant but you want to play with words, so go ahead I'm done with words games.
I do care on the other hand that my T2 fitted Cerberus does more dps than my T2 fitted Tengu: op success
My Proteus can go above 1k dps but not my Deimos, so is my Proteus also in need of nerf bat?
My Loki does better dps than my vaga, so also needs the nerfbat, right?
Now I'd really like to see that T2 1K Tengu dps fit.
Getting that kind of DPS out of a Tengu isn't that hard, and for a long time it was considered the "standard" mission Tengu fit. It obviously isn't officer fit. -Liang
Well I consider my self not having "bad" skills at all for Tengu since I maxed those from the beginning with one of my toons so I can surely state that it's just impossible to get 1K dps from a T2 Tengu fit.
What I can get out of it with a T2 fit and sacrificing some isk for a better tank, is an 850+/- dps from 0 to 113km (lacking lvl5 in spec HM), using rof, dmg and speed implants (+5) and a very specific fit needing a good bunch of lvl5 skills, even a single one of fitting skills at 4 and it's just impossible.
The regular guy starting his Tengu after the 45D myth is just spiting 450+/- dps, it's almost impossible to fit or with a lot of isk in faction/dead space modules and no matter the battleship will chew lvl4's faster than this Tengu guy.
Once again, the ship is not overpowered. It's a combination of exploited fail mechanics, one of the best weapon systems in the game and a very wise ship design with a regular subs combination.
If I could hit at 113km with my rails to full dmg, never miss wile Ab'n with my pimp dead space/officer 100AB at over 3.5km I'm very sure everyone would also ask "NERF PROTEUS SILLY CCP", same for other weapon systems.
So, if I put a T2 Tengu fit close to a Cerberus T2 fit with same skills I'll be trading some little dps difference (not important from my point of view) for a far distance of engagement with my Cerberus, distance being so important for survivability.
I keep thinking that Tengu is not overpowered, CCP must change some game mechanics, adjust some dps formulas, change some ships slots/bonus and subs bonus and EvEn then, a weapon system able to apply full dmg at 0 or full distance will always be unbalanced.
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Matrix Operator
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
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Posted - 2012.04.16 21:42:00 -
[34] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:Being able to fit oversized modules it's not a problem for everyone until some guy fly a 3Billion setup Tengu with 1k dps and 5000m/s -of course with an off grid boost, implants and boosters etc., does this means the ship is overpowered? For me just means CCP failed to do the right thing and limit size modules like they did to rigs, suddenly your 5k/s is not that overpowered.
This is another potential solution as well. Perhaps preventing cruisers from equipping 100MN Abs in addition to the changes I wrote above will be enough to bring things back into balance for T3s. |
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
50
|
Posted - 2012.04.16 21:45:00 -
[35] - Quote
Katalci wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:Bienator II wrote:Tengu is fine. The other T3s should be adjusted to match the standard it sets. There. All fixed up for ya, bru. Also this Also this |
BearJews
Android Arms And Industrial Corporation Tenth Legion
32
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Posted - 2012.04.16 21:50:00 -
[36] - Quote
I like oversized props, i think it adds a fun element to the game. I'd rather see versatility matched with the other t3s. Personally im fine with how they are seeing as each t3 is extremely good at something. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1116
|
Posted - 2012.04.16 21:54:00 -
[37] - Quote
Matrix Operator wrote:Tanya Powers wrote:Being able to fit oversized modules it's not a problem for everyone until some guy fly a 3Billion setup Tengu with 1k dps and 5000m/s -of course with an off grid boost, implants and boosters etc., does this means the ship is overpowered? For me just means CCP failed to do the right thing and limit size modules like they did to rigs, suddenly your 5k/s is not that overpowered. This is another potential solution as well. Perhaps preventing cruisers from equipping 100MN Abs in addition to the changes I wrote above will be enough to bring things back into balance for T3s.
That should make sense to everyone.
Just like it should make sense to everyone starting from CCP that not matter the mechanics/formulas for weapons/ammo, at the end of a time limit all weapon systems should get the same result.
Why am I able to do full dmg at 113km with my heavy missiles and I can barely scratch an elephants ass at 70+with my 250's ? Why put defaults in a ship when it's clearly other mechanics that are failing?
Then you have threads and rivers of tears because some silly dudes can't read properly English and think Drake is going to get a nerf bat ... half of those are asking for a Tengu nerf.
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Teras Lakkos
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES 24eme Legion Etrangere
32
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Posted - 2012.04.16 22:08:00 -
[38] - Quote
BUFF ALL THE LEGIONS.
On a serious note fix my legion please. |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
1265
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Posted - 2012.04.16 22:36:00 -
[39] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote: This is the main reason why I can't agree with people stating Tengu is overpowered, just because there's not a single valid reference to confirm it. We know all other T3's are in need of buffs, but it's so much easy to say Tengu is overpowered rather than point out to CCP what they are doing wrong that makes SOME setups be ridiculously effective.
Assault ships that should be the dps reference for T3's are such a joke, unbalanced, ridiculous to fly/fit and that is a fact. Sure some are less than others and some we could almost say they're good. As long as assault ships are the joke they are and completely unbalanced to each other no one on it's right mind and objectively can say Tengu is overpowered because of so many factors exterior to the ship it self, just like HAM's or HM being ridiculous ammo and mechanics behind those.
I agree on heavy missiles and HACs being poorly balanced - especially vs BCs and yes - maybe a HM rework could do the trick.
All T3s need some rebalancing and after HACs have been buffed, T3 subsystems that are plainly unused need to be looked at just as well as subsystems that enable a T3 to fill the same role as a T2 - just better. CCP developed t3s and all the possible uses and fits could impossibly have been foreseen - can't really blame them for that - however I blame them for taking ages to reiterate. However, they should gear more towards the other T3s considering their overall strength (and that is coming from someone who can fly all T3s maxed except the Tengu).
100 mn AB Tengus could easily be fixed, however I'm actually more concerned with the Tengus PvE capabilities as ridiculous as that may sound.
It drives new pilots down a certain path which is also a bit of a blind alley as for most purposes, there is nothing close to train for after flying a maxed tengu.
So for starting PvP, they'll all fly Drakes because they either flew it at some point or have the necessary skills because they trained them for a Tengu. I wouldn't even consider it as being overpowered - it's more the skill-issue portrayed above coupled with the fact that you could easily train a monkey to fly one in a blob - doesn't even have to be a chimp - a gibbon would do.
Anyway - I'm straying off more than this thread deserves to... You know... morons. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1539
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Posted - 2012.04.16 22:41:00 -
[40] - Quote
Matrix Operator wrote:Tanya Powers wrote:Being able to fit oversized modules it's not a problem for everyone until some guy fly a 3Billion setup Tengu with 1k dps and 5000m/s -of course with an off grid boost, implants and boosters etc., does this means the ship is overpowered? For me just means CCP failed to do the right thing and limit size modules like they did to rigs, suddenly your 5k/s is not that overpowered. This is another potential solution as well. Perhaps preventing cruisers from equipping 100MN Abs in addition to the changes I wrote above will be enough to bring things back into balance for T3s.
100mn ABs have literally nothing to do with why the Tengu is so popular. And in PVP, they're not that big of a deal.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Matrix Operator
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
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Posted - 2012.04.16 22:44:00 -
[41] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:100mn ABs have literally nothing to do with why the Tengu is so popular. And in PVP, they're not that big of a deal.
-Liang
I'm just brain storming. Do you have any ideas? |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1539
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Posted - 2012.04.16 23:09:00 -
[42] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote: Well I consider my self not having "bad" skills at all for Tengu since I maxed those from the beginning with one of my toons so I can surely state that it's just impossible to get 1K dps from a T2 Tengu fit. ...
A few comments: - You keep obsessing over whether a Cerb outdamages a T2 fit Tengu. Why? Nobody T2 fits their Tengus, and nobody even flies the Cerb. The Tengu utterly and completely obsoletes the Cerb, even if the Drake doesn't quite (yet). It boggles my mind that you would assert people not being able to outdamage the Tengu in a Cerb have a skill or fitting issue. - The problem with the Tengu is that it so thoroughly obsoletes the entire Caldari lineup: Drake, Cerb, Nighthawk, Raven, CNR*, and Golem*. It is eminently reasonable and cost effective to get a 1K DPS HAM Tengu - and that discounts the much more common HML fits. - You say that the Cerb trades "some little DPS", but how much is that DPS? From everything I see, its close to 50%... that's not "a little". - There's a lot of talk about HML being OP. I don't care too much, but I think people should pay more attention to how easy it is to almost totally mitigate HML DPS. The Tengu (and missile ships in general) do not always apply full DPS, or even close to it. Just because the missiles hit doesn't mean that they don't have damage application issues ("tracking issues"). - The SP investment involved with making anything else in the Caldari lineup get even remotely close to the Tengu is ... well, a huge hurdle to cross. Cruise/Torps 5, Spec 4, BS5, etc. The guy talking about 45 days may or may not be right in his argument, but he's certainly right in the spirit of it. - You keep harping about 100mn ABs like that's what makes the Tengu "all that". It really isn't. The 100mn AB Tengu is a strong ship, but its very catchable and very killable. It should not surprise anyone that a dual gang boosted pirate implanted deadspace fit Tengu is hard to kill solo - especially if you aren't prepared to pin something like that down. There are ships that can "solo kill" a 100mn Tengu, provided they have similar pimpage and boosters.
* In PVE its not as much as it might sound like, but those ships require WAY more SP. In PVP, its trivially true.
-Liang
PS: I have 3 Tengu pilots and a bunch of Tengus. Its not like I hate the ship.
Ed: BTW, the Legion could use some Love and the Tengu could use some toning down. Not a lot though, and hopefully not before the Cerb and Nighthawk get their respective issues fixed. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1539
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Posted - 2012.04.16 23:10:00 -
[43] - Quote
Matrix Operator wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:100mn ABs have literally nothing to do with why the Tengu is so popular. And in PVP, they're not that big of a deal.
-Liang I'm just brain storming. Do you have any ideas?
Yes, see my last post. Or are you asking for ways to counter 3B ISK Tengus? Because yes, I do in fact have ideas for that. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Jack Miton
Lapse Of Sanity Exhale.
182
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Posted - 2012.04.16 23:19:00 -
[44] - Quote
TBH, most of the "OMG IT'S OP!!!" issues with the tengu are due to shield extenders, shield boosters and shield RR having much much less PG fitting requirements to the armour counterparts. Still, I hardly think it's broken. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1117
|
Posted - 2012.04.16 23:39:00 -
[45] - Quote
Isk is not a balance factor witch invalidates directly 3Billion isk 1K dps 5km/s fits.
T2 fitted Tengu is not overpowered, point blank. Other T3's are in need of a big take-a-look-at so they become as effective as Tengu and then we will not listen whatever about it any more, everyone will be able to shoot between 45 and 113km short and long range, speed tank and kick ass dozens forum thread pages |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1540
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Posted - 2012.04.16 23:42:00 -
[46] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:Isk is not a balance factor witch invalidates directly 3Billion isk 1K dps 5km/s fits.
T2 fitted Tengu is not overpowered, point blank.
Your logic doesn't hold water. Just because "ISK isn't a factor" doesn't mean that the 3B ISK Tengus aren't OP. Furthermore, faction damage mods and T2 rigs are the standard of the day in PVE ships - there's literally nothing exciting or interesting or unexpected about it. Stop denying it just because its "expensive".
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Matrix Operator
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
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Posted - 2012.04.16 23:47:00 -
[47] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Yes, see my last post. Or are you asking for ways to counter 3B ISK Tengus? Because yes, I do in fact have ideas for that. :)
-Liang
Good points, but those weren't really ideas. Just observations. Got any ideas in the sense of specific solutions? |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1117
|
Posted - 2012.04.16 23:51:00 -
[48] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Tanya Powers wrote:Isk is not a balance factor witch invalidates directly 3Billion isk 1K dps 5km/s fits.
T2 fitted Tengu is not overpowered, point blank. Just because "ISK isn't a factor" doesn't mean that the 3B ISK Tengus aren't OP. Furthermore, faction damage mods and T2 rigs are the standard of the day in PVE ships - there's literally nothing exciting or interesting or unexpected about it. Stop denying it just because its "expensive". -Liang
We're not talking about a specific fit Tengu, everyone talk about (all) Tengu being OP, I'm clarifying correctly that only a few setups are above what we could consider as "normal".
As for the standard of fitting, once again I don't agree with you because standard means T2 and once again you just can't talk about standard to set the base of discussion then add faction and dead space mods to validate your point of view because it just doesn't stick right.
Now I can tell you, on the other hand, that a faction/officer fitted Cynabal is far overpowered than Tengu. No one seems to fly those a lot or complain about |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
674
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Posted - 2012.04.17 00:06:00 -
[49] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:Bienator II wrote:Tengu is fine. The other T3s should be adjusted to match the standard it sets. There. All fixed up for ya, bru.
the good thing is this won't happen. even when you change quotes from others a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1541
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Posted - 2012.04.17 00:21:00 -
[50] - Quote
Matrix Operator wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Yes, see my last post. Or are you asking for ways to counter 3B ISK Tengus? Because yes, I do in fact have ideas for that. :)
-Liang Good points, but those weren't really ideas. Just observations. Got any ideas in the sense of specific solutions?
I'd say nothing should really happen before the Cerb, Nighthawk, Eagle, and certain other HAC/CSs are adjusted (upwards). From there, I think it'll be more obvious what needs to happen. If I had to guess, the answer would be lowering fittings a bit and maybe switching the ROF bonus for a slightly weaker omni damage bonus.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1541
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Posted - 2012.04.17 00:27:00 -
[51] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote: We're not talking about a specific fit Tengu, everyone talk about (all) Tengu being OP, I'm clarifying correctly that only a few setups are above what we could consider as "normal".
The standard Tengu fits (expensive or not) are quite powerful by any standard. And no, I don't consider the 3B ISK 100mn AB fits to be a standard fit. Most of them are much cheaper and those can be solo killed pretty easily.
Quote: As for the standard of fitting, once again I don't agree with you because standard means T2 and once again you just can't talk about standard to set the base of discussion then add faction and dead space mods to validate your point of view because it just doesn't stick right.
Standard fits are based around how and where they're actually used. Its unreasonable to talk about deadspace fit Hurricanes, but its very reasonable to talk about deadspace fitted Machs and Bhaals. Ships as expensive as the Tengu are commonly faction fit - so I think you're doing a disservice if you avoid talking about them that way.
Notably, when someone makes a claim about a 3B ISK double gang boosted Tengu being OP, its perfectly legit to bring up other ships with 3B ISK and double gang boosts as viable counters - at least in a PVP setting.
Quote:Now I can tell you, on the other hand, that a faction/officer fitted Cynabal is far overpowered than Tengu. No one seems to fly those a lot or complain about
Its true, the Cynabal is pretty ridiculous. I have to admit that the Vigilant is the one that catches my eye though. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Teras Lakkos
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES 24eme Legion Etrangere
32
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Posted - 2012.04.17 01:33:00 -
[52] - Quote
Came in to bask in legion buffing glory
Left disappointed |
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
34
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Posted - 2012.04.17 01:33:00 -
[53] - Quote
It's a delicate issue. I'm very weary of power creep in MMOs and buffing everything else to match a higher standard is a step towards that direction. So the only reasonable solution seems to be nerfing the outliers. On the otherhand though, Tengu and Projectiles (another thing that many whine about being OP) are working very well, and it would be sad to see very functional ships/ weapon systems get nerfed to stone age. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1118
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Posted - 2012.04.17 01:43:00 -
[54] - Quote
Teras Lakkos wrote:Came in to bask in legion buffing glory
Left disappointed
Sorry.
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Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1118
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Posted - 2012.04.17 02:13:00 -
[55] - Quote
Pookoko wrote:It's a delicate issue. I'm very weary of power creep in MMOs and buffing everything else to match a higher standard is a step towards that direction. So the only reasonable solution seems to be nerfing the outliers. On the otherhand though, Tengu and Projectiles (another thing that many whine about being OP) are working very well, and it would be sad to see very functional ships/ weapon systems get nerfed to stone age.
While Tengu specific fits become clearly annoying to other players game experience because of some bad game mechanics, projectiles are just OP without any sort of gimp because it's the guns mechanics and ammo themselves that are the problem
I'll try to enumerate a few points why Tengu becomes annoying thx to bad game mechanics:
-100MN AB- PG requirements aren't the problem but the mod it self fitting size limitations, indeed if you try to fit a blaster or rails Tengu you figure out it lacks of PG Also, if you can't fit more than a 10MN AB suddenly the top speed goes down by a large margin. The issue is not the ship but mods
-Dead space shield mods having ridiculous light fitting requirements and ridiculous overpowered repair amount. A single large a-type SB coupled with a cap injector and the result is an almost unbreakable tank until you are out of cap charges
-Faction launchers+ ammo: Launchers bring a very high rate of fire, don't need you to have specialisation skill Faction ammo is ridiculous, lower explosion radius than T2, higher velocity = +distance (coupled with ROF you have about the same DPS but lower fittings)
These are from my point of view the points that give Tengu the myth of "OP ship" when it's clearly a specific set up requiring huge amounts of isk for mods using stupid mechanics (lack of requirements/specialisation) and bonus (dead space shield mods are completely overpowered) Take these advantages away or rework them properly like missiles time flight and faction launchers ROF, size restriction fittings and shield/armor dead space balance. All the sudden Tengu will not look OP any more. |
Kenshin Tzestu
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2012.04.17 02:19:00 -
[56] - Quote
Here is to hoping that CCP fixes the legion (covert ops subsystem especially). Every other offensive subsystem is bonused to a weapon system, the legion gives a crappy cap use malus that serves no purpose for a covert ops ship who wants to have a short fight anyhow (and is pretty much always cap boosted).
Seems doubtful they will do anything however. |
Maxine Bellorum
Posthuman Society Enclave.
0
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Posted - 2012.04.17 04:39:00 -
[57] - Quote
For those of you that think that missiles are awesome, I'd like to have some of what you are smoking. As for the tengu, leave it the **** alone and where are you guys getting info that the proteus and legion are bad?
I can tell you that the legion's performance in pve matches that of a tengu and they both have their niches. Legion to incursions and tengu to whs. In pvp, HAM legion owns HAM tengu everyday, thanks in part to slaves and other distinguishing qualities. The legion with lazors is no slouch either when it comes down to mid range engagement and clearly has an immense advantage over the tengu when dealing with smaller targets (so don't give me that missiles always hit crap ).
The proteus on the other hand is a close range brawler. I know obvious stuff is obvious and it has its own niche. No t3 spews as much dps as this thing whilst sustaining an insane tank. Cloaky fits are very viable and still easily out tank the best buffer tengu fits you can find out there. It clearly isn't as good as the legion and tengu when it comes down to pve but I don't see a tengu beating a proteus at what it does best unless you are out played which is very possible.
The changes I'd be expecting to T3s are subsystem based and hopefully it'll shine light on some t3 subs that are fairly used atm. I'm also in full support of T3s performing significantly better than some T2s. No one is paying more isk for variety crap. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1541
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Posted - 2012.04.17 04:50:00 -
[58] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote: While Tengu specific fits become clearly annoying to other players game experience because of some bad game mechanics, projectiles are just OP without any sort of gimp because it's the guns mechanics and ammo themselves that are the problem
I'll try to enumerate a few points why Tengu becomes annoying thx to bad game mechanics:
-100MN AB- PG requirements aren't the problem but the mod it self fitting size limitations, indeed if you try to fit a blaster or rails Tengu you figure out it lacks of PG Also, if you can't fit more than a 10MN AB suddenly the top speed goes down by a large margin. The issue is not the ship but mods
-Dead space shield mods having ridiculous light fitting requirements and ridiculous overpowered repair amount. A single large a-type SB coupled with a cap injector and the result is an almost unbreakable tank until you are out of cap charges
-Faction launchers+ ammo: Launchers bring a very high rate of fire, don't need you to have specialisation skill Faction ammo is ridiculous, lower explosion radius than T2, higher velocity = +distance (coupled with ROF you have about the same DPS but lower fittings)
These are from my point of view the points that give Tengu the myth of "OP ship" when it's clearly a specific set up requiring huge amounts of isk for mods using stupid mechanics (lack of requirements/specialisation) and bonus (dead space shield mods are completely overpowered) Take these advantages away or rework them properly like missiles time flight and faction launchers ROF, size restriction fittings and shield/armor dead space balance. All the sudden Tengu will not look OP any more.
Comments: - I'd say anyone flying a Tengu with faction launchers is a scrub. T2 launchers give you the flexibility for Fury, which is important and outdamages anything faction launchers can do. Furthermore, they're significantly cheaper. - There's nothing wrong with oversized AB fits. The advantage is a bit better cap and that you can't be scrammed. The disadvantage is that you turn and accelerate like a super tanker and sacrifice a huge portion of your fittings space. Its cool that there's some variety in speed mods available, because "standard" AB fits just flat suck for all purposes (even PVE these days). I honestly don't see anything wrong here. - Deadspace shield mods are cool, but similar pimpage on the ship that's being shot means the Tengu will NEVER break its tank. There's nothing wrong with this mechanic.
At any rate, the biggest thing that makes the Tengu look OP is the fact its a 3B ISK dual gang boosted nano ship. "I didn't get to solo kill it with my T2 fit Hurricane when he brought a massively pimped hard counter to my ship!" QQ, QQ, QQ. :(
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Kaikka Carel
White syndicate BattleStar Alliance
30
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Posted - 2012.04.17 09:01:00 -
[59] - Quote
1. Covop system: +5% dmg per lvl
2. Liquid Crystal Magnifiers/Assault Optimisation: +drones - 25m3 band and 50m3 bay.
All what is needed for happyness. Oh, and Wake Limiter doesn't work. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
84
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Posted - 2012.04.17 14:29:00 -
[60] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Tanya Powers wrote:Isk is not a balance factor witch invalidates directly 3Billion isk 1K dps 5km/s fits.
T2 fitted Tengu is not overpowered, point blank. Your logic doesn't hold water. Just because "ISK isn't a factor" doesn't mean that the 3B ISK Tengus aren't OP. Furthermore, faction damage mods and T2 rigs are the standard of the day in PVE ships - there's literally nothing exciting or interesting or unexpected about it. Stop denying it just because its "expensive". -Liang spending 3 bil or more on dead space and officer mods and implants will give any ship in game a massive boost. The right combination of officer and dead space mods and implants can nearly double to DPS of almost any ship compared to fitting it with straight T2 mods.
For example it was possible to fit a dramel with the right faction/ded/officer mods combined with slave implants to get a top speed over 20km/s. You can still get it well over 10km/s. There is a video on you tube not only showing it going that fast but how to fit it as well. When the isk faucet is opened any ship can become overpowered compared to its T2 fit counterpart. And why shouldn't a ship worth several billion isk not be significantly more powerful than the same ship with a cheap T2 fit. |
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